What keeps the Sun and Flat Earth from crashing into each other?

Actual forces emit a single level of energy or strength outward, at any given moment.

Are you referring to Newtonian forces like push/pull or fundamental fores like electromagnetism?  They are very different and should not be confused.

(trimmed quote)

For example, you can take two identical sheets of aluminium foil, crumpling one up, and subjecting them to the same wind, and get completely different effects.

This is mainly due to the shape of the foil. Foil that is more expanded will pick up the wind better than foil that is more crumpled. The position of the foil can have an impact too, since it may be touching more or less grass, and it's best side can have a different angle to the wind.

(trimmed quote)

Quote from: JackBlack on October 20, 2024, 02:17:43 AM

For example, you can take two identical sheets of aluminium foil, crumpling one up, and subjecting them to the same wind, and get completely different effects.

This is mainly due to the shape of the foil. Foil that is more expanded will pick up the wind better than foil that is more crumpled. The position of the foil can have an impact too, since it may be touching more or less grass, and it's best side can have a different angle to the wind.

And the point of this is to demonstrate it isn't magically one force on all objects.
There is a different force on the 2 sheets which accelerates them differently.
A key part is the surface area.

Quote from: Aera23 on October 24, 2024, 09:34:02 PM

(trimmed quote)

Quote from: JackBlack on October 20, 2024, 02:17:43 AM

For example, you can take two identical sheets of aluminium foil, crumpling one up, and subjecting them to the same wind, and get completely different effects.

This is mainly due to the shape of the foil. Foil that is more expanded will pick up the wind better than foil that is more crumpled. The position of the foil can have an impact too, since it may be touching more or less grass, and it's best side can have a different angle to the wind.

And the point of this is to demonstrate it isn't magically one force on all objects.
There is a different force on the 2 sheets which accelerates them differently.
A key part is the surface area.

Yep.... also, so many forces combine, that weather forecasting is complex and error prone, despite lots of accuracy improvements over the years. So to even get identical wind conditions requires luck if done outdoors, and even indoors, the speed of the fans in the wind tunnel can vary slightly, etc.

Quote from: turbonium2 on October 20, 2024, 01:18:33 AM

All actual forces are not constant

And gravity is not constant.
Instead, gravity depends on mass and distance.
Just like all forces depend on different factors.

Quote from: turbonium2 on October 20, 2024, 01:18:33 AM

Same as all actual forces act out as one level of energy outward

No, they have a particular strength of the field for a given distance.
That is not the same energy.

Quote from: turbonium2 on October 20, 2024, 01:18:33 AM

Objects act differently to the same energy, based on their different mass and density.

And various other properties.

We have been over this before.
For example, you can take two identical sheets of aluminium foil, crumpling one up, and subjecting them to the same wind, and get completely different effects.
Likewise, 2 objects with the same mass to charge ratio travelling at the same velocity are deflected the same by a magnetic field, even with different masses.

And as I told you, wind is a force over areas, at one strength outward, but lesser over distance across and outward.

No forces emit different levels of energy matching up to each object it hits, that’s ridiculous.

You claim gravity emits different levels of energy to each object, because it somehow calculates each objects mass and density, unlike any other forces, which emit one level of energy outward, to the whole area and all objects in that area.

How would any force account for each object it hits, why would any force care what objects it hits, because it wants to pull them all down at the same rate?!?!

And as I told you, wind is a force over areas, at one strength outward, but lesser over distance across and outward.

And as I told you, gravity is a force over mass.

You claim gravity emits different levels of energy to each object, because it somehow calculates each objects mass and density

No, I claim that gravity, just like wind, is a force that is proportional to some property of the object.
Just like wind is a "force over area", such that objects of larger area experience a greater force from the same strength wind, gravity is a "force over mass" so objects of larger mass experience a greater force from the same strength gravitational field.

Do you think wind emits different levels of energy to each object, because it somehow calculates each objects area?
Because that is basically what you are claiming in regards to gravity.

You are happy for this to happen for all forces, except gravity, because you are desperate to reject gravity at all costs, and you hope you can do it with this.

How would any force account for each object it hits, why would any force care what objects it hits

How does the wind account for it? Why does the wind care what object it hits?

because it wants to pull them all down at the same rate?!?!

No, it doesn't want anything. It simply applies a force proportional to mass. Just like wind applies a force proportional to area.

