Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo

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JackBlack

  • 22154
Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2024, 12:48:34 PM »
Itís not magic when a horizon appears at the end of a rising up surface, right?
If that surface is round, or you reach the end, no, as it is simple geometry.
If that surface is flat, and the horizon is not the edge, then yes, it is magic, as it defies simple geometry.

The simple way to understand is to consider a point on the surface beyond the horizon, and consider the path of light from that surface to your eyes.
For a round surface, that path goes through the surface, with the surface blocking the view.
For a flat surface, it remains above it, with pure magic blocking the view.
I also notice you entirely ignored this:
Again, this is the RE:


Initially the angle of elevation to the ground will increase (i.e. the angle gets higher) until you reach a line which goes tangent to Earth, and then it drops back down.
Your line of sight to the object beyond the horizon needs to pass through Earth, which means Earth blocks the view.

No magic needed.

Conversely, this is for a FE:

There is NOTHING to produce the horizon.
There is no mechanism for it. There is no reason for it.
Instead, the ground beyond is still at a HIGHER angle, meaning it should continue to "appear to rise" rather than produce a horizon.
The more distant object still has a clear path from it to your eyes, with nothing blocking the view.

So instead, you need this:

The magical horizon magically forms when the magic kicks in to magically start hiding things and magically making them appear magically lower (the latter not shown in this).
This magic then magically blocks the view to objects beyond the magical horizon to magically make them appear to sink, and this magically includes magically blocking the view to the land beyond magical horizon causing the magical horizon to form.

So FE needs magic. RE needs basic geometry.

Why should anyone accept your delusional claims that a flat surface should produce a horizon?
Especially when a round surface explains it so well, with you needing to contradict yourself and assert pure BS to pretend it doesn't; while also contradicting yourself to pretend a flat surface should?


Why should a flat surface produce a horizon?
What MAGIC is causing this?
What MAGIC causes perspective to stop, so a more distant point on the ground (or object above it) magically doesn't appear at a greater angle of elevation as basic geometry and perspective demand?
What MAGIC causes the bottom of objects to be magically hidden when there is NOTHING to block the view? And what MAGIC causes them to appear to sink?

Until you can explain this magic, the horizon and the behaviour of objects near it, is clear proof that Earth is round.

Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2024, 11:30:33 PM »

If that surface is round, or you reach the end, no, as it is simple geometry.

There is NOTHING to produce the horizon.
There is no mechanism for it. There is no reason for it.
Instead, the ground beyond is still at a HIGHER angle, meaning it should continue to "appear to rise" rather than produce a horizon.
The more distant object still has a clear path from it to your eyes, with nothing blocking the view.


So you think a flat surface would keep rising more and more beyond three miles away, and weíd see the sky blocked out by a 50 mile high or more flat surface, which keeps rising up when the entire sky is blocked out by it, and a ship rising up over 50 miles high, then?

If so, how would we anything past the surface which blocks out the whole sky by that point?

If you believe a flat surface rises forever, until we see the whole sky above blocks out by an ever rising surface, then you couldnít see all things on the surface, because it rises up and blocks anything past it being seen.

So this is your conflicting argument. You say a flat surface always would appear to rise, which obviously would block from view anything that is on the flat surface after rising up so high it blocks out the sky past it!!


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JackBlack

  • 22154
Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2024, 02:24:00 AM »
So you think a flat surface would keep rising more and more beyond three miles away
YES, because that is what the math shows.

weíd see the sky blocked out by a 50 mile high or more flat surface, which keeps rising up when the entire sky is blocked out by it
No. Why would you say such dishonest BS?

Again, it rises, and APPROACHES 0 degrees. It never goes beyond that.
But any point of land will be at a higher angle of elevation than all the land before it.
Any object on the ground will be, at its lowest point, at a greater angle of elevation than all the land before it.

This will never stop.
The land and object will NEVER be blocked from view.


So this is your conflicting argument.
No. This is a conflict with a strawman you have constructed.
As I said before, it continues to rise forever at a decreasing rate, approaching 0.

It will never go ABOVE 0 degrees.

You instead blatantly lie and pretend I am saying it will go all the way up to 90 degrees to block out everything.

Again, simple geometry. Try addressing it:
Again, this is the RE:


Initially the angle of elevation to the ground will increase (i.e. the angle gets higher) until you reach a line which goes tangent to Earth, and then it drops back down.
Your line of sight to the object beyond the horizon needs to pass through Earth, which means Earth blocks the view.

No magic needed.

Conversely, this is for a FE:

There is NOTHING to produce the horizon.
There is no mechanism for it. There is no reason for it.
Instead, the ground beyond is still at a HIGHER angle, meaning it should continue to "appear to rise" rather than produce a horizon.
The more distant object still has a clear path from it to your eyes, with nothing blocking the view.

