WHY would the government trick us?

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Jura-Glenlivet II

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #870 on: November 29, 2024, 03:28:41 AM »
Just to correct BB’s willful ignorance on US pipeline safety.

The Keystone pipeline was commissioned in 2010; it leaks.

2016, 400 barrels.
2017, 9,600 barrels. Originally under reported by the company by 50%.
2019, 9,120 barrels.
2022, 588,000 gallons (14,000 barrels) costing 480 million dollars to “cleanup”.

Trump will extend this.
TransCanada the company which will build and run this estimates there will be 11 significant leaks over a 50 year period, the University of Nebraska did an independent analysis noting the company had arbitrarily settled on one major spill every 5 years despite the original having 1 major spill and 11 smaller ones in its first year, they estimated that 91 major spills was a more realistic assessment.
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bulmabriefs144

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #871 on: November 29, 2024, 05:39:14 AM »
Would you want oil to spill on trees?

The point is, when the pipeline metal gets old and stuff, one of two things will happen.
1. "Concerned environmentalists" will strongly urge this pipeline be taken down. This pipeline will be like it never hapened. Steel recycling exists, and companies like Exxon and Texaco are brand names.
2. The pipeline will simply fall into disuse. Trees will start to grow all the way up to the pipe. The pipe forms a natural barrier that is actually good for preventing forest fires. Eventually though, the steel will rust and decompose, releasing CO2 (oh no! Whatever will the nearby plants do?!?) and eventually just turn to metal scrap. It'll leave a mess, but it's a mess in a straight line. Any would-be EPA team can just walk right ahead without needing to search through the forest.

Let's compare:
1. "Concerned environmentalists" seem to be strangely absent when solar panels fall apart, in some cases releasing cadmium into the soil. If they don't have cadmium,  there are still the little battery circuits which have battery acid, and the alumunum frames which fill forests with aluminum. By the way, aluminum mostly doesn't corrode, so instead of a breakdown problem, we have trash problem. But they turn a blind eye because these are green technologies, and therefore safe.
2. Remember Solyndra? These companies tend to have small name brand presence, making them somewhat impossible to sue or hold accountable. They might even leave an area and change their compant name, with nobody the wiser. More importantly, the government wants to back such companies, investing money into it. If it tanks, it's a tax shelter for them.
3. If environmental agencies did get involved, if would be a tremendous nuisance. Silicon powder everywhere, mixed with glass sand, mixed with aluminum frame, mixed with degraded battery packs. More importantly, cleanup is not in a straight line. Hunting through a forest for random waste? You have to clear cut the forest to clean it up.
https://www.cfra.org/sites/default/files/publications/Decommissioning%20solar%20energy%20systems%20WEB.pdf

« Last Edit: November 29, 2024, 05:50:11 AM by bulmabriefs144 »
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markjo

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #872 on: November 29, 2024, 07:22:54 AM »
Would you want oil to spill on trees?
I would be more concerned about oil spills getting into the water table.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Themightykabool

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #873 on: November 29, 2024, 08:07:28 AM »
Mmm its almost as if he has faux and swlective outrage

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JackBlack

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #874 on: November 29, 2024, 12:54:05 PM »
Would you want oil to spill on trees?
No, I don't, which is why I would oppose such a pipeline.
But you don't seem to give a damn, doing whatever you can to defend oil.

The point is, when the pipeline metal gets old and stuff
It will break and leak, with the oil spilling out into the environment require lots of cleanup effort which you will ignore because you are too busy sucking the dick of big oil.

1. "Concerned environmentalists" will strongly urge this pipeline be taken down.
And either nothing will happen or they have to do it themselves, spending their time and money to clean up this mess that you love so much, cleaning up all the oil that has spilt, possibly needing to remediate for heavy metals, and so on.
2. The pipeline will simply fall into disuse.
With all the heavy metal laden oil that has spilt just sitting there contaminating the environment.

The pipe forms a natural barrier that is actually good for preventing forest fires.
Pure BS.
A firebreak requires a quite substantial gap. And a pip with a bunch of oil residue will be quite happy to burn.

1. "Concerned environmentalists" seem to be strangely absent when solar panels fall apart
Based on what?
Your wilful ignorance?
Have you actually bothered looking?

cadmium
Silicon based solar panels don't use cadmium.

battery
How many times are you planning on repeating this delusional BS?
Solar panels are not batteries and do not have batteries.

