They've lied to the world about the stars

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Re: They've lied to the world about the stars
« Reply #1530 on: January 11, 2025, 04:42:36 AM »
You should read their entire reports, it’s a great story indeed.

They wanted it to look very convincing and genuine. They did so.

That’s the best part of it. They didn’t make all that by mistake, it was either true or made up.

We now know they made it up, and that’s the whole point here!

Until you accept that they made it all up, that they lied deliberately, you can’t move along from here, you’ll stay in denial forever instead.

Do you really want the truth, but too afraid to accept it?

We gain nothing by denying the truth. It only hurts you in the end.

Jack prefers to be in denial of the truth. He makes up all the excuses for the truth. He is a true believer in their fairy tale being true.

Their claims were made up bs. Very convincing bs, but still just bs.

It’s just one step, but a most powerful step indeed.

If you can accept their claims were lies, because they are lies, you’re on your way to the whole truth they’ve hidden from us, or tried to hide anyway.

Re: They've lied to the world about the stars
« Reply #1531 on: January 11, 2025, 04:57:00 PM »
Only those astronomers were here with their telescopes 500 years ago, looking at Saturn and drawing what they saw.

Nobody else, 500 years ago, was refuting those astronomers. Do you realise that?

Nobody.

Today, you can post up a hundred different photos of Saturn, taken this week even, and they all show belts across Saturn. They all show the rings of Saturn which those astronomers 500 years ago, dilligently recorded.

What would be their fucking motive for lying, Turbo? Have you thought about a motive for your lying astronomer hypothesis?

They looked at all the different planets in the night sky through their telescopes. Why aren't you harping on about them lying about what they saw of Mars, Jupiter, or Venus?

Why would they ONLY lie about Saturn?

Who would such a lie benefit, 500 years ago? Who would such a lie benefit today?

You have no proof of a mistake, you have no proof of a lie, you have no proof what those astronomers reported they saw 500 years ago of Saturn is much different to what we see today, and you have no motive for them fabricating or lying.

You have no case, Turbo.

Those astronomers 500 years ago are innocent and you have unjustly accused them of lying.

Shame on you.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2025, 04:58:52 PM by Smoke Machine »

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JackBlack

  • 23785
Re: They've lied to the world about the stars
« Reply #1532 on: January 12, 2025, 01:42:18 AM »
The defendants made their claims, without any proof for their claims being true.
And instead of asking them to justify them, or asking those who bring them up to justify them, you baselessly accuse them of lying.
That means the burden is on YOU to show they are lying.

I am not required to show proof of their claims when YOU decided to bring up their claims to call them liars.
The burden is entirely on you.

Just like the defence attorney doesn't need to prove the accused is innocent, they need to show the prosecution has not shown they are guilty.

And if the prosecutor tried to continually say the accused is guilty and they need to prove they are innocent, the jury would almost certainly find them not guilty and the prosecutor would likely lose their job. That is if they don't get laughed out of court for trying that crap.

At this point, there’s enough good videos showing they made it all up without any doubt.
What you have provided certainly isn't. So if there is, where is it?

The much higher quality image from NASA supports their claim.
The better quality images produced by stacking supports their claim.

All you have is the inability to tell with poor footage.

We gain nothing by denying the truth. It only hurts you in the end.
You are clearly gaining something from denying it. It is just a question of what.

Jack prefers to be in denial of the truth. He makes up all the excuses for the truth. He is a true believer in their fairy tale being true.
Projecting again.
You are the one so desperately in denial you continue to refuse to answer simple questions and refuse to provide evidence to back up your claims.

If you can accept their claims were lies, because they are lies, you’re on your way to the whole truth they’ve hidden from us, or tried to hide anyway.
You mean if I accept your lies, I will be on my way to running from the truth you are trying to hide.

Re: They've lied to the world about the stars
« Reply #1533 on: January 31, 2025, 05:33:40 PM »
Only those astronomers were here with their telescopes 500 years ago, looking at Saturn and drawing what they saw.

Nobody else, 500 years ago, was refuting those astronomers. Do you realise that?

Nobody.

Today, you can post up a hundred different photos of Saturn, taken this week even, and they all show belts across Saturn. They all show the rings of Saturn which those astronomers 500 years ago, dilligently recorded.

What would be their fucking motive for lying, Turbo? Have you thought about a motive for your lying astronomer hypothesis?

