Why do airplanes have machinery to tell whether they are parallel to the ground?

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JackBlack

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It's pretty simple to me as to why the artificial horizon works on a plane or on anything that offers a potential angle.
It is pretty simple to most people, a gyroscope with a self righting mechanism reliant upon gravity.

This is explained by my atmospheric stacked layering which I've mentioned so many times.
Your nonsense explains nothing.
You have failed every single time.

You have failed to explain why the atmosphere should stack.
You have failed to explain why this should result in a greater pressure the lower down it is.
You have failed to explain how the air magically defies this pressure gradient so the low pressure air above magically pushes and overcomes the higher pressure air below resisting it so the object goes down.
You have failed to explain why this only occurs if the object in question is dense enough and why when the object is not dense enough it instead gets pushed up as any honest, sane person would expect the pressure gradient to do.

In short, you have entirely failed to explain anything.
Instead, you have continually deflected and then fled the topic when you are repeatedly refuted.

Buildings go up based on this
No, they don't.
That is because your nonsense doesn't work. Nothing is based upon it.

Your artificial horizon gauge is just a moving centralised spirit level.
No, it isn't.
That is basically the inclinometer, a part of the turn coordinator or turn and slip indicator.
To understand why, consider this:

When water is in a container which is turning, the surface is not perpendicular to down.

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DataOverFlow2022

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It's pretty simple to me as to why the artificial horizon works on a plane or on anything that offers a potential angle.

Then why did your run away that they utilize gravity and vacuum?  And they self correct for things like the curvature of the earth?






This is explained by my atmospheric stacked layering which I've mentioned so many times.

The atmosphere driven by gravity.  With no indication and explanation how less pressure potential above can push something down into greater pressure potential below.  When fluids alone move items it’s from high pressure (greater potential and energy) to lower pressure (to lower potential and lower energy).

Same as a theodolite

A theodolite works also with sight.

Buildings go up based on this

Building are based on columns usually vertical or inline with gravity.  And loading based on gravity.


You could angle any plane or building and fill it with water and the water will self-level within the angled structures.

Air planes usually use artificial horizon with a gyroscope and use pendulous vanes that correct for errors using vacuum and gravity.

Water would go crazy in dives, rolls, flying upside down. 

Your artificial horizon gauge is just a moving centralised spirit level.

Which would be a lie on your part.


 it won't change reality and the reality is simple.

And again..


You're trying to use a curve and offer it as a straight-line perception and pretending that somehow covers what you're trying to portray Earth as which you have absolutely no idea about except to reference drawn graphs as some kind of proof offering.


Shrugs…


Measures “flat” with a straight edge with a small frame of reference.



The tank actually is big enough to have a gentle curve.



What should the curve look like to a person 6 foot tall for an earth 30,000 times, or more, greater in diameter than the tank?






https://flatearth.ws/horizon-dip


And…


Their artificial horizon shows you this.


Walk us through this for the artificial horizon indicator as an airplane passes over an ever increasing horizon as it flys towards the increasing slope and horizon of a mountain range?


Anyway…

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https://flatearth.ws/artificial-horizon

An artificial horizon, or attitude indicator, is a flight instrument that indicates the aircraft’s orientation relative to Earth’s horizon and gives an immediate indication of the smallest change of orientation. An artificial horizon utilizes a gyroscope to detect the change of orientation and pendulous vanes to continuously correct the orientation relative to the level.

Flat-Earthers claim that an artificial horizon should drift over time if the airplane is flying over the spherical Earth because the gyroscope will eventually drift and no longer points toward Earth’s center. In reality, an artificial horizon has a self-correcting mechanism, keeping the gyroscope upright if it is displaced for any reason, including by the aircraft’s motion following Earth’s curvature.


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Preflight Actions:
When an aircraft engine is first started and pneumatic or electric power is supplied to the instruments, the gyro is not erect
A self-erecting mechanism inside the instrument actuated by the force of gravity applies a precessing force, causing the gyro to rise to its vertical position
The attitude indicator should not bank more than 5° in taxi turns

https://www.cfinotebook.net/notebook/avionics-and-instruments/attitude-indicator

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Attitude indicators have mechanisms that keep the instrument level with respect to the direction of gravity.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attitude_indicator

Flat Earth - Yes an aircraft Artificial Horizon self corrects in flight - Pt 1



Their artificial horizon shows you this.


The vacuum powered instruments that uses gravity?


🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Pendulous Vanes | Pilot Tutorial



Ep. 60: Inner Workings of an Attitude Indicator | Gyroscope


Like this source better…
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https://www.aopa.org/training-and-safety/students/presolo/special/understanding-gyroscopic-instruments

Gyro instruments react to short-term movements of the airplane. In fact, the attitude indicator contains a set of weights intended to drive the instrument toward level flight by sensing gravity. These weights move the instrument face about 3 degrees per minute. So if you were to maintain a 30-degree coordinated banked turn for 10 minutes,


Commonly, the AI and HI are powered by vacuum pneumatic systems.


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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
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It's pretty simple to me as to why the artificial horizon works on a plane or on anything that offers a potential angle.
It is pretty simple to most people, a gyroscope with a self righting mechanism reliant upon gravity.
It doesn't self right it's helped to balance once again because the gyroscope gets back into atmospherically stacked order once the plane is levelled out.
No such thing as gravity. It's just a story of fiction told and sold to those who want to accept it based on nothing physically proven.

Quote from: JackBlack
Your artificial horizon gauge is just a moving centralised spirit level.
No, it isn't.
That is basically the inclinometer, a part of the turn coordinator or turn and slip indicator.
To understand why, consider this:

When water is in a container which is turning, the surface is not perpendicular to down.
The water in a turning container compresses the atmosphere and pushes it away and up which then compresses back into the water void ensuring the water is compressed to the sides.
This is the same as the fairground rota where people are compressed to the sides.