By the way, aluminum mostly doesn't corrode
Guess what? Corroding isn't some magic that makes it vanish.
Turning iron into rust doesn't make it disappear. That rust is still there.

These companies tend to have small name brand presence
Making it much easier to sue them. As opposed to giant oil companies that will do whatever they can to avoid paying anything, or to make sure they pay as little as possible with no real accountability.

e.g. cause trillions of dollars in damage, just pay a few million to make the problem go away.

3. If environmental agencies did get involved, if would be a tremendous nuisance.
No, it would be quite easy.
Much easier than a pipeline, because the pieces are already able to be separated to move off site, and you don't have liquid leaking out.

Silicon powder everywhere, mixed with glass sand
How has it magically turned into silicon powder?

battery
Again, stop repeating this delusional BS.

More importantly, cleanup is not in a straight line.
No, instead it is a simple area, with much less ground to cover.

Yet again, you are just doing whatever you can to make excuses for oil etc, while doing whatever you can to pretend solar is horrible. You keep repeating the same refuted BS regarding solar, while pretending oil is a perfect fantasy land.

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bulmabriefs144

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #875 on: November 29, 2024, 03:31:16 PM »
Would you want oil to spill on trees?
I would be more concerned about oil spills getting into the water table.

See, you people hate trees. You think fish are more important.

Quote
It will break and leak, with the oil spilling out into the environment require lots of cleanup effort which you will ignore because you are too busy sucking the dick of big oil.

And yet, the metal container for our oil heating system for our house has been around for 10+ years.
Almost as though they would stop using the pipeline for oil long before the metal fails.

Quote
With all the heavy metal laden oil that has spilt just sitting there contaminating the environment.

But the aluminum, silica, and battery acid making acid sand? Nah, that's perfectly okay!

https://prescribed-fire.extension.org/how-wide-should-a-firebreak-or-fireguard-be/
Quote
There is no set standard, but it should be wide enough for the fuels along the boundary of the burn unit. Typically a bareground line 4 to 10 feet wide is sufficient, but narrow cow trails and even mowed lines can be safely used.
That pipe is about 4 ft wide just by itself.

Quote
Silicon based solar panels don't use cadmium.

There is no way for a buyer of solar panels to know whether they used sketchy materials. Only the seller knows that information, and it isn't possible to find out until something goes wrong.

Quote
How many times are you planning on repeating this delusional BS?
Solar panels are not batteries and do not have batteries.



Permit me to direct your eyes to what is called the junction box. What do you think it's made of? Rainbows and sunshine? Puppies and unicorns? No, it's made of materials that will store the the energy collected by the solar panel and transfer it to a location. It's a circuit basically. It definitely includes wires and fuses, and may include battery systems for storage of energy until later.

Quote
Guess what? Corroding isn't some magic that makes it vanish.
And the waste from the solar panel is different?

What is different is the ease of disposal. If a pipe is looking like it might fail, you simply shut off pumping, take out the weak section of metal, smelt a new section from numerous already existing metal scraps, and attach the new metal. For that matter, the pipeline didn't need to be made of metal. Unless there was a chemistry reason why not, it might have been made of plastic. Which in turn would have made some of our oceans slightly less plasticy.
If a solar panel needs disposal, most places do not have a means of recycling it.

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Making it much easier to sue them. As opposed to giant oil companies that will do whatever they can to avoid paying anything, or to make sure they pay as little as possible with no real accountability.

Nonsense. Yes, Exxon or Mobil or Texaco probably pay out a penny for every dollar in lawsuits. Maybe even every $10, they pay a penny. But being large companies, they cannot simply pack up and move. The payments may be smaller than you want, millions for every billions, but they are on the hook to pay something.

A small business (having owned a few) on the other hand, is unlikely to pay money ever.  Here's what happened, as Monk says. A business starts up, with an owner... let's call him George Soros and a company name GreenPower. The first five years, they build a solar panels everywhere in an area. They collect the money for these cheap panels. Then sell it to another owner, and they leave town. George Michaels (same guy, btw) starts GreenLight in a town two counties over.  Builds panels, collects money, skips town and that company is offloaded. Michael Jackson starts GoldenShower, and so on...  In 30 years, the first solar farm reaches end of life and winds up waste on some former mountain or farm, but none of the first three solar farms can be sued, as not only is the farm not owned anymore, but now the guy is retired.