They looked at all the different planets in the night sky through their telescopes. Why aren't you harping on about them lying about what they saw of Mars, Jupiter, or Venus?

Why would they ONLY lie about Saturn?

Who would such a lie benefit, 500 years ago? Who would such a lie benefit today?

You have no proof of a mistake, you have no proof of a lie, you have no proof what those astronomers reported they saw 500 years ago of Saturn is much different to what we see today, and you have no motive for them fabricating or lying.

You have no case, Turbo.

Those astronomers 500 years ago are innocent and you have unjustly accused them of lying.

Shame on you.

They DID lie about all of them. I told you that I was only focusing on Saturn here, the others can be dealt with afterwards.

Saturn is simply one of them, and it’s better to deal with them one at a time, and then move along to another one, and so on.

If you can’t answer for their claims about Saturn, then admit you can’t answer for it.

Their claims about Saturn were a pack of lies, made up and sold to the world as true.

We’ve seen no multiple distinct belts on Saturn, let alone a unique fixed feature along a distinct belts edge!

Look at the video taken through a far superior telescope to what they had way back then. An iPhone camera isn’t going to blur out multiple distinct belts into one big blotchy feature, and even if it COULD do such bizarre things as that, the entire scene would be blurred out as well, but it’s not at all.

Actual blurs make everything a blur, not just a part of it. Look at your heat haze videos, which blur the whole scene, that’s how actual blurs are seen as.

Not the case with the Saturn video taken through the far superior telescope by an iPhone camera. It doesn’t blur out the ring at all, nor anything else. Just because you want to believe their bs about multiple distinct belts on Saturn, you want to believe only one feature is blurred out by the iPhone camera, but leaves the rest intact and clearly seen, which is completely ridiculous.

This one telescope alone, which your side admits is far superior to what they had back then, would’ve seen these multiple belts, seen them repeatedly.

They’d take all SORTS of videos of Saturn through that telescope, same as they’ve taken videos of the moon through their telescopes for years now…

Your excuse for it, is they don’t take videos of Saturn through their telescopes because Saturn is motionless to see or view through telescopes, anyway, so they don’t need to take videos of Saturn.

Images aren’t relevant to this issue, because their claims were based on what they viewed through their telescopes, they didn’t take images of Saturn through their telescopes, the camera didn’t exist yet, or just came to exist then…

That’s why they DREW what they saw, supposedly.

But obviously, we all know what they DID and MUST see of Saturn, through their telescopes, was seen live, by eye, and that’s exactly what is seen by videos of Saturn, which is the same as seeing Saturn by eye, through a telescope, on a film or video of it.

Their claims of what they SAW, what they claimed to OBSERVE of Saturn through their telescopes, are what we’re comparing to our own evidence now.

Their claims were about seeing those things on Saturn, through a telescope, which is exactly the same as seeing Saturn today, by our eye or by our videos seeing Saturn through telescopes or any instruments today.

Things they claimed to see, through an instrument, and nothing they claimed to see is anything at all about images of Saturn, or a drawing of Saturn they made of it!!

You compare supposed images claimed of NASA, to claims they made of what they saw of Saturn through a telescope??

What they saw by eye, through a telescope, is what we our comparing with our evidence on videos.


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JackBlack

  • 23785
Re: They've lied to the world about the stars
« Reply #1534 on: January 31, 2025, 08:49:37 PM »
They DID lie about all of them.
That is your claim you are yet to substantiate.

Look at the video taken through a far superior telescope to what they had way back then. An iPhone camera isn’t going to blur out multiple distinct belts into one big blotchy feature, and even if it COULD do such bizarre things as that, the entire scene would be blurred out as well, but it’s not at all.
The entire scene was blurred.

They’d take all SORTS of videos of Saturn through that telescope
Why?
Yet again you claim they would be doing something, but you have no justification for it at all.

Again, if you want it, do it yourself.

Images aren’t relevant to this issue, because their claims were based on what they viewed through their telescopes, they didn’t take images of Saturn through their telescopes, the camera didn’t exist yet
Likewise, they didn't take videos.
So I guess videos aren't relavent either.
That means they only way you can tell is if you go to that telescope yourself personally, and look through it.

Not a shitty one you can buy for $5.
One as good or better than theirs.

Re: They've lied to the world about the stars
« Reply #1535 on: January 31, 2025, 09:43:52 PM »
Quote
The much higher quality image from NASA supports their claim.
The better quality images produced by stacking supports their claim.

