How does gravity works in FE?

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seaweed

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How does gravity works in FE?
« on: August 19, 2024, 04:31:31 PM »
It is a undisputable fact that when you throw a thing upward, the thing will fall down. In globe Earth model, this is well explained through Newtonian gravity theory, gravity is inversely proportional to distance squared. Newtonian gravity works, this means that according to Newtonian gravity theory, planets will be shape roughly like a ball (because gravity will pull things to form a ball shape). Hence in FE, Newtonian gravity is not working and you need some other model or gravity to explain why things fall down.

What is the model (it is a simple question)?

Please don't give me the accelerating 9.8m/s^2 upward answer, this is the dumbest thing ever.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2024, 05:05:20 PM by seaweed »
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JackBlack

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Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2024, 01:42:47 AM »
They have several ideas.
Some will say Earth is accelerating, and then either reject anything which shows a difference in g over Earth which would cause Earth to tear itself apart, or appeal to something else to explain it at which point they may as well just appeal to that something else.
Others will use gravity with an infinite Earth (only finite objects will collapse into a ball).
Others will things just magically wanting to go down for no reason at all. Some try to appeal to it being their origin, others appeal to density as if that should make things go down.

Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2024, 11:05:57 PM »
It makes perfect sense.

Why can insects and birds fly up into air, while most life cannot?

The only reason a helium filled balloon rises up in air, is that it is less dense than the air is.

A submarine rises up in water when air is put in its ballast tanks, making the sun less dense than water.

Everything is determined by relative density of objects in air or water.   

Buoyancy means less density of objects than the density of air and water.

More density is why objects fall from air and sink in water.

That’s how God created the Earth, above Earth, and within the waters of Earth.


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JackBlack

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Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2024, 01:09:29 AM »
Why can insects and birds fly up into air, while most life cannot?
Wings.

The only reason a helium filled balloon rises up in air, is that it is less dense than the air is.
No, there is clearly something more. As not only do they rise, they also move forwards in a car when you accelerate.

The reason a helium filled balloon rises is the pressure gradient overcoming the downwards force due to gravity.

It doesn't matter what BS you want to try to cover up gravity with, there is that pressure gradient. Something that is measurable and observable.
That pressure will cause a force.

Everything is determined by relative density of objects in air or water.
And gravity.

Buoyancy means
an upwards force based upon the WEIGHT of fluid displaced.

So you need something to explain that weight.

God
You can leave your imaginary fiend out of this.

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seaweed

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Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2024, 01:54:34 PM »
It makes perfect sense.
It doesn't.

Everything is determined by relative density of objects in air or water. 
What is "everything"? What is this quantity exactly?

Buoyancy means less density of objects than the density of air and water.
This sentence is obviously incomplete, what are you trying to express? What will buoyancy do?

More density is why objects fall from air and sink in water.
So in a vacuum, it is weightless because nothing can cause buoyancy? It is not true.

That’s how God created the Earth, above Earth, and within the waters of Earth.
The existence of God is debatable, so don't bring this magical all-powerful figure here. God is not something useful when explain science, because around 600 million people are atheist around the world, including me.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2024, 05:05:28 PM by seaweed »
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markjo

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Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2024, 04:56:44 PM »
Buoyancy means less density of objects than the density of air and water.

More density is why objects fall from air and sink in water.
Except that buoyancy does not work in a gravity free (free fall) environment.
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Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2024, 04:50:27 PM »

More density is why objects fall from air and sink in water.



How do you accelerate an object without a force acting on it.


What happened to this?


The fact that everything has existed on the Earth's surface or it's waters, while nothing at all has ever come down to Earth from elsewhere, over thousands of years time, would indicate they originate on Earth, no indication of being anywhere else, nor evidence of anything at all.

Everything on Earth, has always been on Earth, was created to be on Earth, which is the reason we have no NEED for a 'pulling down, holding down' force to ever exist at all, and none DOES exist at all.

Earth was created for all life to exist on it's surface, or within it's waters, but not within air, except to breathe it, and fly within it, among many other uses beyond, of course.

