Flocks of birds - a question about basic perspective

Flocks of birds that fly low change their apparent shape a lot as they go from the zenith to the horizon. Flocks of the birds that fly high change their shapes relatively little as they go from the zenith to the horizon. Why is it so if the Earth is flat?

Probably related to that, why don't constellations change their shapes as you move north or south? If the stars are only 3'100 miles up in the sky, shouldn't there be perspective distortions? Also, unless you assume all the stars are at the same height, shouldn't there be parallaxes?

Flock of Seagulls, you say? Bowling for Soup is better.



(Sigh)

You have it backwards. On a level plane, a bird can fly indefinitely without making adjustments. They do curve horizontally around latitude, but this does not require adjustment, as going east, you are typically trying to get straight to a destination at the same latitude. Vertically, no adjustments are made at all. Birds are not intelligent enough to have a theory on the shape of Earth (FE or RE), yet they need to make absolutely no adjustments. If vertical space curved, they would have to adjust 8 ft / mile to keep from veering into space. They would also have to adjust to the southern hemisphere, curving water, and other bullshit. They don't!  If dumb birds and pilots that don't think about the implications of the way they fly can do it, it isn't a thing.

If you're still confused about this, try walking across a flat surface (like a patio). Then try climbing a small hill. Then tell me, which do you have to adjust your movement for? This should be obvious, yet RE ppl still get it wrong. The people who teach them this nonsense invent curved spaces where none exist.



Are you in the circus? Can you balance your body on a ball? I know I can't. And I know I don't have to make adjustments like I see this guy in the video make when standing on the "round" Earth.

Neither do birds. You don't see any fine-tuned adjustments. They simply fly east or south or whatever to get where they're going.

Oh you're talking about shape changing due to perspective. I'd say you need to first learn about this above, because as long as you ascribe to this nonsense, you don't have realistic perspective.

But since you're asking, draw a line of something  heading straight across (say, a plane). Now draw a line from a stick figure (or real person, if you can draw) up to the object flying in a straight line.
You'll notice that the line lengthens and descends. That is, a plane as it flies past you from you first viewing it at about 45 degrees, hits 90 degrees as it is overhead, then the degrees start to go down as you turn around and watch it fly away. This lengthening angle distorts the object. However, if a bird dives toward horizon as it is flying past, the angle only gradually lengthens (though it might drop out of view sooner, I dunno). This is because it tilts downward as you the angle also decreases, reducing lengthening as the angle decreases.

(And yes, I know you denounce gravity. I'm giving the full RE explanation here, so bear with me.)

Your RE explanation is not in line with the Q&A format. Only FE explanation should be made here. That's why your post has been reported.

Quote from: Magicalus on June 13, 2023, 11:41:36 PM

(And yes, I know you denounce gravity. I'm giving the full RE explanation here, so bear with me.)

Your RE explanation is not in line with the Q&A format. Only FE explanation should be made here. That's why your post has been reported.

Ah, my bad! I'll delete it myself. I thought I'd clicked on Debate, not Q&A.

Flock of Seagulls, you say? Bowling for Soup is better.



(Sigh)

You have it backwards. On a level plane, a bird can fly indefinitely without making adjustments. They do curve horizontally around latitude, but this does not require adjustment, as going east, you are typically trying to get straight to a destination at the same latitude. Vertically, no adjustments are made at all. Birds are not intelligent enough to have a theory on the shape of Earth (FE or RE), yet they need to make absolutely no adjustments. If vertical space curved, they would have to adjust 8 ft / mile to keep from veering into space. They would also have to adjust to the southern hemisphere, curving water, and other bullshit. They don't!  If dumb birds and pilots that don't think about the implications of the way they fly can do it, it isn't a thing.

If you're still confused about this, try walking across a flat surface (like a patio). Then try climbing a small hill. Then tell me, which do you have to adjust your movement for? This should be obvious, yet RE ppl still get it wrong. The people who teach them this nonsense invent curved spaces where none exist.