> No forces emit different levels of energy matching up to each object it hits, that’s ridiculous.

Yep, force-matching is just an illusion, occuring when some objects "catch" the force better than others (like a feather catches more wind than a small pebble weighing the same)

No, wind does not apply different levels of force outward in any way. It is different objects with different surface areas which are hit by the wind, with one same level of force.

And unlike your made up force, wind is a single level of force (in any given area of it of course). So a wind spannng across the air 400 or 4000 feet wide, is a force of 400 or 4000 feet across.When an object spans 200 feet across, like a backyard fence on one side, is completely hit over it by a wind, a large PART of that force hits it, over that 200 feet of fence.

This is NOT a proportional force, it is a part of its one entire force. The objects it hits are what varies the amount of its entire force hitting them.

You need to understand that wind or any other force emits only one level of energy outward at any time. It only varies by the objects it hits, and THEY vary in response to that force. They do not all fly 20 feet over the surface, some don’t move at all, others fly 40 feet across the surface, and so on.

No, only your magical super-fantasy force would adjust in strength by already knowing their masses somehow, and adjusts appropriate levels of force that make all of them get ‘pulled from air’ at the very same speed and acceleration!

When you have to make up this ridiculous claim to support a made up force, it’s toast

No, wind does not apply different levels of force outward in any way. It is different objects with different surface areas which are hit by the wind, with one same level of force.

Again, you can say the same about gravity.
No, gravity does not apply different levels of force outward in any way. It is different objects with different masses which are hit by the gravity, with one same level of force.

This IS a proportional force.
For wind it is proportional to area. For gravity it is proportional to mass.

No, only your magical super-fantasy force would adjust in strength by already knowing their masses somehow

No more so than any other force, like wind, which would adjust in strength by already knowing their area somehow.

When you have to make up this ridiculous claim to support a made up force, it’s toast

You mean when you have to spout this ridiculous BS to pretend gravity is magic your claim is toast.

No, heavier objects acted on by a force might not even move by the force, move slightly, and slowly.

Lighter objects will move faster from the same force
Applying the same force outward results in various different actions on different masses of objects. The objects react differently by each one’s mass.

You’re basically trying to claim that all objects with different masses adjust how much force they need to apply to themselves to get pulled down at the same speed as all other objects, which also decide how much force to apply to themselves to fall the same speed too.

Objects know more than you do, it seems

And again, wind is a single force, if you stretch out your arms in a wind, more of the single force hits you, it is you making more of it hit you, the wind is a single force, objects with more surface area get hit by the one force, but more of that single force hits them

No, heavier objects acted on by a force might not even move by the force, move slightly, and slowly.

Unless that force is greater.

Again, we see this with the wind, where a small, lightweight stone can stay put, while a much heavier sheet of metal can be easily blown, by the greater force applied to the object by the wind.

You’re basically trying to claim that all objects with different masses adjust how much force they need to apply to themselves to get pulled down at the same speed as all other objects

No, I'm not.
I'm saying just like the force an object feels to try to accelerate it due to wind is proportional to the area of the object, the force an object feels to try to accelerate it due to gravity is proportional to the mass of the object.
This means a single gravitational field will apply a greater force to a heavier object which results in the same acceleration.
Just like a single strength wind will apply a greater force to a larger object which can result in the larger object experiencing the same, less or greater acceleration.

Not logical, feasible or possible.

All forces emit one level of energy outward, it doesn’t vary that one level of energy afterwards in proportion to surface area of each object or to each objects mass, that’s absurd.

Again, wind emits one level of force outward, and when it hits objects, it is the surface area of each object differs in how much of that wind hits over them at one time, that makes the objects get hit by more or less of that one force of wind, it is not the wind distributing different levels of its force to each object.

Force does not emit out one level of energy and then distribute it in equal proportions to a property of how much of it is in each object, that’s a joke!

An object with larger surface area isn’t hit with more force of wind, the larger surface area gets hit by MORE of this one force spanning across an entire area, which extends beyond any object it hits, which means the objects get hit by more or less of the one force, depending on their surface area being larger or smaller which gets hit by a larger part of the one force of wind, than smaller objects get hit by that one same force.

The entire wind emits one force, across an entire area at once, which makes it a force over an area, but an object with a large surface area will not move when hit by the wind, because it’s too heavy to react to the wind, while an object with less surface area gets thrown out 200 feet away by the wind because it’s lighter in mass.