Big companies are targets. Small companies can be financially ruined by a single lawsuit, so they develop methods of sidestepping any responsibility altogether. I would say not a single penny has ever been paid by these fly-by-nights, but no actually they do get caught.
https://www.pv-magazine.com/2023/05/10/u-s-court-orders-developer-to-pay-135-5-million-in-100-mw-solar-property-damage-case/
https://apnews.com/article/solar-construction-pollution-clean-water-violations-208bc706b30a57346e96ba74da0bd966

Oh here's an interesting one. So, Toledo Star is a cadmium panel company. Well, they apparently tried to pass themselves off as another solar company!
https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/solar/u-s-manufacturer-toledo-solar-ends-operations-following-lawsuit-leadership-shakeup/
They etched new serial numbers and everything.
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JackBlack

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #876 on: November 29, 2024, 05:46:10 PM »
See, you people hate trees. You think fish are more important.
No, the water table effects everything that uses that water, including trees.

And yet, the metal container for our oil heating system for our house has been around for 10+ years.
And are you trying to flow oil at very high flow rates and pressures? Or just housing a small amount for heating?

Quite different use cases.

But the aluminum, silica, and battery acid making acid sand?
Stop repeating this BS. There are no batteries.

So on the only real complaint is aluminium. Something found in high abundance in lots of natural materials on Earth.

That pipe is about 4 ft wide just by itself.
And yet again, you dishonestly find some crap that you think supports you and then you blindly use it with no understanding or justification.

Given the context and what it is saying, that is a firebreak for a controlled burn of something like grass.
That is NOT for a forest.
If you bothered searching that site, you could even find this:
https://prescribed-fire.extension.org/firebreaks/
Quote
Appropriate firebreak width varies depending upon several factors such as fuel loads, fuel heights, fuel types, and fire-fighting equipment available. For the most part, firebreaks are commonly 10-60 feet wide. However, firebreaks can be as narrow as a walking trail when burning in tree leaves with light winds or as wide as 3,000 feet when burning high volume volatile fuels, such as large junipers.

Likewise, just considering how wide the trees are compared to the pipeline you would see

There is no way for a buyer of solar panels to know whether they used sketchy materials
Except by investigating it, seeing what the panel specifications are and so on, or investigating the types of panels and what materials are used in them and deciding based upon that.
Silicon is used, unless you want to pay more for something special.

Quote
How many times are you planning on repeating this delusional BS?
Solar panels are not batteries and do not have batteries.

And notice what is missing from that diagram?
ANY INDICATION OF ANY BATTERY!
Your own sources shows you are a lying POS.

What do you think it's made of?
Standard materials used for circuits.
Probably a resin based PCB, along with copper traces and copper wires.

No battery.

It is a JUNCTION box, not a BATTERY box.
Do you understand the difference you lying POS?

And the waste from the solar panel is different?
No, I never said it was.
Instead I am pointing out your hypocrisy.
For you, the pipeline is just magic pixie steel which has no contaminants at all and will magic corrode into nothing.
But the solar panels are realistic and unless cleaned up will leave behind something, even if it is a pile of corroding aluminium and what effectively amounts to sand.

What is different is the ease of disposal.
Yes, with a solar panel you can easily isolate a panel, remove it and replace it without any significant issue for the system.
The broken solar panel can then either be repaired or turned to scrap for making new ones.

If it is a pipeline, then typically you can't shut it down, and if you can, there is still so much in it that so much will come out.

Again, you want to live in a land of fantasy, where the pipeline is magic and has no problems, while the solar panel is a dystopia with all the problems you could ever think of regardless of how valid they are.

Unless there was a chemistry reason why not, it might have been made of plastic.
Yes, oil does not play nice with plastic.
Especially not hot oil.

Nonsense.
Not nonsense.
All we need to do is look at what these oil companies have down.
Look at the massive oil spills they have caused. Look at the massive environmental damage they have caused.
Then compare that to their penalties.
Even with the penalties they are hit with, they still rake in loads of profit, and leave the bill to someone else.

A small business (having owned a few) on the other hand
Is not going to be able to support the production and installation of a large solar panel array.
That would require a much larger company, that can then be sued and made to pay.

