How can scientists predict solar eclipses if their model of the earth is wrong?

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I’m not interested in debate. The major problem with the flat earth movement is that people believe it must be treated like a debate. I have zero interest in arguing, I have zero interest in changing consensus. I see it as a research topic. My motives in my research are purely selfish.


The Final Experiment is research. It is about gathering evidence.

Source: “Trust me bro”.

Observing that the sun is small and local is something almost anyone can do on a clear day.

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markjo

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It may just be that eclipse events have been observed to occur on a regular repeatable pattern.
Yes, and that regular repeatable pattern can be modeled quite nicely using a heliocentric model.

There was an eclipse recently. I didn’t see the moon 🌙.
Solar eclipses always happen during a new moon.  Have you ever seen a new moon?  That's a regular repeatable pattern too.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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markjo

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Observing that the sun is small and local is something almost anyone can do on a clear day.
True, but can almost anyone see the sun above the horizon for 24 hours in a row?
« Last Edit: November 24, 2024, 05:46:00 PM by markjo »
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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Torve

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Source: “Trust me bro”.

Observing that the sun is small and local is something almost anyone can do on a clear day.

And do you?

What kind of observations do you do in your research?

As you expect us all to be reliant and trusting of the “honour system”.

I don't know what you mean by this.

I mean, you’re trusting the source of the results beyond a shadow of the doubt. Meaning you refuse to consider the ulterior motives and/or incentives of the group and their affiliated organizations. You’re refusing the possibility of a deception when deception is a legitimate possibility.

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Torve

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I mean, you’re trusting the source of the results beyond a shadow of the doubt. Meaning you refuse to consider the ulterior motives and/or incentives of the group and their affiliated organizations. You’re refusing the possibility of a deception when deception is a legitimate possibility.

Reply to this post is here:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=92861.0



But to entertain your question. No, the midnight sun does not occur at the outer-reaches of the earth. The days are short, and get shorter the further south you travel. In the outer-reaches, the days are the shortest when the sun is over cancer and the longest when the sun is over Capricorn.



I thank you for your indulgence, you have done more than most in this forum. Respect.

It would be preferable however, if you answered all three questions directly in the thread indicated.

 24 hour sun does happen in the artic when the sun is close and over cancer. It does not happen in the outer-reaches (Antarctica). That’s the flat earth model.

There is no globe earth. The flat earth is observable by anyone who cares to look. However, to entertain you, if “the globe” tilted to align Capricorn with the sun then there would need to be a 24 hour sun in Antarctica.

If I had to guess, the Final Experiment will put forward result that suggest there’s a midnight sun in Antarctica. 
« Last Edit: November 24, 2024, 05:49:35 PM by OdinSkyBorn13 »



Source: “Trust me bro”.

Observing that the sun is small and local is something almost anyone can do on a clear day.

And do you?

What kind of observations do you do in your research?

Observing the sun is a good place to start.

Watch it’s size throughout the day. As the sun gets closer it’s size increases until the midday sun. Then, as the sun moves away, it’s size decreases.

Detecting changes in the suns size by the naked eye is only possible if the sun is small and local. This wouldn’t be possible with globe model.The distance the earth spins you away from the sun would be negligible in changing the perceived size of the sun considering the claimed distance of 93 million miles.

Observing that the sun is small and local is something almost anyone can do on a clear day.
True, but can almost anyone see the sun above the horizon for 24 hours in a row?

No, you’d need to travel to the most northern regions of the earth.

It may just be that eclipse events have been observed to occur on a regular repeatable pattern.
Yes, and that regular repeatable pattern can be modeled quite nicely using a heliocentric model.

There was an eclipse recently. I didn’t see the moon 🌙.
Solar eclipses always happen during a new moon.  Have you ever seen a new moon?  That's a regular repeatable pattern too.

There have been two eclipse events within the last ten years and I hadn’t seen a new moon either time. I looked directly at the eclipse and took pictures both times. 

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Torve

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Source: “Trust me bro”.

Observing that the sun is small and local is something almost anyone can do on a clear day.

And do you?

What kind of observations do you do in your research?

Observing the sun is a good place to start.

Watch it’s size throughout the day. As the sun gets closer it’s size increases until the midday sun. Then, as the sun moves away, it’s size decreases.

Detecting changes in the suns size by the naked eye is only possible if the sun is small and local. This wouldn’t be possible with globe model.The distance the earth spins you away from the sun would be negligible in changing the perceived size of the sun considering the claimed distance of 93 million miles.


That's very interesting.

Are you interested in performing an Eratosthenes experiment?



Source: “Trust me bro”.

Observing that the sun is small and local is something almost anyone can do on a clear day.

And do you?

What kind of observations do you do in your research?

Observing the sun is a good place to start.

Watch it’s size throughout the day. As the sun gets closer it’s size increases until the midday sun. Then, as the sun moves away, it’s size decreases.

Detecting changes in the suns size by the naked eye is only possible if the sun is small and local. This wouldn’t be possible with globe model.The distance the earth spins you away from the sun would be negligible in changing the perceived size of the sun considering the claimed distance of 93 million miles.