So wind is not proportional to the objects surface area, it is the objects of less or more surface area and more or less mass which makes them react differently to this one force.

Not logical, feasible or possible.

Why?
Because you say so?

Again, simple observations of the wind show you are spouting pure BS.

All forces emit one level of energy outward, it doesn’t vary that one level of energy afterwards in proportion to surface area of each object or to each objects mass, that’s absurd.

So either things like wind are incapable of changing the force applied to the object based upon area, so a thin shit of aluminium foil should be effected the same as a solid block weighing the same; or that same "one level of energy" is capable of applying a different force to an object based upon some property of that object, like its area or mass.

So either you need to reject the entirely obvious effects of wind and show just how insane and desperate you are, or your objection to gravity entirely fails.

Either way, you lose.

Again, wind emits one level of force outward, and when it hits objects, it is the surface area of each object differs in how much of that wind hits over them at one time, that makes the objects get hit by more or less of that one force of wind, it is not the wind distributing different levels of its force to each object.

"Again, gravity emits one level of force outward, and when it hits objects, it is the mass of each object differs in how much of that gravity hits over them at one time, that makes the objects get hit by more or less of that one force of gravity, it is not the gravity distributing different levels of its force to each object."

It is equivalent.
Either wind is fake, or your objection to gravity is pure BS.

When a wind blows the sheet but not the crumpled up ball, your proportional wind force should apply less force on the sheet or more force on the crumpled ball to make them both blow away the same distance, like your made up force applies more pulling down force to heavy objects than light objects to pull them down at the same speed, but wind doesn’t do that, only your made up force has that most amazing ability!

That’s exactly what you’re claiming here, but only your magical force does such things as that.

Your saying the force applies various levels of energy to make all objects of any mass act the same to gravity, not like the wind doesn’t care about that.

You’re making my point for me, unwittingly

When a wind blows the sheet but not the crumpled up ball, your proportional wind force should apply less force on the sheet or more force on the crumpled ball to make them both blow away the same distance, like your made up force applies more pulling down force to heavy objects than light objects to pull them down at the same speed, but wind doesn’t do that, only your made up force has that most amazing ability!

Why?
Yet again you spout pure BS, out of pure deseperation.

As the wind is proportional to area, that should apply more force on the sheet, as the area is larger.

That’s exactly what you’re claiming here, but only your magical force does such things as that.

No, that is yet another pathetic strawman you have invented to attack because you cannot refute what I have actually said.

You’re making my point for me, unwittingly

Quite the opposite.
You are refuting yourself.

Again, either your delusional BS is true, and all forces apply the same force to all objects regardless of the properties of the object, meaning the wind would have to apply the same force to a large sheet of aluminium foil as it does to a crumpled up ball (which is clearly pure BS);
or just like we observe in reality, forces can apply a force to an object based upon some property of that object, allowing wind to apply a force based upon area and gravity to apply a force based upon mass.

i.e. you either need to reject something so obvious from reality, or your BS against gravity falls apart.

A wind acts over an entire area with one force over that area. There is nothing proportional or variable to its force.

Obviously a larger surface area of objects is hit by a larger area of wind than objects with less surface area will.

The wind isn’t using less or more force, the objects will be hit by more or less of the same force at once, proportional to THEIR surface area being larger or smaller when hit by the one force of wind.

This is a direct relationship between a known force over an area hitting objects more or less of surface area, with more or less force over its span across the air.

Why would a wind over a 40 foot span hit objects the same way? That’s your made up force doing that nonsense.

If wind acted like you’re made up force, it would apply less force to a 50 foot sheet than to a 5 foot sheet to blow them both back the same distance, as a proprtional force.

That’s what your goofy force is claimed to do- it emits one level of force outward, but varies how much of its force to use by each objects mass, and equalizes the level of force to each one’s mass, wanting them to all be pulled in at the exact same speed to Earths surface.

Despite having no mechanism or reason to adjust its level of force to each objects mass, to pull them all down at the same rate of speed, a magical feat no actual force does, or ever could do, only a bs made up force needs an excuse like that crap. Garbage is better than nothing to you I guess. I’d pack it in as crap instead of playing more the fool as you choose to, but to each their own I suppose.