All you have is the inability to tell with poor footage.

What do you think their claims were entirely based on?

Their claims were based on what they claimed to see, to have observed, of Saturn, in features of Saturn, through their telescope…

They’re claims of what they SAW of Saturn, as it happened to look at the time, over the period of time they saw it.

Their claims of seeing things on Saturn, by eye, looking through a telescope, is the issue here, whether valid claims or not valid.

They claimed to see all of those things on Saturn, through a telescope, and it’s exactly the same way to compare their claims as valid or not valid, possible or not possible….

These are not the only claims ever made to look at with scrutiny, it’s just one case to start with.

When you claim that our instruments today aren’t good enough to see things like they claimed to see back then, you look stupid, spewing on and on about how great and better than our telescopes it was, because it was scrapped long ago, when they had better ones, not if it’s still better than newer ones!

How would an iPhone camera make only one feature blur out into one, big blotch?

Why do you believe it’s not like we see it as?

If you had any basis to believe there are multiple distinct belts, other than their official group called NASA, you’d have an actual case here.

But we have to look at the valid evidence, independent sources of evidence, which we have with all those videos of Saturn, whether good or bad in quality each one is..

The person or persons who took the videos with an iPhone, would’ve first seen Saturn by eye, and then took their videos with their iPhones.

If they saw multiple distinct belts by eye at first, they’d see how their iPhone blurred them out into a huge blotchy mess, no? 

I’ve taken videos with my iPhone camera many times, as many others have. 

They certainly aren’t the best cameras we have, but they don’t blur out things like that, we’d see it blur out things all the time.

When a camera blurs things out for real, it blurs out everything seen in the frame.

But when anything seen is in motion, especially rapid motion, even a camera in focus will blur the object in motion. But show the rest as sharp and clear.

Re: They've lied to the world about the stars
« Reply #1536 on: January 31, 2025, 10:35:46 PM »
Why would you believe their claims of seeing multiple distinct belts and a fixed feature along an edge of one of these belts?

Their telescope had 200x magnification, and a smaller aperture, and a primitive lens, why do you think they scrapped it long ago? Because it was outdated and inferior to newer instruments. 

Arguing all about how great it was and better than any we have today, is all a bunch of bs.

Anything can be said about instruments that don’t exist anymore!  Get serious already.

The last excuse you have left now, is that it’s blurred out by an iPhone camera!!

What if it’s not caused by the iPhone camera? How likely would it be caused by an iPhone camera? Any other times that happens with iPhone cameras?

Let’s even say it’s caused by the iPhone, for arguments sake.

That would mean this telescope shows their multiple distinct belts, but why wouldn’t they ever show it on a video or images of these multiple distinct belts using the best cameras we have today?

We’ve never seen a video or an image of multiple distinct belts taken by that telescope, or any other telescope we have on Earth today.

They’d prove their claim of multiple belts was true, show the world these belts on Saturn for the very first time ever, and become famous for showing them for the first time in all history!

I mean, if they did see those multiple distinct belts back then, we’d see it all the time, but even better and closer than they did back then!!!

That’s just common sense, the logical thing we’d do.

Our greatest telescopes can show Saturns multiple distinct belts to the world, and that’s just one example they never show us exists at all.

The liars don’t care about getting caught lying, when people believe everything they say is true, even when they know it’s a lie!

Sad indeed

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JackBlack

  • 23785
Re: They've lied to the world about the stars
« Reply #1537 on: January 31, 2025, 11:49:27 PM »
What do you think their claims were entirely based on?
Do you mean the astronomers of the past, or NASA?
If the astronomers of the past, what they saw.
If you mean NASA, what their space probes sent back.

Meanwhile, what are your claims based upon? A deep seeded need to reject reality at all costs.

When you claim that our instruments today aren’t good enough to see things like they claimed to see back then, you look stupid
You mean your strawman is stupid.
Their instruments were much better than the cheap crap you appeal to.
Our best telescopes are much better.

How would an iPhone camera make only one feature blur out into one, big blotch?
It doesn't. It blurs the entire thing.
That doesn't mean it blurs it all to just one pixel.

Why do you believe it’s not like we see it as?
Because what you see is consistent with seeing it through a turbulent atmosphere distorting the view, especially how it appears different depending on what you use to view it.

you’d have an actual case here.
Again, the one who needs a case here is YOU!
YOU claimed the lied, the burden is on YOU to demonstrate that. You are yet to come close.