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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
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Then why did your run away that they utilize gravity and vacuum?
What are you talking about?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
And they self correct for things like the curvature of the earth?
They are corrected by the atmospheric stacking which is level without interference.



Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
This is explained by my atmospheric stacked layering which I've mentioned so many times.

The atmosphere driven by gravity.  With no indication and explanation how less pressure potential above can push something down into greater pressure potential below.  When fluids alone move items it’s from high pressure (greater potential and energy) to lower pressure (to lower potential and lower energy).
less pressure can never offer anything against higher pressure. It takes a higher pressure to compress less pressure into a higher pressure to create a return movement so have a rethink.


Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Same as a theodolite

A theodolite works also with sight.

Everything works with sight.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Buildings go up based on this

Building are based on columns usually vertical or inline with gravity.  And loading based on gravity.
Buildings are put up by offering a push out of the way of atmosphere which then self-levels against the building materials.



Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
You could angle any plane or building and fill it with water and the water will self-level within the angled structures.

Air planes usually use artificial horizon with a gyroscope and use pendulous vanes that correct for errors using vacuum and gravity.

Water would go crazy in dives, rolls, flying upside down.

You misread what I said. Maybe on purpose but who knows?

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DataOverFlow2022

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 What are you talking about?


The explain an artificial horizon works without gravity and and vacuum.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2024, 07:48:06 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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DataOverFlow2022

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less pressure can never offer anything against higher pressure. It takes a higher pressure to compress less pressure into a higher pressure to create a return movement so have a rethink.



Which is bullshit.  Low pressure can’t push down high pressure.  High pressure will equal with low pressure.  The force of gravity as weight works on individual molecules of O2, N2, and CO2 to keep them bunched up at the surface of the earth.  The force of gravity forces them together to over come their tendency to bounce off each other until pressure reaches equal potential.  Without gravity, there should be no pressure gradient.

We know atmosphere doesn’t push things down to make them accelerate towards earth. 

One.  Low pressure can’t push things into higher pressure.  Such as from lower pressure of the upper atmosphere to higher pressure at lower altitudes.

Two.  You remove “pressure” by reducing atmosphere in a vacuum chamber, things fall faster.  If you remove the motive force for things to fall in your delusion things fall faster.  The is backwards from your model. 

Three.  If enough atmosphere is removed from a chamber to make air resistance negligible.  Objects fall at the same rate. 


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DataOverFlow2022

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No such thing as gravity.

You never did answer this.  Why does a half liter of soda fall at the same rate as a full liter of soda? 

Why can a gravity model actually predict acceleration and rates.

While your model horribly fails.

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DataOverFlow2022

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Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
And they self correct for things like the curvature of the earth?
They are corrected by the atmospheric stacking which is level without interference.


If the earth was flat why would there need to be correction. 

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DataOverFlow2022

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They are corrected by the atmospheric stacking which is level without interference.


Except in the case of the artificial horizon the atmosphere inside with the mechanisms isn’t “stacking”, its under constant air movement and mixing.

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Air-Driven Attitude Gyro

Most of our airplanes are equipped by an air-driven attitude indicator powered by the aircraft’s vacuum or pressure system. The heart of the instrument is a gyroscope: a massive metal rotor disk that spins at about 10,000 RPM in the horizontal plane about a vertical axle. The gyro is gimballed with pivots in both the roll and pitch axes.
The rotor of the air-driven gyro is mounted in a sealed housing. Filtered air is brought into the gyro housing through passages in the rear pivot, the gimbal ring, and the side pivots. The air then blows against the rotor through two angled nozzles on opposite sides of the housing. The circumference of the rotor is machined with dozens of little bucket-like cutouts which allow the airflow to spin the rotor like a waterwheel (but a whole lot faster). Having done its work, the air then exits through exhaust ports on the lower part of the sealed gyro housing, whereupon it is sucked out of the instrument case by the vacuum pump.



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If the gyro tilts so that its axle is not plumb, the pendulous vanes shift so that one exhaust port is more-than-half-covered and the opposite exhaust port is less-than-half-covered. The resulting imbalance of discharge air exerts a force on the rotor housing at right angles to the direction of tilt, causing the gyro to precess to the erect position. As soon as the gyro is erect, the pendulous vanes return to a balanced condition to remove the precessing force.

https://www.avweb.com/avionics/the-gyro-with-an-attitude/


There is clearly a force acting on the pendulous vanes down that is separate from the turbulent atmosphere provided that doesn’t allow for stacking in the instrument case it operates in. 

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
You could angle any plane or building and fill it with water and the water will self-level within the angled structures.

Air planes usually use artificial horizon with a gyroscope and use pendulous vanes that correct for errors using vacuum and gravity.

Water would go crazy in dives, rolls, flying upside down.

You misread what I said. Maybe on purpose but who knows?


You have been shown what happens to liquids in free fall.


 I ignore the stuff that's fictional in the telling of how certain things work.
As I said before, if gravity has to be involved then the science is pseudo-science.

Hmm..



As shown by experiments, it takes gravity to do this.



You're getting weaker by the second.

Then why do these liquids mix?

Liquids in near-Zero G



Weightless Water - Experiments In 'Zero Gravity'



What’s your expectation why the liquids mix?


Why do a feather and bowling ball drop at the same rate when air resistance is made negligible.

Why can gravity accurately model a dropped ball when den pressure can’t?

Why can gravity accurately model tides and make accurate predictions? 

Because denpressure is real. Gravity is fiction and so is nuclear as far as I'm concerned.

No.  Den pressure is your delusion that would get people killed if you tried to utilize it in the real world of  power plants.

