# Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo

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#### Themightykabool

• 10971
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #60 on: April 27, 2024, 01:30:42 AM »
It does "rise".
And clouds "sink".
Just like train tracks "pinch".
Unless your eyes are different from everyone elses eyes and you see parallel traintracks that never converge to a point.
Go take an art class.

#### gnuarm

• 399
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #61 on: April 27, 2024, 01:54:31 AM »
When the surface looks to us that it IS rising up, but it is NOT actually rising at all, what we are seeing in an illusion, our perception of a rising surface which isn’t rising.

If you think it’s not an illusion then you think it’s really rising like we see it as?

When we see the surface appearing to rise, geometrically it is not correct, not rising up at an angle.

One.  Has very little to do with the actual thread.

Two.  Why is there a measurable dip to the horizon.

https://flatearth.ws/bottled-water

As someone else has already pointed out, attempting to try to measure "level" wrt the earth is not easy on an airplane, because it will be impacted by inertial effects.  So, better to do this on a high mountain.

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#### DataOverFlow2022

• 4466
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #62 on: April 27, 2024, 03:15:58 AM »

As someone else has already pointed out, attempting to try to measure "level" wrt the earth is not easy on an airplane, because it will be impacted by inertial effects.  So, better to do this on a high mountain.

Turb’s already asserted jet fly “level”…

Planes measure for level within air, by measuring the air pressure around the plane, as I've told you over and over again already. You know that, so cut the BS, it's a waste of everyone's time, especially MINE!

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#### DataOverFlow2022

• 4466
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #63 on: April 27, 2024, 03:20:52 AM »

As someone else has already pointed out, attempting to try to measure "level" wrt the earth is not easy on an airplane, because it will be impacted by inertial effects.  So, better to do this on a high mountain.

Also. The water bottle and water shows “level”.  So if it’s not sloshing around, the water level is accurate.

#### gnuarm

• 399
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #64 on: April 27, 2024, 03:39:33 AM »

As someone else has already pointed out, attempting to try to measure "level" wrt the earth is not easy on an airplane, because it will be impacted by inertial effects.  So, better to do this on a high mountain.

Turb’s already asserted jet fly “level”…

Planes measure for level within air, by measuring the air pressure around the plane, as I've told you over and over again already. You know that, so cut the BS, it's a waste of everyone's time, especially MINE!

Which makes no sense.  I'd love to find the source of this info.  More importantly, I'd love to know how they measure the air pressure so precisely.

So, is Turb saying the level view from the airplane proves the curvature of the earth???

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#### DataOverFlow2022

• 4466
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #65 on: April 27, 2024, 04:10:38 AM »

As someone else has already pointed out, attempting to try to measure "level" wrt the earth is not easy on an airplane, because it will be impacted by inertial effects.  So, better to do this on a high mountain.

Turb’s already asserted jet fly “level”…

Planes measure for level within air, by measuring the air pressure around the plane, as I've told you over and over again already. You know that, so cut the BS, it's a waste of everyone's time, especially MINE!

Which makes no sense.  I'd love to find the source of this info.  More importantly, I'd love to know how they measure the air pressure so precisely.

So, is Turb saying the level view from the airplane proves the curvature of the earth???

It varies.  The individual ignoring it takes increasing power and control surfaces to gain altitude thinks jets should fly into outer space.  Or ignoring jets can fly a steady altitude with a slight pitch up, and land with the nose up, thinks jets would have to continually fly nose down because of curvature.

Note.  To be more specific.  Turbs thinks since a jet doesn’t fly off into space flying “level”, or they don’t fly nose down.  The earth isn’t spherical.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2024, 04:13:07 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

#### JackBlack

• 22468
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #66 on: April 27, 2024, 02:49:11 PM »
When the surface looks to us that it IS rising up, but it is NOT actually rising at all, what we are seeing in an illusion, our perception of a rising surface which isn’t rising.

