Flat earth solar eclipse sun/moon data

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Flat earth solar eclipse sun/moon data
« on: April 09, 2024, 03:15:59 PM »
So.  How does modeling a flat earth solar eclipse work?

What’s the size of the sun?

What’s the size of the moon?

What’s the altitude of the moon?

What’s the altitude of the sun?

How does the speeding up and slowing down of the sun for the seasons change eclipse times?

Does the moon speed up?  Or stay the same speed?

Why would these be the paths of the shadows for a flat earth?

Quote
https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-news/how-did-the-ancients-predicted-eclipses-the-saros-cycle/



This article mentions the next eclipse is 120 degrees off from the previous eclipse to change the region the eclipse will occur.  From eclipse to eclipse.

Quote
HOW DID THE ANCIENTS PREDICT ECLIPSES? THE SAROS CYCLE

https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-news/how-did-the-ancients-predicted-eclipses-the-saros-cycle/

If we take the eclipse date of Oct. 14, 2023, and add one saros cycle to it, we get Oct. 25, 2041. A check of the eclipse catalog above confirms there is indeed a solar eclipse on that date. Add another saros to this date to get Nov. 5, 2059, and again there is an eclipse on this date. The biggest difference between these three eclipses is the extra 8 hours (beyond a whole number of days) in each saros cycle. Also note that because Earth rotates an additional 120 degrees between each eclipse, the eclipses are visible from different geographic regions.




Yes.  I understand there are patterns for different sets of eclipses.  I think they are referred to Saros series.

What I’m asking is how you can use a flat earth as a model with what specs for the sun and moon with both changing speeds through the seasons?  To achieve the same accuracy of a spherical earth where the earth rotates an additional 120 from the last eclipse to push the next eclipse in a different region. 

« Last Edit: April 09, 2024, 03:25:38 PM by DataOverFlow2022 »

Re: Flat earth solar eclipse sun/moon data
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2024, 03:24:07 PM »
Food for thought…

Quote
INDEX TO CATALOG OF SAROS SERIES OF SOLAR ECLIPSES

https://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEsaros/SEsaroscat.html

The following tables summarize the charcteristics of Saros series 0 to 180. The number of solar eclipses in each series is given along with the series duration (years). Also listed are the calendar dates of the first and last eclipse in each series. Finally, the composition of each series is given by a sequence showing number and type solar eclipses. The Saros number in the first column serves as a link to a catalog containing the circumstances for every solar eclipse in the series as well as global maps for each eclipse. The eclipse sequence in the last column links to an animated GIF showing how the eclipse path changes with each member of the Saros.


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Timeisup

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Re: Flat earth solar eclipse sun/moon data
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2024, 12:32:15 AM »
There is no food for any thought on this as no thinking is required. Just as the idea of a flat earth map is an impossibility so is the idea that cosmic predictions based on flat earth ideas could yield any predictions accurate or otherwise.

As the whole notion of flat earth belief is an unscientific fiction it therefore follows all they can ever produce are unsupported flat earth fictions.

Ask yourself why they didn’t produce their own calculated version of the recent eclipse but are more than happy to make stuff up after the event?
Really…..what a laugh!!!

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sandokhan

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Re: Flat earth solar eclipse sun/moon data
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2024, 01:14:51 AM »
You are running away from the debate, by opening a new thread.

You have failed to explain the following:

That meme is wrong, the Saros can and does predict down to the second.

Flat Earth explains the Solar Eclipse paths much better than the Round Earth. Consider those paths on a Round Earth. On the maps the Moon is making quite sharp North-South movements over the course of a few hours. The Moon does not orbit the earth in a South-West to North-East angle.

In RE Moon's orbit only deviates by 5 degrees from the plane of the ecliptic, the Sun-Earth plane. It is also only moving slightly slower in the Sun in the sky, setting 50 minutes later each day

https://web.archive.org/web/20190211123505/http://ircamera.as.arizona.edu/Astr2016/lectures/skyappearance.htm



Consider how the above, with a Moon that moves slowly across the sky in comparison to the Sun, can make all of these wild shapes:

http://eclipse-maps.com/Eclipse-Maps/Welcome.html



Curiously, on a Northern Azimuthal FE map, the paths of the Solar Eclipse make symmetrical arcs:

From A Text-Book of Astronomy by George C. Comstock

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/34834/34834-h/34834-h.htm



Quote
Fig. 36.—Central eclipses for the first two decades of the twentieth century. Oppolzer.