But we have to look at the valid evidence, independent sources of evidence
And that includes NASA, no matter how much you want to pretend it doesn't.

They certainly aren’t the best cameras we have, but they don’t blur out things like that
And how many times have you tried to use an iphone to take a video of something through a telescope?

When a camera blurs things out for real, it blurs out everything seen in the frame.
Just like it did.

Why would you believe their claims
Again, this is about YOUR CLAIMS.

Their telescope had 200x magnification
Which would give Saturn an angular size comparable to that of the moon. That is plenty.

a smaller aperture
Smaller than what? The state of the art telescopes with a 10 m wide one?
Or the cheap crap you appeal to which is just a few cm?

Arguing all about how great it was and better than any we have today, is all a bunch of bs.
Acting like we don't have cheap crap today is a bunch of BS.
People make cheap crap all the time.
Something being old doesn't mean all new devices are better.

The last excuse you have left now
I'm not the one needing excuses here.

What if it’s not caused by the iPhone camera? How likely would it be caused by an iPhone camera? Any other times that happens with iPhone cameras?
You can clearly see the camera attempting to autofocus.
How desperate are you?

why wouldn’t they
Why should they?
Again, if you want it, do it yourself.
Stop expecting everyone to produce whatever you want and pretending it isn't possible if they don't.

They’d prove their claim of multiple belts was true
To any who is honest, there is already abundant evidence. We have photo from space probes.
To lying POS like you, nothing will ever be enough.
Anything that shows you are wrong will be dismissed as fake, or some other pathetic demand will be made.

So what point is there?

become famous for showing them for the first time in all history!
No, they wouldn't.
You are appealing to a complete fantasy.

even better and closer than they did back then!!!
And we did, with space probes. Which lying POS like you dismiss as fake.

Sad indeed
You most certainly are. Still desperate to reject reality, yet completely incapable of defending your claims.

Re: They've lied to the world about the stars
« Reply #1538 on: February 01, 2025, 01:10:57 AM »
Stacking up more lies to support other lies.

I’m sure that iPhone excuse will work out for you too. The lousy telescopes we have didn’t work out so well for you.

You’re trying to defend your liars with an iPhone excuse now, that’s how desperate you’ve become now.

After knowing it’s not about how all our telescopes are crap compared to their long scrapped junk, the better telescope is not showing those multiple belts because an iPhone camera blurred them all out into one blotchy area, by a magical coincidence it looks like one blotchy belt on the other videos too! But it’s not caused by an iPhone for those ones, they used lousy telescopes for there one blotchy area we see on them!

Why do they need to take a video of Saturn anyway. It’s motionless, they said it was!

Stupid iPhone cameras! One day we’ll see those multiple belts they told us they saw!

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JackBlack

  • 23785
Re: They've lied to the world about the stars
« Reply #1539 on: February 01, 2025, 12:53:39 PM »
Stacking up more lies to support other lies.
That does seem to be what you are doing.

Claim the long dead astronomers are lying.
Then claim NASA is lying as well to dismiss the evidence which supports them.
Then lie about the footage you appeal to.

All you can do is lie and lie and lie.
You have NOTHING to justify your lies.

The lousy telescopes we have didn’t work out so well for you.
You mean they didn't help support your case at all.

You’re trying to defend your liars
No, I'm objecting to your entirely baseless claims.

You are yet to even come close to showing they are liars.
But you have demonstrated you are a liar repeatedly.

a magical coincidence it looks like one blotchy belt on the other videos too!
There is no magical coincidence there.
Cheap crap which can't resolve it wont resolve and instead will leave it blurry.

Stupid iPhone cameras! One day we’ll see those multiple belts they told us they saw!
You can already look at the pictures from NASA.
You know an independent body which has verified their claims?
Which you are so desperate to reject you pretend they aren't independent and can't be trusted.

But do you know what your claims lack?
Any evidence to support them.

Re: They've lied to the world about the stars
« Reply #1540 on: February 01, 2025, 02:55:48 PM »
Only those astronomers were here with their telescopes 500 years ago, looking at Saturn and drawing what they saw.

Nobody else, 500 years ago, was refuting those astronomers. Do you realise that?

Nobody.

Today, you can post up a hundred different photos of Saturn, taken this week even, and they all show belts across Saturn. They all show the rings of Saturn which those astronomers 500 years ago, dilligently recorded.