So instead, you need this:

The magical horizon magically forms when the magic kicks in to magically start hiding things and magically making them appear magically lower (the latter not shown in this).
This magic then magically blocks the view to objects beyond the magical horizon to magically make them appear to sink, and this magically includes magically blocking the view to the land beyond magical horizon causing the magical horizon to form.

So FE needs magic. RE needs basic geometry.

Why should anyone accept your delusional claims that a flat surface should produce a horizon?
Especially when a round surface explains it so well, with you needing to contradict yourself and assert pure BS to pretend it doesn't; while also contradicting yourself to pretend a flat surface should?


Why should a flat surface produce a horizon?
What MAGIC is causing this?
What MAGIC causes perspective to stop, so a more distant point on the ground (or object above it) magically doesn't appear at a greater angle of elevation as basic geometry and perspective demand?
What MAGIC causes the bottom of objects to be magically hidden when there is NOTHING to block the view? And what MAGIC causes them to appear to sink?

Until you can explain this magic, the horizon and the behaviour of objects near it, is clear proof that Earth is round.

No pathetic strawmen, actually address that.

You not liking basic geometry, and instead lying about what I am suggesting wont help you. It just further demonstrates your dishonsety.

Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2024, 12:45:40 AM »
Horizons, purely by coincidence, form at the end of s surface that appears to rise up due to perspective.

They form on top of a surface formed by perspective, so it is also due to perspective.

You seem to believe perspective only makes the surface appear to rise, and would rise forever upward, if it was a flat surface, and it only forms on a surface that curves downward, to stop this endless perspective from acting on the surface.

The curve isnít ever seen, it hides beneath the flat surface as it appears to rise upward, and hides behind the flat horizon while curving it with an unseen curve back of it.

The curve does so much here yet is never at all seen as a curve! A magical phantom curve it is!




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JackBlack

  • 22154
Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2024, 01:08:50 AM »
Horizons, purely by coincidence, form at the end of s surface that appears to rise up due to perspective.
You mean purely by your dishonest BS to make it magically work on a flat surface, even though you can't explain what magic causes this?

Again, we see horizons form at the EDGE of a flat surface, i.e. where the flat surface ends.
And we see them form on a round surface.

You seem to believe perspective only makes the surface appear to rise, and would rise forever upward, if it was a flat surface, and it only forms on a surface that curves downward, to stop this endless perspective from acting on the surface.
Yes, because that is what basic geometry demands.

The curve isnít ever seen
Again, seeing the horizon is seeing the curve.
Seeing objects go over the horizon and appear to sink is seeing the curve.

How do you recognise a round object? The horizon.

Repeatedly ignoring the curve because you are desperate for Earth to be flat wont help you.

Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2024, 09:30:06 AM »
Kudos to your patience, dataoverflow!

Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2024, 12:25:15 AM »
Horizons are not edges of any surface, edges are cut lines on surfaces, nothing at all to do with horizons.

Any surface can be cut off somewhere, do you think they are all horizons? Thatís absurd.


Horizons do not exist, there are no actual lines on the surface of Earth, they are illusions which appear to us on the surface, and that goes for ALL surfaces, if any others existed and large enough to form them.

When you see that the surface always seems to rise upward, although itís not, what matters is what we see, which isnít real, has further implications beyond seeing something that isnít real, not true, but when we see it that way, illusions become the reality, and the reality doesnít exist anymore.

That we see things that arenít true, not really as we see them as, makes them our reality, and real problems occur from it.

What Iíve explained about horizons forming on any long enough surface is true. The fact that we see a horizon much higher than we see from, can easily be demonstrated. If you look up to the 2nd floor of a building, that is much like a horizon is seen by us. While the horizon only appears that high, and the 2nd floor really is that high, they are both that high to us, to what we see, to our reality of what we see.

It doesnít matter if itís really that high or not, because they are real to us, a boat really rises upward on a really rising up surface, because we donít see them stay the same height. That the surface doesnít really rise up doesnít matter, itís what we see of it that matters. The result is a surface that looks much higher than we are. That we cannot look from above it at that height. We can see over the nearby surface, until it appears to rise up higher than we can see over it. 

The illusion of a rising surface is only part of what happens due to perspective, it also makes horizons appear on surfaces, and all surfaces form them, if seen outward at least 3 miles out, in most cases, less for curved downward surfaces, and they do not look the same as other surfaces do. They cannot, they are all different surfaces, all look different, and perspective doesnít magically transform how they look.