Why would we need a 'force' to hold things 'down' to Earth's surface, when mass and density keep us on the surface all the time?

It all depends on where all things originate from, doesn't it? And if we cannot prove where things on Earth, first came to exist, we can only look at where they are now, where they once were, and if anything comes to Earth from elsewhere, or not.

Based on all the available evidence, over thousands of years, my argument is far stronger than yours is, and it's not even close. 

It works perfectly.


  Anyway Turbs.  Why can I push a car in neutral around all day long on a level surface.  But as soon as I try to push it up hill, I can’t.  What force stops me from pushing a car up hill by hand. 

Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2024, 02:57:54 AM »
Its mass stops you.

After a force first puts objects up into air, their mass makes them fall, which creates a kinetic force afterwards.

No force is making them fall down from air, their mass and sensity creates their movement, which creates kinetic energy in it.

A helium balloon is lighter and less dense than air, so it rises without a force, also creating kinetic energy. Same both ways, no force, just relative density of air and objects, or water and objects.

That’s why objects in air or water will either rise or fall in the two mediums. More or less dense than the two mediums, that’s a fact. No made up forces here.


Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2024, 03:28:39 AM »
Its mass stops you.



How’s mass a force. 


Especially when I can use the mechanical advantage of the tires and I can push the car on a level surface all day long.

So what force stops me for a car I can push all day long on a level floor from pushing the same car up hill. 

Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2024, 03:30:46 AM »

 their mass makes them fall,

Objects just don’t fall in your false context.  They accelerate towards the center of the earth.  How do you accelerate mass without a force acting on the mass. 

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markjo

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Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2024, 09:08:01 AM »
They accelerate towards the center of the earth.  How do you accelerate mass without a force acting on the mass.
Ask Einstein.
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JackBlack

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Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2024, 02:32:57 PM »
Its mass stops you.
No it doesn't.
If it did, it would stop you pushing it in ANY direction.

After a force first puts objects up into air, their mass makes them fall
Mass does not have directionality.
And you can skip the origin BS, it doesn't work.
If a force first puts an object to the left, it doesn't magically go right.

So that clearly has nothing to do with it and is just more of the same dishonest BS from you.

When it is in the air, it needs a force to make it go down.
Its mass is not enough.
Its mass does not give in any reason to move in any direction.

No force is making them fall
If there was no force, there would be no acceleration and they would keep their velocity.
So if you took a ball and threw it up in the air, it would only be air resistance slowing it down.

A helium balloon is lighter and less dense than air
And importantly, is pushed up by the pressure gradient of the atmosphere, by a force equal to the WEIGHT of the air displaced.
As this force is greater than the downwards force acting on the balloon, it goes down.
If instead you compress that helium and put it in a steel pressure vessel, it goes down, and the weight of the vessel increases as more helium is added.

it rises without a force
No, there is a quite clear force acting there, the pressure gradient of the atmosphere.
The air is pushing on the balloon from all around, but as the pressure below the balloon is greater than the pressure above, the force from the air pushing up is greater than the force from the air pushing down, creating a net force due to this pressure gradient, with this force pushing up.

So again, there is a quite clear force pushing it up.

That’s why objects in air or water will either rise or fall in the two mediums.
So you appeal to pure magic and wilful ignorance?

Again, if you want to your magic BS, you need to explain:
why a difference in density should make it move
why it should cause it to accelerate in a certain direction;
why a particular rate;
why that rate varies with location;
why this causes a force to be read on scales;
how this creates a pressure gradient in the atmosphere and other fluids;
why this pressure gradient doesn't push everything up;
and perhaps most importantly, why when you take this force due to the pressure gradient into account, to accurately account for the behaviour of objects, your magic non force needs to work exactly the same as a downwards force proportional to the mass of the object, regardless of the density of the fluid it is in, as if that is what actually exists rather than your magic BS.

So far you have done none of that. Instead you entirely ignore it all because it shows your nonsense is wrong.