If you think it’s not an illusion then you think it’s really rising like we see it as?

When we see the surface appearing to rise, geometrically it is not correct, not rising up at an angle.
It isn't an illusion, it is simple geometry.
You see based upon angles, not physical height.

It isn't magic, just basic geometry.
For a flat Earth, this should continue forever. For a RE, eventually curvature wins.
This has been explained to you repeatedly.
You have been unable to show a fault with this explanation, and instead you just keep hiding from it.

#### gnuarm

• 399
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #67 on: April 27, 2024, 04:09:15 PM »

As someone else has already pointed out, attempting to try to measure "level" wrt the earth is not easy on an airplane, because it will be impacted by inertial effects.  So, better to do this on a high mountain.

Also. The water bottle and water shows “level”.  So if it’s not sloshing around, the water level is accurate.

I don't think that is accurate.  The plane can be in a steady state of acceleration in some direction, which would muck with the level reading.  As long as the acceleration is not changing, it would show as a steady change in the perceived level surface.

An extreme example would be a flight on the vomit comet.  They adjust the flight so there is no gravity effect.  Once in a steady state of free fall, there would be no sloshing in the bottle.  The flight of the plane could be controlled to make "down" appear in any direction.

#### JackBlack

• 22468
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #68 on: April 27, 2024, 06:46:04 PM »

As someone else has already pointed out, attempting to try to measure "level" wrt the earth is not easy on an airplane, because it will be impacted by inertial effects.  So, better to do this on a high mountain.

Also. The water bottle and water shows “level”.  So if it’s not sloshing around, the water level is accurate.
As I explained before, a good pilot coordinates turns and other manouvers so the apparent direction of down is towards the floor of the plane, regardless of the orientation of the plane.

Here is a great example:

Did the water level in that glass remain accurate during that roll?

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#### DataOverFlow2022

• 4466
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #69 on: April 28, 2024, 01:52:39 AM »

As someone else has already pointed out, attempting to try to measure "level" wrt the earth is not easy on an airplane, because it will be impacted by inertial effects.  So, better to do this on a high mountain.

Also. The water bottle and water shows “level”.  So if it’s not sloshing around, the water level is accurate.
As I explained before, a good pilot coordinates turns and other manouvers so the apparent direction of down is towards the floor of the plane, regardless of the orientation of the plane.

Here is a great example:

Did the water level in that glass remain accurate during that roll?

How many passenger jets are cleared to do barrel rolls?

Quote
Can large commercial planes fly upside down?

Large commercial planes, such as passenger airliners, are not designed to fly upside down, and attempting to do so would be extremely dangerous and potentially catastrophic. The aerodynamic design of commercial planes, including their wing shape and configuration, is optimized for efficient level flight and safe operation within the typical flight envelope.

Commercial airplanes are designed to generate lift efficiently when flying right side up, and their wings are not symmetrical like those of aerobatic aircraft or fighter jets. Therefore, if a large commercial plane were to attempt an inverted flight, it would experience a significant loss of lift, resulting in a rapid descent and potential loss of control.

Moreover, the systems and structures of commercial airplanes are not designed to withstand the aerodynamic forces experienced during inverted flight. Attempting to fly a large commercial plane upside down would place tremendous stress on the airframe, potentially leading to structural failure.

https://www.aerotime.aero/articles/can-planes-fly-upside-down/amp

Then you have to have the correct fuel system.

Quote
According to Randy, there are two techniques:

"The first is the flop tube design used in my airplane, a Pitts S-1T. The fuel tank is located in the fuselage in front of the pilot's knees, and inside of the tank is a flexible hose with a weight attached to the free end. When the plane is right side up, this hose, or flop tube, 'flops' to the bottom of the tank because of the weight and draws fuel from the bottom of the tank. When the plane is rolled to inverted, the weight causes to hose to flop to the top of the tank (which is really the bottom now) and draw fuel from there. This is really a cool design because it uses only one tank, and you have access to all the fuel in the tank whether you are right side up or inverted. This design is used on all the high-performance aerobatic airplanes with which I am familiar -- these planes all have a fuel tank in the fuselage.