If you think the surface is curved, how can a flat surface look any more flat than it already does now? It canít look any flatter than it is now, so how could it change anything we see now?

How could horizons be any straighter and horizontal than they already are now? They canít get any straighter than they are, so how can the surface be curved, if all the surface, all horizons, are completely flat and straight?


Thereís no more flatness and straightness of the surface than there already is now.

Trying to shove in a curved surface isnít going to make it become curved, or real, just because you want a ball Earth to be real, itís not going to happen, ever.


Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2024, 01:20:35 AM »

Horizons do not exist,

There why is there an observable and measurable dip to the horizon.  Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by the Blackpool Photo

. And you keep derailing this thread.  Why are the mountains in the background of the Blackpool Photo not above the tower as predicted by flat earth.  But the tops appear lower than the tower as accurately predicted by a measurable curvature of the earth.


Again..

Using surveying and the dip of the horizon, itís long been known that you can calculate the curvature of the earth.



Which can be verified.

Quote

Rainy Lake Experiment: Conclusion

http://walter.bislins.ch/bloge/index.asp?page=Rainy+Lake+Experiment%3A+Conclusion

Summary
All data and observations agree with the predictions of the Globe Model, which includes Terrestrial Refraction. The predictions for the Flat Earth Model, however, contradict the observations.
The Rainy Lake Experiment shows even better than the Bedford Level Experiment

 that the earth is a globe, since we also have GPS measurements that are not influenced by Refraction or Perspective, but are of a pure geometric nature. GPS measurements directly provide the radius of the earth.
Only one conclusion remains:
The earth cannot be flat, but is a globe with a mean radius of 6371 km!


« Last Edit: March 03, 2024, 02:48:38 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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Apple Scruff

  • Flat Earth Believer
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Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2024, 01:27:41 AM »
Maybe this video may help some out & put to rest about the curvature of the earth.



This is the short version of a longer video I will put up showing the results of my trip across Lake Michigan, wherein we saw Chicago the whole time for nearly 46 miles. This one just gives the highlights of the journey. In the longer video, I will explain more about the trip, the observations we had during it and my more recent conclusions based on the past year's worth of research.



Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2024, 01:40:45 AM »
Maybe this video may help some out & put to rest about the curvature of the earth.

Which has nothing to do with the opening post of this thread.

  Why are the mountains in the background of the Blackpool Photo not above the tower as predicted by flat earth.  But the tops appear lower than the tower as accurately predicted by a measurable curvature of the earth.




 wherein we saw Chicago the whole time for nearly 46 miles. .

Which has been addressed numerous times in other threads.

Where you can see the top of the Chicago buildings across the lake from the top of a 200 foot tall hill.  And how much of the buildings you can see is dependent on the weather and amount of refraction?

Quote
Four cases together show beyond a reasonable doubt the earth is curved

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=91626.0

Part one. First refraction. 

Refraction over simplified leads to how much of a distance target can be seen through mirage.  The new well known example is Chicago.

Quote

Skyline Skepticism: The Lake Michigan Mirage

https://www.abc57.com/news/mirage-of-chicago-skyline-seen-from-michigan-shoreline

To those that doubt affects of refraction. The full Chicago skyline should be visible all the time if it weren't the case, barring clouds, rain or fog. However thatís not the case, it is always changing. I encourage anyone to go look for themselves.

Flat eartherís ignore certain factors when using the Chicago skyline.  Such as, the pictures used are often from Tower Hill.

Quote
The distance from Warren Dunes state park is about 53 miles across the lake to Chicago. Someone thatís six feet tall standing on the lake shore can only see about three miles to the horizon. If you climb to the top of Tower Hill (250ft) you can see almost 20 miles to the horizon

https://www.abc57.com/news/skyline-skepticism-the-lake-michigan-mirage

And atmospheric conditions that change the amount of atmospheric refraction will change how much of the Chicagoís skyline that can be seen.  Seen as in the visible length of buildings. 

Quote

On a normal sunny day, say in summer you can only see a dozen or so of Chicagoís tallest buildings from southwest Michigan. Yes, you can see Chicago, just not all of it.
ďAnything more than that, especially when you get above 10 or 12, something's happening, because that's not usually there," Nowicki said.
That something is a strong temperature inversion, warmer air above colder air, that causes light to bend.
ďA mirage is just a case of atmospheric refraction, itís caused by the fact you have temperature variations in the atmosphere and these cause density variations.Ē  says Doctor Mark Rennie, an associate professor in areo-optics at the University of Notre Dame. ďSo literally the speed of light varies within the air. And this variation of the speed of light has the effect of bending light rays."

https://www.abc57.com/news/skyline-skepticism-the-lake-michigan-mirage


The fact you need to stand on a 250 foot hill, and the changing visibility of building lengths is strong evidence the earth is curved.    And refraction is a factor that canít be ignored, and most be factored for. 