A wind acts over an entire area with one force over that area. There is nothing proportional or variable to its force.

Again, you can say the same dishonest crap about gravity.
Gravity acts over an entire mass with one force over that mass. There is nothing proportional or variable to its force.

That IS being proportional.

The "strength" of the wind is based upon the wind speed.
But with more area, there is a greater force.
That means it IS proportional to area.

You repeatedly lying about that will not change it.

It is the exact same principle for gravity, but with mass instead of area.

Why would a wind over a 40 foot span hit objects the same way?

That is a question for you, as YOU are the one saying forces are magic that magically apply the same force to all objects.

Why would gravity over a 1 km mass hit objects the same way?

Just consider how utterly insane your BS is.

Take 2 identical 1 kg masses. What force should gravity apply to each? Lets just call it 1 kg force.
What should happen if you then join them together? According to your delusional BS, it should magically have that same 1 kg force, for no reason at all.
Why shouldn't it still receive the 1 kg force for each kg, to get 2 kg force?

Just like if you had a 2 identical 1 m^2 sheets, which you then join together into a 2 m^2, should the wind then magically apply the same force to the combined object as to the single object, as you want to claim for gravity? Or should it act like any sane person would say where the wind applies the sum.

If wind acted like you’re made up force, it would apply less force to a 50 foot sheet than to a 5 foot sheet

No, it wouldn't.
If wind acted like the very real force of gravity you desperately, repeatedly lie about, it would apply roughly 10 times the force to a 50 square foot sheet than it does to a 5 square foot sheet.
Because both are proportional.

Just what BS makes you say it would magically apply less?

As a proportional force, the force is proportional to area for wind and mass for gravity.

i.e. for wind, the force is roughly F=k*A, where k is the strength of the wind, and A is the area of the object.
For gravity it is F=g*m, where g is the strength of the gravitational field, and m is the mass of the object.

That’s what your goofy force is claimed to do- it emits one level of force outward, but varies how much of its force to use by each objects mass, and equalizes the level of force to each one’s mass, wanting them to all be pulled in at the exact same speed to Earths surface.

No, that isn't what happens.
It emits outwards one level of field strength, with that field then resulting in a force based upon the mass of the object.
It is NOT trying to pull them in at the same speed. It is applying a force proportional to the mass of the object.

Again, ALL forces are proportional to some property of the object.

a bs made up

The made up BS here is you continually lying to everyone and contradicting yourself.

Wind hits a huge boulder which doesn’t move, hits a pebble which flies back thirty feet. The smaller surface area didn’t matter at all to the wind you say is based on surface area. Not at all in this case. It was less mass that blew it back, surface area didn’t matter at all.

You still don’t get it. Your made up force emits one level of energy, the only thing in common with real forces..

A magnet also emits one level of energy outward.

Your fantasy force then adjusts its one level of energy to each objects mass, which is the most amazing feat ever, and equalizes its force to their individual mass. It sets them to be pulled at the same speed and acceleration. Objects of more mass receive more energy than those of less mass, because the heavier objects are harder to pull down and require more of the made up force than lighter objects require.

So, does wind make all objects of different surface area blow back the same distance by adjusting its strength? That’s what gravity can do with its amazing force. It makes them all be pulled down at one speed?

What force you have invented there?

It’d be like a magnet emits one force and strength outward, then applies more strength to a 5 lb steel block than to a three ounce steel bail, pulling them in to the nagnet at the same speed !

What an amazing force that would be, if it was made up like yours is.

U

When you talk about proportional, you mean a magically adjusting equalizing force that doesn’t exist.

Wind would blow down large buildings like a piece of paper, equally. It’s proportional to surface area, and equalizes the result of all objects it hits the same way.

Meds aren’t working for you anymore I guess

I don't want to start a discussion on what causes gravity.  Whether it's gravitons or warped space-time or whatever,  it apparently manifests itself as force attracting masses to each other.

The combination of gravity and Newtonian circular motion explains well how the earth can stay in orbit around the sun without crashing into it due to the attractive force between them.

In Flat Earth theory, what keeps the earth and sun from crashing into each other due to that attractive force since there is no orbital centrifugal force countering it?

What nonsense.