What would be their fucking motive for lying, Turbo? Have you thought about a motive for your lying astronomer hypothesis?

They looked at all the different planets in the night sky through their telescopes. Why aren't you harping on about them lying about what they saw of Mars, Jupiter, or Venus?

Why would they ONLY lie about Saturn?

Who would such a lie benefit, 500 years ago? Who would such a lie benefit today?

You have no proof of a mistake, you have no proof of a lie, you have no proof what those astronomers reported they saw 500 years ago of Saturn is much different to what we see today, and you have no motive for them fabricating or lying.

You have no case, Turbo.

Those astronomers 500 years ago are innocent and you have unjustly accused them of lying.

Shame on you.

They DID lie about all of them. I told you that I was only focusing on Saturn here, the others can be dealt with afterwards.

Saturn is simply one of them, and it’s better to deal with them one at a time, and then move along to another one, and so on.

If you can’t answer for their claims about Saturn, then admit you can’t answer for it.

Their claims about Saturn were a pack of lies, made up and sold to the world as true.

We’ve seen no multiple distinct belts on Saturn, let alone a unique fixed feature along a distinct belts edge!

Look at the video taken through a far superior telescope to what they had way back then. An iPhone camera isn’t going to blur out multiple distinct belts into one big blotchy feature, and even if it COULD do such bizarre things as that, the entire scene would be blurred out as well, but it’s not at all.

Actual blurs make everything a blur, not just a part of it. Look at your heat haze videos, which blur the whole scene, that’s how actual blurs are seen as.

Not the case with the Saturn video taken through the far superior telescope by an iPhone camera. It doesn’t blur out the ring at all, nor anything else. Just because you want to believe their bs about multiple distinct belts on Saturn, you want to believe only one feature is blurred out by the iPhone camera, but leaves the rest intact and clearly seen, which is completely ridiculous.

This one telescope alone, which your side admits is far superior to what they had back then, would’ve seen these multiple belts, seen them repeatedly.

They’d take all SORTS of videos of Saturn through that telescope, same as they’ve taken videos of the moon through their telescopes for years now…

Your excuse for it, is they don’t take videos of Saturn through their telescopes because Saturn is motionless to see or view through telescopes, anyway, so they don’t need to take videos of Saturn.

Images aren’t relevant to this issue, because their claims were based on what they viewed through their telescopes, they didn’t take images of Saturn through their telescopes, the camera didn’t exist yet, or just came to exist then…

That’s why they DREW what they saw, supposedly.

But obviously, we all know what they DID and MUST see of Saturn, through their telescopes, was seen live, by eye, and that’s exactly what is seen by videos of Saturn, which is the same as seeing Saturn by eye, through a telescope, on a film or video of it.

Their claims of what they SAW, what they claimed to OBSERVE of Saturn through their telescopes, are what we’re comparing to our own evidence now.

Their claims were about seeing those things on Saturn, through a telescope, which is exactly the same as seeing Saturn today, by our eye or by our videos seeing Saturn through telescopes or any instruments today.

Things they claimed to see, through an instrument, and nothing they claimed to see is anything at all about images of Saturn, or a drawing of Saturn they made of it!!

You compare supposed images claimed of NASA, to claims they made of what they saw of Saturn through a telescope??

What they saw by eye, through a telescope, is what we our comparing with our evidence on videos.

Well, as least you know how to stay on topic. I'll give you that.

You'd also be a world champion at flogging a dead horse.

I'm restricted to posting on this forum from my phone as my laptop is out of commission. As such, I am restricted from posting up and comparing recent images of Saturn, to 500 year old drawings of Saturn.

But even so, you do know how to squint, yes? Squinting removes detail, and allows you to see the shadow and light of what's before you. That is what the crude telescopes of 500 years ago were doing. Allowing the viewer to see basic shadow and light of Saturn, enough for them to see belts of light and shade across Saturn, which is what they drew.

Do you hold credentials as being an expert on planets, Turbonium? If not, why are you saying Saturn as seen through a telescope today, must have looked exactly the same 500 years ago when seen through a telescope?

You have built your entire case for those astronomers 500 years ago being liars, around this unproven, unlikely, and ultimately a false premise.

As a flat earther, you don't subscribe to what science says the rings of Saturn are, or what different colors are, seen on Saturn's surface, do you?

Why don't you tell us all what the flat earther explanation for Saturn's rings, and different colors seen on Saturn, is?