"My plane and all of the more modern aerobatic planes I have seen are fuel injected. However, some of the older Pitts I have seen have a pressure carb, and it works in inverted flight. "

https://science.howstuffworks.com/transport/flight/modern/question252.htm

Time to Call the FAA! Its not okay Aerobatics in a Piper Cherokee - TakingOff Ep 133

#### JackBlack

• 22468
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #70 on: April 28, 2024, 02:02:58 AM »
How many passenger jets are cleared to do barrel rolls?
This is simply an extreme example to show your claim is wrong.
It demonstrates that water being calm doesn't mean the plane is in level flight and the water is actually showing level.

The more common thing for a jet is a coordinated turn.
That is where they use a combination of control surfaces to have the plane banked, yet still have the apparent downwards force be towards the floor, rather than to Earth.
They even have an instrument called either a turn and slip indicator or a turn coordinator:

That part at the bottom is literally a ball in a tube.

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#### turbonium2

• 1790
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #71 on: April 28, 2024, 02:37:33 AM »
It isn't an illusion, it is simple geometry.
You see based upon angles, not physical height.

It isn't magic, just basic geometry.
For a flat Earth, this should continue forever. For a RE, eventually curvature wins.
This has been explained to you repeatedly.

What we actually view is a surface that appears to be rising up at an angle which also doesn’t exist.

The surface doesn’t have any physical or actual angle going upward over it, nor is it physically rising upward , yet to us, we see it as if it WERE rising up at a real angle.

These are indeed illusions, when we see something that looks to be happening, but is not happening at all.

It is not an illusion when we see objects in the distance smaller than they really are, we know they are not as small as they look to us at a distance. But when we see those objects in the distance appearing to be higher than they really are, on a surface that appears to us as higher than it really is, those are illusions.

Same as when we see train tracks appearing to be converging together and rising up on a rising surface are alli illusions, but it is not an illusion when we see thr train in the distance as smaller than it really is.

Any object seen from a distance will appear smaller than it is when next to you, it is based on their distance away when we see them.

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#### DataOverFlow2022

• 4466
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #72 on: April 28, 2024, 02:52:46 AM »

This is simply an extreme example to show your claim is wrong.
It demonstrates that water being calm doesn't mean the plane is in level flight and the water is actually showing level.

What did I claim for the context of this picture.

https://flatearth.ws/bottled-water

“Also. The water bottle and water shows “level”.  So if it’s not sloshing around, the water level is accurate.”

The passenger jet isn’t flying upside down.

Any evidence the passenger jet is in a barrel roll or turn.

#### JackBlack

• 22468
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #73 on: April 28, 2024, 03:11:23 AM »
What we actually view is a surface that appears to be rising up at an angle which also doesn’t exist.
No, what we see is a surface having an angle to a point on that surface dictated by basic geometry.

yet to us, we see it as if it WERE rising up at a real angle.
No, it doesn't. Again, it is simple geometry.

It is not an illusion when we see objects in the distance smaller than they really are
And likewise, when we see the angular space from level to a point on the surface get smaller with distance, it is not an illusion, it is basic geometry.

Same as when we see train tracks appearing to be converging together and rising up on a rising surface are alli illusions
And this is you just contradicting yourself.
So the angular width of the train tracks getting smaller isn't an illusion, but the angular width getting smaller is an illusion?

You can't have it both ways.

#### JackBlack

• 22468
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #74 on: April 28, 2024, 03:12:05 AM »
What did I claim for the context of this picture.
“Also. The water bottle and water shows “level”.  So if it’s not sloshing around, the water level is accurate.”
Which as demonstrated is not substantiated.
The water not sloshing around does not mean the water level is accurate.