Here's what happened
You mean here is what happens in your fantasy.

I would say not a single penny has ever been paid by these fly-by-nights, but no actually they do get caught.
You mean you will baselessly assert that based upon nothing more than your own wilful ignorance.
You literally have an article saying accompany has agreed to pay, and claim that nothing has been paid.

Oh here's an interesting one. So, Toledo Star is a cadmium panel company. Well, they apparently tried to pass themselves off as another solar company!
No, they didn't.
Yet again you are lying to everyone.

Instead, they do what plenty of companies do. Take a product from a different company, buying it from that company, and reselling it as their own.

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markjo

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #877 on: November 29, 2024, 08:18:21 PM »
Would you want oil to spill on trees?
I would be more concerned about oil spills getting into the water table.

See, you people hate trees. You think fish are more important.
I think that clean drinking water is pretty important.  Why can't we have all three?
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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bulmabriefs144

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #878 on: November 30, 2024, 03:03:51 AM »
Okay, so when you have solar panels potentially using cadmium or lead, this is not an issue to drinking water?

You see, just now I found out they use lead to solder this things. The goal is by 2026 to reduce lead use to less than 50% of all solar panels (which means however many % have cadmium, most also have lead).

https://www.freeingenergy.com/are-solar-panels-really-full-of-toxic-materials-like-cadmium-and-lead/
Quote
Each standard solar panel contains about 14 grams of lead. That means about 4,400 tons of lead were used to make the 92 GW of solar panels installed in 2018. This is a large amount but still comparatively small relative to the 9,000,000 tons used for batteries each year. But for an industry focused on sustainability, the goal is to remove lead altogether. By 2026, solar manufacturers plan to reduce the use of lead-based solder to less than 50% of panels and to use lead in less than 20% cell manufacturing

They assure us that "very little" cadmium escapes into the environment and they think  only 2% of solar panels use it. But there is no way to know, is there? Not without cracking them open and testing the inside. Doing that raises the risk of it escaping into the environment. And by the way, if it does escape into the environment and makes it to the water table, the results are not great.

Motor oil is not great (you think I'm a fan of the stuff, even though I've told you time and again that we ought to be synthesizing oil; that way, we can make it cleaner), but I want you to try an experiment. Change your oil when it turns black into a large pan (far larger than you would normally use). Keep adding water and more water, and watch as the black  impurities separate, and the oil turns to a gold color. The black part is soot and burnt ethanol which you're gonna pour off, the remaining gold part is the oil, which you're gonna filter out from the water and into a container. Oil can be diluted back to its constituent parts, separating from water (oil and water don't mix). Most oil nowadays is pretty heavily cut with ethanol, and doesn't have lead or heavy metals.

Cadmium on the other hand sediments in the water, and anything that consumes it can't break it down or flush it from their body.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2024, 03:07:56 AM by bulmabriefs144 »
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JackBlack

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #879 on: November 30, 2024, 03:36:25 AM »
Okay, so when you have solar panels potentially using cadmium or lead, this is not an issue to drinking water?
No, they are the ones you want to keep appealing to.
I'll stick to the silicon ones, without toxic substances.

You see, just now I found out they use lead to solder this things.
And they are moving away from it.
As opposed to lead in oil, which is then burnt.
And yes, even without added lead, there is still lead in crude oil.

Even look at your graph, where the vehicle emissions still are not at 0.

They assure us that "very little" cadmium escapes into the environment and they think  only 2% of solar panels use it. But there is no way to know, is there?
Sure there is.
Firstly, check the band gap. That tells you what semiconductor material is being used.

Motor oil is not great (you think I'm a fan of the stuff
Because you continue to defend it at all costs, demanding alternatives are perfect, while being fine with all the damage it does.

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Themightykabool

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #880 on: November 30, 2024, 10:36:36 AM »
Would you want oil to spill on trees?
I would be more concerned about oil spills getting into the water table.

See, you people hate trees. You think fish are more important.
I think that clean drinking water is pretty important.  Why can't we have all three?


Meanwhile he only cares about american trees....

Ecuadorean trees be damned

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bulmabriefs144

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #881 on: November 30, 2024, 06:48:39 PM »
European trees are evil.

