The horizon discussions.

I thank you for the chance to offer my observations regarding the shape of our planet. I am a retired Airline Transport Pilot/Navigator of some 14,000 hours logged which means I spent about 1.6 years up among the atmospheric molecules. I hold senior licenses from 4 countries and was a training and checking Captain for quite some of that time. I have to confess up front that I am in no doubt that our earth is an oblate spheroid as all our navigation techniques are aligned exactly with that. I did do a navigation exercise around the South Geographic Pole many years ago before the introduction of VLF, Inertial and GPS (Global Positioning Systems) where we had to rely upon Directional Gyros for navigation due to the rotation of the earth and we had to reset those gyros every 15 minutes because of their property of 'rigidity in space' to maintain accurate track and headings. Magnetic compasses are very delicate in their construction and are entirely useless when flying near either the North or South Poles as they suffer from Magnetic Dip which is where the appropriate needle of the compass points down toward the ground where the magnetic lines leave the earth at the North Magnetic Pole and enter the ground at the South Magnetic Pole. These Isogonic and Agonic lines are spread right across the globe and run parallel to the surface. What holds my attention and interests me for the moment is the debate about our horizons.
Can the flat earth believers understand some simple physics? If we climb to 73 nautical miles (nm) above the earth and glance around 360 degrees we can only see a flat horizon, because, earth radius is 3,440 nm. 73 nm above the earth's surface (a distance that flat earth believers claim we must be able to see the earth's curvature) is 2.1% of the radius. Imagine being an ant standing on the top of a competition basketball and gazing 360 degrees around from where you stand. The radius of the ball is 240 millimetres and your eyes, at 2.1% of that radius would be 5.04 millimetres (mm) above the surface of that ball. How could you see a curvature between you and the horizon in any direction because you would have to be able to see that curvature sloping away from you to the horizon? You could not see a curvature of the distant horizon sloping away 90 degrees to either your left or right because you are on a plane which is relative to the place you stand equidistant to the horizon in all directions from you. Simply adjust that picture to the size of the earth and you can see that claiming flat or curved horizons makes no sense at all, because the horizon is flat on a sphere. It is easier to draw this out on paper and you get the full picture. It is interesting to note that the International Space Station (ISS) orbits at 400 kilometres (216 nautical miles which is 3 times the above quoted distance) above the earth so I would imagine that flat earthers would accept what is seen from the ISS but I note my previous where I say that the observers there could only see a curvature away from them toward the horizon in any of 360 directions. The horizon surrounding them will always be straight/level as they are on the same relative plane, not the same altitude, as the horizon. I hope this can put a stop to the claims of an horizon being curved to the left and right of an observer.

I thank you for the chance to offer my observations regarding the shape of our planet. I am a retired Airline Transport Pilot/Navigator of some 14,000 hours logged which means I spent about 1.6 years up among the atmospheric molecules. I hold senior licenses from 4 countries and was a training and checking Captain for quite some of that time. I have to confess up front that I am in no doubt that our earth is an oblate spheroid as all our navigation techniques are aligned exactly with that. I did do a navigation exercise around the South Geographic Pole many years ago before the introduction of VLF, Inertial and GPS (Global Positioning Systems) where we had to rely upon Directional Gyros for navigation due to the rotation of the earth and we had to reset those gyros every 15 minutes because of their property of 'rigidity in space' to maintain accurate track and headings. Magnetic compasses are very delicate in their construction and are entirely useless when flying near either the North or South Poles as they suffer from Magnetic Dip which is where the appropriate needle of the compass points down toward the ground where the magnetic lines leave the earth at the North Magnetic Pole and enter the ground at the South Magnetic Pole. These Isogonic and Agonic lines are spread right across the globe and run parallel to the surface. What holds my attention and interests me for the moment is the debate about our horizons.

So basically, this whole first paragraph, as a true shill, you wave your credentials around like some pervert does with their dick. I imagine we are supposed to be impressed with any of this. Let's talk about gyroscopes.