Re: They've lied to the world about the stars
« Reply #1541 on: February 02, 2025, 03:45:47 AM »
Stacking up more lies to support other lies.
That does seem to be what you are doing.

Claim the long dead astronomers are lying.
Then claim NASA is lying as well to dismiss the evidence which supports them.
Then lie about the footage you appeal to.

All you can do is lie and lie and lie.
You have NOTHING to justify your lies.

The lousy telescopes we have didn’t work out so well for you.
You mean they didn't help support your case at all.

You’re trying to defend your liars
No, I'm objecting to your entirely baseless claims.

You are yet to even come close to showing they are liars.
But you have demonstrated you are a liar repeatedly.

a magical coincidence it looks like one blotchy belt on the other videos too!
There is no magical coincidence there.
Cheap crap which can't resolve it wont resolve and instead will leave it blurry.

Stupid iPhone cameras! One day we’ll see those multiple belts they told us they saw!
You can already look at the pictures from NASA.
You know an independent body which has verified their claims?
Which you are so desperate to reject you pretend they aren't independent and can't be trusted.

But do you know what your claims lack?
Any evidence to support them.

Hundreds or more videos showing their claims are falsehoods are not evidence to you?

Because you say that’s not evidence, and make up crappy excuses for hundreds of videos that ARE valid and independent sources, hundreds of independent sources, all matching up to the others, accounting for their quality of footage, of course.

It’s not just that none of them show any multiple distinct belts at all, no distinct feature on a belts edge, nor anything else they claimed to see on Saturns orb, which specifically described Saturn as a slowly rotating ‘planet’, and ever since then!

The first indication their claims look sketchy is not because no videos or images existed yet.

The very first sign of deception was hiding away telescopes from us, never allowing anyone else to have or buy one, for any price at all, and never building or selling any telescopes the same as theirs, or any telescope period!

They finally had no choice but to sell the first telescope to the public, and it was complete garbage, the best binoculars we had at the time were far better instruments than that crappy so called telescope.

The next indication of being fishy, a big sign of it, was that they never looked at everything again, with ever better telescopes they developed over the last 200 years.

They never did one more study of Saturn again, check out and verify their reports and time of rotation, with far superior telescopes.

Another sign of bs is that NASA claimed to have sent a ‘space probe’ out to Saturn, and timed its rotation, and said the time was incredibly close to theirs 200 years ago!

Which means they never looked and validated and refined their reports and claims ever again, or maybe nasa forgot about the later reports, but none exist, it seems, so that’s not the case.

It’s not because there’s many other things to look and study above us, everything is repeatedly looked at again and again, through ever better telescopes….

Look at the telescope used for the video taken by an iPhone, that’s the first video of Saturn through the worlds greatest telescope a century ago?!?!

If they could see all this by eye 200 years ago with a far inferior telescope, it would’ve been seen many many more times, and they’d take lots of images and videos of it through telescopes just like THIS one!

We’d use the best cameras to take images and videos of Saturn, to further confirm and validate their first reports, refine them, with better instruments, this is how sciences always act, except for Saturn, so far at least.

There’s no need to look into others at this point, their claims about Saturn are proven as falsehoods.

Your drivel about having no evidence their claims were falsehoods, or lies, is complete nonsense.

Those who find someone’s claims have no valid evidence, will present their claims as having no evidence, or very little evidence, or so on…

We allow those who made these claims to show valid evidence, or those who support their claims as true.

Those who present others claims as having no evidence, do not have to look for evidence of OTHERS claims, and if none is ever found, and there is solid evidence against their claims as true….

They are regarded as lies, or most likely as lies, but when we look at their claims about Saturn, it is their detailed descriptions they claimed to see which make them lies beyond any doubt.

When a superior telescope shown their claims weren’t true, your saying that’s not evidence because it was taken by an iPhone camera is what YOU claim, and what YOU have no evidence of as true.

Your iPhone claim is complete bs, you haven’t a shred of evidence for it, why do you think your iPhone bs claim needs no evidence for it, you just say it’s true, and everyone must accept it as true? What an arrogant fool, you are.

You had to change your excuse after it was proven as bs, and no, it’s not up to me to prove your iPhone bs claim has no evidence, there is no evidence for it, and YOU are the one who CLAIMED it, which means YOU must prove your claim is true with valid evidence!!

All you do is make up excuses for their bs claims, and then say I have no evidence they lied!