If you doubt refraction, do you believe this is a real double decker ship?




If the earth is flat, why must one climb a hill over 200 tall to see the tops of builds where the amount of how much height of the buildings that can be seen is based on how much refraction?


If you want to post about the Chicago skyline after it has been thoroughly covered.  Use the thread it is discussed in.

Four cases together show beyond a reasonable doubt the earth is curved

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=91626.0
« Last Edit: March 03, 2024, 02:40:51 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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JackBlack

  • 22154
Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2024, 02:53:59 AM »
Horizons are not edges of any surface, edges are cut lines on surfaces, nothing at all to do with horizons.
You not liking reality doesn't changes.

For a flat surface, the horizon IS THE EDGE!

Any surface can be cut off somewhere, do you think they are all horizons?
Cut off in what way?

Horizons do not exist
They clearly do, and are observed all the time.
There is no evidence that they are in any way illusions.
Instead, they are the limit of what can be seen.

When you see that the surface always seems to rise upward, although itís not, what matters is what we see, which isnít real, has further implications beyond seeing something that isnít real, not true, but when we see it that way, illusions become the reality, and the reality doesnít exist anymore.
Again, present it honestly.
The surface appears at a higher angle of elevation.
When you present it in this honest manner, there is nothing false or illusory about it.
But doing it honestly destroys your fantasy.

What Iíve explained about horizons forming on any long enough surface is true.
You haven't explained anything.

If you look up to the 2nd floor of a building, that is much like a horizon is seen by us.
If you are looking up, that is nothing like how the horizon is seen.
Not unless that horizon is formed by a mountain.


It doesnít matter if itís really that high or not, because they are real to us, a boat really rises upward on a really rising up surface
No, it doesn't.
It follows the simple rules of geometry and appears at a greater angle of elevation.

We can see over the nearby surface, until it appears to rise up higher than we can see over it.
Except as demonstrated previously, it slows down so it never gets higher than us.
So why doesn't it continue?
Because Earth is round.

The illusion of a rising surface is only part of what happens due to perspective, it also makes horizons appear on surfaces
No, it doesn't.
The "horizon" from perspective is infinitely far away.

they do not look the same as other surfaces do.
In what way do they look different?
Can you explain, or can you just spout vague BS?

Tell me exactly how they appear different.

Because I can point out a very simple difference.
Flat surfaces do not have horizons. Curved surfaces do.

And what do we have in reality? A surface with a horizon.

If you think the surface is curved, how can a flat surface look any more flat than it already does now?
By not having a horizon.
By not having objects going over that horizon disappear from the bottom up.

How could horizons be any straighter and horizontal than they already are now?
If the surface was flat, they wouldn't exist.
Take a look at a tiny ball. How far away is the horizon from the point directly towards your eyes? What about a much larger ball? And then larger still?
Again, the distance to the horizon is basic geometry:
d=r*acos(r/(r+h))
As the radius of the ball gets larger, the distance to the horizon increases.
A flat surface is the limit as r approaches infinity, at which point the distance approaches infinity.

So if the surface was flatter, the horizon would be further away.
If the surface was flat, the horizon would be infinitely far away, or the edge of the surface.
Simple geometry.

They canít get any straighter than they are, so how can the surface be curved, if all the surface, all horizons, are completely flat and straight?
Who cares about your fantasy?
How about we stick to reality, where horizons are roughly circles?
i.e. the intersection of a plane and a sphere?
Just like you would expect for a round Earth?
And nothing like you would expert for a flat Earth?

Trying to shove in a curved surface isnít going to make it become curved, or real, just because you want a ball Earth to be real, itís not going to happen, ever.
Lying wont magically make Earth flat.

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JackBlack

  • 22154
Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2024, 02:58:24 AM »
Maybe this video may help some out & put to rest about the curvature of the earth.
You mean how the bottoms of the buildings are missing, clearly demonstrating curvature?
Thanks for putting your fantasy to rest.

Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2024, 03:10:24 AM »
So curvature only blocks their bottoms, not the rest of them?

If it blocks the bottom at some distance away, it would block the rest, upward, until not seen at all, right?

Where is the rest of them being blocked out, or just the bottom parts?

In fact, that would show if it IS blocked by a curve or not, if it blocks the rest of it seen further away from them, would it not?

It doesnít block the rest of them, does it? It doesnít block the bottoms, or block anything.

Show me a high rise blocked from the bottom up, until itís completely blocked from sight.