1. The Earth doesn't move, so there is no "crashing into" which is more than can be said of the Earth and moon in RE theory. If you're gonna ask that question, you have to ask it for yourself.
2. So the question remains, why doesn't the Earth pull the sun into it? After all, even if the Earth is still, if it pulls the sun around with its gravity, it should naturally pull the sun down into it. That would be true... except gravity does not exist. FE usually uses some system other than conventional gravity, so universal acceleration is not so big as  markjo after you thinks. For instance, I don't use universal acceleration at all, I use a simplified version of buoyancy that accounts for both the rise and fall of objects.
3. Any case, if the sun has mass (and it does indeed appear to rather large) it should sink, right? Even in a buoyancy situation, correct?

Well, let's give examples  of something that really doesn't sink.

Light. That light is not pulled downward, the spotlight remains where directed. If you were to move this spotlight in an arc, you could give a fairly unconvincing sun. But that's what we actually have. A luminary. Not a "star." The moon is likewise a lower wattage luminary.   

I'll mostly less turbonium debate, since I'm just visiting. But yeah, this made up force seems to also behave differently on Earth and in "space." The bottom line is, the only way Earth and sun should crash into each other is if both are in motion. The only other way is if you bizarrely accept gravity (which most FE ppl reject) and yet accept that Earth is larger and more massive than the sun. That's a pretty strange argument there.

Wind hits a huge boulder which doesn’t move, hits a pebble which flies back thirty feet.

Because the 2 objects differ in more than just area.

You aren't helping yourself here.

You still don’t get it. Your made up force emits one level of energy, the only thing in common with real forces..

Again, not a made up force.
A real force, which behaves just like other real forces.

A magnet also emits one level of energy outward.

And yet applies different forces to different objects based upon the properties of that object.

Your fantasy force then adjusts its one level of energy to each objects mass

No, it applies a force proportional to mass, just like wind applies a force proportional to area.

Objects of more mass receive more energy than those of less mass, because the heavier objects are harder to pull down and require more of the made up force than lighter objects require.

Again, not how it works.
Objects of more mass receive more energy/a greater force because they have a greater mass.
Just like wind applies a greater force/more energy to objects with larger area, and magnets do so based upon the properties of the object relating to magnetism.

So, does wind make all objects of different surface area blow back the same distance by adjusting its strength?

No, it applies a force proportional to area, just like gravity applies a force proportional to mass.

It’d be like a magnet emits one force and strength outward, then applies more strength to a 5 lb steel block than to a three ounce steel bail

You were already shown a video showing a magnet applying different forces.

But you ignore it, because it shows you are wrong.

When you talk about proportional, you mean a magically adjusting equalizing force that doesn’t exist.

No, that is what you mean, to pretend gravity can't be real.
Honest people instead mean the force is proportional to some property of the object.
e.g. for wind if you double the area, you double the force.
Just like for gravity, if you double the mass, you double the force.

No one other than you is appealing to equalising BS.

Meds aren’t working for you anymore I guess

I don't need meds. But maybe you should try.

I also notice you entirely ignored the simple question/comparison I gave in response to your BS.

You have two identical 1 kg weights.
They each experience a force.
You then join them together. What happens to the force?

1. The Earth doesn't move, so there is no "crashing into"

Ignoring the fact you are entirely wrong because Earth does move, I hold a ball above Earth. I let it go. It crashes into Earth.
So their certainly is crashing into.

If you're gonna ask that question, you have to ask it for yourself.

And we have gravity and an understanding of how orbits work to explain it.
e.g. the moon is attracted to Earth due to gravity, but its sideways velocity means it circles Earth, with gravity always pulling in towards the centre.
You don't have that. You have the sun and moon above Earth. Gravity, or whatever you want to replace it with, should pull them down and make them crash into Earth.

That would be true... except gravity does not exist.

In your fantasy it doesn't.
But you have something to replace it.
And that makes objects go down, which should be making the sun and moon crash into Earth.

I use a simplified version of buoyancy

Which accounts for virtually nothing, and pretty much doesn't work at all.
 that accounts for both the rise and fall of objects.

Light. That light is not pulled downward, the spotlight remains where directed.

Technically no, but the bigger issue is what is making this light?

But yeah, this made up force seems to also behave differently on Earth and in "space."

You mean it behaves identically, but you will repeatedly lie to pretend it doesn't, because you can't show any fault with it.

No, that is what you mean, to pretend gravity can't be real.
Honest people instead mean the force is proportional to some property of the object.
e.g. for wind if you double the area, you double the force.
Just like for gravity, if you double the mass, you double the force.