Can the flat earth believers understand some simple physics? If we climb to 73 nautical miles (nm) above the earth and glance around 360 degrees we can only see a flat horizon, because, earth radius is 3,440 nm. 73 nm above the earth's surface (a distance that flat earth believers claim we must be able to see the earth's curvature) is 0.21% of the radius. Imagine being an ant standing on the top of a competition basketball and gazing 360 degrees around from where you stand. The radius of the ball is 240 millimetres and your eyes, at 0.21% of that radius would be 0.504 of a millimetre (mm) above the surface of that ball. How could you see a curvature between you and the horizon in any direction because you would have to be able to see that curvature sloping away from you to the horizon? You could not see a curvature of the distant horizon sloping away 90 degrees to either your left or right because you are on a plane which is relative to the place you stand equidistant to the horizon in all directions from you. Simply adjust that picture to the size of the earth and you can see that claiming flat or curved horizons makes no sense at all, because the horizon is flat on a sphere. It is easier to draw this out on paper and you get the full picture. It is interesting to note that the International Space Station (ISS) orbits at 400 kilometres (216 nautical miles which is 3 times the above quoted distance) above the earth so I would imagine that flat earthers would accept what is seen from the ISS but I note my previous where I say that the observers there could only see a curvature away from them toward the horizon in any of 360 directions. The horizon surrounding them will always be straight/level as they are on the same relative plane, not the same altitude, as the horizon. I hope this can put a stop to the claims of an horizon being curved to the left and right of an observer.

So then you act like we were raised in barns instead of going to college, only rejecting what we were taught after it didn't pan out. And then you spit numbers.

So uhhhh, where do these numbers come from? Well, in some cases pretty dubious sources. Are you aware that the speed of light is a number settled upon? And how do we know the distance of the sun? Well, because that's the distance that it takes Earth going at its rotation and orbit speed 365 days for a year. And how do we know how fast Earth orbits and rotates? From the distance of the sun. Yeah, uhhhh that leads in a great big circle around nothing. So you can keep your numbers and your credentials.

By the way. NASA does not just handle space.  They handle aeronautics (air/sea travel) and the nondisclosure of the like.  NASA was founded specifically in response to our discovery that yes, the Earth is flat, and yes there is a firmament. Before you get your wings, you have to jump through a number of hoops. The government owns your right to fly, and if you ever try to say... explore Antarctica, your pilot's license is stripped. So rather than impressing me with how many hours you've flown, you just showed me more and more how deeply you are under government thumb.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fishbowl
Under the guise of nuclear testing, they fired missiles directly into the atmosphere.



Do I trust anything that comes out of your mouth as a pilot? No, I do not.

You are a shill for NASA. Get lost.

And here we have it.
Denialism in all it’s glory, space, science, space science, climate change, rational thought.
All to defend a 2,000 yr-old fairy story and to make its adherents feel cared for and special.

Let's talk about gyroscopes.

You mean like the footage you have already been presented which clearly demonstrated the rotation of Earth?


Or would you prefer a FEers version with a laser ring gyro:


Or the countless ships that use a gyrocompass which relies upon rotation?

If not, what did you want to talk about?

So uhhhh, where do these numbers come from?

Well the altitude comes from just pulling it from thin air.
I have no idea why they picked 73 nautical miles.
But this is even a case where you could show they are wrong.

If you have an object 73 nautical miles above a ball with a radius of 3440 nautical miles, it is 2.1%, not 0.21%. Perhaps they meant 7.3 nautical miles to get it close to 45000 feet. Who knows.

Are you aware that the speed of light is a number settled upon?

Are you aware that the speed of light was empirically measured, in several different ways, to a high level of accuracy.
But to avoid the issues with 1 m defined by a physical object, they switched the definition so the speed of light was defined as a constant based upon that previous measurement with the length of 1 m defined by that.

And how do we know the distance of the sun?

The transit of Venus, along with simple geometry and the distance between 2 observers.
But we can also get it from the length of the orbit and stellar abberation.

And how do we know how fast Earth orbits and rotates?

The rotation can be measured directly using the background stars, or by using devices capable of detecting rotation like a laser ring gyroscope.
The orbital speed is most readily from the size of the orbit and duration, but it can also be measured directly from stellar abberation.

that leads in a great big circle around nothing.

Your strawman does, not reality.