That's very interesting.

Are you interested in performing an Eratosthenes experiment?

What’s more interesting is observing the “sunset” from elevation over the Pacific Ocean. If the Sea is calm, and the sky is clear, you’ll notice the sun will not disappear beyond the horizon but rather shrinks in size above the horizon until it disappears.

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Torve

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What’s more interesting is observing the “sunset” from elevation over the Pacific Ocean. If the Sea is calm, and the sky is clear, you’ll notice the sun will not disappear beyond the horizon but rather shrinks in size above the horizon until it disappears.

And have you observed this happening?

PS. I hope you do not stare at the sun without protection.



What’s more interesting is observing the “sunset” from elevation over the Pacific Ocean. If the Sea is calm, and the sky is clear, you’ll notice the sun will not disappear beyond the horizon but rather shrinks in size above the horizon until it disappears.

And have you observed this happening?

PS. I hope you do not stare at the sun without protection.

Yes, You can observe this. Or you can observe the sun not rise but rather appear above the horizon from over the Atlantic. Put it on the bucket list.

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Torve

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Yes, You can observe this. Or you can observe the sun not rise but rather appear above the horizon from over the Atlantic. Put it on the bucket list.

The question was not whether I can do this.

The question was whether you have in fact actually done this yourself.



Yes, You can observe this. Or you can observe the sun not rise but rather appear above the horizon from over the Atlantic. Put it on the bucket list.

The question was not whether I can do this.

The question was whether you have in fact actually done this yourself.

I haven’t confirmed with my own photography. However, I have dug up enough videos. Actual, unbiased sources who are recording the sunrise/sunset as photography projects with no intentions of proving what they unknowingly proved. 

Go see.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2024, 06:56:57 PM by OdinSkyBorn13 »

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Torve

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I haven’t confirmed with my own photography. However, I have dug up enough videos. Actual, unbiased sources who are recording the the sunrise/sunset as photography projects with no intentions of proving what they unknowingly proved. 

Go see.

You’re trusting the source of the results beyond a shadow of the doubt. Meaning you refuse to consider the ulterior motives and/or incentives of the group and their affiliated organizations. You’re refusing the possibility of a deception when deception is a legitimate possibility



I haven’t confirmed with my own photography. However, I have dug up enough videos. Actual, unbiased sources who are recording the the sunrise/sunset as photography projects with no intentions of proving what they unknowingly proved. 

Go see.

You’re trusting the source of the results beyond a shadow of the doubt. Meaning you refuse to consider the ulterior motives and/or incentives of the group and their affiliated organizations. You’re refusing the possibility of a deception when deception is a legitimate possibility

Many multiples of people who are completely ignorant of flat earth posting Timelapse videos of the sunrise/sunset incidentally proving flat earth. In locations anyone may travel to and repeat the experiment.

That’s a long way off what you were advocating for.

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Torve

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Many multiples of people who are completely ignorant of flat earth posting Timelapse videos of the sunrise/sunset incidentally proving flat earth. In locations anyone may travel to and repeat the experiment.

That’s a long way off what you were advocating for.

Leaving that aside, what is the reason you have not observed this with your own eyes? All you need is a pair of sunglasses.



Many multiples of people who are completely ignorant of flat earth posting Timelapse videos of the sunrise/sunset incidentally proving flat earth. In locations anyone may travel to and repeat the experiment.

That’s a long way off what you were advocating for.

Leaving that aside, what is the reason you have not observed this with your own eyes? All you need is a pair of sunglasses.







Many multiples of people who are completely ignorant of flat earth posting Timelapse videos of the sunrise/sunset incidentally proving flat earth. In locations anyone may travel to and repeat the experiment.

That’s a long way off what you were advocating for.

Leaving that aside, what is the reason you have not observed this with your own eyes? All you need is a pair of sunglasses.




Many multiples of people who are completely ignorant of flat earth posting Timelapse videos of the sunrise/sunset incidentally proving flat earth. In locations anyone may travel to and repeat the experiment.

That’s a long way off what you were advocating for.

Leaving that aside, what is the reason you have not observed this with your own eyes? All you need is a pair of sunglasses.


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Torve

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Let's take the Caspian video. What are we seeing there?

Let's take the Caspian video. What are we seeing there?


I live with someone that believes in the globe, infinite vacuum of space, the moon landing etc. I don’t say a word to him. I have no interest in changing his mind.

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Torve

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Let's take the Caspian video. What are we seeing there?


I live with someone that believes in the globe, infinite vacuum of space, the moon landing etc. I don’t say a word to him. I have no interest in changing his mind.


What are we seeing in the Caspian video?

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markjo

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True, but can almost anyone see the sun above the horizon for 24 hours in a row?

No, you’d need to travel to the most northern regions of the earth.
Wouldn't you expect to see the same thing at the most southern regions of the earth, especially around this time of year.


Solar eclipses always happen during a new moon.  Have you ever seen a new moon?  That's a regular repeatable pattern too.