« Last Edit: January 13, 2024, 10:31:53 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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JackBlack

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It doesn't self right it's helped to balance once again because the gyroscope gets back into atmospherically stacked order once the plane is levelled out.
That sure sounds like a fancy way of saying it self-rights.

No such thing as gravity. It's just a story of fiction told and sold to those who want to accept it based on nothing physically proven.
Except the mountains of evidence supporting it and the fact that it actually works as an explanation unlike your delusional BS.

The water in a turning container compresses the atmosphere and pushes it away and up which then compresses back into the water void ensuring the water is compressed to the sides.
This is the same as the fairground rota where people are compressed to the sides.
And it demonstrates your claim is delusional BS.
If planes used a spirit level for the attitude indicator, then during plenty of manoeuvres it would show an incorrect attitude.

less pressure can never offer anything against higher pressure.
Which is why your garbage is DOA.
Your garbage relies upon low pressure overcoming higher pressure.
You admit this is not possible.

This means there is no way at all for the low pressure air above the object to magically push the object down into the higher pressure air below.
Your model simply doesn't work.
It has no way to work.
You CANNOT have the air work as a substitute for gravity.
The air would push things up, not down.

So have a rethink.

Buildings are put up by offering a push out of the way of atmosphere which then self-levels against the building materials.
No, buildings are constructed with an understanding of their weight.
No is mentally thinking about pushing the atmosphere out of the way. Especially as the materials are already in the atmosphere.

You misread what I said.
No, we correctly what you said and recognised it was pure BS.
Your idea was that the attitude indicator is a spirit level.
You even made comparisons to filling things with water to find their level.

You just now realise it is BS and entirely indefensible and are trying to back out.

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turbonium2

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That's right, for a flat surface it continues to rise at a decreasing rate, never stopping.
This means you do not get a horizon.

In order for the horizon to form, you need it to stop and rise less

No, you need it to rise more and more until it stops rising completely, and forms a horizon, which it does.

The continually greater rise over more distance does not occur over a spherical object with a constantly curving downward surface. Look above the surface of a ball. You are always on the top of a ball, at any point on it. You are not on the side of your ball Earth, you’re on top of it from your position, right?

When you look outward from the top of a huge sphere, it’s size doesn’t make it constantly rise up more and more, because it curves downward more and more, no matter how large the sphere is.

Imagine you are on the most massive sphere possible. You’re always on top of it, no matter how large it is. Everywhere out from you is curving downward, no matter how slightly it is.

Perspective acts on flat or mostly flat surfaces, but any curved surfaces will curve more and more over more distance, so they appear to rise less and less over more distance, not rise up more and more over distance.

That is why Earth’s surface cannot be curved, because it rises more and more over distance, which is not possible on a curving down surface. It is the very opposite of how we’d see a curved surface over a distance.

Showing me their calculations of the physical properties and measurements doesn’t show what WE see, as a rising surface.  The actual surface measures as flat, calculates as flat, but that’s not how we see it as.

You’ll never accept a surface of three miles long can be built as flat, which is easily done, all the time. You’ll say they are level to Earths ‘curvature’, not flat.

Somehow you believe we cannot make a flat surface, because you believe our instruments measure level to your made up non-existent curvature, that your made of non-existent force makes our instruments read as level, but is not flat, because your made up force wants it to measure Earths curved surface instead as being level.


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JackBlack

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No, you need it to rise more and more until it stops rising completely, and forms a horizon, which it does.
And the point is A FLAT SURFACE WILL NOT DO THAT!
It will NEVER stop for a flat surface.
For a flat surface it just continues to rise FOREVER!

So in order to have it stop you need the surface to change orientation.
e.g. you can have a corner, such the corner at the edge of a table, where that corner results in the surface no longer appearing to rise.
Or you can have a curve where it continues to change orientation, eventually reaching a point where it stops rising.

And no, you don't need it to stop rising. You need it to appear to drop back down to cause objects to disappear from the bottom up.

The continually greater rise over more distance does not occur over a spherical object
Because it reaches a point WHERE IT STOPS and then goes back down!
i.e. it does the very thing you admit it needs to do to work.

Look above the surface of a ball.
Yes, go ahead, look at it.
Observe how the surface initially appears to rise, until it reaches a point where it stops rising.
Observe how the larger the ball is or the closer you are to it, the more it appears to rise before it stops and goes back down.

When you look outward from the top of a huge sphere, it’s size doesn’t make it constantly rise up more and more, because it curves downward more and more, no matter how large the sphere is.
Only because you eventually reach a point where it stops.

Imagine you are on the most massive sphere possible.
Possible in what way?
Are you just talking about a hypothetical?
If so, fine.
Lets imagine we are on a massive sphere, with a radius of
1 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 km.
i.e. 1 sextillion km.

What would this look like?
And more importantly, how much does it differ to a hypothetical flat Earth?

Consider the point observed to actually be on the horizon for an observer with an eye height of 2 m above the level surface (which matches a RE).
The eye height is 2 m above a hypothetical flat reference plane.
So for a FE, that horizon is a circle 2 m below eye height.
For a the real round Earth it would be roughly 4 m below.
And for this hypothetical, using the simple approximation of drop=distance^2/(2*R) gives us a drop of 0.00000000000000001 m.
That is 0.00000001 nm.

That is tiny.
It is much less than an atom.
You would be able to fit this distance roughly 10 million times inside a hydrogen atom.

If a flat surface would magically make a horizon at a distance of 5 km, then so would this, because of just how little difference there is.

Even if we were on one side of the hypothetical pizza planet you love, and were looking all the way across, a distance of 40 000 km, that would have a drop of 0.8 nm.
That is roughly 7 hydrogen atoms.
A single grain of sand is millions of times more significant than that.