Are you in the circus? Can you balance your body on a ball? I know I can't. And I know I don't have to make adjustments like I see this guy in the video make when standing on the "round" Earth.

Neither do birds. You don't see any fine-tuned adjustments. They simply fly east or south or whatever to get where they're going.

Oh you're talking about shape changing due to perspective. I'd say you need to first learn about this above, because as long as you ascribe to this nonsense, you don't have realistic perspective.

But since you're asking, draw a line of something  heading straight across (say, a plane). Now draw a line from a stick figure (or real person, if you can draw) up to the object flying in a straight line.
You'll notice that the line lengthens and descends. That is, a plane as it flies past you from you first viewing it at about 45 degrees, hits 90 degrees as it is overhead, then the degrees start to go down as you turn around and watch it fly away. This lengthening angle distorts the object. However, if a bird dives toward horizon as it is flying past, the angle only gradually lengthens (though it might drop out of view sooner, I dunno). This is because it tilts downward as you the angle also decreases, reducing lengthening as the angle decreases.

You seem to be completely ignoring my question. Why do flocks of the birds that fly higher change their shape less as they fly from the zenith to the horizon? Also, why are flocks of birds that fly higher visible for longer? If the Earth were flat, I'd expect the flocks of birds that fly higher to be visible for a shorter period of time.

What do you mean by higher? Do you mean (1) they are flying at an arc? (2) Or the same elevation across but higher than other bird flocks?

1. Because the line gets longer along the same altitude. Look at the model I made  earlier. The edges are longer than the center. If they are arcing upward at the center, then the focal length is the same at the center as at the edges due to them flying higher at the center. This decreases distortion because the birds don't appear farther until the last few moments of looking at them.

2. In all likelihood, birds flying higher are also distorting. You just can't see it as well, because they are farther away.

Yes, you're talking about a dive. See #1.

At the zenith, focal length is actually at its shortest, as you can see from the picture. If birds fly higher, they lengthen their focal length to the point where it appears to be equal. If they fly from horizon to zenith, you can see the focal length shortening, hence the distortion.

What do you mean by higher? Do you mean (1) they are flying at an arc? (2) Or the same elevation across but higher than other bird flocks?

1. Because the line gets longer along the same altitude. Look at the model I made  earlier. The edges are longer than the center. If they are arcing upward at the center, then the focal length is the same at the center as at the edges due to them flying higher at the center. This decreases distortion because the birds don't appear farther until the last few moments of looking at them.

2. In all likelihood, birds flying higher are also distorting. You just can't see it as well, because they are farther away.

Yes, you're talking about a dive. See #1.

At the zenith, focal length is actually at its shortest, as you can see from the picture. If birds fly higher, they lengthen their focal length to the point where it appears to be equal. If they fly from horizon to zenith, you can see the focal length shortening, hence the distortion.

[bold mine]
You can perhaps say that about flocks of birds, but you cannot say that about constellations. As you move north or south, constellations shift, but they don't change their shape. If the Earth were flat and the stars were merely 3'100 miles up in the sky, constellations would change their shape depending on where you look at them from.

You have it backwards. On a level plane, a bird can fly indefinitely without making adjustments.

They clearly weren't talking about the birds themselves making adjustments.
Instead, they were talking about the visual distortions expected from perspective.

For example, if you draw a circle on your ceiling, and you stand directly under it and look up, it appears as a circle.
Conversely, if you stand a few m away and look at it, it appears as an ellipse.

If vertical space curved, they would have to adjust 8 ft / mile to keep from veering into space.

Or, they could just maintain a constant altitude. But this isn't about your BS about things like this.

Oh you're talking about shape changing due to perspective. I'd say you need to first learn about this above

You mean you can't defend the FE, so you need to resort to repeating the same dishonest, refuted BS you have already have elsewhere, to pretend Earth can't be round and try saving your fantasy?