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seaweed

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Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2024, 08:28:03 PM »
Its mass stops you.
No, force stops a moving object

After a force first puts objects up into air, their mass makes them fall, which creates a kinetic force afterwards.
Gravity makes them fall, not mass, mass and force don't even have the same units, how can they be representing the same thing?

No force is making them fall down from air, their mass and sensity creates their movement, which creates kinetic energy in it.
Again mass does not create movement.

A helium balloon is lighter and less dense than air, so it rises without a force, also creating kinetic energy. Same both ways, no force, just relative density of air and objects, or water and objects.
That’s why objects in air or water will either rise or fall in the two mediums. More or less dense than the two mediums, that’s a fact. No made up forces here.
According to your model, CO2, which is 1.58 times denser than air, should fall down because they are denser and all humans should choke to death now. Are we chocking to death? Also what is causing the thing to fall if there is no made up force that cause it to move down? Why things fall down with a particular acceleration of 9.8ms^-2? Because your all-powerful god said so?
« Last Edit: September 01, 2024, 08:34:37 PM by seaweed »
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Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2024, 03:22:37 AM »
The objects greater density than the air it’s within, gives it that direction down from air, what other direction would it take within air? 

If you put a rock along an edge of a hill, and it rolls down the hill, its density makes it roll down the hill within air above it, same way.

Air has little density, cannot hold up objects in it. And so they fall through the air below them. It’s that simple.

Objects are not in motion, a force PUTS them in motion.

Why didn’t Newton mention that fact, he just started by saying ‘objects in motion’, and left out why objects ARE in motion, they don’t exist in motion or something!

Nobody dares to question Newtons ‘laws’, which is complete bs.

Objects must be PUT into motion by a force. This force creates energy, which moves the objects, and when the energy from the force is spent, the object stops moving. Assuming no other force is involved, like wind for example.

Objects in motion don’t stay in motion unless a force acts on them to stop their motion.

What started their motion is a force acting on them, which dies out and stops their motion. No need for another force to come in to stop their motion.


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JackBlack

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Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2024, 03:48:09 AM »
The objects greater density than the air it’s within
Gives absolutely no reason for it to move, and no reason for any direction, and no reason for any rate.

what other direction would it take within air?
Why would it take any direction?

If you put a rock along an edge of a hill, and it rolls down the hill, its density
provides no reason at all for it to move in any direction.

Air has little density, cannot hold up objects in it.
Why does it need to hold up objects?
What force is there that is trying to pull them down?
Are you again appealing to gravity?

And so they fall through the air below them. It’s that simple.
Why not fall through the air above?

So no, it isn't that simple. You have no reason.

Objects are not in motion, a force PUTS them in motion.
No, objects are in motion, and forces can change that motion.

You have no basis to claim there was a magical point in time for all objects where they were magically created and magically stationary.

Why didn’t Newton mention that fact, he just started by saying ‘objects in motion’
Because it doesn't matter if they started in motion or were put in motion.

Nobody dares to question Newtons ‘laws’, which is complete bs.
No, people do. Einstein did which made a different version of relativity.
But sane people recognise the laws work for most things.
It is only crazy people like you that dismiss them as BS and want to appeal to pure magic.

This force creates energy, which moves the objects, and when the energy from the force is spent, the object stops moving.
As has been explained to you before, this is quite clearly not the case.
If this was the case it shouldn't matter what direction you throw an object, it should move along some distance and stop.
Instead, the direction matters quite a lot.

It also means friction would be mostly irrelavent.
It wouldn't matter if you tried to slide a brick along sand paper, or if you slid it on ice, or on a wheeled track, or a maglev track.
It shouldn't matter if you use bushings or bearings, it should move along the same distance and stop.

But back in reality, the friction matters a lot, and extrapolating to no friction has the object not stopping.

Objects in motion don’t stay in motion unless a force acts on them to stop their motion.
Wrong agian.
Objects in motion require a force to stop their motion.
No force, no change in motion.

