Literal Godspeed

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JackBlack

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Re: Literal Godspeed
« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2024, 01:44:03 AM »
I'm actually expecting you guys to answer with something like:
And I'm expecting you to continue with this dishonest BS.
Including just appealing to quotes to pretend you are right, while ignoring the vast majority of experts who fully accept Earth is round, rotating and orbitting the sun; while continuing to ignore requests to show just how the experiment contradicts realitivity, and ignoring how the different experiments all collectively show the prior ideas of how light propagates is wrong.

And you have proven me right, by continuing to deflect.

The reason for why post-classical physics is so odd is because Heliocentrism and Round Earth Theory are wrong.
Except you cannot provide a single piece of evidence to show that. Instead you can just lie about them.

The laboratory experiments with light prove that the earth is flat and that UA is correct.
No, they don't. Not a single one does.
Meanwhile experiments show UA cannot be true because of the variations of g accross Earth.
Likewise, experiments clearly demonstrate the curvature of Earth.

But this is not the topic for all that.
This is the topic for relativity.

Re: Literal Godspeed
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2024, 03:36:11 AM »

The reason for why post-classical physics is so odd is because Heliocentrism and Round Earth Theory are wrong.

And yet, you haven’t explained why a simple dial star atlas of the southern celestial hemisphere accurately predicts the night sky for South America, Africa, Australia.
 

Are there still mysterious concerning time and space. Sure.  But I find it funny that flat earthers like to create these long meaningless and useless word salads that don’t help in my hobbies.  And just ignore simple things that don’t lend to being butchered with word salads.

When I was stationed in areas where river flow and tides impacted my life, the heliocentric model predicted high tides, low tides, tides coming in, tides going out, and tidal bores just fine. What flat earth ever do for me from predicting the night sky while in Australia, navigating in the southern hemisphere, and accurately prediction tides which improved my life. 


I would say that the Heliocentric model is highly accurate and useful for dealing with the real world. Such as preventing trying to snorkel out to sea while the tide is coming in. 
« Last Edit: July 10, 2024, 03:40:53 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Literal Godspeed
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2024, 07:59:50 AM »
Is there any evidence that there is anything limiting speeds in the universe yet? If not, get out of this thread.

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markjo

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Re: Literal Godspeed
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2024, 09:29:45 AM »
Is there any evidence that there is anything limiting speeds in the universe yet?
General relativity.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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JackBlack

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Re: Literal Godspeed
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2024, 01:26:02 PM »
Is there any evidence that there is anything limiting speeds in the universe yet? If not, get out of this thread.
Yes, things like the Sagnac experiment, and the Michelson Morley experiment, as well as the requirements for adjustments for GPS.

Do you have any evidence that these have violated the speed limit of the universe?
Or just cherry picked quotes from people you don't believe anyway?

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gnuarm

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Re: Literal Godspeed
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2024, 03:19:31 PM »
Is there any evidence that there is anything limiting speeds in the universe yet? If not, get out of this thread.

Sayeth the Lord! 

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Literal Godspeed
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2024, 08:11:04 PM »
The speed of light is c +/- v, where v is the speed of the broadcasting device, as tested and confirmed directly in laboratory experiment.

Logically, it makes sense that if you throw a rock at a bystander from a moving car, the rock will hit the bystander at the speed of the rock + the moving car. You will need to do a lot of convincing with a lot of evidence to make me believe that it is possible for the rock to hit the bystander at a specific speed regardless of the additional movement of the car.

Relativity basically just exists as science's denial that heliocentrism is wrong. In the debates on Copernicanism from the Enlightenment through the Victorian era, science dedicated itself to justifying heliocentrism. Relativity is what we ended up with.

Knowing that the true speed of light is c +/- v, I am reminded of the work of François Arago. In 1810 physicist François Arago performed an experiment designed to collect the light of stars near the ecliptic at different times of the year, as the Earth would be moving at different velocities either towards or away from the stars in its orbit around the Sun.

We can read about his experiment here from the Max Planck Institute for the History of Science -

https://d-nb.info/1150815612/34

 “The problem of refraction in moving bodies became an issue in the wave theory of light because of an experiment performed in 1810 by François Arago (1786–1853) in the context of the particle theory. He wanted to determine whether light particles entering a prism would be refracted differently depending on their velocity with respect to the prism. To this end, he considered the refraction of light from the same star over the course of a year. Changes in the velocity of the earth with respect to the star would presumably produce changes in the relative velocity of the earth and the light particles emitted by the star. Arago observed no such effect on the refraction of the star’s light.”

