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Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory

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Cameron 1964

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Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« on: April 05, 2024, 12:48:21 AM »
Being a bit skeptical regarding science is a healthy thing for society. Blind trust in science is probably a bad idea, especially when new ideas are proffered up from university academics.
Of course there are concepts that are old and well proven and being doubtful of are just foolish. Like the fact that the earth is semi-spherical and we live in a heliocentric solar system that orbits a giant galaxy and our galaxy is but one one billions that we can now see and observe with ground and space based instruments.
Believing that millions of people are sworn to secrecy about the reality of our planet just defies any kind of logic or reason. And the people who believe in such a global conspiracy cannot offer a sensible motivation for this global conspiracy, nevermind offer any valid evidence that contradicts reality.
So if there is such a global conspiracy to hide the truth, why?
And it's organized by whom?
And what inducements or threats keeps all those who know the truth from coming forward?
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2024, 07:10:24 AM »
Quote from: Cameron 1964 on April 05, 2024, 12:48:21 AM

So if there is such a global conspiracy to hide the truth, why?
And it's organized by whom?
And what inducements or threats keeps all those who know the truth from coming forward?

Sweet space money.
NASA.
Money.

It is not necessary for millions of people to be sworn to secrecy.
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EarthIsRotund

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2024, 07:34:02 AM »
Quote from: Space Cowgirl on April 05, 2024, 07:10:24 AM
Quote from: Cameron 1964 on April 05, 2024, 12:48:21 AM

So if there is such a global conspiracy to hide the truth, why?
And it's organized by whom?
And what inducements or threats keeps all those who know the truth from coming forward?

Sweet space money.
NASA.
Money.

It is not necessary for millions of people to be sworn to secrecy.

Yes. NASA of course. But what about countless other countries that accept the round earth? Russia, China, Korea, India, Japan, just to name a few. Why would they accept a round earth for no reason?
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EarthIsRotund

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2024, 07:35:09 AM »
Quote from: EarthIsRotund on April 05, 2024, 07:34:02 AM
Quote from: Space Cowgirl on April 05, 2024, 07:10:24 AM
Quote from: Cameron 1964 on April 05, 2024, 12:48:21 AM

So if there is such a global conspiracy to hide the truth, why?
And it's organized by whom?
And what inducements or threats keeps all those who know the truth from coming forward?

Sweet space money.
NASA.
Money.

It is not necessary for millions of people to be sworn to secrecy.

Yes. NASA of course. But what about countless other countries that accept the round earth? Russia, China, Korea, India, Japan, just to name a few. Why would they accept a round earth for no reason?

Especially North Korea. What reason would a dictator have to make his people believe that the earth is round?
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Cameron 1964

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2024, 09:40:56 AM »
Quote from: Space Cowgirl on April 05, 2024, 07:10:24 AM
Quote

Sweet space money.
NASA.
Money.

It is not necessary for millions of people to be sworn to secrecy.

What about all the air and sea pilots and navigators that have to trained for flat earth navigation and the people who train them.
All the soldiers in the world that shoot artillery, etc, etc.
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Cameron 1964

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2024, 09:50:39 AM »
" NASA's budget for financial year (FY) 2020 is $22.6 billion.[1] It represents 0.48% of the $4.7 trillion the United States plans to spend in the fiscal year."
NASA budget is peanuts, must be something more important than sweet space money?
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Pongo

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2024, 10:10:27 AM »
Quote from: Cameron 1964 on April 05, 2024, 12:48:21 AM
So if there is such a global conspiracy to hide the truth, why?

Lets take Boeing as an example. They have been secretly downgrading the quality of their product for years and until recently, no one knew. Sure, there was the occasional person who came forward but they were either silenced or labeled a crackpot.

Now, according to Wikipedia, Boeing employs over 170 million people. Do all 170,000,000 plus people need to be sworn secret carriers? Or do you think that the vast, overwhelming majority of them are just people doing their jobs as their boss tells them. Who are in turn doing their jobs as their boss tells them, and so on. It only takes a few people to know the secret and many of them may not even work for the company! Boeing's board of directors appoints a CEO and in many cases they are just the patsy who takes the fall. As is the case with Boeing's CEO Dave Calhoun who is stepping down in light off all the recent issues.