No one other than you is appealing to equalising BS.

No, it’s YOU who claims your made up bs force will perform such magical feats as that.

This non-existent force emits one level of energy or strength outward, like all actual forces do. That’s where reality stops and fantasy land takes over.

For arguments sake, I’ll assume wind is a proportional force like the made up force is. Objects of more surface area will be hit by more force from wind, due to the objects larger surface area getting more of the one same force. But let’s call that a proportional force like the fake one is said to be.


Here is the most important part I’ve already told you, and that you deliberately ignore because it destroys your claim right there…

You deliberately ignore that only YOUR made up force magically makes EVERY object get ‘pulled down’ at an EQUAL rate of speed, an EQUAL rate of acceleration in air.

Wind does not make all sheets of all surface areas blow back to an exactly equal distance, say to 4.156 m, like your bs force pulls all objects to Earths surface at an acceleration rate of 9.86m/2, and speed up to the same maximum speed of 168 km per hour. 

Wind doesn’t blow all objects back 3.5 km or whatever. Every object has surface area, but wind doesn’t blow a building back 3.5 km because it has a large surface area. Your made up force acts solely on objects mass, and nothing else, right?

Wind acts on many factors besides surface area, like mass and density, it is not proprtional to surface area, it takes several other factors into account.

Your bs force somehow acts on mass alone, for some odd reason. But now the magical part begins…

What your bs force then does, is to vary its strength on each objects specific mass, and BALANCE them equally, to pull them all down at equal rate of speed and acceleration, no matter what their mass is.

That’s the part you don’t like, and cannot address, because you know it’s complete bs.

Wind will not blow back all objects of different surface area, even if they have the same or relatively the same mass, and same material, etc to an equal distance, or 3 feet in air, or whatever.

No actual force does such magical feats.

Are you going to try and avoid this bs problem forever, like the coward you are?

We know this is complete crap, no force can possibly do such magical things.

But you’ll make another bs excuse, say you never meant that, etc.

Anything but admit the truth, that’s the last thing you’ll ever do

No, it’s YOU who claims your made up bs force will perform such magical feats as that.

Again, the one with made up BS with magical feats is you.

I am appealing to a force quite like many others. And like many others, is proportional to some property of the object.

For arguments sake, I’ll assume wind is a proportional force like the made up force is. Objects of more surface area will be hit by more force from wind, due to the objects larger surface area getting more of the one same force. But let’s call that a proportional force like the fake one is said to be.

You mean lets call a proportional force a proportional force.

You deliberately ignore that only YOUR made up force magically makes EVERY object get ‘pulled down’ at an EQUAL rate of speed, an EQUAL rate of acceleration in air.

You mean the real force of gravity, which isn't surprising given it is proportional to mass.
And no, not in air, in a vacuum.
In air, it is different, because you have the air that you need to move out of the way and the pressure gradient providing an upwards buoyant force.

So no, because it isn't magic, it doesn't actually have every object get pulled down at the same acceleration in air.

But notice how even after accepting the idea of proportional forces, you still don't make any rational objection?

Wind acts on many factors besides surface area, like mass and density, it is not proprtional to surface area, it takes several other factors into account.

No, WIND does not take mass and density into account. It takes area and shape into account.
The resulting acceleration depends on the mass.

What your bs force then does, is to vary its strength

No, it doesn't.
No more so than wind.

That’s the part you don’t like, and cannot address, because you know it’s complete bs.

Your strawman is complete BS.

Anything but admit the truth, that’s the last thing you’ll ever do

You mean the last thing you will ever do.

Just out of curiosity, does the wind help the sun from crashing into the earth, or is this just another unnecessarily irrelevant pedantic tangent?

Just out of curiosity, does the wind help the sun from crashing into the earth, or is this just another unnecessarily irrelevant pedantic tangent?

It is a demonstration that forces are not magic, and instead the magnitude of a force on an object depends on some property of the object, to oppose the idea that gravity should be magic and apply the exact same force to every object so if you took two separate 1 kg weights and joined them together they should magically only weight 1 kgf.

Rather than debating whether or not forces might be magical, perhaps it might be better to discuss what magical and/or non-magical force(s) keep the sun, moon and other celestial bodies from crashing into the flat earth.