Of course, science was in an uproar over this and just had to explain it. In "The Ten Most Beautiful Experiments" by George Johnson we read about the explanation given by French physicist Augustin-Jean Fresnel:

https://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/ten-beautiful-experiments.pdf

 “A French scientist, Francis Arago, ..had tried to measure the velocity of starlight colliding with the Earth. Arago assumed, naturally enough, that the speed would vary depending on whether the orbiting planet was approaching or retreating from the light source. He mounted a prism on the end of a telescope, predicting that faster light beams would be bent more abruptly than slower ones. He was surprised to find that whatever the season the angles were the same.

Arago concluded that our eyes must be sensitive to only a small range of velocities, that the faster and slower rays were invisible. But his colleague Augustin-Jean Fresnel came up with a different explanation: while aether flows effortlessly through matter's molecular cracks, a tiny bit had become stuck in Arago's prism, carried along for the ride. That, he explained, would negate the effect Arago was seeking. When the Earth was approaching a star, its light would indeed strike the prism at a higher speed. But then it would be slowed a compensating amount by the aether trapped inside the glass. The effect would be true for any transparent medium, Fresnel proposed, and would depend on its index of refraction—a measurement of how much it slows and bends light.”

Like Michelson and Morley, Arago proved that the earth is not revolving around the Sun. Science's response to these sort of experiments was to invent illusions to explain it.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2024, 03:00:42 AM by Tom Bishop »

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markjo

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Re: Literal Godspeed
« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2024, 09:25:53 PM »
Changes in the velocity of the earth with respect to the star would presumably produce changes in the relative velocity of the earth and the light particles emitted by the star. Arago observed no such effect on the refraction of the star’s light.”
Sounds like your source is saying that Arago showed that the speed of light does not vary with the speed of the earth (or the speed of the stars if you assume a geocentric model). 
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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gnuarm

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Re: Literal Godspeed
« Reply #38 on: July 21, 2024, 09:31:53 PM »
I used to think Tom Bishop knew something about science and logic.  Lately, he has been proving me wrong.  I love that he compares the speed of light to a rock thrown from a car.  I guess he didn't actually learn much in college.  He did go to college, didn't he?

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Literal Godspeed
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2024, 02:14:57 AM »
Those colleges dont have any direct experiments showing that the speed of light is always c. They would interpret Arago's experiment as proof that the velocity of light never changes regardless of whether you are moving towards or away from the light source because they "know" that the earth is revolving around the sun and leave it at that. In the first page of this thread, however, we saw that exists direct laboratory experimental evidence that the speed of light is c +/- v, the type of evidence that relativists don't have for their theory.

We already know the truth here, directly, by experiment.

You really need to explain your wacky belief that the speed of the broadcasting body which throws off the light doesnt matter.

Even if you imagine that there is something magical limiting the speed of light to a certain maximal speed, how does that explain why in SR's second postulate the speed of light would still consistently measured to be c by the observer when the v is negative and the broadcasting body is moving away from them?

It is known that in water the speed of light is slowed. Light doesn't travel at c in water. So why not also when the broadcasting body is moving away? The Wang experiment showed that this reduction of speed is exacly what happens in that situation. You are going to need direct experimental evidence if you are going to believe something as wacky as what you believe.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2024, 02:44:31 AM by Tom Bishop »

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JackBlack

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Re: Literal Godspeed
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2024, 02:47:53 AM »
The speed of light is c + v, where v is the speed of the broadcasting device, as tested and confirmed directly in laboratory experiment.
Yet you cannot provide an example of that.

What you try to use as an example, actually shows you are wrong.

For example, for a simple sagnac effect interferometer, do you know the reference frame where the speed of light is not c?
The rotating (non-inertial) reference frame, where your BS says it should be c.

You are appealing to the ballistic model of light.
With the ballistic model of light, the Sagnac effect should be 0.
The observers outside the ring in an inertial reference, watching it rotate, should see the speed of light travelling in the direction of rotation as c+v, while it propagating in the other direction should be c-v.
To those observers in the ring, the source/detector is stationary so they should see light travel at c.
Either way, the light travelling in both directions should take the same amount of time and reach the detector at the same time and not produce any shift.

Instead, the opposite occurs, where those in the inertial reference frame see light travel at c, and those in the non-inertial reference frame see different speeds, with the beam travelling in the direction of rotation travelling slower.
This results in the beam travelling in the direction of rotation taking longer to reach the detector, resulting in a fringe shift.

i.e. the experiment you have tried to appeal to to claim that relativity is broken, actually shows the ballistic model is broken.