So if the sphere was large enough it would be entirely indistinguishable from a flat surface.
Any sufficiently small portion of a sufficiently large sphere is indistinguishable from a flat surface.

A flat surface can be seen as the limit of a spherical surface as the radius approaches infinity.

Size DOES matter.
Earth is not a tiny ball.
It is a massive ball.

Everything "curving down" doesn't magically mean it instantly goes out of sight.

Perspective acts on flat or mostly flat surfaces, but any curved surfaces will curve more and more over more distance, so they appear to rise less and less over more distance, not rise up more and more over distance.
As has been explained to you repeatedly, PERSPECTIVE DOES NOT GIVE A DAMN WHAT THE SHAPE OF THE SURFACE IS!

Perspective is merely a statement that far away things appear smaller. That as distance to the object increases, the apparent size of the object decreases.
And as has been explained to you, and proven beyond any doubt, a round surface WILL rise due to perspective, but only to a point. After some point it will stop and curve back down.

which is not possible on a curving down surface.
PROVE IT!
Stop just spouting the same pathetic lies.
You continually ignoring this to repeat the same pathetic lies, without even attempting to refute the proof that you are spouting pure BS, just demonstrates your dishonesty and your desperation.

If you want to claim that perspective magically stops working so any ball you look at appears as nothing more than a single point, then PROVE IT!

If you can't, then stop spouting the same dishonest BS.

It is the very opposite of how we’d see a curved surface over a distance.
No. It is EXACTLY how we would see a curved surface, as explained repeatedly, and even shown with examples.
A curved surface will appear to rise until it reaches a horizon where it stops and instead appears to go down.
We see this with balls, we see this with smooth, round hills, we see this from the math clearly describing what we should see.

Showing me their calculations of the physical properties and measurements doesn’t show what WE see
The calculations are to show you what you would expect to see for a round surface and a flat surface.

This would allow any honest person to compare what is predicted for a particular surface type to reality, to see which surface matches reality.

The calculations show a flat surface does not have a horizon, but a round surface does.
This means the fact we have a horizon is incredibly strong evidence that Earth is round.
The fact that the distance to the horizon, and the angle of dip of the horizon changes with observer altitude, in a manner entirely consistent with a RE, is further incredibly strong evidence that Earth is round.

If you want to pretend Earth is flat, you need to explain how a flat surface magically produces a horizon, as there is absolutely no reason for it.

The actual surface measures as flat, calculates as flat, but that’s not how we see it as.
No, it doesn't
Pathetic measurements can't tell if it is curved or not.
But highly accurate measurements such as those used to map out large areas to a very high degree of accuracy measure with curvature.
Measurements of the angle of dip to the horizon measure it as curved.

Nothing which is capable of measuring the curve of Earth measures it as flat.

We do not see it as flat either.
Again, the horizon is clear evidence that we see it as round. The measurements of the angle of dip to the horizon is measuring it as round.
You repeatedly lying will not change that fact.

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JackBlack

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You’ll never accept a surface of three miles long can be built as flat
I accept that it can be built as flat, which is quite difficult.
It is very easy to make a surface which is level. It is much harder to make a surface that large which is flat.

Making it level allows you to use a device to determine level at any point.
Making it flat requires you to accurately transfer a reference.
Say you have a device capable of measuring over 100 m.
This device is accurate to 0.01 degrees, either to level, or to a reference.
If this devices determines level, then the entire surface can be made level to within 0.01 degrees.
That equates to 0.9 m, assuming it was as misaligned as possible, over the entire 5 km.

But if instead you are trying to make it flat, using a device for that, then at each point of intersection of those 100 m long segments, you can introduce an error of 0.01 degrees.
For the same 5 km distance, the last segment could be off by 0.5 degrees. That means that 1 segment alone can introduce an error of 0.9 m.

Making something flat is much harder than making it level.

It is possible, with VERY accurate equipment, or by actually taking into account Earth's curvature; but it is not anywhere near as easy as making a level surface.

The problem is your dishonest BS where you pretend a level surface is flat, to pretend a flat surface produces a horizon, when it has no mechanism to.

you believe our instruments measure level to your made up non-existent curvature
No, I accept the fact that instruments which measure for level are simply measuring perpendicular to down.
With the very real curvature of Earth, it will naturally account for that, as the direction of down changes.

that your made of non-existent force makes our instruments read as level, but is not flat, because your made up force wants it to measure Earths curved surface instead as being level.
No, that the REAL force of gravity (which you have repeatedly failed to show a fault with and repeatedly failed to provide a viable alternative to) causing instruments to measure perpendicular to down.
There is no magic force which makes magic devices measure relative to a magic flat reference.

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Themightykabool

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How is force deteremined on a thing coming to its natural satate of being "on the ground"?


Take an elastic.
A force is used to stretch it.
And its internal tension snaps it back.

A rock.
Lifted up.
Then let go, freely allowd to drop.

Are you saying the dense mass on its own, snaps it back?

Or is there an internal tension between the ground and the rock?
Some attraction?

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Themightykabool

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Mountainsides have a distinct edge.
Wehn viewed from very far away.
This sideizon behaves very similar to the "edge" of something else.

Yes no?
Do circles and triangles behave differently on cones than theybdo on spheres?

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Smoke Machine

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Quote
That's right, for a flat surface it continues to rise at a decreasing rate, never stopping.
This means you do not get a horizon.

In order for the horizon to form, you need it to stop and rise less

No, you need it to rise more and more until it stops rising completely, and forms a horizon, which it does.

The continually greater rise over more distance does not occur over a spherical object with a constantly curving downward surface. Look above the surface of a ball. You are always on the top of a ball, at any point on it. You are not on the side of your ball Earth, you’re on top of it from your position, right?