Iím sure you can show me that, canít you?

Go ahead then

Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2024, 03:56:34 AM »
So curvature only blocks their bottoms, not the rest of them?

Depends how far relatively over the horizon like a sunset.


Or as seen in this example of the amount the curvature hides the Turning Torso Tower bottom up as the person increases distance from the tower.





Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2024, 04:00:23 AM »

Go ahead then

How about you stop derailing this thread and stick to the argument of the opening post.

Why are the mountains in the background of the Blackpool Photo not above the tower as predicted by flat earth.  But the tops appear lower than the tower as accurately predicted by a measurable curvature of the earth.


Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2024, 04:51:18 AM »
So curvature only blocks their bottoms, not the rest of them?

If it blocks the bottom at some distance away, it would block the rest, upward, until not seen at all, right?

Where is the rest of them being blocked out, or just the bottom parts?

In fact, that would show if it IS blocked by a curve or not, if it blocks the rest of it seen further away from them, would it not?

It doesnít block the rest of them, does it? It doesnít block the bottoms, or block anything.

Show me a high rise blocked from the bottom up, until itís completely blocked from sight.

Iím sure you can show me that, canít you?

Go ahead then

You really are a flattard aren't you?

You think there are no videos out there taken from a person at the back of a boat or ship, filming the city they just left port from, and around 5m to 10km out to sea, recording that city skyline disappearing from the bottom up?

Hire a boat and film the city skyline disappearing from the bottom up, yourself, or find some lousy videos of others doing it.

Tell me something Turbonium. What kind of an absolute moron would think the average man on the street can't easily prove Earth curvature?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2024, 04:39:04 AM by Smoke Machine »

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JackBlack

  • 22154
Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #46 on: March 03, 2024, 11:48:09 AM »
So curvature only blocks their bottoms, not the rest of them?
No. It starts at the bottom, and works it way up as the object goes further past the horizon.

In fact, that would show if it IS blocked by a curve or not, if it blocks the rest of it seen further away from them, would it not?
So you accept that it is a curve?

Show me a high rise blocked from the bottom up, until itís completely blocked from sight.
With the exception of the very end point, you have been provided that or things comparable to that countless times.

But notice how yet again you fail to provide any explanation of the magic that would allow this on your fantasy Earth?
It is as if you know there is no possible way for it to happen, so you need to continually lie and deflect to pretend your fantasy works.

Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #47 on: March 09, 2024, 10:03:24 PM »
While Iím still waiting for your latest excuse about your flat surface that would offer us an infinite view of the entire surface and all things which are on it, while rising up higher than the visible skies in all directions around us, because if not endlessly rising higher and higher, it would be blocked out by the highest point we can see from that point, perhaps a little further out, until it is too far out while hardly rising up, so the angle of our view past its highest point seen, from there, is already blocking out part of the sky, three miles away, and more important, this 3 miles of surface, is entirely SEEN over that three miles, so if you believe weíd see all of the flat surface beyond that, over thousands of miles of a flat surface, youíre dreaming, since it would continue to be fully visible until rising so high, or appearing to be, same as before, at 3 miles out, weíd soon see nothing BUT a wall of the surface, nothing would ever be seen past that distance out.

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JackBlack

  • 22154
Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2024, 12:54:13 AM »
While Iím still waiting for your latest excuse about your flat surface that would offer us an infinite view of the entire surface and all things which are on it
I'm still waiting on you to explain why perspective magically stop and what is magically blocking the view.
I don't really care about your repeated lies about the Earth magically rising up to block the entire sky.

because if not endlessly rising higher and higher
Endlessly rising does not mean it will reach an infinite height.
There are plenty of sequences, where the sum continues to increase, but it never goes above a certain value.
Perhaps the most commonly known is 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + ..., which never goes above 2.
Likewise, as explained to you repeatedly, a flat surface will continue to rise at a decreasing rate, approaching 0.

The "highest point" would be infinitely far away.

hardly rising up, so the angle of our view past its highest point seen
Hardly rising up, is still rising, so it is not past the highest point.
Yet again you spout pure BS which is trivial to show is wrong and a child could understand.

So yet again, you display either pure stupidity or blatant dishonesty to try to justify your delusional BS.

Stop with the pathetic deflections and tell us what is magically blocking the view.

Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2024, 01:25:19 AM »
Then try to draw what you think it would look like that way. Saying what it would do, does not work in reality.

You have to continue to see the entire surface beyond three miles out, but if it rises less and less with more distance, your angle of view over it is smaller and smaller over more of the surface.

Look at a ship nearly at the horizon. When it sails beyond that point, how can you still see the next three miles of surface and the ship on it, when youíre viewing less of the surface than before that?