NASA was founded specifically in response to our discovery that yes, the Earth is flat

No, it wasn't.
That is just more delusional BS from you.

if you ever try to say... explore Antarctica, your pilot's license is stripped.

No it isn't.
Flying over Antarctica is quite trivial assuming you get the appropriate insurance.

Under the guise of nuclear testing, they fired missiles directly into the atmosphere.

You mean they performed nuclear tests.
You have no basis to claim it was anything else.

Operation high jump and the like explored Antarctica and considered the possibility of military bases there and military invasion through Antarctica.
It didn't discover your magical ice wall. It didn't discover your magical firmament.
The Antarctic treaty guarantees free movement through Antarctica and prohibits military operation there.
The exact opposite of what FEers claim.

Do I trust anything that comes out of your mouth as a pilot? No, I do not.

How about you keep it more general?
Do you trust anything that shows you are wrong? No, you don't.
Because you have a deep seeded need to reject reality and cling to your fantasy.

Thank you for responses. I stand corrected for my one decimal place error which makes it clear that 73 nm is 2.1% above the surface of the globe. It also means the ant would be 5.04 millimetres above the surface of the basketball. My apologies for that dreadful error. I did not expect to have animosity from what now appear to be combatants rather than discussers.
I have reviewed the responses and I am rather surprised at some of the claims. I have been told just now that I should not expect any rational discussion from flat earth believers as they are very fixed in their mind sets. It appears so. It would seem to me that there is not a goal of resolving the claims about the shape of our globe, but a set aim of verbal pugilism. This never solves anything. Can any of the responders advise of any URL's where there can be discussion?

Thank you for responses. I stand corrected for my one decimal place error which makes it clear that 73 nm is 2.1% above the surface of the globe. It also means the ant would be 5.04 millimetres above the surface of the basketball. My apologies for that dreadful error. I did not expect to have animosity from what now appear to be combatants rather than discussers.
I have reviewed the responses and I am rather surprised at some of the claims. I have been told just now that I should not expect any rational discussion from flat earth believers as they are very fixed in their mind sets. It appears so. It would seem to me that there is not a goal of resolving the claims about the shape of our globe, but a set aim of verbal pugilism. This never solves anything. Can any of the responders advise of any URL's where there can be discussion?

Basker, you've just met the best of the best of the brightest of the brightest. Let's just say the denial force runs strong in that one. Incredible in fact.

Unfortunately for you, if a person has credentials like you say you do, they automatically deem you to be a paid shill.

Any healthy discussion on the horizon would have to lead to compromises and finding common ground.

Have you ever had a healthy discussion with a severely mentally ill person? Neither have I.

That's what's on offer for you here. Your efforts at imparting wisdom and education, will likely fall upon deaf ears.

The Flat Earthers here are just as bad.

I have been looking for the truth about our globe for the last 61 years. All this time because people keep coming up with strange claims about a "flat" earth. My interest was first sparked when I had to do the study for my private pilot licence under navigation where we had to learn about maps. The information I learned over the years getting my commercial then senior licences has dovetailed in neatly to all the navigation I have done since that time always finding that tracks and distances work out to the degree and nautical mile as planned all being based upon the globe we live on. It is a simple fact that education, qualification and experience are the great teachers of everything we partake of. Not being experienced at anything would leave us on a limb. Nobody has yet been able to tell me what scale flat earth "maps" are constructed to, so therefore on none of those "maps" could one accurately find a track and distance from anywhere to anywhere else. Rather a difficult task for a navigator particularly over long transoceanic routes. The popular flat earth "maps" we see look suspiciously like they have all been copied from the UN Logo. One problem is that this logo is not a flat earth "map" and has never been held out as such. It is an azimuthal equidistant projection which flat earthers have copied and mistakenly used as a flat earth "map". You can see by looking at it that the large continents of Australia, Africa and South America are distorted in their shape and contracted north south due to the fact that you are not viewing them from directly above their mass but are looking across their landscapes at a low angle to the horizontal. With Australia you are looking across from the north to the south. I have noticed that on blogs and forums about flat earth that I have tried, there is mostly vitriol, bile and outright abuse in return for any information put up, followed up by an endless supply of disinformation and it seems that most seem not to want to engage in order to delve deeply and find the truth. I understand from my experience that the earth is spherical and I firmly believe that and nobody has as yet given me any information that dispels that belief. If only somebody could.