That is why cars have brakes, rather than just relying upon you taking your foot off the accelerator to stop it, and why cars are made to be aerodynamic.

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seaweed

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Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2024, 01:03:21 PM »
The objects greater density than the air it’s within, gives it that direction down from air, what other direction would it take within air? 
Well CO2 is denser than air, so it should move down and choke all of us, are we choking to death because of CO2 suffocation?

If you put a rock along an edge of a hill, and it rolls down the hill, its density makes it roll down the hill within air above it, same way.
So different rocks will roll down hill with different acceleration because of different density, this is not observed, go to a high place and drop two different metal will different density down, find the acceleration, it will shock you.

Air has little density, cannot hold up objects in it. And so they fall through the air below them. It’s that simple.
Congratulation, you figure out how helium balloons work! But that is all you can explain with this model, you still can't explain why things fall down in a same rate throughout the world.

Objects are not in motion, a force PUTS them in motion.

Why didn’t Newton mention that fact, he just started by saying ‘objects in motion’, and left out why objects ARE in motion, they don’t exist in motion or something!
You literally explain what is causing the motion, FORCE.

Nobody dares to question Newtons ‘laws’, which is complete bs.
Don't blame Newton if you are not capable of understanding his theory.

Objects must be PUT into motion by a force. This force creates energy, which moves the objects, and when the energy from the force is spent, the object stops moving. Assuming no other force is involved, like wind for example.

Objects in motion don’t stay in motion unless a force acts on them to stop their motion.

What started their motion is a force acting on them, which dies out and stops their motion. No need for another force to come in to stop their motion.
First of all, this contradicts Newton's first law, second, if you think Newton's first law is bs, come up with an experiment that explains why, Newton's first law is tested by experiments, if you want to prove it is false, do a experiment. (you probably can't because you don't even know what an experiment is).
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markjo

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Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2024, 04:51:03 PM »
The objects greater density than the air it’s within, gives it that direction down from air, what other direction would it take within air? 
Which way would a rock go if there was no air?  Which way would a helium balloon go if there was no air?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2024, 12:56:13 AM »
No objects are in motion until a force acts on them to put them into motion.

The force uses a limited amount of energy when putting them into motion, and the energy from that force will continue their motion for awhile.

There is no other force needed to stop the object’s motion, that happens because the energy dies out, stopping its motion.

You’re trying to argue that forces apply infinite energy to objects and put them into infinite motion!!

Wrong, of course, forces have finite energy, and they apply it to the object, putting it in finite motion.

No perpetual force or infinite energy acts on objects and they ‘tend to stay in motion’ like bs newton made up.

Everything is about there being a force which must act on objects to cause their motion, they aren’t just ‘in motion’ from nothing at all!


Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2024, 01:08:21 AM »
Objects all fall at the same rate through air because all objects have more density than air, which makes them fall at the same rate.

And objects have to be put up into air by a force, that is one direction upward.

Why would they rise up in air when a force had to put them up in the first place? They’d only go up if a force threw them up, like from the ground.

Their density makes them fall without any external force pushing them down or pulling them down. The medium they’re within cannot hold them in air or throw them up in air or move them sideways, so they just fall through the air below them downward, by their greater density creating their kinetic motion as a fall to Earth.

What would you think objects would do if they weren’t pulled down by your made up force?

Would they float? Air could not suspend them in that air, they are denser than air, so they have to fall through air below them

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Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2024, 02:09:42 AM »
Gravity is inertia.
So long and thanks for all the fish

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JackBlack

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Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2024, 04:13:21 AM »
No objects are in motion until a force acts on them to put them into motion.
Prove it.

The force uses a limited amount of energy when putting them into motion
Which is converted to kinetic energy by putting the object in motion.
Once in motion it needs no more energy to continue in motion.
Instead, a different force needs to act to transfer that energy somewhere else to make the object stop.

There is no other force needed to stop the object’s motion, that happens because the energy dies out, stopping its motion.
Again, that is pure BS, as shown by mountains of evidence.