It is impossible to see thousands of miles of surface, from your angle of view over it in thousands of miles. Physically and geometrically impossible to see the entire surface at a sliver of angles viewing from that point.


Thatís why I want you to draw it out, show me how youíd see thousands of miles of a flat surface with ever less rising of it, show me how high you think it would be at a thousand miles and see it all, see a ship thatís a thousand miles away on it, because it canít be drawn. Itís not possible to draw it. But prove me wrong, if you can.

No more bs talking about it, show it to me, or drop the bs argument youíre making about it. Thatís for fairy tales, not reality.

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JackBlack

  • 22154
Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #50 on: March 10, 2024, 01:37:46 AM »
Then try to draw what you think it would look like that way. Saying what it would do, does not work in reality.
Deal with the question I asked first.
WHAT MAGIC IS BLOCKIGN THE VIEW?

your angle of view over it is smaller and smaller over more of the surface.
Yes, the further away things get, the smaller they are.
But we can still see things being obscured by the horizon when we can still resolve the object.
And zooming in doesn't make the horizon move further away.

Physically and geometrically impossible to see the entire surface at a sliver of angles viewing from that point.
Physically and geometrically it is impossible for the surface to block the view. It will always be visible.

No more bs talking
Follow your own advice. No more BS talking. Tell us what is blocking the view.

Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #51 on: March 10, 2024, 03:14:20 AM »


No more bs talking about it, show it to me, or drop the bs argument youíre making about it. Thatís for fairy tales, not reality.


And.  AgainÖ



No, you only need a flat surface 3 miles long, or less than that when viewed nearer to the surface. 



Do you read what is actually posted?

360 steps.  About 750 feet. No flash.


The light bulb is only about 1/2 inch off the ground. 

25Ē per step times 360 steps comes to an estimate of 750 feet.  Or 9000 inches.  With the light bulb about .5 inches off the track.   If you divide .5 inches height by 9000 inches length , you get a height to length ratio of 0.000055555555556.

Again.  For a 300 mile height for a flat earth sun, at 12,000 miles length maximum viewing distance.  300 miles divided by 12,000 miles equals 0.025.

For the flashlight viewed at 9,000 inches,  to get a ratio of 0.025 height to distance.  9,000 inches multiplied by 0.025 comes to the flashlight being a height of 225 inches above the track. 

For a more accurate scale model of the sun.  The flash light would be around 18 feet above the track to keep the same scale as the flat earth scenario. I have gave advantage to perspective by placing it right on top of the track. And the flat surface still failed to block the flashing from view.


My experiments give every advantage to perspective, and more so than the observed world.

 Perspective dose not physically blocked an object from view.



Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #52 on: March 10, 2024, 04:04:33 AM »
Flat Earthers don't realise what they really are. They are people who recognise their immediate environment as we all do in our day to day life, but they can't see outside that. They don't even want to see outside their immediate environment life, as they have no interest in proving the shape of their flat world belief.

The moment they accept this, they can move on with their lives, and stop with their madness of constantly trying to prove the Earth is an undistinguished flat plane.

They are people who will never take space travel seriously, and who cares?

Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #53 on: March 10, 2024, 04:37:16 AM »
Then try to draw what you think it would look like that way. Saying what it would do, does not work in reality.
Deal with the question I asked first.
WHAT MAGIC IS BLOCKIGN THE VIEW?

your angle of view over it is smaller and smaller over more of the surface.
Yes, the further away things get, the smaller they are.
But we can still see things being obscured by the horizon when we can still resolve the object.
And zooming in doesn't make the horizon move further away.

Physically and geometrically impossible to see the entire surface at a sliver of angles viewing from that point.
Physically and geometrically it is impossible for the surface to block the view. It will always be visible.

No more bs talking
Follow your own advice. No more BS talking. Tell us what is blocking the view.

It will not always be visible, while it is physically there TO see, if our eyes were physically designed to see all things out to infinity, when we are capable of seeing them physically, at some angle of view.

But again, our eyes will see a rising surface which doesnít rise at all, and that is what becomes the reality to us. It doesnít matter if we know itís not rising, have proof and measurements that show it isnít rising, but thatís still what we see it do, with our eyes.

So when we do NOT see the real, physically not rising surface, DOES look like itís rising, we donít see whatís past the high up horizons, because the horizon is the limiting point of our view of things. The surface looks higher than it is, but does that matter to us? Our eyes and our instruments that are all based on our eyes, were not built to see everything in the distance. We have two eyes to see what distance things are from us, but they have to be close enough to us to see them in the distance.