Any evidence the passenger jet is in a barrel roll or turn.
Any evidence it isn't?

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#### DataOverFlow2022

• 4466
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #75 on: April 28, 2024, 03:39:08 AM »
What did I claim for the context of this picture.
“Also. The water bottle and water shows “level”.  So if it’s not sloshing around, the water level is accurate.”
Which as demonstrated is not substantiated.
The water not sloshing around does not mean the water level is accurate.

Any evidence the passenger jet is in a barrel roll or turn.
Any evidence it isn't?

Nope there isn’t unless you can prove otherwise.  It’s a given you would take such a picture when the jet is levered out not in a transient.  Anything else would be dishonest.

For this picture..

https://flatearth.ws/bottled-water

Any evidence the individual was trying to create a fraud.

The picture was a quick means of showing how a person can use a water bottle at altitude on a passenger jet can see there is a dip of the horizon.  Perry simple concept with no intent of complete accuracy.

If you think the provided picture is erroneous, what you think I the marge of error is.

JackBlack, your being nitpicky over a simple means a common person can see their is a dip to the horizon where there intent of a simple go / no go test of there being a dip of the horizon.  From and aircraft that inst going to barrel roll during normal flight.  And is going to have an extreme slow rate of turn for any normal turn.

Quote
A standard rate turn is defined as a 3° per second turn, which completes a 360° turn in 2 minutes. This is known as a 2-minute turn, or rate one (180°/min). Fast airplanes, or aircraft on certain precision approaches, use a half standard rate ('rate half' in some countries), but the definition of standard rate does not change.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_rate_turn

That part at the bottom is literally a ball in a tube.

Ok?

Which is a specialised narrow curved tube which is different than using a water bottle as a go / no go test for the dip of the horizon once a passenger jet is lined out at altitude.

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#### DataOverFlow2022

• 4466
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #76 on: April 28, 2024, 03:45:13 AM »

That part at the bottom is literally a ball in a tube.

Ok?

Quote
A turn-and-bank indicator tells the pilot the attitude of the plane in the sky relative to the ground. This bank indicator uses a ball and curved glass tube to show rotation about the vertical axis. Gravity holds the ball to the lowest part of the tube, which moves from side to side as the airplane banks. The turn indicator uses a gyroscope to show rotation about the longitudinal axis. It has a pointer that indicates in degrees per unit of time the rate at which the craft is turning.

https://airandspace.si.edu/collection-objects/indicator-turn-and-bank-11/nasm_A19780408000#:~:text=A%20turn%2Dand%2Dbank%20indicator,side%20as%20the%20airplane%20banks.

Which has what to do with using a half empty water bottle as a go / no go test for the dip of the horizon in the picture below

https://flatearth.ws/bottled-water

#### JackBlack

• 22468
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #77 on: April 28, 2024, 04:57:21 AM »
Nope there isn’t unless you can prove otherwise.  It’s a given you would take such a picture when the jet is levered out not in a transient.  Anything else would be dishonest.
That is assuming you realise.
Was the individual in question the pilot?
If not, you need to use visual observations to try to determine if it is in level flight.

But again, this is objecting to your comment that if the water isn't sloshing around it must be accurate.
That simply isn't true.

If you want to appeal to honesty, then there is no need to comment on the water not sloshing around.

It is either ignorant or dishonest to appeal to the water not sloshing around to say it must be accurate.

your being nitpicky over a simple means a common person can see their is a dip to the horizon
No, I'm objecting to the claim that the water not sloshing around means it is accurate.

The picture was a quick means of showing how a person can use a water bottle at altitude on a passenger jet can see there is a dip of the horizon.  Perry simple concept with no intent of complete accuracy.
Which just then raises the question of what level of accuracy, and is it enough to tell if the dip is there?
But for this thread, it appears the picture was provided to show there is a dip angle.

And is going to have an extreme slow rate of turn for any normal turn.
The bank angle is far more important than the rate of turn.
And that bank angle can be 20 degrees.