When you look outward from the top of a huge sphere, it’s size doesn’t make it constantly rise up more and more, because it curves downward more and more, no matter how large the sphere is.

Imagine you are on the most massive sphere possible. You’re always on top of it, no matter how large it is. Everywhere out from you is curving downward, no matter how slightly it is.

Perspective acts on flat or mostly flat surfaces, but any curved surfaces will curve more and more over more distance, so they appear to rise less and less over more distance, not rise up more and more over distance.

That is why Earth’s surface cannot be curved, because it rises more and more over distance, which is not possible on a curving down surface. It is the very opposite of how we’d see a curved surface over a distance.

Showing me their calculations of the physical properties and measurements doesn’t show what WE see, as a rising surface.  The actual surface measures as flat, calculates as flat, but that’s not how we see it as.

You’ll never accept a surface of three miles long can be built as flat, which is easily done, all the time. You’ll say they are level to Earths ‘curvature’, not flat.

Somehow you believe we cannot make a flat surface, because you believe our instruments measure level to your made up non-existent curvature, that your made of non-existent force makes our instruments read as level, but is not flat, because your made up force wants it to measure Earths curved surface instead as being level.

Mark Sargent and other flat earth priests, implore their followers such as you, to do your own research. So, why is it you never ever do? Is it because you're just too lazy?

All you have to do, to test your theories, is to buy a large beach ball. You never will. You know that if you ever did, everything you say about Earth's surface not possibly being curved, would be revealed to be complete and utter shit.
For the overall shape of Earth to be flat, requires billions of people and billions of pieces of information about Earth to be wrong. Do the maths.

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turbonium2

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Quote
No, I accept the fact that instruments which measure for level are simply measuring perpendicular to down.
With the very real curvature of Earth, it will naturally account for that, as the direction of down changes.

No, you would measure over any curved surface as level by your argument. Only measuring a surface at one point downward from it, perpendicular to the instrument, reading level at one point below it on a ball, perpendicular to that point!!

A single point on ANY surface below an instrument will measure ‘level’ that way!!

When we measure a shelf on a wall, for level, the whole surface of the shelf is measured for level, not a single point, or points along it.

Surfaces have a distance over them, not a bunch of different points over a surface, independent from each other point on that surface, as it couldn’t measure any surface, if points on it were measured over it, again and again, for a point down perpendicular to each point over the surface.

Take a spirit level, and hold it just above a ball below it.

Adjust it until it reads level above the ball, at a point downward to it, perpendicular to it.

When you move the level over the ball so slightly a distance, while still measuring as level, the point downward, perpendicular to level, is going more down on the ball, than the first time you measured it.

That’s because the instrument measures level over a surface, not one point of a surface.

Instruments have to measure over a distance, which is the instrument itself’s length, or two separate points on the instrument, measuring between those two points, for level.

Every point downward from instruments must be perpendicular to the instrument as being level, not just a single point in its centre, all points over it are perpendicular lines downward, imaginary lines going straight down at 90 degrees to it!

A single point over the whole instrument will obviously be perpendicular downward from it, every point over it will be perpendicular downward to the instrument!!

Every point along the instrument measures for level, and are all perpendicular to straight down at 90 degrees to level.




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JackBlack

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No, you would measure over any curved surface as level by your argument.
No, you wouldn't.
It would only measure as level if it was concentric to Earth.

I have explained how measuring for level isn't magic like you want it to be.

When we measure a shelf on a wall, for level, the whole surface of the shelf is measured for level, not a single point, or points along it.
Using either a level that is long enough, or just aligning the shelf using a single point.

Do you have a level that is 40 000 km long?
No.
I have explained how your BS doesn't work.


Take a spirit level, and hold it just above a ball below it.
Take it over a ball that has a radius of 6371 km, not your pathetic strawman.
Earth is not a tiny ball sitting on top of a much larger ball.

Instruments have to measure over a distance, which is the instrument itself’s length
And as explained, that only helps for the length of the instrument, and only to the accuracy of that instrument.
Do you have a 40 000 km long level? No.

Every point downward from instruments must be perpendicular to the instrument as being level, not just a single point in its centre
Wrong again.
Especially considering that is basically physically impossible due to the impossibility of constructing something straight to infinite precision.
Most spirit levels have a single point near the centre which is used to determine the level of the instrument.
For laser levels it is the laser itself.
That is the part which determines level, the rest is merely the construction of the device.

Again, the simple fact is that all instruments have a limit of accuracy and capabilities for what they can actually do vs what they can't.
If you are using a level, you are not determining if a hypothetical level surface on Earth is flat or round. You are merely confirming it is level.
To determine if it is flat or round, you need angles relative to a reference. That relies upon accuracy of the alignment between whatever you are using and the reference.

This means Earth's curvature doesn't cause problems for a small enough level.

But back to the previous argument you fled from because you were shown to be wrong repeatedly:
A flat surface doesn't have a horizon. It continues to rise forever.
A curved surface has a horizon. It initially rises before reaching a peak and going back down.

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turbonium2

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Earths horizons can only occur on a flat surface, not a curved surface.

The surface is always flat, not curving down more and more with more distance out from you. Only a flat surface appears to rise more and more with distance, the very opposite of what a curved surface would do and look like in the distance.

Why would perspective make it appear to rise more and more on a surface curving more and more downward? That makes no sense at all.

In other words, why would perspective have more effect when it would have the least effect on that surface? An anti-perspective causing opposite effects to occur?

More magical, anti-perspective makes curved surfaces look perfectly flat, too!

A curved surface would appear to rise slightly, at closer distances, not further out, though. You’re on top of the ball surface, everywhere outward is down from you, not the same height as you, or above you.