So, now I ask you, do you think every pilot, every ship captain, every single person down to the guy who cleans toilets in the Estonian Air Force need to be sworn to secrecy? Or do you think they are just people doing thier jobs?

One explanation sure seems a heck of a lot simpler to me.

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EarthIsRotund

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2024, 10:21:27 AM »
Quote from: Pongo on April 05, 2024, 10:10:27 AM
Quote from: Cameron 1964 on April 05, 2024, 12:48:21 AM
So if there is such a global conspiracy to hide the truth, why?
One explanation sure seems a heck of a lot simpler to me.

Or maybe, just maybe, the earth might be round? Sounds a lot more simpler than keeping at the very least a few ten thousand all over the world in sworn secrecy.
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Pongo

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2024, 10:48:40 AM »
Quote from: EarthIsRotund on April 05, 2024, 10:21:27 AM
Quote from: Pongo on April 05, 2024, 10:10:27 AM
Quote from: Cameron 1964 on April 05, 2024, 12:48:21 AM
So if there is such a global conspiracy to hide the truth, why?
One explanation sure seems a heck of a lot simpler to me.

Or maybe, just maybe, the earth might be round? Sounds a lot more simpler than keeping at the very least a few ten thousand all over the world in sworn secrecy.

I thought we just established that it wouldn't take "a few ten thousand" to keep the secret???
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Cameron 1964

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2024, 11:02:14 AM »
Good points Pongo with regard to the 170k Boeing employees, very few, outside of the navigation systems guys, would need to know.
But let's look at the pilots who all definitely would have to know about a flat earth.
According to Wiki, there are 95,000 passenger flights per day. Each flight has a crew of at least 2 for domestic flights and 4 to 6 for international flight. So let's use an average of three flight crew members per flight and many are back and forth, so guestimate 150,000 to 200,000 pilots and copilots flying every day. That's a lot of people sworn to secrecy  Have you ever heard a pilot break the big news that the planet is actually flat?
I've heard many of the become whistle blowers regarding safety and training issues, but never one confession that the world is actually flat...hmm.
Seems somebody's really got all those people committed to this secret.
Or, the more obvious conclusion is the world is not flat.
Probably similar or bigger numbers for ship captains and ship navigators, not to mention private sailors.
Occam's Razor... simplest explanation is almost invariably correct.
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Cameron 1964

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2024, 11:07:13 AM »
My guestimate was low
"According to CAE, a leading supplier of flight training services, the global population of active commercial airline pilots is 351,000 in 2023. In Jun-2023 CAE published its own forecast of pilot demand of the next 10 years, which projected a need for 252,000 new commercial pilots by 2032."
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EarthIsRotund

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2024, 11:21:38 AM »
Quote from: Pongo on April 05, 2024, 10:48:40 AM
Quote from: EarthIsRotund on April 05, 2024, 10:21:27 AM
Quote from: Pongo on April 05, 2024, 10:10:27 AM
Quote from: Cameron 1964 on April 05, 2024, 12:48:21 AM
So if there is such a global conspiracy to hide the truth, why?
One explanation sure seems a heck of a lot simpler to me.

Or maybe, just maybe, the earth might be round? Sounds a lot more simpler than keeping at the very least a few ten thousand all over the world in sworn secrecy.

I thought we just established that it wouldn't take "a few ten thousand" to keep the secret???


No, we established that it wouldn't take a million. But at the very least, there would be ten thousand. To be honest, ten thousand is in fact highly underestimated value, but let's fly with that. You see, there are more than ten thousand pilots in the world. And you have more than ten thousand people who have worked in weather stations and air traffic control. Flying airplanes, its very nature, involves knowing the shape of the earth. And working in weather stations and air traffic control would certainly require you to know the right model of the earth to, well, predict weather and control the flight routes and timings and all that stuff.
And this is just an example from one industry. You need to consider the military, the scientists working on missiles, ICBMs, etc etc, all that require the correct shape of the earth to be known.