But seriously, you Europeans can do whatever you please in your own country.
You want to make a toxic waste dump in your lawn, and as long as it doesn't head to the ocean, that's your own hell you're making. That's the point. There is no evil to hurting yourself, so long as you don't bother others. But you kinda sorta do repeatedly beat people over the head with your weird ideas.

Right now, I'm playing Chrono Cross, and they lay on the anti-human "environmentalism" so thick.


So, let's get this straight. To save a live, you need to kill a hydra. Said hydra being killed in the parallel universe turned this bog into a poison acid marsh. The dwarves could I dunno help you milk the hydra for its aroma. But no. There is no option that I can see to just talk things out. Like a genocide route in Undertale, you just kinda plow through, and the hydra is dead. But oh, if you have Razzly in your party, she tells you that the hydra had eggs in its womb. Which is fine if the hydra knows from birth how to do hydra stuff like cleansing the water. But we see no signs of this. So you get dumped on with huge amounts of shame just for trying to save some girl's life, getting a speech about how destructive humans are when nobody bothered to find a better way. And aroma is a a musk. They could have simply bottled hydra perfume. Nope, let's kill the thing so we can have people talk about how evil human are. That's not the only source of what this is really about. Human loathing shows up in the Smiths referring to humans as a "virus" in the Matrix. And in Thanos talking about wiping half of all life from the universe.

Same day, we watch Jeopardy, and someone talks about how they are a climate educator for a living. That they go all throughout the Earth, telling people that the world needs to adopt zero carbon policies. Ummmm... how did they get there? Damned hypocrites.

You have no problem actually polluting, as long as people are made to kill themselves off over environmental guilt.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2024, 06:58:21 PM by bulmabriefs144 »
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JackBlack

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #882 on: November 30, 2024, 10:00:40 PM »
You want to make a toxic waste dump in your lawn, and as long as it doesn't head to the ocean, that's your own hell you're making. That's the point. There is no evil to hurting yourself, so long as you don't bother others. But you kinda sorta do repeatedly beat people over the head with your weird ideas.
And what you seem to fail to understand is burning coal and oil is hurting everyone.

You have no problem actually polluting, as long as people are made to kill themselves off over environmental guilt.
Yes, we do. But we are pragmatic about it.
That means we go for the lesser evil.

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bulmabriefs144

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #883 on: December 01, 2024, 02:06:23 PM »
Bulldozing trees is the lesser evil? Don't lie.

If I spill some oil on the ground, OMG the world is ended? Or do I just spray it with water and move on with my life?

I don't support the oil industry. I walk nearly everywhere. But between heating my home with gas/oil, and clearing the forest behind me to heat it with solar power, the latter has a smaller impact. Why? Well, that forest provided a habitat for turtles, snakes, foxes, pigeons, deer, wild boars, etc. I got oil delivered to my house and I have hot water any time I want it. Or I have hot water only when it's a sunny day, unless there is some sort of battery storage, and I've destroyed a habitat.
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Atam-Or

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #884 on: December 01, 2024, 03:01:21 PM »
To answer your question with another question, why wouldn't they?
Because most people don't just lie for shits and giggles.

people they don't like?
So you are saying the government hates everyone?
But even then, why lie?

We have seen what they do to the natives, to get the land.

Haven't you seen now they always vote for high property and income taxes
i.e. they want money.
No reason to lie to us about the shape of Earth.

This is what this is about.
So crazy paranoid crap without any real reason?


These kinds of users are so cringy, to me. JackBlack, I'm interested in your style of debate. It's, well, I better not say. I want to hear your take on why anyone should listen to you, as you are. It would serve you better to reserve your automatic response mechanism for your own metation, and not volunteer it here so readily. It injures your credibility.

Thank you, friendly advice unsolicited!! Forgive me

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markjo

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #885 on: December 01, 2024, 03:09:10 PM »
If I spill some oil on the ground, OMG the world is ended? Or do I just spray it with water and move on with my life?
How does spraying an oil spill with water make the oil less harmful to the environment? ???
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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JackBlack

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #886 on: December 02, 2024, 02:06:53 AM »
Bulldozing trees is the lesser evil?
Yes, if you stop sucking the dick of big oil and honestly analyse it.

If I spill some oil on the ground, OMG the world is ended?
How about if you spill thousands of tonnes.
Spraying a little water isn't going to fix it. The best you get is spreading it.

I don't support the oil industry.
Yes, you do. With how you continually defend it.