Logically, it makes sense that if you throw a rock at a bystander from a moving car, the rock will hit the bystander at the speed of the rock + the moving car. You will need to do a lot of convincing with a lot of evidence to make me believe that it is possible for the rock to hit the bystander at a specific speed regardless of the additional movement of the car.
No, that isn't logic.
There is no prior principles from logic which dictate the speeds must sum.
Instead, that is taking something you observe in one set of conditions and assuming that must apply to all conditions and there is no error at all in your measurements.

As a simple counter example, considering dropping something and letting it fall.
If I do this from a height of 1 m, it hits the ground going at a speed of v.
What should happen if I instead throw it at a speed of u towards the ground? Should it hit the ground at a speed of u+v?
What if I throw it up instead of down?
What if I drop it at a height of 2 m? Should it hit the ground with a speed of 2v, or something else?

What about a height of 20 km?

Experiments show that it is not simple addition, and from a high enough point it reaches terminal velocity and additional height does not make it gain speed.

Your "logic" is no more logical than saying you should be able to make light travel faster.
Because if I get a baseball and hit it, it travels at some speed, but if I hit it harder it travels at a faster speed.
Why can't we do this with light?

The closest analogues we have to light would be things like water waves and sound waves.
That is because with a rock, like in your example, you can pick it up, stop it, move it around all over the place, and then throw it. It existed the entire time.
But with light, sound and water waves, they don't exist like that. You can't pick it up and move it around. It only exists once it is emitted.

And we can see with these waves that it doesn't matter how quickly an object is travelling, the waves travel at the same rate.
When a boat cruises through water, the waves in front don't speed up by the speed of the boat and the wave behind don't get slowed down (nor reverse direction).
Instead, we often see boats go faster than the waves the emit.
To go back to your car analogy, that would be like throwing a rock forwards yet it ending up going backwards.

This is what lead people to believe in an aether, with light propagating at a constant rate relative to that aether.
With that, you can't actually tell what is moving (and no, Airy's failure is a complete failure because you can't tell). It could be Earth or the aether.
This was complicated when stellar aberration demands Earth is moving relative to the aether, while the MM experiment shows it can't be.
A contradiction.

So far, the only explanation which has been able to explain stellar aberration, the MM experiment, and the Sagnac effect, is relativity.
The aether model and the ballistic model both fail. Either with a single experiment that shows it is wrong, or with multiple experiments with contradictory results.

Relativity basically just exists as science's denial that heliocentrism is wrong.
And another lie.
Relative exists because of contradictions between multiple experiments.
Even without appealing to HC, your BS is wrong.

Knowing that the true speed of light is c + v
You mean foolishly believing.
That is not knowing.

I am reminded of the work of François Arago.
Who made a false assumption, and had it shown to be wrong.

Like Michelson and Morley, Arago proved that the earth is not revolving around the Sun.
They did no such thing.
That is just your dishonest misinterpretation of the evidence.

Those colleges dont have any direct experiments showing that the speed of light is always c. They would interpret Arago's experiment as proof that the velocity of light never changes regardless of whether you are moving towards or away from the light source because they "know" that the earth is revolving around the sun and leave it at that.
i.e. because of experiments showing that.

In the first page of this thread, however, we saw that exists direct laboratory experimental evidence that the speed of light is c +/- v
No, we didn't.
We saw you baselessly claim that, and fail to justify it. Instead, in an attempt to pretend your position was sound, you cherry picked quotes from people you think are wrong, while ignoring the experiment and the explanations that that wasn't what the experiment showed.

the type of evidence that relativists don't have for their theory.
You mean the exact kind of evidence the "relativists" do have, which you continue to ignore.

We already know the truth here, directly, by experiment.
Yes, and that is that the speed of light, for an inertial reference frame, is c.

Even if you imagine that there is something magical limiting the speed of light to a certain maximal speed, how does that explain why in the second postulate the speed of light would still consistently measured to be c by the observer when the v is negative and the broadcasting body is moving away from them?
Because it isn't limiting it to a maximum speed, it is restricting it to a set speed.
This speed is dependent on the medium.
Just like sound waves.

You are going to need direct experimental evidence if you are going to believe something as wacky as what you believe.
No, we need experimental evidence. Which we have.
It doesn't necessarily need to be direct experimental evidence.

But we do, again, see the experiment YOU appealed to.