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JackBlack

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Earths horizons can only occur on a flat surface, not a curved surface.
Repeating the same lie wont save you.
Forget about Earth for now.
A HORIZON in general CANNOT occur on a flat surface.
It is physically impossible for it to do so.
The horizon is a point where a line from your eye is tangent to the surface.

You need a curve (or sharp corner) for that to happen. You cannot have it happen on a flat surface.

The basic principles of perspective show quite clearly that a flat surface will rise FOREVER, never stopping, never reversing; and that means no horizon.

Conversely, for a round surface it shows that initially it will rise until it reaches a peak and then it drops down.
That is the horizon.

The only way to get a horizon for Earth, excluding those from mountains, is if Earth is round, or the horizon is the edge of Earth.

The surface is always flat, not curving down more and more with more distance out from you.
Again, the fact we have a horizon demonstrates that claim of yours is pure BS.
The fact we have a horizon demonstrates that the ground is sloping down more and more with distance out from you (using a cartesian reference frame centred on and level with you).

Only a flat surface appears to rise more and more with distance, the very opposite of what a curved surface would do and look like in the distance.
Again, lying will not save you.
Perspective does not magically only work on flat surface.
It works on all.
Both a flat and a round surface will appear to rise with distance.
The distinction is what happens with even more distance.
For a flat surface it will continue to rise forever, never stopping, never producing a horizon.
A round surface does stop, when the curve becomes too great, at which point it starts going back down and produces a horizon.

Again, if your dishonest BS was true, then a ball would appear as a single point.
Even if the ball was 1 km wide, it would just appear as a single point in your vision.
That is the level of dishonest BS you are spouting.

Why would perspective make it appear to rise more and more on a surface curving more and more downward? That makes no sense at all.
Why would perspective magically not work on it? That makes no sense at all.
The only way your pure BS could make any sense at all is if you say anything below you will not be visible.

Again, people looking down a ramp or a hill shows your claim is pure BS.
If your claim was true, they would never be able to look down it, because as soon as you get to the point closest to you, the rest would have to appear lower, in the ground and hidden by it.

The way to analyse it simply, without using math, is to note you have perspective which makes it appear higher, and it being physically lower making it appear lower.
These are 2 competing effects and you can't simply say which wins.
The best you can do without math is going to the extremes. For a sphere, the point directly below you is level. That means it isn't getting lower, so the only effect at play is perspective (Note: JUST THAT POINT, we are looking at one end). For the other extreme, we have a point 90 degrees away, the sphere is going straight down, so perspective has no effect.
Combining that it means initially perspective is the only thing at play and the surface appears to rise, but curvature will start having an affect as you move along, until you eventually reach a point where it wins and the surface starts going down, and then eventually reach a point where perspective has no effect.

More magical, anti-perspective makes curved surfaces look perfectly flat, too!
No, they don't. You are yet to provide a single observation where it appears perfectly flat.
Instead you appeal to your inability to tell if it is flat or curved to lie and claim it is flat.

A curved surface would appear to rise slightly, at closer distances, not further out, though. You’re on top of the ball surface, everywhere outward is down from you, not the same height as you, or above you.
i.e. exactly what I have said.
At "closer" distances it appears to rise. But "further out", it appears to drop.

The question then becomes at what distance do you change from "closer" to "further out"? And how does this depend upon the radius of the sphere and eye height?

That is one where you do need math, as you are trying to find a number.
And I already did that for you.
E.g. these posts, where I also showed how you were lying:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=92054.msg2413817#msg2413817
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=92054.msg2414034#msg2414034
There are many ways to arrive at the formula and number.
But the end result is that this switch is when e=d^2/2R
Or alternatively, when d = sqrt(2Re), there d is the distance (in cartesian coordinates), e is the eye height above the sphere, and R is the radius of the sphere.
For an eye height of 2 m, and a radius of 6371 km, that works out to be a distance of roughly 5 km.
That matches reality quite well.

Again, reality matches what is expected for a RE, where the ground appears to initially rise up, reaching a peak (the horizon) before dropping down.
For a FE, it should never stop, and we would never get a horizon.

Earth's horizons (and horizons in general (with this meaning)) can only occur on a round or cornered surface, not a flat surface.

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turbonium2

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Where is an equation that shows what we see as a rising surface?

Where do they have an equation that shows why the surface appears to rise more and more on a curved surface that curves down more and more?

One can make physical equations, but they don’t reflect what we actually see at all. Our eyes are not based on physical geometry, which shows two parallel lines going out and remaining parallel, which they are, but not to what WE see of them, converging together.

And the ground only appears to rise, it never appears to go downward at all. Ships appear to go downward past the horizon, the surface is always seen upward from us.

The increasing rise of the surface we see, is completely contradictory to an increasingly curving downward surface you believe exists on Earth.

How can you possibly resolve for that contradiction? Assuming there is perspective of course, it would have less and less effect over an ever more downward curving surface, well before it reaches its HIGHEST point at the horizon.


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JackBlack

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Where is an equation that shows what we see as a rising surface?

Where do they have an equation that shows why the surface appears to rise more and more on a curved surface that curves down more and more?
Plenty of locations.
For example, back in this post:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=92054.msg2413817#msg2413817
I gave the equation.
This equation is basic trig.

In this post:
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=92054.msg2414034#msg2414034
I provided simple pictures to show it, and even a link to a desmos graph so you can see how changing the radius effects it.

One can make physical equations, but they don’t reflect what we actually see at all.
They most certainly do match what we see, at least to a decent approximation. Refraction complicates it.
What doesn't match is a flat Earth.

The RE does match reality, the FE does not.