Compare that to the dip angle to the horizon, given by acos(r/(r+h)).
At an altitude of 10 km, the angle of dip is only ~ 3 degrees.

Ok?
Which is a specialised narrow curved tube which is different than using a water bottle as a go / no go test for the dip of the horizon once a passenger jet is lined out at altitude.
It is a ball in a tube showing what way water would act is down.
If the turn is coordinated, that remains down relative to the plane, not Earth.

Quote
A turn-and-bank indicator tells the pilot the attitude of the plane...
Try a reference which can actually describe it properly, rather than pretending gravity is the only force acting; and that understands the various instruments.
The attitude of the plane is given by the attitude indicator, also known as the artificial horizon.
The position of the ball is based upon the various forces acting on it. If the plane is turning, i.e. accelerating, that will also move the ball.

In a coordinated turn, that remains at the bottom, just like water would.

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#### DataOverFlow2022

• 4466
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #78 on: April 28, 2024, 02:34:02 PM »
Nope there isn’t unless you can prove otherwise.  It’s a given you would take such a picture when the jet is levered out not in a transient.  Anything else would be dishonest.
That is assuming you realise.
Was the individual in question the pilot?
If not, you need to use visual observations to try to determine if it is in level flight.

But again, this is objecting to your comment that if the water isn't sloshing around it must be accurate.
That simply isn't true.

If you want to appeal to honesty, then there is no need to comment on the water not sloshing around.

It is either ignorant or dishonest to appeal to the water not sloshing around to say it must be accurate.

your being nitpicky over a simple means a common person can see their is a dip to the horizon
No, I'm objecting to the claim that the water not sloshing around means it is accurate.

The picture was a quick means of showing how a person can use a water bottle at altitude on a passenger jet can see there is a dip of the horizon.  Perry simple concept with no intent of complete accuracy.
Which just then raises the question of what level of accuracy, and is it enough to tell if the dip is there?
But for this thread, it appears the picture was provided to show there is a dip angle.

And is going to have an extreme slow rate of turn for any normal turn.
The bank angle is far more important than the rate of turn.
And that bank angle can be 20 degrees.

Compare that to the dip angle to the horizon, given by acos(r/(r+h)).
At an altitude of 10 km, the angle of dip is only ~ 3 degrees.

Ok?
Which is a specialised narrow curved tube which is different than using a water bottle as a go / no go test for the dip of the horizon once a passenger jet is lined out at altitude.
It is a ball in a tube showing what way water would act is down.
If the turn is coordinated, that remains down relative to the plane, not Earth.

Quote
A turn-and-bank indicator tells the pilot the attitude of the plane...
Try a reference which can actually describe it properly, rather than pretending gravity is the only force acting; and that understands the various instruments.
The attitude of the plane is given by the attitude indicator, also known as the artificial horizon.
The position of the ball is based upon the various forces acting on it. If the plane is turning, i.e. accelerating, that will also move the ball.

In a coordinated turn, that remains at the bottom, just like water would.

With your rant having nothing to do with the context of this picture..

https://flatearth.ws/bottled-water

For something most people can do on a commercial passenger jet when at altitude, not cleared to fly upside down, not cleared to do a barrel roll, and usually takes turns at a rate at or less than 360 degrees in two minutes.  Where the presenter in all honest produced a quick go /no go test for the dip of the horizon.

JackBlack, this is the most over complicated ignorant argument of a hill you choose to die on.

If you don’t like the bottle of water.  Don’t use the bottle of water.  Use a theodolite app like the same site also provides.

https://flatearth.ws/horizon-dip

Or instrumentation from a heads up display?

https://flatearth.ws/flight-instrument

Now.  What percent errors for each case above compared to your prized fixed position test for dip of the horizon below.  And what is easier for most people to use?

https://flatearth.ws/water-level-horizon

JackBlack, you pick the most ignorant things to get pissy about.   You must be a hoot at parties.  Hey, go ask jack about using a water bottle on a commercial passenger jet to prove dip of the horizon.  Get the guy really going.  Then also provide pictures using a heads up display instrumentation, and a theodolite smart phone app showing dip off the horizon.  Then show him fixed position water bottles showing dip of the horizon.  Then ask him to show the percentage of error from all examples.