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gnuarm

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Re: Literal Godspeed
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2024, 03:29:04 AM »
Those colleges dont have any direct experiments showing that the speed of light is always c. They would interpret Arago's experiment as proof that the velocity of light never changes regardless of whether you are moving towards or away from the light source because they "know" that the earth is revolving around the sun and leave it at that. In the first page of this thread, however, we saw that exists direct laboratory experimental evidence that the speed of light is c +/- v, the type of evidence that relativists don't have for their theory.

We already know the truth here, directly, by experiment.

You really need to explain your wacky belief that the speed of the broadcasting body which throws off the light doesnt matter.

No, I don't need to "explain" anything.  The science is well established. 

Here's a proof that was shown to me some time ago.  The speed of light, c, shows up in Maxwell's equations.  If you have the values of the other constants used, you can calculate a value for c, that depends on nothing else.  No indication of who is emitting the light, or who is receiving the light. 

How do you explain that, if the speed of light depends on the velocity of the emitting source?


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Even if you imagine that there is something magical limiting the speed of light to a certain maximal speed, how does that explain why in SR's second postulate the speed of light would still consistently measured to be c by the observer when the v is negative and the broadcasting body is moving away from them?

It is known that in water the speed of light is slowed. Light doesn't travel at c in water. So why not also when the broadcasting body is moving away?

Your question makes no sense.  What does water have to do with motion of the source?  Tell me what the mechanism for the lower speed of light in water?  What medium allows light to travel faster? 


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The Wang experiment showed that this reduction of speed is exacly what happens in that situation. You are going to need direct experimental evidence if you are going to believe something as wacky as what you believe.

I guess I'm wacky for believing that we landed people on the moon, as well. 

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markjo

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Re: Literal Godspeed
« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2024, 06:14:31 PM »
Even if you imagine that there is something magical limiting the speed of light to a certain maximal speed, how does that explain why in SR's second postulate the speed of light would still consistently measured to be c by the observer when the v is negative and the broadcasting body is moving away from them?
It's called Doppler Shift.  It's how police RADAR guns measure your speed.

It is known that in water the speed of light is slowed. Light doesn't travel at c in water. So why not also when the broadcasting body is moving away?
Because refraction is different phenomenon than Doppler shift.  The speed of light is constant, but varies by the index of refraction of a given media.  But I'm sure that you already know this.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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zork

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Re: Literal Godspeed
« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2024, 04:18:26 PM »
The Michelson and Morley experiment suggested to scientists that the earth was not rotating around the Sun, which resulted in a reformulation of space and time to create an illusion of and fix it.

Have you read their own article about their experiment? https://history.aip.org/exhibits/gap/PDF/michelson.pdf
They talk about earth being in orbit and about solar system which means they do know that earth is round and they accept heliocentric model.
Rowbotham had bad eyesight
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http://thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf - Visually discerning the curvature of the Earth
http://thulescientific.com/TurbulentShipWakes_Lynch_AO_2005.pdf - Turbulent ship wakes:further evidence that the Earth is round.

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seaweed

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Re: Literal Godspeed
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2024, 02:38:40 PM »
The speed of light is c +/- v, where v is the speed of the broadcasting device, as tested and confirmed directly in laboratory experiment.
No, the speed of light is a constant in any reference frame, it is pointed out by relativity.

Logically, it makes sense that if you throw a rock at a bystander from a moving car, the rock will hit the bystander at the speed of the rock + the moving car. You will need to do a lot of convincing with a lot of evidence to make me believe that it is possible for the rock to hit the bystander at a specific speed regardless of the additional movement of the car.
Too bad, that is what relativity says, it is proven to be correct. If you can't understand relativity, it is not my problem.

Relativity basically just exists as science's denial that heliocentrism is wrong. In the debates on Copernicanism from the Enlightenment through the Victorian era, science dedicated itself to justifying heliocentrism. Relativity is what we ended up with.
What does heliocentrism have anything to do with relativity? Relativity is the evolution of Newtonian Mechanics, I am having trouble understanding this logic. Relativity is a scientific theory that is well proven by observation (gravitational wave, black holes, time dilation), by relativity, the speed of light is a constant in any reference frame, so c+/-v is not how you calculate true speed of light.

Knowing that the true speed of light is c +/- v,
This is not how to speed of light is calculated, knowing that, all your statement below is total bs since it is based on the false statement of light speed is c+/- v.

Like Michelson and Morley, Arago proved that the earth is not revolving around the Sun. Science's response to these sort of experiments was to invent illusions to explain it.
Michelson and Morley did not prove that the Earth is not revolving around the Sun, they prove that aether does not exist.
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