The energy does not magically die out.
All the evidence shows energy is conserved.

You’re trying to argue that forces apply infinite energy to objects and put them into infinite motion!!
No, that is your strawman.
An object only needs a finite amount of energy to be put into motion, and then unless that energy is taken away, that motion continues.
It does not need infinite energy.

Wrong, of course, forces have finite energy, and they apply it to the object, putting it in finite motion.
No, giving it finite momentum, so it travels at a finite speed.

No perpetual force or infinite energy acts on objects and they ‘tend to stay in motion’ like bs newton made up.
You mean like reality you hate because it shows you are wrong.

Everything is about there being a force which must act on objects to cause their motion, they aren’t just ‘in motion’ from nothing at all!
Wrong again.
Everything is about there being a force to CHANGE the motion.

And notice how yet again you have fled the topic?

The topic is not about momentum. It is about why things fall.
Something you can't explain.

An object being denser than air gives it no reason to fall.
Density does not have a directionality.
It gives it no more reason to fall down than to fall up or sideways or any other arbitrary direction.

But I suppose it does relate in one way, even you say you need a force to make the object move.
So an object in mid-air, for whatever reason, with no force acting on it should stay there, never moving. You need a force to make it go down.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2024, 04:16:26 AM by JackBlack »

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JackBlack

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Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2024, 04:20:04 AM »
Objects all fall at the same rate through air because all objects have more density than air, which makes them fall at the same rate.
Why does it give it that rate?
What does that rate vary around Earth?
Why does that make it fall anyway?

And objects have to be put up into air by a force, that is one direction upward.
No it isn't.
You can break them off a cliff going to the right. You can break them off an outcropping going down.
But it is clear, that moving an object in one direction does not magically make a force move it back in the opposite direction.
So that is clearly not the answer.

Why would they rise up in air when a force had to put them up in the first place?
As above, the force making them go up is irrelevant.

Why should they go down without a force making them go down?

Their density makes them fall without any external force pushing them down or pulling them down.
Again, you are appealing to pure magic and directly contradicting yourself.
You need a force to make it accelerate. You need a force to make it go down.
Density is not a force. It can't make it go down.

The medium they’re within cannot hold them
Again, what is it needing to hold them against?
Without a force, it should just hover, without any need for the air to do anything.

What would you think objects would do if they weren’t pulled down by your made up force?
Would they float?
YES!
Without a force to make them go down, they wouldn't go down.

Air could not suspend them in that air
Why should it need to?
What force does it need to overcome to keep them up?

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seaweed

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Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2024, 11:58:03 AM »
No objects are in motion until a force acts on them to put them into motion.

The force uses a limited amount of energy when putting them into motion, and the energy from that force will continue their motion for awhile.

There is no other force needed to stop the object’s motion, that happens because the energy dies out, stopping its motion.

You’re trying to argue that forces apply infinite energy to objects and put them into infinite motion!!

Wrong, of course, forces have finite energy, and they apply it to the object, putting it in finite motion.

No perpetual force or infinite energy acts on objects and they ‘tend to stay in motion’ like bs newton made up.

Everything is about there being a force which must act on objects to cause their motion, they aren’t just ‘in motion’ from nothing at all!
So you think Newton's first law is total bs, I will prove to it is valid. First, visit the wording of Newton's first law: every object will remain at rest or in uniform motion in a straight line unless compelled to change its state by the action of an external force.

Newton's second law states that: F=ma, so when there is no force, F=0, however the object we are observing should have a mass, thus a=0, or the velocity is a constant (velocity can be zero). People have done experiment about this, here is what you can do about it:
https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/172848/why-is-f-ma-is-there-a-straightforward-reason
The first half of the answer is an experiment designed to prove Newton's second law. Nothing is preventing you from doing this experiment.

If you want to prove it otherwise, build another physical model involving your own version of Newton's first law, do that, test it with experiment and observation, then decide what is right or wrong. Don't be like a joker trying to do physics without experiment but your stupid intuition.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2024, 04:28:09 PM by seaweed »
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seaweed

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Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #23 on: September 08, 2024, 12:01:52 PM »
Objects all fall at the same rate through air because all objects have more density than air, which makes them fall at the same rate.
Prove it.