😂😂😂😂😂

« Last Edit: April 28, 2024, 02:46:16 PM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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#### DataOverFlow2022

• 4466
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #79 on: April 28, 2024, 02:46:34 PM »

It is either ignorant or dishonest to appeal to the water not sloshing around to say it must be accurate.

Because for this example…

https://flatearth.ws/bottled-water

Most people have the common sense to use this simple go test for the dip of the horizon at altitude while flying a steady course on a commercial jet not rated to do barrel rolls.

Again.

What is the “error” of the above compared to the below?

https://flatearth.ws/flight-instrument

Looks fucking good enough for most people flying on a commercial jetliner.

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#### DataOverFlow2022

• 4466
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #80 on: April 28, 2024, 02:57:44 PM »

In a coordinated turn, that remains at the bottom, just like water would.

If that was true and constant a bottle or tank of liquid, if pilots could bank on it 🤣”  why do some acrobatic planes have to have special fuel systems that feed off the top or bottom…

Quote
According to Randy, there are two techniques:

"The first is the flop tube design used in my airplane, a Pitts S-1T. The fuel tank is located in the fuselage in front of the pilot's knees, and inside of the tank is a flexible hose with a weight attached to the free end. When the plane is right side up, this hose, or flop tube, 'flops' to the bottom of the tank because of the weight and draws fuel from the bottom of the tank. When the plane is rolled to inverted, the weight causes to hose to flop to the top of the tank (which is really the bottom now) and draw fuel from there. This is really a cool design because it uses only one tank, and you have access to all the fuel in the tank whether you are right side up or inverted. This design is used on all the high-performance aerobatic airplanes with which I am familiar -- these planes all have a fuel tank in the fuselage.

https://science.howstuffworks.com/transport/flight/modern/question252.htm

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#### DataOverFlow2022

• 4466
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #81 on: April 28, 2024, 03:07:30 PM »
Hmm..

It is a ball in a tube showing what way water would act is down.
If the turn is coordinated, that remains down relative to the plane, not Earth.

And yet…

“When the plane is right side up, this hose, or flop tube, 'flops' to the bottom of the tank because of the weight and draws fuel from the bottom of the tank. When the plane is rolled to inverted, the weight causes to hose to flop to the top of the tank (which is really the bottom now) and draw fuel from there.”
https://science.howstuffworks.com/transport/flight/modern/question252.htm

Seems pilots in acrobatic planes count on the fuel being down relative to earth, not fuel remaining at the “bottom” of a tank with a fixed suction off the “bottom” of the tank? Vs a weighted hose that can chase fuel as the fuel chases down relative to earth.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2024, 03:09:22 PM by DataOverFlow2022 »

#### JackBlack

• 22468
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #82 on: April 29, 2024, 02:47:04 AM »
For something most people can do on a commercial passenger jet when at altitude, not cleared to fly upside down, not cleared to do a barrel roll, and usually takes turns at a rate at or less than 360 degrees in two minutes.  Where the presenter in all honest produced a quick go /no go test for the dip of the horizon.
Do you understand the difference between bank angle and rate of turn?

JackBlack, this is the most over complicated ignorant argument of a hill you choose to die on.
Again, YOU were the one that so boldly proclaimed that he water not sloshing around means it is accurate.
That is not the case at all.

If you wanted, you could have just accepted that and said it is just an example, but this is the hill you appear to have chosen to die on.

Use a theodolite app like the same site also provides.
You mean one based upon an accelerometer which suffers the same issues, as well as calibration issues?