Yet, my question remains unanswered. Do tell me, why would a nation such as North Korea would aim to hide the true nature of the earth? What motive would they have? Clearly, it can't be the money for you've got a dictator who has apparent control over the entire budget allocation.
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Cameron 1964

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2024, 11:38:46 AM »
See my earlier post...there are 350,000 commercial pilots around the world. As EartiaRotund points out, that's just one industry and ignores the support structures like air traffic controllers, etc, etc.
So do you think a conspiracy on this scale is feasible?
Again what is the motivation?
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Pongo

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2024, 12:13:29 PM »
Quote from: Cameron 1964 on April 05, 2024, 11:02:14 AM
But let's look at the pilots who all definitely would have to know about a flat earth.

Would they though? They just follow their instruments. Did you know that "flying by the seat of your pants" is a term from almost 100 years ago meaning to fly a plane without instruments? It's a term so divorced from its original meaning that people have no idea where it came from. That's because no one "flies by the seat of their pants" any longer. It's all done by instruments; instruments that pilots have no clue how they work.

If given unlimited materials and tasked with rebuilding the instruments in their cockpit, how many pilots do you think could build just one? These instruments are ironically causing the pilots to fly blind.

Now, lets say someone has a means (the instrument designers) and a motive (money), all they would need to do is write one bit of base code that every navigation instrument references and no pilot would be any the wiser. Planes run on notoriously outdated software. Don't you find it curios that all planes fly on 50+ year old coding languages?

Curious indeed.
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Pongo

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2024, 12:17:14 PM »
Quote from: EarthIsRotund on April 05, 2024, 11:21:38 AM
Yet, my question remains unanswered. Do tell me, why would a nation such as North Korea would aim to hide the true nature of the earth? What motive would they have? Clearly, it can't be the money for you've got a dictator who has apparent control over the entire budget allocation.

North Korea likely doesn't know. Have you seen their struggles trying to get their ICBM program off the ground?
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2024, 12:48:24 PM »
When I want information about the world, I ask lil Kim!
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Cameron 1964

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2024, 01:39:51 PM »
Quote from: Pongo on April 05, 2024, 12:13:29 PM
Quote from: Cameron 1964 on April 05, 2024, 11:02:14 AM
But let's look at the pilots who all definitely would have to know about a flat earth.

Would they though? They just follow their instruments. Did you know that "flying by the seat of your pants" is a term from almost 100 years ago meaning to fly a plane without instruments? It's a term so divorced from its original meaning that people have no idea where it came from. That's because no one "flies by the seat of their pants" any longer. It's all done by instruments; instruments that pilots have no clue how they work.

If given unlimited materials and tasked with rebuilding the instruments in their cockpit, how many pilots do you think could build just one? These instruments are ironically causing the pilots to fly blind.

Now, lets say someone has a means (the instrument designers) and a motive (money), all they would need to do is write one bit of base code that every navigation instrument references and no pilot would be any the wiser. Planes run on notoriously outdated software. Don't you find it curios that all planes fly on 50+ year old coding languages?

Curious indeed.
Of course they are required to have navigation skills, to get certified. They can't just blindly rely on GPS satellite data, in the event of an issue. Besides, they have to file detailed flight plans prior to the flight. You don't just jump in an airplane and fly off to somewhere. Lots of rules and regulations involved with aviation. Including private pilots.
So yes, they all have to know how to navigate without modern instruments, by law to get licensed.
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EarthIsRotund

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2024, 08:23:53 PM »
Quote from: Pongo on April 05, 2024, 12:17:14 PM
Quote from: EarthIsRotund on April 05, 2024, 11:21:38 AM
Yet, my question remains unanswered. Do tell me, why would a nation such as North Korea would aim to hide the true nature of the earth? What motive would they have? Clearly, it can't be the money for you've got a dictator who has apparent control over the entire budget allocation.

North Korea likely doesn't know. Have you seen their struggles trying to get their ICBM program off the ground?


Are you living under a ROCK?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#Nuclear_weapons
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Cameron 1964

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2024, 08:41:55 PM »
ok, so we've established there have to be 100's of thousands of people in the know. So a big global conspiracy keeping flat earth knowledge secret.
I still don't get the motivation.
Who benefits from everyone thinking the earth is round when it's not?
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EarthIsRotund

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2024, 08:47:24 PM »
Quote from: Pongo on April 05, 2024, 12:13:29 PM
Quote from: Cameron 1964 on April 05, 2024, 11:02:14 AM
But let's look at the pilots who all definitely would have to know about a flat earth.