Quite agree with you Basker, and wecome from a 25yr-experienced air traffic controller. All the evidence we've both seen in our careers just does not support a flat earth.

Thank you Gonzo230. I have never met a pilot or air traffic controller, from rookies to SOC's, that claim flat earth, although I did come across one who did not know that on an RNC the meridians converged toward each other toward the South Pole. We were in Tasmania down toward the South Pole. He was also a surveyor by profession prior to becoming an ATC. I guess we all learn something new each day.

So are you guys done congratulating him?
What about this is a discussion?

I have no interest in what he says, because his entire argument is from credentials. I have no credentials, just what my mind knows is true.

Now what are credentials?

Credentials are written evidence that you have completed the course that is taught. You know how to fly, you know where to fly, and you know where not to fly.

Credentials are often a privilege, that is, unlike skill or knowledge, credentials are a thing that can be taken away by other people.  Skill can become rusty, knowledge can be forgotten, but credentials can be be not only lost but revoked.

If a pilot is on record exposing confidential information, they lose their credentials.

If a pilot flies where they are not supposed to, they lose their credentials.

If a pilot disobeys the hierarchy that underpins their profession, they lose their credentials.

So when you guys are done congratulating Basker, and Basker, when you are done thanking the academy for your fine acting, perhaps you can tell us all why it is that you thousands of hours mean a damned thing.
You fly the way they tell you to, you say the things they tell you to. That makes you a puppet. I can see with my eyes, and I know in my heart the things that are true. I do not trust in pieces of paper.

So basically, this whole first paragraph, as a true shill, you wave your credentials around like some pervert does with their dick. I imagine we are supposed to be impressed with any of this. Let's talk about gyroscopes.

This is the quality discourse I keep coming back here for.

What about this is a discussion?

Good question.
In what way have you contributed to a discussion?

You came in, posted a crap video about gyroscopes, without even bothering to explain just what the video was meant to show; lied about where the numbers come from so you can pretend it is circular BS; jumped straight on the conspiracy bandwagon to spout a bunch of unsubstantiated lies about NASA; lied about the ability to fly over Antarctica; and dismissed them as a shill.

With crap like that, just how do you plan on having a discussion?

So when you guys are done congratulating Basker,

Ok?

The only way the horizon blocks the sun from view is if the earth is spherical.

This thread again…

Horizon did not block duck from view
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=90722.0

A thread you miserably failed in.  A thread by experiments shows that a flat plane can’t physically block an object from view, nor light from a light source from view, when the object/source and the viewer are both above the same plane.  The only way the light and radiation of the sun is physically blocked at night is if the sun relatively goes below the curvature of the earth from the viewer. 

The government owns your right to fly, and if you ever try to say... explore Antarctica, your pilot's license is stripped.

Shrugs…

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https://www.epicpolar.com/epictemplate.php?rno=494

Quite agree with you Basker, and wecome from a 25yr-experienced air traffic controller. All the evidence we've both seen in our careers just does not support a flat earth.

It truly appears that flat earthers are not educated sufficiently to enable them to carry out a debate about the shape of planet earth. I would have thought that to be so sure of their claims they could sensibly and purposefully present clear argument.

What has occurred in Earth shape investigation is an increasing realization resulting from Zetetic influences. Even in the 1800's, FEers would hold seminars where round Earth believers were welcome to debate Earth shape in a public forum. The FEers were successful in winning the debates because when available evidence is laid out side-by-side, it was obvious that the FEers had a better grasp on Earth shape dynamics and they walked away victorious.

The same would be true today if such an event were to occur.

In the 1900's, round Earth believers were able to persuade most of society to consider what they were pushing to be truthful. Unfortunately for them, the wheels are coming off the RET way of thinking and people are once again coming back to the reality of Earth shape.

For this, we should appreciate the efforts of TFES that has tried to keep the wheels on since its formation and is a continuation of Earth shape triumphs that have taken place since the 1800's.