Or instrumentation from a heads up display?
Even less useful, especially for your claim, unless you can fully demonstrate that the heads up display actually shows the position of level to match a hypothetical level horizon regardless of where you look at it from, instead of just mostly arbitrarily projecting a hud onto a piece of glass, it is entirely useless as just that image.
But it does have the advantage of using the instruments which use gyroscopes instead of a bottle of water.

One obvious problem with the image is the angle of the horizon.
At that altitude, the horizon, ignoring refraction, should be at roughly -3.8 degrees, but in the image (and the video) it appears below that.

But it is even more pointless for your idea because most people wont be able to get into the cockpit.

What percent errors for each case above compared to your prized fixed position test for dip of the horizon below.  And what is easier for most people to use?
Error isn't really the issue. The issue is uncertainty.

If you are standing on a mountain, unless there is a land slide, you can be fairly confident you don't have acceleration throwing you off, especially if you believe Earth is flat and stationary.

You don't need the setup with the tubes, that was just to make it more visually appealing. You can still just use a water bottle.

JackBlack, you pick the most ignorant things to get pissy about.
You are the one getting pissy here.
I objected to your claim that the water not sloshing about means it must be accurate.
That is not the case.
Instead of accepting that, you appear to be doing whatever you can to avoid it.

Most people have the common sense to use this simple go test for the dip of the horizon at altitude while flying a steady course on a commercial jet not rated to do barrel rolls.
Most people have the common sense to know Earth is round and not care about this at all.
How many people have you seen try this on a plane? I don't know of any.

In a coordinated turn, that remains at the bottom, just like water would.
If that was true and constant a bottle or tank of liquid, if pilots could bank on it 🤣”  why do some acrobatic planes have to have special fuel systems that feed off the top or bottom…
Because with acrobatics, they typically aren't just doing coordinated turns.

For example, some times they will fly upside down.

And yet…
And yet...

The video shows you are wrong.
Deal with it.

Or continue being pissy about ignorant things and pick this as your hill to die on.

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#### DataOverFlow2022

• 4466
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #83 on: April 29, 2024, 03:31:34 AM »

Do you understand the difference between bank angle and rate of turn?

Which has nothing to do with this argument.

Like most people understand not to use a spirit level to level a picture during an earthquake.  Like most people understand sea level vs storm surge.

Again.  For the context of this picture.

https://flatearth.ws/bottled-water

Where commercial passenger jets are not rated to fly upside down, not rated for barrel rolls, and most people have the common sense and have the understanding a high g turn would throw the results.  But how many times do commercial passer jets do high g turns?  Where you can do this little water bottle exercise at altitude flying straight.

I asked you to compare the error from doing the above exercise at steady state vs other results?

Did you do that?

https://flatearth.ws/horizon-dip

Or instrumentation from a heads up display?

https://flatearth.ws/flight-instrument

Now.  What percent errors for each case above compared to your prized fixed position test for dip of the horizon below.  And what is easier for most people to use?

https://flatearth.ws/water-level-horizon

😂😂😂😂😂

« Last Edit: April 29, 2024, 03:43:22 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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#### DataOverFlow2022

• 4466
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #84 on: April 29, 2024, 03:41:35 AM »

Most people understand the context of the below picture.

https://flatearth.ws/bottled-water

While flying on a commercial passenger jet.

I asked you a question,  what commercial passenger is rated for a barrel roll.

For your video.  Why was the question asked to the pilot if the aircraft could be rolled?  Why do you thank that was an import question?

Are most commercial passenger jets rated to barrel roll?  Other than a mechanical failure, or an emergency, when were you on a commercial passenger jet flight that barrel rolled?

Again.  Most people have the common sense to do the exercise when the jet is lined out at attitude.  Like most people understand the difference between sea level vs storm surge.

If you want JackBlack, keep arguing with yourself.  You really do look stupid in this case. And pathetic.