Their density makes them fall without any external force pushing them down or pulling them down. The medium they’re within cannot hold them in air or throw them up in air or move them sideways, so they just fall through the air below them downward, by their greater density creating their kinetic motion as a fall to Earth.
You still have not answer my question, CO2 is denser than air, so it should sink down and choke all humans alive. Why are we not choking to death?

What would you think objects would do if they weren’t pulled down by your made up force?
They will remain where they were, or if they are moving, move in the direction of its movement.

Would they float? Air could not suspend them in that air, they are denser than air, so they have to fall through air below them
Why not? Nothing is pulling them down without our "made up" force.
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JackBlack

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Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2024, 02:35:00 PM »
So you think Newton's first law is total bs, but let me tell you something. Newton's first law is like an axiom in Newtonian physics. You probably don't know what axiom is so let me tell you: axiom is a statement that is agreed by scientist, it cannot be proven.
I would never describe it like that.

Firstly, there are 2 different ideas about what makes an axiom.
One is a statement so self evident that it needs no justification. e.g. the sky appearing blue during the day.
The other is a premise assumed for further reasoning, which commonly includes things like definitions. e.g. a triangle has 3 sides.

Secondly, in science, pretty much nothing is proven. Instead things are disproven.
Instead, what we have are hypotheses which are tested and become theories. They are limited in that there may be circumstances where they don't apply, or that they lack some key detail.

Also importantly note that while the assumption version of an axiom isn't proven when taken as the axiom, that doesn't mean it cannot be supported.
In fact, that is pretty much how science works. You make a hypothesis, commonly based upon some observation of the world, and then make predictions from it to see if it works or not. And depending on the axiom, some times you can just perform experiments to directly support it.

Prior to Newton, the axiom (assumption) was that the natural state of objects was to be at rest. That is if you put an object into motion it would stop its motion and come to rest. Some would even say this is self evident. Every time people play a game where they roll some dice, the dice are put into motion, but very quickly stop (at least relative to the observers), returning to rest.

Newton challenged this. While he did so as axioms, this can be done without just appealing to them as axioms.
We can measure the acceleration acting on an object, along with the force required to make that acceleration. And we can then extrapolate to 0 force and find 0 acceleration.

Taking it as an axiom that can't be proven just results in people like Turbo feeling justified to reject it as BS.

If you want to prove it otherwise, build another physical model involving your own version of Newton's first law, do that, test it with experiment and observation, then decide what is right or wrong. Don't be like a joker trying to do physics without experiment but your stupid intuition.
And this is just setting up a double standard. Why should he have to prove it, when you can just take it as an axiom and not need to prove it?
As for an alternative, there is what Aristotle proposed, which was fine for over 1500 years, until Newton came along.

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seaweed

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Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2024, 04:29:55 PM »
So you think Newton's first law is total bs, but let me tell you something. Newton's first law is like an axiom in Newtonian physics. You probably don't know what axiom is so let me tell you: axiom is a statement that is agreed by scientist, it cannot be proven.
I would never describe it like that.

Firstly, there are 2 different ideas about what makes an axiom.
One is a statement so self evident that it needs no justification. e.g. the sky appearing blue during the day.
The other is a premise assumed for further reasoning, which commonly includes things like definitions. e.g. a triangle has 3 sides.

Secondly, in science, pretty much nothing is proven. Instead things are disproven.
Instead, what we have are hypotheses which are tested and become theories. They are limited in that there may be circumstances where they don't apply, or that they lack some key detail.

Also importantly note that while the assumption version of an axiom isn't proven when taken as the axiom, that doesn't mean it cannot be supported.
In fact, that is pretty much how science works. You make a hypothesis, commonly based upon some observation of the world, and then make predictions from it to see if it works or not. And depending on the axiom, some times you can just perform experiments to directly support it.