Would they though? They just follow their instruments. Did you know that "flying by the seat of your pants" is a term from almost 100 years ago meaning to fly a plane without instruments? It's a term so divorced from its original meaning that people have no idea where it came from. That's because no one "flies by the seat of their pants" any longer. It's all done by instruments; instruments that pilots have no clue how they work.

If given unlimited materials and tasked with rebuilding the instruments in their cockpit, how many pilots do you think could build just one? These instruments are ironically causing the pilots to fly blind.

Now, lets say someone has a means (the instrument designers) and a motive (money), all they would need to do is write one bit of base code that every navigation instrument references and no pilot would be any the wiser. Planes run on notoriously outdated software. Don't you find it curios that all planes fly on 50+ year old coding languages?

Curious indeed.

Let's talk about the computers.
Have you ever heard of the quote "don't fix what's not broken?" Who care about which programming language a program runs on? For all you could care, the latest computers could have been programmed with assembly and it would still work. You can still watch YouTube, play league of legends, start a flat earth conspiracy. The only reason why we don't use assembly anymore is because it's a PAIN IN THE ASS. Plain simple.
Actually, I might be lying a bit. We STILL use assembly. Sometimes. Very, very rarely.
Now, let's talk about the "one bit of base code". That's not how programs work. Infact, you just increased the number of people to be silenced yourself. Think about the guy programming the airplane. And then you have bunch more guys working with him. To ACTIVELY HIDE the fact that the earth is round. And that is just one team for one model of an airplane. You have thousands of those. Commercial airplanes all around the world.
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2024, 06:38:15 AM »
Quote from: Cameron 1964 on April 05, 2024, 08:41:55 PM
ok, so we've established there have to be 100's of thousands of people in the know. So a big global conspiracy keeping flat earth knowledge secret.
I still don't get the motivation.
Who benefits from everyone thinking the earth is round when it's not?

It's a planar conspiracy.

The multi billion dollar "space" industry.
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EarthIsRotund

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2024, 07:31:28 AM »
Quote from: Space Cowgirl on April 06, 2024, 06:38:15 AM
Quote from: Cameron 1964 on April 05, 2024, 08:41:55 PM
ok, so we've established there have to be 100's of thousands of people in the know. So a big global conspiracy keeping flat earth knowledge secret.
I still don't get the motivation.
Who benefits from everyone thinking the earth is round when it's not?

It's a planar conspiracy.

The multi billion dollar "space" industry.
Two things. One, we already established that multibillion space money is peanuts compared to the multi trillion dollar budget of USA.
Two, what about North Korea? Why are they hiding the fact that earth is round? Wouldn't North Korea have all the more reason to reveal to the world that the earth is flat and that NASA and other space agencies are just a giant hoax? And we already established that they know the real shape of the earth. They have missiles capable of reaching atleast half the earth. That is not possible unless you design it specifically with the correct model of the earth.
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Cameron 1964

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2024, 08:50:45 AM »
Quote from: Space Cowgirl on April 06, 2024, 06:38:15 AM
Quote from: Cameron 1964 on April 05, 2024, 08:41:55 PM
ok, so we've established there have to be 100's of thousands of people in the know. So a big global conspiracy keeping flat earth knowledge secret.
I still don't get the motivation.
Who benefits from everyone thinking the earth is round when it's not?

It's a planar conspiracy.

The multi billion dollar "space" industry.
A "planar conspiracy". Ok that made me smile.

So NASA is the architect of this world wide conspiracy. At least you can articulate your view, and stay on topic. I don't know if they have that much influence, but considering the organization was founded by Nazis after WW2, they could have questionable motives.
I guess nobody else is willing to voice an opinion.
Pongo? Any comments?
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2024, 10:28:29 AM »
If you're going to tell me that all pilots have undeniable evidence that the earth is round then you should make the effort to prove that. Among the wider YouTube Flat Earth Community there have been many interviews with private pilots, commercial airliner pilots, and military pilots who have concerns that the earth seems flat according to high tech instrumentation and flight routines.