Future eclipses.—An eclipse map of a different kind is shown in Fig. 36, which represents the shadow paths of [pg. 114] all the central eclipses of the sun, visible during the period 1900-1918 A. D., in those parts of the earth north of the south temperate zone. Each continuous black line shows the path of the shadow in a total eclipse, from its beginning, at sunrise, at the western end of the line to its end, sunset, at the eastern end, the little circle near the middle of the line showing the place at which the eclipse was total at noon. The broken lines represent similar data for the annular eclipses. This map is one of a series prepared by the Austrian astronomer, Oppolzer, showing the path of every such eclipse from the year 1200 B. C. [pg. 115] to 2160 A. D., a period of more than three thousand years.

Also see this image:



Re: Flat earth solar eclipse sun/moon data
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2024, 02:51:13 AM »
You are running away from the debate, by opening a new thread.




Not really.

Think of it this way.

sandokhan, you are tasked with creating a computer program to prediction solar eclipses based only off the movements/FE orbits of the moon and sun. No use of past historical records of solar eclipses.

Start with the basics.

What diameter would you use for the sun in the program.

What diameter would you use for the moon.

For the program, what altitude would you use for the sun.

What altitude would you use for the moon above a flat earth.   

What map of earth would you use.

Re: Flat earth solar eclipse sun/moon data
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2024, 02:59:06 AM »
You are running away from the debate, by opening a new thread.



Also.  It quite disingenuous in its obvious this thread was stated to address questions not answered in the other thread.

And you ignored others soundly tore Tom Bishop‘s arguments apart.

Now.  Back to the topic of this thread.  To not use historical patterns to predict future solar eclipses.  To predict and model future eclipses based only on the FE orbits of the moon and sun. And to do that, it strikes at the heart of facts flat earthers refuse to commit to, like the exact sizes and altitudes of the sun and moon




« Last Edit: April 10, 2024, 03:09:13 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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JackBlack

  • 21969
Re: Flat earth solar eclipse sun/moon data
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2024, 03:18:12 AM »
You have failed to explain the following:
What is there to explain? Dishonest representations of the RE, and blatant lies about the FE?
We don't need to explain your lies.
We just need to show how they are lies, and how people like you are intentionally lying to try to save your flat fantasy.

Anyone with an ounce of intelligence that looks at that last image will realise it is a blatant lie. But that doesn't stop lying FEers from making and lying FEers like you accepting it and promoting it.

You don't even make any attempt to demonstrate those arcs are expected for a FE.
You can't explain why the paths of totality have those widths.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Flat earth solar eclipse sun/moon data
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2024, 10:04:48 PM »
Those wild eclipse shadow shapes do not make sense on a globe. In Round Earth Theory, during the Total Solar Eclipse the Moon is in alignment with the Sun and Earth, on the Ecliptic, so the shadow should to appear on the line of the Ecliptic upon the Earth -- the plane of the Sun-Earth system.

I would expect the Total Solar Eclipse shadow to appear here on this path upon the Earth, pointed out with red arrows and red text:



The Total Solar Eclipse occurs when the Moon is aligned with the Ecliptic and the Sun:

https://socratic.org/questions/why-don-t-we-have-eclipses-every-month



"The lunar orbit around Earth is tilted 5.8 degrees to ecliptic apparent path of Sun. Moon goes round the Earth once in 27 days 8 hours. But full moon to full moon is 29.5 days. Eclipses happen only at the point of intersection of both these orbits called nodes."

Here is a Partial Eclipse, as seen from Earth:

https://rwoconne.github.io/rwoclass/astr1230/4.2-eclipses.html

"Viewed on the celestial sphere from the Earth, the node is where the Moon's celestial path crosses the ecliptic. See the diagram below (click for enlargement). Only if the Sun and Moon are both near the node at the same time can a solar eclipse occur. If the Sun and Moon are both near enough to the node but the alignment is not perfect, a partial eclipse will occur, as in the figure"



So, during Total Solar Eclipse, the Moon is on the Ecliptic over the Sun.

The highest apex above the Equator the Ecliptic touches on the Earth's surface is the Tropic of Cancer. The Tropic of Cancer clearly cuts through Mexico, at a lower latitude than the USA:



Why is the Moon's shadow at the time of the Total Solar Eclipse placed elsewhere other than the plane of the ecliptic upon the earth? The Total Eclipse should be Ecliptic intersects the Earth, as both the Moon and Sun are on the Ecliptic.