Our eyes are not based on physical geometry, which shows two parallel lines going out and remaining parallel, which they are, but not to what WE see of them, converging together.
This depends on what you mean by "physical geometry".
Ultimately, our eyes work based upon angles.
If you try to use lengths instead of angles, it wont match.
But if you convert those physical lengths into physical angles, it does.
If you have 2 parallel lines going out, the angular separation between them shrinks.

And the ground only appears to rise, it never appears to go downward at all.
Pure BS.
The surface appears to rise, until it appears to stop and appears to go down.
The point at which it stops and changes direction is called the horizon.
You can't see the ground appearing to go down because it is past the horizon.

But we can tell with observations of distant objects, including ships.
When a ship goes over the horizon, it doesn't just magically vanish. Instead it disappears from the bottom up, as if the boat is sinking.
If you look at a distant object, like a tower across a lake, you see the bottom is missing; and if you take a different picture, where you can see it all, and scale it down, you can see that the bottom would be well below the horizon.

Here is a great example of that:
https://flatearth.ws/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/toronto.jpg

So what we observe is the ground appear to rise before it stops and then appears to go down.
This matches what is expected for a RE.

For a FE, you would expect it to continue to rise forever

Ships appear to go downward past the horizon, the surface is always seen upward from us.
The only reason we don't see the surface going down, is because the surface going up in front of it blocks the view.
How do you think the ship appears to go down if the surface doesn't?

The increasing rise of the surface we see, is completely contradictory to an increasingly curving downward surface you believe exists on Earth.
As above, it matches quite well.
You are yet to show any contradiction.
Instead you just repeatedly assert that there is a problem and that we shouldn't see this on a RE; even though literally everything which indicates anything on the topic shows you are wrong.

What is contradictory is a FE.
For a FE, it should continue to rise forever, never stopping, never producing a horizon.

How can you possibly resolve for that contradiction?
I don't need to resolve the contradiction because I'm not promoting a FE, and that is the one with the contradiction.


Assuming there is perspective of course, it would have less and less effect over an ever more downward curving surface, well before it reaches its HIGHEST point at the horizon.
This statement could be interpreted 2 ways. One is an entirely pointless statement, effectively no better than saying perspective has the greatest effect at your feet.
The other is entirely meaningless where you are taking something which is a continuum and saying it should happen before it reaches a point.

For that you are going to need a threshold.
The only to make sense of that is to say that curvature should start beating perspective to make the surface appear to go down well before it reaches its highest point.
The problem is that is literally a contradiction.
The point at which perspective loses and curvature wins by definition is the highest point.
Before that point, perspective wins and the surface appears to rise.
After that point, curvature wins and the surface appears to fall (at least it would if you could see it.

Again, this is all simple math, as shown in the links above.


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turbonium2

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Quote
The point at which perspective loses and curvature wins by definition is the highest point.
Before that point, perspective wins

Not when it keeps on rising more and more until its highest point, that is the contradiction here.

The surface always appears to rise higher and higher up to the horizon, where it peaks, and nothing more is seen of the surface, only objects above the horizon are seen, in part or whole in air.

The horizon is the highest point seen of the surface, and past it is not seen at all. The horizon is a virtual ‘cut line’ of our view over the surface, where only things above this cut line are seen beyond.


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turbonium2

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Like when we see parallel lines converge in the distance because of perspective. How can they converge any more than that? They cannot, perspective doesn’t act past that point on parallel lines. Same as a horizon, perspective cannot act anymore.

Your argument is that a horizon wouldn’t form on a flat surface, it would keep rising, only less and less. But it rises more and more up to the horizon, and you believe this is on a curving down surface!

Wouldn’t that mean it would rise even higher on a flat surface tjen? If it rises more and more on an ever more downward surface, as you would believe, it would rise much higher on a flat surface which does not curve down at all!

How could it rise up more and more going downward, but rise less and less on a flat surface, isn’t possible at all. It’s nonsensical gibberish

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JackBlack

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Not when it keeps on rising more and more until its highest point, that is the contradiction here.
You're still not making any sense.
Again, by definition, the highest point is the highest point.
How do you plan on having the highest point before the highest point?
The surface always appears to rise higher and higher up to the horizon, where it peaks, and nothing more is seen of the surface
Again, while the surface is not seen, we can tell how it is going from how other objects are.

The horizon is a virtual ‘cut line’ of our view over the surface, where only things above this cut line are seen beyond.
There is nothing virtual about it.

Like when we see parallel lines converge in the distance because of perspective.
Which takes an infinite distance.
Again, it is simple geometry.

The horizon is NOT the point where parallel lines converge. We know this from both observations which show this, and from basic geometry showing the point parallel lines converge is infinitely far away and the horizon is a finite distance away.

Your argument is that a horizon wouldn’t form on a flat surface, it would keep rising, only less and less.
With a specific meaning, that it rises at a slower rate; not that it doesn't rise to the same height.
e.g. if you stand 2 m high above a flat surface, in the first 2 m, it will rise 45 degrees, going from -90 to -45.
Over the next 2, it only rises 18.4, up to roughly -26.6.
And as the distance increases, the rate it appears to rise for a given increase in distance will decrease.
After enough distance it approximates doubling the distance halves the angle of dip.

So yes, it will keep rising, but at an ever decreasing rate, slowly approaching 0.

Again, this is basic geometry and matches all observations of a flat surface.

So right now, you are playing semantics, and trying to switch the meanings of words to pretend there is a contradiction.

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DataOverFlow2022

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Like when we see parallel lines converge in the distance because of perspective.

Which has nothing to do with why the radiation and light of the sun becomes physical blocked by the curvature of the earth which casts a shadow that is night fall.

How does a single point light source like the sun “converge”? 

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turbonium2

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You don’t understand how perspective works.

The surface appears to rise more and more with more distance outward, it never goes less and less higher, which WOULD be the case if the surface was curved, it would curve DOWNWARD more and more with distance, it cannot rise upward more and more over a curved down surface, it makes no sense at all, it is going the opposite direction it would go in.