When I am inevitably questioned on these interviews and videos you will find that I will be able to pull this up while you still won't have much of anything, proving that this opinion is based on assumptions.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2024, 10:37:19 AM by Tom Bishop »
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EarthIsRotund

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2024, 10:37:22 AM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on April 06, 2024, 10:28:29 AM
If you're going to tell me that all pilots have undeniable evidence that the earth is round then you should make the effort to prove that. Among the wider YouTube Flat Earth Community there have been many interviews with private pilots, commercial airliner pilots, and military pilots who have concerns that the earth seems flat according to instrumentation and flight routines.
Oh, gee, they have concerns?! You know who else have concerns? Me.

They don't need to prove that the earth is round because IT IS ROUND, and nearly everyone, like, 99.9%, KNOW that the earth is round. They have nothing to prove. Now, you, who believe that round earth is an entire conspiracy spun by the NASA, is the one who has to tell us, why are they creating a conspiracy in the first place? Stop arguing just for the sake of it, unless you have something of actual substance.

Now, do post those videos where your flat earthers have interviewed said pilots or shut up.
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Cameron 1964

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2024, 10:55:28 AM »
Thomas can you stay on topic?
I am not arguing you are wrong.
What do you think is the motivation for suppression of the truth?
That's all I am trying to understand.
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2024, 10:57:18 AM »
There are several YouTube channels which collect these interviews and videos. See Mark Sargent's channel, for instance:

Mark Sargent Channel

Retired US Air Force Navigator talks about Flat Earth - SW39 - Mark Sargent




United States Air Force SR-71 pilot proves Flat Earth



Flat Earth & Air Traffic Control - SW123 - Mark Sargent



Flat Earth talks to US Army air traffic controller - SW137 - Mark Sargent



KLM pilot talks about Flat Earth and plane gyro



Veteran 737 Pilot grounded for Flat Earth comments



The Gyro System is rigged says Mack a Commercial Airline Pilot



Pilot with 40 years experience talks about his Flat Earth journey SW212



Flat Earth talks to 40 year pilot & media rant SW253



Commercial Airline Pilot talks about Flat Earth - Interview by Adams Truth Journey



Flight Instructor: We all fly over a FLAT EARTH - SW24 - Mark Sargent



U.S. Army Aviation & Ground Training Combat Expert talks Flat Earth - SW48 - Mark Sargent



Commercial Airline Captain: The plane gyros are rigged - SW58 Flat Earth - Mark Sargent



Air Traffic Controller meets Flight Instructor on a Flat Earth - SW43 - Mark Sargent

« Last Edit: April 06, 2024, 04:40:29 PM by Tom Bishop »
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Cameron 1964

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2024, 11:04:31 AM »
Quote from: Cameron 1964 on April 06, 2024, 10:55:28 AM
Thomas can you stay on topic?
I am not arguing you are wrong.
What do you think is the motivation for suppression of the truth?
That's all I am trying to understand.

I haven't denied anything.
I'm just asking if you can articulate why this FE secret is being suppressed?
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JackBlack

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2024, 01:36:50 PM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop on April 06, 2024, 10:57:18 AM
There are several YouTube channels which collect these interviews and videos. See Mark Sargent's channel, for instance:
You mean one which tries to hide as much information as possible?
Where they basically just say his name is Thomas, with no indication of who he is.
What evidence is that that he is actually a former air force navigator?

Especially from someone like Mark Sargent, who has shown he is happy to lie to prop up his fantasy?
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Tom Bishop

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Re: Healthy Skeptical View of Science and Conspiracy theory
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2024, 01:49:59 PM »
Quote from: JackBlack on April 06, 2024, 01:36:50 PM
Quote from: Tom Bishop on April 06, 2024, 10:57:18 AM
There are several YouTube channels which collect these interviews and videos. See Mark Sargent's channel, for instance:
You mean one which tries to hide as much information as possible?
Where they basically just say his name is Thomas, with no indication of who he is.
What evidence is that that he is actually a former air force navigator?

Especially from someone like Mark Sargent, who has shown he is happy to lie to prop up his fantasy?

I don't see any evidence that these people are not pilots. There are numerous interviews which go into a lot of detail. If you want to deny them all and claim that everyone disagreeing with you is a liar then I will happily await your evidence.
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