Prior to Newton, the axiom (assumption) was that the natural state of objects was to be at rest. That is if you put an object into motion it would stop its motion and come to rest. Some would even say this is self evident. Every time people play a game where they roll some dice, the dice are put into motion, but very quickly stop (at least relative to the observers), returning to rest.

Newton challenged this. While he did so as axioms, this can be done without just appealing to them as axioms.
We can measure the acceleration acting on an object, along with the force required to make that acceleration. And we can then extrapolate to 0 force and find 0 acceleration.

Taking it as an axiom that can't be proven just results in people like Turbo feeling justified to reject it as BS.

If you want to prove it otherwise, build another physical model involving your own version of Newton's first law, do that, test it with experiment and observation, then decide what is right or wrong. Don't be like a joker trying to do physics without experiment but your stupid intuition.
And this is just setting up a double standard. Why should he have to prove it, when you can just take it as an axiom and not need to prove it?
As for an alternative, there is what Aristotle proposed, which was fine for over 1500 years, until Newton came along.
First of all, thank you for pointing out my logic error and wording problems.

Second of all, I fixed those problems in my post by adding the proof for Newton's first law involving Newton's second law, I also post the experiment to prove Newton's second law.
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Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2024, 06:52:13 PM »
Quote
Why not? Nothing is pulling them down without our "made up" force.

Why do they have to be ‘pulled down’ by any force at all?

Forces come out of nowhere, and vanish into nowhere. A hurricane comes out of nowhere, and vanishes into nowhere. Lightning comes out of nowhere and vanishes into nowhere.

Actually, they come out of certain atmospheric conditions, but only in those conditions do they come to exist.

So when objects are on the surface, they don’t move at all. When thrown up into air, they are in different conditions. They are then within a medium they do not exist in normally. They are in a medium of less density than they have.

Changing their conditions is why they fall through air, there is no force which needs to act on them in air, or ‘pull them down’ from air.

They are set into conditions which don’t exist normally. No force is needed to create a hurricane or lightning.

Forces are not needed to move or ‘pull down’ objects that were put up into air BY a force.

Only magnetic force pulls in objects, other forces like wind  push objects outward from them, or so on. 



Hurricanes and lightning do not need a force to make them exist. They themselves are that force.

Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2024, 08:10:57 PM »
No objects are in motion until a force acts on them to put them into motion.

The force uses a limited amount of energy when putting them into motion, and the energy from that force will continue their motion for awhile.

There is no other force needed to stop the object’s motion, that happens because the energy dies out, stopping its motion.

You’re trying to argue that forces apply infinite energy to objects and put them into infinite motion!!

Wrong, of course, forces have finite energy, and they apply it to the object, putting it in finite motion.

No perpetual force or infinite energy acts on objects and they ‘tend to stay in motion’ like bs newton made up.

Everything is about there being a force which must act on objects to cause their motion, they aren’t just ‘in motion’ from nothing at all!
So you think Newton's first law is total bs, I will prove to it is valid. First, visit the wording of Newton's first law: every object will remain at rest or in uniform motion in a straight line unless compelled to change its state by the action of an external force.

Newton's second law states that: F=ma, so when there is no force, F=0, however the object we are observing should have a mass, thus a=0, or the velocity is a constant (velocity can be zero). People have done experiment about this, here is what you can do about it:
https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/172848/why-is-f-ma-is-there-a-straightforward-reason
The first half of the answer is an experiment designed to prove Newton's second law. Nothing is preventing you from doing this experiment.

If you want to prove it otherwise, build another physical model involving your own version of Newton's first law, do that, test it with experiment and observation, then decide what is right or wrong. Don't be like a joker trying to do physics without experiment but your stupid intuition.

His first ‘Law’ states that objects in motion or not in motion are the same thing. They are not the same at all.

Objects are first and always NOT in motion, they all must be PUT in motion BY an external force. Otherwise, they are not put into motion at all.

That is not addressed by his second ‘Law’ at all. It continues from that false narrative, so it’s bs as well.