A continually rising surface is a feature of flat surfaces, not downward curving ones.

When we look out over the surface, it is entirely flat throughout. No curves seen anywhere on it. How can it be seen as entirely flat if it’s curving downward?  There is no curve at all.

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turbonium2

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Quote
So what we observe is the ground appear to rise before it stops and then appears to go down.
This matches what is expected for a RE.

No, the surface appears to rise higher and higher in the distance, to the horizon, the vanishing point of perspective over flat surfaces.

At no point does the surface ever curve downward, the horizon is the highest point we see on the surface, and that’s all we see of it, nothing of it is seen beyond the horizon.

When we see ships go past the horizon, the only part we see of them is higher than the horizon, like a plane above goes past the horizon but is seen because it is higher up than the horizon is at that point. Planes aren’t going downward to the surface at all either, nor are ships going downward on the surface. Both appear to be going downward because of perspective, once again.


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turbonium2

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Quote
How do you think the ship appears to go down if the surface doesn't?

The same reason it appears to rise up when the surface doesn’t rise, because of perspective in both cases.

You try to ignore that it doesn’t rise, but it appears to be rising up and up to the horizon, where a line seems to cross the surface, and is a flat, horizontal line across the surface, nothing of any curve at all over it.

Objects seen going past the horizon seem to dip down, but they are still the same height, when they appear to rise up before they reach the horizon and when they appear to dip down when going beyond the horizon.

You can’t say its perspective causing them to appear to rise up, and say it’s really curving down after the horizon line.

The horizon already appears higher than it is, ships aren’t really rising up on a rising surface either, it doesn’t stop because you want it to fit your ball Earth fairy tale story.


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JackBlack

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No, the surface appears to rise higher and higher in the distance, to the horizon, the vanishing point of perspective over flat surfaces.
No, the surface of the real Earth appears to rise higher and higher into the distance, until it reaches the horizon, which is well before the vanishing point, with observations of objects beyond the horizon showing the surface appear to go down.

The vanishing is infinitely far away.
It would NEVER produce a horizon a finite distance away as that is physically impossible.

The horizon has NOTHING to to with the vanishing point.

At no point does the surface ever curve downward
Again, observations of objects beyond the horizon clearly demonstrates that past the horizon the angle of elevation of the ground goes down.

If you could see through the ground, you would see the ground beyond the horizon appearing to go down.

When we see ships go past the horizon, the only part we see of them is higher than the horizon
Yes, as if they have gone over a hill and the hill, going down on the other side, is making the ship appear lower, and the hill you can see obstructing your view to the ship.

i.e. just like you would expect on a round Earth.

If the horizon really was the vanishing point, the ship would vanish when it reaches the horizon.
And if Earth was flat, the bottom would not magically vanish.

Both appear to be going downward because of perspective, once again.
Except perspective demands that over a flat surface, an object below you should continue to rise forever. That means the bottom of the ship should continue to rise forever and never go out of view.

The same reason it appears to rise up when the surface doesn’t rise, because of perspective in both cases.
So you are saying perspective magically stops and switches?
That for something BELOW you, it will first appear to rise, until it magically stops and switches and appears to go down?

That makes no sense at all, and doesn't happen with any surface which can be verified as flat.

You try to ignore that it doesn’t rise, but it appears to be rising up and up to the horizon
I'm not trying to ignore anything at all.
Conversely, you are directly contradicting yourself; saying it doesn't rise, only to say it does.

where a line seems to cross the surface, and is a flat, horizontal line across the surface, nothing of any curve at all over it.
You mean the clearly roughly circular horizon? Which we know must be roughly circular, because we can trace it around ourselves.

Objects seen going past the horizon seem to dip down
Yes, the very thing I was pointing out.
You can extrapolate to the bottom of the object, i.e. the ground, and observe how that appears to go down.
We can't see it, because the curvature of Earth blocks the view. But by viewing the object above Earth, we can easily determine that Earth is appearing to go down.

when they appear to rise up before they reach the horizon and when they appear to dip down when going beyond the horizon.
You can’t say its perspective causing them to appear to rise up, and say it’s really curving down after the horizon line.
Quite the opposite.
I can in fact say that.
That is because I can say there are 2 competing effects. There is "perspective" which ALWAYS makes it appear to rise, and curvature which makes it go down.

For small distances the down from curvature is negligible, so it appears to go up due to perspective. But it eventually reaches a point (dependent upon observer elevation) where the drop due to curvature becomes significant enough to cause it to appear to go down.

And we also know this MUST be the case. That is because perspective, for an object below, will make it appear to get higher with distance. There is no way for it to make it appear to go down.
So if the object is below you, and appearing to go down as it gets further away, that must be because it IS going down at a rate greater than can be compensated for by perspective.

The one who cannot have it both ways is YOU!

You cannot have perspective make it appear to rise, only to magically flip and make it go down.
There is no reason at all for that.
It is just your pathetic attempt to ignore the fact that Earth is round.

The horizon already appears higher than it is, ships aren’t really rising up on a rising surface either
That depends upon what you mean by "higher than it is".
The horizon appears at the angle it should given the distance.
You see in terms of angles, not height. So the 2 quantities you are comparing are incomparable.

it doesn’t stop because you want it to fit your ball Earth fairy tale story.
Except I'm not the one saying it stops.
I'm the one saying another effect becomes more significant, to show why we know Earth is round in reality.

Conversely, you are the one desperately trying to pretend perspective should magically stop making things below you appear higher with distance; all to save your flat Earth fairy tale.

And yes, that is literally what you are doing.
You are claiming perspective magically stops, yet cannot provide any reason for why it should.