What you would believe is that our eyes and instruments based on our eyes, would be able to see things out to infinity just because they are not physically blocked out, so weíd see things out to infinity with our instruments, if they have the capability to see them.

You believe everything which isnít physically blocked out, would be seen with enough magnification.

Our instruments see the same rising surface we see by eye, they do not remove that illusion we see, because instruments are based on our eyes, see what we can see, or would see if our eyes were able to magnify things we could see.

Instruments cannot see through the illusions we see, cannot see the surface not rising up in the distance, cannot see parallel lines remaining parallel in the distance.

We always see or donít see things which canít explained in physical terms.

When we see horizons rise up high enough to see from above them, which we cannot, as they are higher than we are, and cannot see over things higher than our eyes can see, which they are, it is our own eyes which determine what is real, what cannot be seen over or seen from above them.

There doesnít need to be a physically blocked out surface in order to not see it, our eyes arenít based on what is real or physically there, thatís not how our eyes work.


Illusions are not real or physically there, but we see them as real, and physically there. This leads to your misunderstanding of how illusions work, that you cannot take an illusion of a rising surface and change it into a real horizon on the top of that illusion. They are both illusions, neither one is real.

You canít pick out one part of it and say that part is real, only the first part wasnít real.

If horizons were real, they wouldnít be on top of an illusion of a higher up surface. Theyíd be on real surfaces that donít rise, but then they wouldnít even exist, theyíd be the same height as the rest of the surface.

Horizons represent what the surface is, that it doesnít rise or appear to rise on the surface, and that the surface is perfectly flat and level over it.

Hereís the difference weíd see in a flat surface and a curved surface. When you see the horizon by moving in a parallel path to it, the horizon is always seen flat and as a straight line at the same distance away.

Moving along a horizon parallel to it gives us two straight and parallel lines.

But a curved surface cannot be followed along as a straight parallel path. Curved surfaces have no straight lines or can be parallel to other straight lines or paths.

Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #54 on: March 10, 2024, 04:56:41 AM »


But again, our eyes will see a rising surface which doesnít rise at all,



Why is there a measurable dip to the horizon?

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JackBlack

  • 22154
Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #55 on: March 10, 2024, 01:08:33 PM »
It will not always be visible
If it is not going to be visible, then something needs to block the view, so again, WHAT MAGIC IS BLOCKING THE VIEW?

But again, our eyes will see a rising surface which doesnít rise at all
Our eyes show a surface with an angle to any point on the surface dictated by simple geometry.
Repeating the same lie will not help your case.

we donít see whatís past the high up horizons, because the horizon is the limiting point of our view of things.
Because beyond that horizon the surface continues to drop beating the apparent "rise" due to perspective, with the surface obstructing the view.

The surface looks higher than it is
The surface is at the angle of elevation expected.

What you would believe is that our eyes and instruments based on our eyes, would be able to see things out to infinity just because they are not physically blocked out, so weíd see things out to infinity with our instruments, if they have the capability to see them.
Different instruments have different angular resolution. Yet this has no effect on the horizon.

We can see objects which are clearly resolvable yet the bottom is missing. Even though based upon those optics we SHOULD be able to see it if it is a flat surface, we can't because something is clearly blocking the view.

You believe everything which isnít physically blocked out, would be seen with enough magnification.
Assuming it is bright enough, YES!

Again, what would magically stop it?

Our instruments see the same rising surface we see by eye
Again, they see the surface at the same angle based upon geometry.
This does not magically hide the surface.

instruments are based on our eyes, see what we can see, or would see if our eyes were able to magnify things we could see.
And this last part is what kills your delusional BS.

The fact they can magnify means that you can zoom in on that which you can't see with your eyes.

As a simple example, you say the horizon is magic and magically blocks things from view after a magical 3 miles, with ground beyond this magical horizon being magically hidden.
But using the above, we know that the ground, for your magical flat non-existent surface, at a distance of 5 km for an observer height of 2 m would be at an angle of dip of ~0.023 degrees. The next 5 km rises up by 0.0115 degrees, bringing the ground to an angle of dip of 0.0115 degrees.
You are implying this angle is magically too small to magically be seen by our magical eyes.
But guess what? What happens if you use an instrument to magnify it?
Lets say 100 times? Well that changes that "too small to see" 0.0115 degrees into 0.115 degrees.
What about 1000 times? Well that then goes to 1.15 degrees. Larger than the sun.

As a comparison, the distance prior to that, i.e. from 4 to 5 km, would give an angle of 0.006 degrees.
So that tiny angle of 0.006 degrees can be seen. But a larger angle of 0.0115 degrees magically can't be seen.
And when magnified to 1.15 degrees, this still magically can't be seen.