The "Path of Totality", where the Moon completely completely covers the Sun in Total Solar Eclipse, and the point where the Moon crosses the Ecliptic in the sky to the observer, is often visible to observers from a very odd shape upon the Earth. All of the observers on this darkened path see the Moon completely covering the sun in complete totality:

https://www.exploratorium.edu/eclipse/2024-total-solar-eclipse-guide



There is something not explained here.

In the recent April 2024 eclipse, the Path of Totality where observers could see the Total Solar Eclipse looked like this. The people in these areas beneath the path saw a Total Solar Eclipse:



For some reason the Path of Totality was above the Tropic of Cancer, and was angled northward towards Maine. Why is this?
« Last Edit: April 12, 2024, 03:10:37 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Timeisup

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Re: Flat earth solar eclipse sun/moon data
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2024, 12:17:46 AM »
Those wild eclipse shadow shapes do not make sense on a globe. In Round Earth Theory, during the Total Solar Eclipse the Moon is in alignment with the Sun and Earth, on the Ecliptic, so the shadow should to appear on the line of the Ecliptic upon the Earth -- the plane of the Sun-Earth system.

I would expect the Total Solar Eclipse shadow to appear here on this path upon the Earth, pointed out with red arrows:



The Total Solar Eclipse occurs when the Moon is aligned with the Ecliptic and the Sun:

https://socratic.org/questions/why-don-t-we-have-eclipses-every-month



"The lunar orbit around Earth is tilted 5.8 degrees to ecliptic apparent path of Sun. Moon goes round the Earth once in 27 days 8 hours. But full moon to full moon is 29.5 days. Eclipses happen only at the point of intersection of both these orbits called nodes."

Here is a Partial Eclipse, as seen from Earth:

https://rwoconne.github.io/rwoclass/astr1230/4.2-eclipses.html

"Viewed on the celestial sphere from the Earth, the node is where the Moon's celestial path crosses the ecliptic. See the diagram below (click for enlargement). Only if the Sun and Moon are both near the node at the same time can a solar eclipse occur. If the Sun and Moon are both near enough to the node but the alignment is not perfect, a partial eclipse will occur, as in the figure"



The highest apex above the Equator the Ecliptic touches on the Earth's surface is the Tropic of Cancer. The Tropic of Cancer clearly cuts through Mexico, at a lower latitude than the USA:



Why is the Moon's shadow at the time of the Total Solar Eclipse placed elsewhere other than the plane of the ecliptic upon the earth? The Total Eclipse should be where the Moon intersects the Sun on the Ecliptic.

The "Path of Totality", where the Moon completely completely covers the Sun in Total Solar Eclipse, and the point where the Moon crosses the Ecliptic in the sky to the observer, is often visible to observers from a very odd shape upon the Earth. All of the observers on this darkened path see the Moon completely covering the sun in complete totality:

https://www.exploratorium.edu/eclipse/2024-total-solar-eclipse-guide



There is something not explained here.

In the recent April 2024 eclipse, the Path of Totality where observers could see the Total Solar Eclipse looked like this. The people in these areas beneath the path saw a Total Solar Eclipse:



For some reason the Path of Totality was above the Tropic of Cancer, and was angled northward towards Maine. Why is this?

The answer to your question is very simple to explain.

The reality of the world is very different from what you believe.

The events of the solar eclipse on the 8th of April took place exactly as predicted. That is an inescapable fact.

The fact that those events took place despite what you choose to believe says something about your beliefs.

The fact that those predictions were based on data that contradicts your beliefs should also give you food for thought.

Flat earth belief aches to project belief onto reality but when push comes to shove no amount of flat earth fiction can disprove the reality of an event witnessed real time by millions.

Why don’t you yourself try using your own flat earth derived data produce an after the event prediction for the solar eclipse of the 8th April and let’s see how your beliefs stack up to known reality.

You can post your calculations here. You appear to suggest you have all the right answers so let’s see them.
Really…..what a laugh!!!

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Tom Bishop

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Re: Flat earth solar eclipse sun/moon data
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2024, 03:31:01 AM »
Feel free to spend a few hours searching online for an explanation to what I posted about the odd eclipse shapes and locations. You won't find one, or at least one that isn't some kind of hand-wavey dismissal sentence like "the earth is titled that's why", which we know is insufficient.

In RET where the Sun is directly over the Earth have long been defined as within the Tropics. If the Moon is in line with the Sun, then the shadow of Total Solar Eclipse should also appear within the Tropics. This is a simple geometric expectation.