Look at how he says motionless objects will remain motionless unless acted on by an external force. That part is what I said he ignored for objects IN motion.

Objects ARE motionless. Not some that are motionless and others that are in motion, none are in motion, all are motionless.

See the problem here?

All objects are motionless, unless acted on by an external force that PUTS them into motion.

Newton used deceptive statements for his ‘Laws’. He defined objects as both motionless and in motion as naturally existing. They do not both exist in natural state, they are ALL motionless in natural state.

If you need more clarification, let me know what you don’t get here. I’d be happy to explain it to you further.

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seaweed

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Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2024, 08:47:41 PM »
Why do they have to be ‘pulled down’ by any force at all?
Because how else are they going to fall down?

Forces come out of nowhere, and vanish into nowhere. A hurricane comes out of nowhere, and vanishes into nowhere. Lightning comes out of nowhere and vanishes into nowhere.
Force comes when you apply it, it disappear when you don't apply it.

So when objects are on the surface, they don’t move at all. When thrown up into air, they are in different conditions. They are then within a medium they do not exist in normally. They are in a medium of less density than they have.

Changing their conditions is why they fall through air, there is no force which needs to act on them in air, or ‘pull them down’ from air.

They are set into conditions which don’t exist normally. No force is needed to create a hurricane or lightning.
You still have not answer my question, CO2 is more dense than air, in your theory it will fall down and choke all of us, why are humans not choking to death?

Quote from: turbonium2 link=topic=92753.msg2431595#msg2431595 date=172584673
Forces are not needed to move or ‘pull down’ objects that were put up into air BY a force.
[/quote
Then how will they fall down when your density model is total bs and does not work?

[quote author=turbonium2 link=topic=92753.msg2431595#msg2431595 date=172584673
Only magnetic force pulls in objects, other forces like wind  push objects outward from them, or so on. 
Actually magnetic force also repel objects with the same polar side (N and N).

Quote from: turbonium2 link=topic=92753.msg2431595#msg2431595 date=172584673
Hurricanes and lightning do not need a force to make them exist. They themselves are that force.
[/quote
How is this related to physics?
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seaweed

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  • Why is the Earth Flat?
Re: How does gravity works in FE?
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2024, 08:56:23 PM »
His first ‘Law’ states that objects in motion or not in motion are the same thing. They are not the same at all.
Because they are, what is the difference of you sitting on your couch and you running in a field? Nothing!

Objects are first and always NOT in motion, they all must be PUT in motion BY an external force. Otherwise, they are not put into motion at all.
Why? Where is the proof?

That is not addressed by his second ‘Law’ at all. It continues from that false narrative, so it’s bs as well.
I showed you the experiment proving Newton's second law, did you do it? What is the result, if you think Newton's second law is total bs, where is your experiment proving that it is bs?

Look at how he says motionless objects will remain motionless unless acted on by an external force. That part is what I said he ignored for objects IN motion.
No, I will once again show you Newton's first law: every object will remain at rest or in uniform motion in a straight line unless compelled to change its state by the action of an external force.

Did he ignore objects in motion?

Objects ARE motionless. Not some that are motionless and others that are in motion, none are in motion, all are motionless.
Why? Where is the proof? Show me an experiment that proves this statement. I already showed you the proof for Newton's first law and second law.

See the problem here?
There is no problem. Objects can be motionless or in uniform motion when no external force is applied.

All objects are motionless, unless acted on by an external force that PUTS them into motion.
Why? Where is the proof? Where is the experiment?

Newton used deceptive statements for his ‘Laws’. He defined objects as both motionless and in motion as naturally existing. They do not both exist in natural state, they are ALL motionless in natural state.

If you need more clarification, let me know what you don’t get here. I’d be happy to explain it to you further.
Why? Where is the proof? Where is the experiment? (this is the fourth time I have said something like this)
You are currently talking to the only person in the world who can make you immortal if you give him enough financial resources.
The ability to speak does not make you intelligent.