You can mess with reality all you like, but it doesn't make a false thing true. Though you may have convinced Flat Earthers they lost the argument, the actual fact is that there has never been a real Round Earth argument.
Eratostenes: I can see circular shadows. The Earth must be round. 
Me: That's the sun's shadow you looking at, not the Earth's. And you can't even prove the sun isn't a disc rather than a sphere, since you aren't able to look directly at it.
Copernicus/Galileo: Looking out into space, we see other stars and planets, and they're round, so we must be too.
Me: So, f I live across from a billionaire, does this automatically make me a billionaire? How can comparing ourselves to others tell us anything realistic about ourselves?

What has occurred in Earth shape investigation is an increasing realization resulting from Zetetic influences. Even in the 1800's, FEers would hold seminars where round Earth believers were welcome to debate Earth shape in a public forum. The FEers were successful in winning the debates because when available evidence is laid out side-by-side, it was obvious that the FEers had a better grasp on Earth shape dynamics and they walked away victorious.

The same would be true today if such an event were to occur.

In the 1900's, round Earth believers were able to persuade most of society to consider what they were pushing to be truthful. Unfortunately for them, the wheels are coming off the RET way of thinking and people are once again coming back to the reality of Earth shape.

For this, we should appreciate the efforts of TFES that has tried to keep the wheels on since its formation and is a continuation of Earth shape triumphs that have taken place since the 1800's.

I would say there aren't really 2 sides to this debate.
There are 3.

There are the FEers, there are the REers who know what the evidence is that shows Earth is round, and actually understand it, and then there are most people who accept Earth is round like they accept lots of things but don't really know why Earth is round, or know how to defend it.

That latter group is also a group likely to engage with FEers to treat them like idiots and end up losing, because they didn't understand their position.
But for those that do know, I am yet to see a REer lose a debate to a FEer.

The available evidence clearly demonstrates Earth is round.
Even when using the Zetetic method, it is a clear demonstration that Earth is round and the FE model is wrong.
Standing on Earth is like standing on a hill. I can see to the horizon, but if I get higher, I can see further, as if I am seeing further round a corner.
If I observe a boat go over the horizon, it appears to sink dropping down into the horizon. Now I could just conclude that the boat has sunk, but there are plenty of cases where that clearly isn't the case.
And when I observe a sunset, I observe the sun go below me.
None of that makes sense for a FE model, but it matches with the RE model quite well.

You can mess with reality all you like, but it doesn't make a false thing true.

That's right. It doesn't matter how much you mess with reality, it wont magically make Earth flat.

the actual fact is that there has never been a real Round Earth argument.

You mean you choose to remain wilfully ignorant of them, and then set up pathetic strawmen to attack.

Eratostenes: I can see circular shadows. The Earth must be round. 

No. Not even close.

Eratothenes already knew Earth was round and the sun was very far away.
All he did was use those facts to determine the size of Earth.

Me: So, f I live across from a billionaire, does this automatically make me a billionaire? How can comparing ourselves to others tell us anything realistic about ourselves?

Every sufficient large continuous object we can observe is round. The question is why, and why should Earth be any different?
This is also quite different to sentient beings.

If you would like a better example, say I have a bowl of 100 steel balls, I pick them up one by one and release them out in front of the ball. I observe 99 of them fall.
It would be insanity to think the 100th should magically fly up.

Here is a very interesting item about the Rowbotham experiment which tells us a different view of it.
 https://gizmodo.com/a-historic-experiment-shows-why-we-might-not-want-to-de-1627339811
I am in need of a flat earther giving me the dimensions of their imagined planet. Please advise the radius, diameter and circumference of this flat earth so I can calculate tracks and distances between any two or more places on it. That is what we navigators do. I can calculate them easily on our spherical earth and the flight plan calculations always totally agree with the tracks and distances we fly over the chosen routes. Any takers?

What has occurred in Earth shape investigation is an increasing realization resulting from Zetetic influences. Even in the 1800's, FEers would hold seminars where round Earth believers were welcome to debate Earth shape in a public forum. The FEers were successful in winning the debates because when available evidence is laid out side-by-side, it was obvious that the FEers had a better grasp on Earth shape dynamics and they walked away victorious.

The same would be true today if such an event were to occur.