We have geometry on one side, and "there must be an explanation somewhere..." on the other.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2024, 03:38:16 AM by Tom Bishop »

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JackBlack

  • 21969
Re: Flat earth solar eclipse sun/moon data
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2024, 05:28:43 AM »
Those wild eclipse shadow shapes do not make sense on a globe. In Round Earth Theory, during the Total Solar Eclipse the Moon is in alignment with the Sun and Earth, on the Ecliptic
No, that is when they are in perfect alignment, including with the centre of Earth.
The eclipse happens around that alignment. So it can be off.
And a small bit off at the moon, can translate to an entire Earth radius off at Earth.

If you need a diagram to help you understand:


As all the rest of your nonsense was based upon that, there is no point in discussing it, as it fails because your basic premise it relies upon is pure nonsense.

Here is a simple question for you, if Earth's axial tilt was 0, i.e. the equator lied in the orbital plane, and the moon's orbital plane was rotated 90 degrees to Earth's orbital plane, so it passed directly over the north and south pole, what path would you expect the eclipse to make on this hypothetical rotating round Earth?

Do you think it would magically be a single point on the equator and nothing north or south of it?

In RET where the Sun is directly over the Earth have long been defined as within the Tropics. If the Moon is in line with the Sun, then the shadow of Total Solar Eclipse should also appear within the Tropics. This is a simple geometric expectation.
That is not a simple geometric expectation. That is a baseless assertion representing a fundamental lack of understanding of basic geometry.


Notice how even though the orange and grey dot are located within the upper and lower bounds, the purple lines passing through them extends outside?

In order for your argument to work with basic geometry, you need the moon on the opposite side of Earth to the sun, but then you wouldn't be having a solar eclipse.

So what we really have is one side with coherent explanations, based upon a model which works for countless things, and then we have FEers blatantly lying and resorting to dishonest cons like the above.

Great job showing the dishonesty of FEers yet again.

Now, do you have any of the geometry of a FE solar eclipse and lunar eclipse? Or just "It must work somehow. Earth has to be flat!"?

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Timeisup

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Re: Flat earth solar eclipse sun/moon data
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2024, 06:01:55 AM »
Feel free to spend a few hours searching online for an explanation to what I posted about the odd eclipse shapes and locations. You won't find one, or at least one that isn't some kind of hand-wavey dismissal sentence like "the earth is titled that's why", which we know is insufficient.

In RET where the Sun is directly over the Earth have long been defined as within the Tropics. If the Moon is in line with the Sun, then the shadow of Total Solar Eclipse should also appear within the Tropics. This is a simple geometric expectation.

We have geometry on one side, and "there must be an explanation somewhere..." on the other.

What you propose is totally irrelevant.

The facts are a Solar eclipse happened on the 8th April as predicted down to the second and in the exact location.

How was that possible?

It was possible due to the data plugged into the calculations that were made. Data and methods both of which  are totally at odds with what you believe.

The calculations being pretty complex could only yield a correct answer if the data and methodology were correct and valid.

The important point to note that was only one of the many solar eclipses  correctly  predicted using those and similar methods since Halley  made such a prediction in the 18th ccentury.

All those predictions being based on facts that are at odds with your beliefs.

The other fact is that it would be impossible for data derived from flat earth belief to make such predictions which is why you don’t make any.

Why is it impossible for flat earth notions to make predictions?

It’s impossible as you have no data you could use nor do you have any method.

You could prove me wrong by revealing your method and calculations, which of course you can’t do it as it’s impossible.



 
Really…..what a laugh!!!

Re: Flat earth solar eclipse sun/moon data
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2024, 07:09:36 AM »

We have geometry on one side,

If you can’t answer the below, you have nothing on your side.


Tom Bishop , you are tasked with creating a computer program to model the June 8th 1937 solar eclipses based only off the movements/FE orbits of the moon and sun. No use of past historical records of solar eclipses.

Start with the basics.

What diameter would you use for the sun in the program.

What diameter would you use for the moon.

For the program, what altitude would you use for the sun.

What altitude would you use for the moon above a flat earth.   

What map of earth would you use.


. If flat earth can’t come up with a flat earth “solar system” to dimension, there is no model. Just meaningless false assertions that can’t produce any working model to verify against reality. 

Re: Flat earth solar eclipse sun/moon data
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2024, 09:04:56 AM »
Feel free to spend a few hours searching online



Tom Bishop, is the below the working model for what a solar eclipse is for FE?

No. In the correct FET, the Moon orbits at an altitude a little less than the Sun, but during a solar eclipse it goes behind the Sun. The solar eclipse is caused by the Dark Body which passes in front of the Sun (a slightly smaller diameter).