I walk nearly everywhere. But between heating my home with gas/oil, and clearing the forest behind me to heat it with solar power, the latter has a smaller impact. Why? Well, that forest provided a habitat for turtles, snakes, foxes, pigeons, deer, wild boars, etc. I got oil delivered to my house and I have hot water any time I want it. Or I have hot water only when it's a sunny day, unless there is some sort of battery storage, and I've destroyed a habitat.
So as long as you can shift the problem somewhere else, you don't give a shit?

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JackBlack

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #887 on: December 02, 2024, 02:08:01 AM »
These kinds of users are so cringy, to me. JackBlack, I'm interested in your style of debate. It's, well, I better not say. I want to hear your take on why anyone should listen to you, as you are. It would serve you better to reserve your automatic response mechanism for your own metation, and not volunteer it here so readily. It injures your credibility.

Thank you, friendly advice unsolicited!! Forgive me
Do you have anything constructive to offer, or just pathetic insults?

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Atam-Or

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #888 on: December 02, 2024, 02:20:20 AM »
These kinds of users are so cringy, to me. JackBlack, I'm interested in your style of debate. It's, well, I better not say. I want to hear your take on why anyone should listen to you, as you are. It would serve you better to reserve your automatic response mechanism for your own metation, and not volunteer it here so readily. It injures your credibility.

Thank you, friendly advice unsolicited!! Forgive me
Do you have anything constructive to offer, or just pathetic insults?

I'm sorry about you feeling insulted. That was all I wanted to contribute before, and now this. This is all you, my arena is around. enjoy.


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JackBlack

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #889 on: December 02, 2024, 02:28:59 AM »
I'm sorry about you feeling insulted. That was all I wanted to contribute before, and now this. This is all you, my arena is around. enjoy.
No, I don't feel insulted. You mean far too little for your words to do that. I just recognise that is all your words were. Nothing constructive.

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Themightykabool

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #890 on: December 02, 2024, 04:52:09 AM »
Quote from: Atam-Or link=topic=92453.msg2435683#msg?


These kinds of users are so cringy, to me. JackBlack, I'm interested in your style of debate. It's, well, I better not say. I want to hear your take on why anyone should listen to you, as you are. It would serve you better to reserve your automatic response mechanism for your own metation, and not volunteer it here so readily. It injures your credibility.

Thank you, friendly advice unsolicited!! Forgive me


Pretty passive agressive there



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bulmabriefs144

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #891 on: December 02, 2024, 04:55:14 AM »
If I spill some oil on the ground, OMG the world is ended? Or do I just spray it with water and move on with my life?
How does spraying an oil spill with water make the oil less harmful to the environment? ???

In the same way as cleaning a sink filled with cold chicken fat with soap and hot water helps deal with it, I suppose.

Every year, Americans have to deal with the excess fat of a large bird. Do you flush it down the sink or toilet, knowing it could become a fatberg situation? Do you toss it outside?  Yes, there are degreasers, but then how have a chemical product which itself needs to break down, then the de-degreaser to break that down, and the de-de-dregreaser to break that down... If oil were as bad as all that, shouldn't all fats and greases also be in a lesser list of environmental disasters? So picture this, one day of the year, most families bake this fatty bird. I suppose you want to ban Thanksgiving too! Or how about all of the fast food places. 

You delude yourself into thinking only you care about the environment, and nobody else can have opinions.

But you have no solution at all for the Great Pacific Ocean Trash Thingy. You have two poor solutions for providing energy that assume there will never be rainy days or days without wind. And you think not dealing at all with oils, fats, trash, or the like are going to make them go away.

I noticed you said, "How does spraying with water help?" and not "No, you use cat litter/baking soda/clay/etc." You don't have solutions, you just gripe at people who do something , while you propose the same ideas over and over.

Our nation is filled with trash, and it could have long ago been burned or broken down with organics or chemicals. Burning would at least produce waste energy. Chemicals breaking it down at cost, create the problem of the chemicals instead. That just leaves organics. This works foe paper and lawn waste. But then you have metal, glass, and plastic. Metal and glass can really be recycled, plastic ending up in the ocean already means you failed. Instead of letting someone else do it, you'd prefer there be roadblocks and red tape. Well?!? Burning plastic is terrible, you say. But is it less terrible than having it pile up in oceans? And we already have barrels of oil. Just letting them sit there is a ticking time bomb, you shouldn't pour it out, so the solution is to use the stuff.