There have been two eclipse events within the last ten years and I hadn’t seen a new moon either time. I looked directly at the eclipse and took pictures both times.
Have you ever seen a new moon that was not related to an eclipse event?  If not, there will be another new moon coming up next Sunday (December 1).  Let me know if you see the moon then.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2024, 08:34:11 PM by markjo »
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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JackBlack

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The question is: How is this possible using an incorrect model of the shape of the earth?
The idea is to not use a model of Earth and instead make a prediction based upon a repeating cycle.

You recommended that there’s a link between being able to predict the occurrence of eclipses and the commonly accepted mainline science model of the earth.
Not merely being able to predict occurrences, but predict the path of totality to a great deal of accuracy, which relies upon knowing where the objects are.

I don’t know nearly enough about these events to contribute with any exhaustive detail.
Then maybe you shouldn't be making such definitive statements.

However, as I’ve already mentioned, in order to predict something we’d need to be able to observe/detect it for sometime. we’d need to observe that it does not act at random but is rather predictable.
Or they need to understand what contributes to it to make a prediction based upon that.
e.g. observations of the moon and sun, and the understanding of how the sun, Earth and moon move relative to each other allows one to predict times where they will be in alignment to produce an eclipse and predict that eclipse.

The do not need to notice a pattern in eclipses to do that.

There was an eclipse recently. I didn’t see the moon 🌙.
Firstly, what do you even mean by that?
A solar eclipse or a lunar eclipse? If a solar eclipse, just what were you expecting to see of the new moon. What did you see?


Furthermore, there no evidence that any scientist needs to factor in their belief that the earth is a ball to make an accurate prediction of an eclipse event.
Have you even tried looking for that evidence?

Again, I don’t know enough about this phenomenon. But it’s clear to me
Again, if you don't know enough, then it can't be clear to you.

But to entertain your question. No, the midnight sun does not occur at the outer-reaches of the earth. The days are short, and get shorter the further south you travel.
Except during the southern summer, where the opposite occurs, and the days get longer the further south you travel.
Something not possible in your fantasy.

Observing that the sun is small and local is something almost anyone can do on a clear day.
Actually, observing the exact opposite is something almost anyone can do on a clear day with a solar filter to cut down the glare; where they observe the sun remain roughly the same size throughout the day. Something which shouldn't happen if it was close.

You’re refusing the possibility of a deception when deception is a legitimate possibility.
I wouldn't call it a legitimate possibility. I would call it a desperate reach to try to reject reality.

24 hour sun does happen in the artic when the sun is close and over cancer. It does not happen in the outer-reaches (Antarctica). That’s the flat earth model.
The FE model that fails to match reality.

There is no globe earth. The flat earth is observable by anyone who cares to look.
Again, quite the opposite. If you honestly look, the evidence of curvature is clear.

Observing the sun is a good place to start.
Watch it’s size throughout the day.
And make sure you are watching the actual size of the sun rather than the size of the glare, which can vary dramatically depending on conditions.
And you will observe it remain roughly the same size throughout the day.

Because of how hard it is to get rid of glare without an appropriate filter, the moon is a better candidate.

There have been two eclipse events within the last ten years and I hadn’t seen a new moon either time.
Again, what are you expecting to see?

Do you know what a new moon looks like?

What’s more interesting is observing the “sunset” from elevation over the Pacific Ocean. If the Sea is calm, and the sky is clear, you’ll notice the sun will not disappear beyond the horizon but rather shrinks in size above the horizon until it disappears.
No, you won't notice it shrink. You might notice the glare appear to shrink, but the sun itself wont.
As for seeing it set, that depends upon how calm it is and if there is layers of distortion near the horizon. If it is calm enough, you do see it set, with Earth blocking the view.

I haven’t confirmed with my own photography. However, I have dug up enough videos.
So what you are saying is your objection to the idea of "trust me bro" only matters when it contradicts what you believe.
When it is what you believe, you happily accept it, ignoring any possibility of deception.


This is not a clear day.
There is quite obviously low clouds there obstructing the view.


But even then, you still don't see the sun appear as a point and then get larger.
Instead, it rises from behind the cloud cover, appearing as a thin line as the top starts poking out.
So it isn't even a matter of trust. It is a matter of you seeing what you want to see rather than honestly examining it.


And again, lots of cloud cover, and again, the sun doesn't appear as a point and grow, it rises from behind the clouds.

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Atam-Or

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How can scientists predict solar eclipses if their model of the earth is wrong?

Your question is based on assumption. That’s wrong. You’re assuming they use the heliocentric model to predict eclipses. You have absolutely nothing to base that assumption from. You have no idea how scientists predict eclipses.


I'd like to highlight the back and forth use of words that do damage to understanding and knowledge seeking. Take a breath when triggered, and also imagine being humiliated by another person for an earnest question. Seeking answers doesn't prepare the asking party for being insulted.

I would have mentioned the knowledge without telling the avatar what he was doing and at fault for. Everything is an assumption at one point, remember. Lets dive into things with better consideration for the community. I'd love to make more positive habits happen.

Carry on

Your response is based on an assumption. That's wrong. You're assuming that I am assuming they use the heliocentric model to predict eclipses. You have absolutely nothing to base that assumption from. You have no idea what I believe how scientists predict eclipses.