This clearly demonstrates your claim is pure BS.

Again, you need something to be blocking the view.
Appealing to an angle will not help.

Instruments cannot see through the illusions we see
This entirely depends on the illusion.
But again, we aren't discussing illusions. We are discussing basic geometry.


We always see or donít see things which canít explained in physical terms.
Yet the only example you can provide of this is your magical horizon, even though it is trivial to explain in physical terms if you are willing to accept reality.
Earth curves, that blocks the view. No magic needed.

When we see horizons rise up high enough to see from above them, which we cannot, as they are higher than we are
PROVE IT!
Provide an example of a horizon which appears at an angle of elevation greater than 0, which is not caused by things like mountains.

Yet again, you are lying.
The horizon, if formed from ground below you, is at a negative angle of elevation.

There doesnít need to be a physically blocked out surface in order to not see it
Yes, it does.
Without something to block the view, there is nothing preventing the light from reaching our eyes or other device.
So assuming it is bright enough to stand out against the surroundings, or large enough to be resolvable, it will be seen.

our eyes arenít based on what is real or physically there
Again, LYING WONT SAVE YOU!
Our eyes are based upon light travelling to them and hitting them.
This means they work based upon angles.
This means if you are standing with your eyes 2 m above the ground, then the ground below you doesn't appear 2 m below you; it appears at an angle of -90 degrees.
Assuming the ground is flat, the ground a distance of 2 m in front of you, and still 2 m below, doesn't appear 2 m below you; it appears at an angle of -45 degrees.

Our eyes work on angles.

Again, repeatedly lying to pretend our eyes are magic and don't see reality will not help you.

This leads to your misunderstanding of how illusions work
No. This leads to you blatantly lying to pretend that the surface rising is an illusion rather than basic geometry to flee from the fact that your dishonest, delusional BS cannot explain why the horizon exists.

Again, the surface "rising" is not an illusion.
It is basic geometry.

you cannot take an illusion of a rising surface and change it into a real horizon on the top of that illusion. They are both illusions, neither one is real.
Neither is an illusion.
The rising surface is basic geometry, not an illusion.
The horizon is because the surface is going down, so after enough distance it appears at a lower angle than the surface in front and is hidden from view.

But because this so clearly and trivially shows Earth is round, you need to continually lie.

If horizons were real, they wouldnít be on top of an illusion
And they aren't. Your lies wont change that.

Horizons represent what the surface is, ... that the surface is perfectly flat and level over it.
Again, perfectly flat surfaces can't have horizons.
It is physically and geometrically impossible.

Hereís the difference weíd see in a flat surface and a curved surface.
I have already explained the difference.
A flat surface does not have a horizon. A curved surface does.

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gnuarm

  • 274
Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #56 on: April 24, 2024, 05:06:17 AM »
Quote



How can this person be below the ball surface looking out upward?

He would be on TOP of that ball surface at all times, looking out DOWNWARD from his position.

That sketch is completely impossible and utterly absurd.

And this is what you hold up as support?

Sheesh

This is why I like kayaking.  No matter where I am on the water, every direction I go is downhill!

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gnuarm

  • 274
Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #57 on: April 24, 2024, 05:45:58 AM »
Maybe this video may help some out & put to rest about the curvature of the earth.



This is the short version of a longer video I will put up showing the results of my trip across Lake Michigan, wherein we saw Chicago the whole time for nearly 46 miles. This one just gives the highlights of the journey. In the longer video, I will explain more about the trip, the observations we had during it and my more recent conclusions based on the past year's worth of research.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be dense, but what exactly did you prove?  I heard people in the video say maybe a hundred times, "Chicago is not a mirage".  But, what is the relevance of that???  Also, how did you prove it? 

I'm lost.

Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #58 on: April 27, 2024, 12:37:43 AM »
When the surface looks to us that it IS rising up, but it is NOT actually rising at all, what we are seeing in an illusion, our perception of a rising surface which isnít rising.

If you think itís not an illusion then you think itís really rising like we see it as? 

When we see the surface appearing to rise, geometrically it is not correct, not rising up at an angle.

Re: Yes, curvature can be measured and modeled as proven by Blackpool Photo
« Reply #59 on: April 27, 2024, 01:27:00 AM »
When the surface looks to us that it IS rising up, but it is NOT actually rising at all, what we are seeing in an illusion, our perception of a rising surface which isnít rising.

If you think itís not an illusion then you think itís really rising like we see it as? 

When we see the surface appearing to rise, geometrically it is not correct, not rising up at an angle.

One.  Has very little to do with the actual thread.

Two.  Why is there a measurable dip to the horizon.


https://flatearth.ws/bottled-water