Again.

There’s the right way.  The wrong way.  And the cult of Jack.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2024, 03:47:55 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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#### DataOverFlow2022

• 4466
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #85 on: April 29, 2024, 04:06:25 AM »
Shrugs…

Quote

It’s Possible to Roll This Airplane

https://www.flyingmag.com/safety-accident-investigations-its-possible-roll-airplane/

Almost any airplane can be rolled, but few can be rolled legally. Normal and utility category airplanes are not permitted to exceed a bank angle of 60 degrees. Only acrobatic category airplanes may be rolled, and then only when the occupants are equipped with parachutes.

#### JackBlack

• 22468
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #86 on: April 29, 2024, 05:18:55 AM »
Which has nothing to do with this argument.
As a reminder, this is the key part of this argument:
So if it’s not sloshing around, the water level is accurate.
Your statement that is factually incorrect.
Rather than act like an adult, admit you were incorrect and move on, you throwing a tantrum.

If you want to bring up how slow planes turn, you need to use the bank angle, as that would be the point of issue here, not the rate of turn.

Where commercial passenger jets are not rated to fly upside down, not rated for barrel rolls
Yet still carry out coordinated turns.
And yet you still talk about craft for aerobatics which are designed for flying upside down.

most people have the common sense and have the understanding a high g turn would throw the results.
It doesn't need to be a high g turn.

Now.  What percent errors for each case above compared to your prized fixed position test for dip of the horizon below.  And what is easier for most people to use?
Again, the issue is the uncertainty.
Anyone climbing a mountain can use a water bottle as well.

I asked you a question,  what commercial passenger is rated for a barrel roll.
An entirely irrelevant question.
You don't need to perform the barrel roll.
You can do it in a coordinated turn.

Yet you keep clinging to this irrelevant BS to deflect from the fact your claim is wrong.

Is the water sloshing around in that video? NO!
So according to your false claim, it accurately shows level the entire time, even when it is sideways.

Why do you thank that was an import question?
Because just like so many FEers, you are looking for a pathetic excuse to avoid being wrong.

If you want JackBlack, keep arguing with yourself.  You really do look stupid in this case. And pathetic.
Great job projecting.

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#### Themightykabool

• 10971
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #87 on: April 29, 2024, 06:32:57 AM »
Yes we understood your point dta

However you dont undedstand youre argument wasnt quite solid as you think it as exained with g force and banked turns

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#### DataOverFlow2022

• 4466
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #88 on: April 29, 2024, 07:02:43 AM »

As a reminder, this is the key part of this argument:

Yes we understood your point dta

However you dont undedstand youre argument wasnt quite solid as you think it as exained with g force and banked turns

Sigh.

Again.  Context of this picture.

https://flatearth.ws/bottled-water

Shows no sign of occurring during a “g turn” on a commercial passenger jet at altitude where most people have the common sense to do this while the jet is flying lined out like most people understand the difference between sea level vs storm surge.

Care to use the examples below to show how much error you can prove in the picture above. The argument is equated to you shouldn’t use a spirit level because earthquakes.

https://flatearth.ws/horizon-dip

https://flatearth.ws/flight-instrument

Now.  What percent errors for each case above compared to your prized fixed position test for dip of the horizon below.  And what is easier for most people to use?

https://flatearth.ws/water-level-horizon

😂😂😂😂😂

You can use common sense and understand it’s a simple go no go test for dip of the horizon, and not do it during a “g turn” in a passenger jet which occurs how often when most turns are limited to 360 degrees every two minute.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2024, 07:14:54 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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#### DataOverFlow2022

• 4466
##### Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #89 on: April 29, 2024, 07:12:17 AM »

As I explained before, a good pilot

A good pilot knows not to break the law and reframes from doing barrel rolls in aircraft not rated for such a maneuver which is a majority of civilian aircraft where passenger jets usually limit their turns to a rate of 360 degrees every 2 minutes.