You'll notice that the line lengthens and descends. That is, a plane as it flies past you from you first viewing it at about 45 degrees, hits 90 degrees as it is overhead, then the degrees start to go down as you turn around and watch it fly away. This lengthening angle distorts the object. However, if a bird dives toward horizon as it is flying past, the angle only gradually lengthens (though it might drop out of view sooner, I dunno). This is because it tilts downward as you the angle also decreases, reducing lengthening as the angle decreases.

e.g. if a bird is flying low so by the time it goes out of view, the distance to the horizon is small and so the change in angle due to curvature is insignificant; while if it is something much higher, then the change in angle due to curvature can be more significant so it helps negate the change in angle due to perspective.
With the extreme being the stars, where they are so far away, that their change in position just follows the curvature so there is no significant distortion due to the change in angle due to perspective?

i.e. Earth is round.

Why did the moderator move this to Flat Earth General? Flat Earth General is for things unrelated to the Flat Earth Theory. This is about Flat Earth Theory.

Why did the moderator move this to Flat Earth General? Flat Earth General is for things unrelated to the Flat Earth Theory. This is about Flat Earth Theory.

Presumably because you responded.
Flat Earth Q&A is for people to ask questions, and just accept whatever answer the FEers provide. It is not for debate.

But I do agree that it shouldn't have been moved here. FE Debate would be better for it.

Why did the moderator move this to Flat Earth General? Flat Earth General is for things unrelated to the Flat Earth Theory. This is about Flat Earth Theory.

Why do you suppose that FE General is for topics unrelated to flat earth theory? Did you just make that up?

Flat Earth Q&A is for questions about FET, it's not meant to be a debate forum. This thread quickly turned into a discussion, so I moved it so everyone could participate.

Quote from: FlatAssembler on July 06, 2023, 03:48:48 AM

Why did the moderator move this to Flat Earth General? Flat Earth General is for things unrelated to the Flat Earth Theory. This is about Flat Earth Theory.

Presumably because you responded.
Flat Earth Q&A is for people to ask questions, and just accept whatever answer the FEers provide. It is not for debate.

But I do agree that it shouldn't have been moved here. FE Debate would be better for it.

I responded to point out the FEer here didn't address the question.

Flat Earth Wiki acknowledges that the phenomenon I am asking here to be explained is real:

Or, to make a slightly better comparison, a flock of birds at 300 feet will appear to reach the horizon line sooner than a flock of birds at 10,000 feet, despite the two moving at the same speed.

(Flat Earth Wiki is talking about speed, and I was asking about shape, but I think it's the same thing.)
But it doesn't explain why it is so if the Earth is flat.

Quote from: FlatAssembler on July 06, 2023, 03:48:48 AM

Why did the moderator move this to Flat Earth General? Flat Earth General is for things unrelated to the Flat Earth Theory. This is about Flat Earth Theory.

Why do you suppose that FE General is for topics unrelated to flat earth theory? Did you just make that up?

Flat Earth Q&A is for questions about FET, it's not meant to be a debate forum. This thread quickly turned into a discussion, so I moved it so everyone could participate.

Because the description of Flat Earth General is:

For the discussion of any FE topics unrelated to Flat Earth Theory. FE conspiracy topics belong here.

Do you think the birds are in on the conspiracy?

Do you think the birds are in on the conspiracy?

What do you mean? Of course birds cannot be in a conspiracy, birds cannot talk in order to conspire. Only beings which have a language can conspire.

Those of them having studied birds know they have better and more complex communication skills than humans.

It is a blessing to know birds have survived to this day, considering they've endured forces of extinction waged against them.

Bottom line: Birds are most effective communicators.

The penguins and their sinister cousins, the puffins, are definitely conspiring against us.

Those of them having studied birds know they have better and more complex communication skills than humans.

It is a blessing to know birds have survived to this day, considering they've endured forces of extinction waged against them.

Bottom line: Birds are most effective communicators.

Birds that fly high are in a conspiracy to make it seem like the Earth is round by changing the shapes of their flocks.

If you are going to pretend to believe the Earth is flat, at least make half an effort.