In the 1900's, round Earth believers were able to persuade most of society to consider what they were pushing to be truthful. Unfortunately for them, the wheels are coming off the RET way of thinking and people are once again coming back to the reality of Earth shape.

For this, we should appreciate the efforts of TFES that has tried to keep the wheels on since its formation and is a continuation of Earth shape triumphs that have taken place since the 1800's.

Flat earthers are people who enjoy rejecting mainstream thought, embracing a conspiracy theory or conspiracy theories, and enjoy networking with others who hold the same conspiracy theory values. 

Flat earthers are a subculture within the larger conspiracy theory culture.

That's all flat earth is. A silly conspiracy theory with a following.

FEers stand on the shoulders of the likes of Rowbotham and Einstein. They speak in the same language regarding Earth shape. That is to say, the truth of Earth shape.
 
I recall at university, when the science professor announced that “there is no proof in science”. This makes good sense since science is based only on hypothesis testing that is incapable of truth deliverance. It is a slippery slope that can only result in disappointment.
 
If you slip off the slippery slope, the Earth will rise up to meet you and deliver a “smack” reminding you that FET does deliver truth of Earth shape.

I notice you again want to dodge the issues raised and just speak falsehoods to try up inflate the sense of worth of FE.

FEers stand on the shoulders of the likes of Rowbotham and Einstein.

I wouldn't call a con man like RowBoat a giant.
Unless you mean a giant con man?

And as far as I can tell, Einstein new Earth was round.

I recall at university, when the science professor announced that “there is no proof in science”. This makes good sense since science is based only on hypothesis testing that is incapable of truth deliverance. It is a slippery slope that can only result in disappointment.

Science can deliver the truth.
Just unlike some arrogant people we recognise the limitations of any attempt to determine the truth, that our understanding will inevitably be incomplete.

If you slip off the slippery slope, the Earth will rise up to meet you and deliver a “smack” reminding you that FET does deliver truth of Earth shape.

There is not flat Earth theory. There is a collection of massively contradictory ideas, that fail to match reality.
All the evidence that can determine one way or another clearly indicates Earth is round, not flat.

So by "FET does deliver the truth of Earth shape" did you mean recognising that while science is limited it is the best we have and that the true shape of Earth is roughly spherical?

FEers stand on the shoulders of the likes of Rowbotham and Einstein. They speak in the same language regarding Earth shape. That is to say, the truth of Earth shape.
 
I recall at university, when the science professor announced that “there is no proof in science”. This makes good sense since science is based only on hypothesis testing that is incapable of truth deliverance. It is a slippery slope that can only result in disappointment.
 
If you slip off the slippery slope, the Earth will rise up to meet you and deliver a “smack” reminding you that FET does deliver truth of Earth shape.

Flat Earth stands on the shoulders of other fictional places like the city of Gotham, which is what you've named yourself after - How appropriate!  Flat Earth also stands on the shoulders of a pedophile huckster like Rowbotham but stands nowhere near the shoulders of Einstein.

Einstein wouldn't have batted an eyelid when it came to conspiracy theory nutjobs like yourself who rant that our very spherical planet is flat like the side of a coin.

If you enjoy disappointment, being here trying to prove the Earth is flat, is the right place for you! 

FEers stand on the shoulders of the likes of Rowbotham and Einstein. They speak in the same language regarding Earth shape. That is to say, the truth of Earth shape.
 
I recall at university, when the science professor announced that “there is no proof in science”. This makes good sense since science is based only on hypothesis testing that is incapable of truth deliverance. It is a slippery slope that can only result in disappointment.
 
If you slip off the slippery slope, the Earth will rise up to meet you and deliver a “smack” reminding you that FET does deliver truth of Earth shape.

For all flat earthers, that Rowbotham was proven wrong seems to have escaped you. My earlier message gave you the link to see that. Further to this is the documentary on Netflix that shows real time video where you can see that the earth is spherical. https://www.netflix.com/watch/81462388?trackId=14170286
The Dragon was orbiting above the International Space Station, 582 kilometres above earth, and clearly shows the earth passing below.
If you canot handle that please advise some proof that your earth is flat. I am waiting.

Could a flat earther please advise me as to what keeps their sun and moon in place?