I don't want to see your sink after Thanksgiving. Nor your piping.
If ρ=m/V, then B=ρsurfobj


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JackBlack

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #892 on: December 02, 2024, 12:44:34 PM »
In the same way as cleaning a sink filled with cold chicken fat with soap and hot water helps deal with it, I suppose.
Once again demonstrating your true mentality.
You don't give a shit about the environment, you only care about that near you.
If you can push the problem somewhere else you are happy.
If you could live in luxury, completely destroying the entire rest of the world, you would be happy, as long as it doesn't effect you.
That is the kind of mentality that lead to the deforestation of Haiti.

Yes, there are degreasers
Or you use a grease trap.
With that grease then collected and recycled into compost or the like.

If oil were as bad as all that, shouldn't all fats and greases also be in a lesser list of environmental disasters?
No, for a very important distinction.
These fats and oils from things like birds that you are appealing to are structures currently found in life on Earth, which other life on Earth can easily break down and digest.
But life on Earth cannot easily break down the fossil fuel oil.
And the fats and oils from these birds haven't been underground collecting heavy metals like fossil fuel oil has.

You delude yourself into thinking only you care about the environment, and nobody else can have opinions.
No, we don't.
We recognise YOU don't care about the environment. As you have repeatedly shown.
Even saying you don't care about European trees.

But you have no solution at all for the Great Pacific Ocean Trash Thingy.
Notice how you continue to deflect?
The biggest problem with it is collecting it.
Some people like to think of it as a just a massive solid island. But it isn't.
It covers roughly 1.6 million square km, and as an upper bound has roughly 129 000 tons of plastic, or 129 million kg.
That is roughly 80.6 kg per square km, or 80 mg per square m.
That is virtually nothing and would take a lot of resources to collect it.

And even if you managed to collect it all, and it burnt just like oil does, just how long do you think it would last?
Well a single barrel is ~159 L of oil, which is well over 100 kg, or 0.1 tonnes, so being generous, at 10 barrels per ton, that would be 12.9 thousand barrels.
The US alone uses roughly 20 million barrels daily.
So if you cleaned up the entire great pacific garbage patch, you wouldn't even have enough to burn to last a day.

Depending on what you are using, it is almost certainly going to take more energy to go and collect that plastic than you get from burning it.
So if you try to collect it using ships which run on an oil based fuel, you will be burning more oil than you would collect plastic to use as fuel.

Your solution is clearly not thought out.
You have an idea which sounds like it would be wonderful, but is actually entirely impractical and not a solution at all.

The only thing this is a solution for is cleaning up the plastic.
It is NOT a solution for energy as it would take more energy to clean it up than you get from it.

You have two poor solutions for providing energy
No, there are many renewable options. And it is known that they only provide power at certain times.
And these options are vastly better than continuing to burn fossil fuels.
Even if you wanted to pretend there is no option for energy storage, it would still be better to use those renewable technologies when we can and only rely on the fossil fuels when the renewables aren't providing enough.

I noticed you said, "How does spraying with water help?" and not "No, you use cat litter/baking soda/clay/etc."
Because that doesn't help either.
That still isn't breaking down the oil.
It doesn't even remove it from a surface. Instead it just absorbs pools of it, and not very well.

But most importantly, it is because this shows your mentality.
You don't give a shit about the environment, because spraying it with water doesn't help it at all. Instead it just pushes the problem somewhere else where you don't need to think about it.

You don't have solutions, you just gripe at people who do something
And here you again show your hypocrisy.
You object to the idea of "doing something" in the form of renewable energy, because it is untested, etc.
Yet what you propose has been tested and shown to not work, yet you continue to suggest it.

And you want to focus on the symptoms, rather than the cause.

Burning would at least produce waste energy.
That really depends, given the energy required to do so.

And we already have barrels of oil. Just letting them sit there is a ticking time bomb, you shouldn't pour it out, so the solution is to use the stuff.
Not if your "solution" is to continue collecting it.
That as a solution would be to shut down all oil wells and burn through the oil reserves, vowing to never collect another drop.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2024, 12:46:23 PM by JackBlack »

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markjo

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #893 on: December 02, 2024, 04:29:40 PM »
If I spill some oil on the ground, OMG the world is ended? Or do I just spray it with water and move on with my life?
How does spraying an oil spill with water make the oil less harmful to the environment? ???

In the same way as cleaning a sink filled with cold chicken fat with soap and hot water helps deal with it, I suppose.
Chicken fat is not harmful to the environment.


I noticed you said, "How does spraying with water help?" and not "No, you use cat litter/baking soda/clay/etc." You don't have solutions, you just gripe at people who do something , while you propose the same ideas over and over.
The correct solution to clean up an oil spill depends on various things, like the size and location of the spill.  Deep sea, sea shore and ground spill all require different clean up methods.  Spraying water on it and going on your way is never the correct solution for any of them.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Aera23

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #894 on: December 02, 2024, 06:04:17 PM »
For oil spills, detergent based chemicals or even hair/felt mats[1][2] can be used to clean up, detergent may be more harmful than mats though

Sources (I skim read to write the answer):
1) https://matteroftrust.org/clean-wave-program/
2) https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/19/world/oil-spills-human-hair-matter-of-trust-spc-scn-intl-c2e/index.html
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Themightykabool

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #895 on: December 03, 2024, 05:27:39 AM »
If I spill some oil on the ground, OMG the world is ended? Or do I just spray it with water and move on with my life?
How does spraying an oil spill with water make the oil less harmful to the environment? ???

In the same way as cleaning a sink filled with cold chicken fat with soap and hot water helps deal with it, I suppose.
Chicken fat is not harmful to the environment.


I noticed you said, "How does spraying with water help?" and not "No, you use cat litter/baking soda/clay/etc." You don't have solutions, you just gripe at people who do something , while you propose the same ideas over and over.
The correct solution to clean up an oil spill depends on various things, like the size and location of the spill.  Deep sea, sea shore and ground spill all require different clean up methods.  Spraying water on it and going on your way is never the correct solution for any of them.


100barrles of chicken fat is harmful


But back on point, saying oil floats is irrelevant and clogged pipes is irrelevant

The guy is grasping at anything.
he s a gymnastics master.
going to be at the olympics just you see

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bulmabriefs144

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #896 on: December 03, 2024, 06:06:53 AM »

Chicken fat is not harmful to the environment.

On the contrary. Each year, turkey fat clogs drains,

 which occasionally creates pipe pressure explosions that fill field with raw sewage and other waste. Turkey fat also accounts for many of the fryer fires in America. Turkey fat is very devastating to the environment.
Likewise, motor oil is just as good or bad as turkey fat. It's your mind and its delusions that makes something harmless or monstrous.

Keep in mind that motor oil and the materials to make solar panels were all once in the ground. In fact a volcanic eruption basically burns this pressurized underground fuel all at once.
So which is worse? Cooking off underground fuel over a wide range of area a little at a time? Or having a volcano spew it all at once?

Your mind creates demons and angels. It names things "good" and "bad", "harmless" and "dangerous."

The only thing important to me is that we don't clear trees in the name of the environment. If you can mine without an excess of forest clearing go to it. I'd say the same to solar and wind, but the past has shown them not very friendly to trees or birds or fish. And not very effective at the energy vs space equation.

What this is really about: you clear trees for solar plants until America looks like Haiti. Without trees it will be hotter (plants release moisture and provide shade), and you can push a global warming narrative. Hurricanes and other natural disasters are more destructive with plants, so you can be like "See? See?!?" while you ramp up control of the lives of people. You hope that next you'll be able to tell them what to eat, what to wear, and who to love, all to fight " climate change." No, sorry, you wanted to get rid of forests. Not me.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2024, 06:17:12 AM by bulmabriefs144 »
If ρ=m/V, then B=ρsurfobj


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Themightykabool

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #897 on: December 03, 2024, 06:28:28 AM »
Except ecuador...
Alberta, canada
Venezula.
So?




« Last Edit: December 03, 2024, 06:30:01 AM by Themightykabool »

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bulmabriefs144

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #898 on: December 03, 2024, 06:50:31 AM »
So I missed the context of you rattling off countries.

Except what?

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Themightykabool

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Re: WHY would the government trick us?
« Reply #899 on: December 03, 2024, 07:03:48 AM »
Big oil is polluting and clear cuttig the forests in those areas.