Right, because your claim that an iPhone camera did it, and you want me to believe your crap as true?

Sure, you say it’s an iPhone causing it to blur out multiple distinct rings, or it’s caused by this or that, and then say I have no evidence their claims were lies!! 

Anything you make up as an excuse is just endless bs.

Anyone who tries to say it’s due to an iPhone camera, is hopelessly delusional.

Is that all models of iPhones, or this model used here? Do you even know what the model of iPhone it is?

Show me other videos taken by iPhone cameras which do this…

Actually, it is all shown by the telescope that way, before we look through it at Saturn by eye or by camera, any type of camera.

I’d really like to see your evidence for what they claimed of seeing multiple distinct belts, that is the first claim made here, over 200 years ago, and has never had any evidence for it. You act like their claim of multiple distinct belts is true, unless I can prove it’s NOT true!

That’s not how it works. The one who claims something or those who support their claims must show evidence for it.

You claim it’s due to the iPhone camera, without a shred of valid evidence for your claim.

While I have shown their claims as falsehoods, with abundant evidence for it. And I have no need to show ANY evidence their claims were falsehoods, when it is their claims which must have evidence for them to begin with.

In a court of law, their claims    would be prosecuted as having no evidence to support their claims as being true.

Those claims should have been put in a court of law, because they were very significant claims that if are true, have many further implications beyond that.

If you don’t think their claims were important and significant, they certainly show how they are now.

Their claims made Saturn into a planet, described by them seeing distinct features on Saturn, as multiple distinct belts, and seeing their edges, and seeing a very distinct feature on one edge of a belt, and seeing this distinct feature fixed in position on Saturn, on a belts edge, after seeing its entire edges which had half of its edges as parallel to one another, and the other half as not parallel, where they saw this unique and distinct feature on an edge of it, fixed in position on Saturn, and saw it had moved to other positions on Saturn hours or whatever time they saw Saturn later on that night.


You should already understand that they were the ones who made those claims about Saturn, thats very obvious to see.

Since you are defending their claims as not being lies, or no evidence they are lies, then you must first show evidence FOR their claims, because they had no evidence for their claims to begin with, and never did, and died without any evidence for their claims.


You cannot come into a courtroom, tell the judge you didn’t claim anything, they did, without any evidence for it, so you don’t need to show any evidence for their claims, but you can demand to see evidence of what they said about their claims being lies!!

Why would you ever think you can defend their claims in not being lies, but think you don’t need evidence for their claims at all to begin with?

You’re acting for their claims, defending their claims, and you must show evidence for these claims you are defending as if you made those claims yourself.

Not a half assed pick and choose for you to demand that others  say or believe about their claims.

Your off your rocker. 









Re: They've lied to the world about the stars
« Reply #1542 on: February 02, 2025, 04:09:16 AM »
I’ve built a case that shows their claims about Saturn weren’t true, with all the evidence showing their claims aren’t true, with no evidence for their claims ever shown to this very day, over 200 years after they made those claims.

It is the evidence which decides whether or not their claims were true or false.

And nobody can have over 200 years without evidence for their claims before it’s found as not true, based on all the evidence against it being true, with 200 years they had to show any evidence for their claims without any.

Why do you believe their claims don’t need any evidence to accept as true?

It doesn’t matter if you didn’t make those claims, people who claim things die later on, those who defend their claims act for those claims as their own in their place, and for the whole claim they made, not in a part of their claim.

*

JackBlack

  • 23785
Re: They've lied to the world about the stars
« Reply #1543 on: February 02, 2025, 12:35:20 PM »
Hundreds or more videos showing their claims are falsehoods are not evidence to you?
You are yet to provide anything like that.
Instead you provide videos which can't tell one way or the other.

I've told you what you could use and you make excuses for why you shouldn't get it.

The first indication their claims look sketchy is not because no videos or images existed yet.
Which now further demonstrates your dishonesty and desperation.
They weren't able to take them because they didn't exist at their time. So that isn't surprising.
We have plenty of images showing it, but you said it isn't about images.

The very first sign of deception was hiding away telescopes from us
You mean YOUR deception where you lie about what they did.
No one is hiding them away from you.
No one is stopping you getting your own.
Even in the past, people were allowed to make their own or buy one.
Just most people didn't give a damn.

The next indication of being fishy, a big sign of it, was that they never looked at everything again
Another lie, as already shown with the studies looking at it again.

Another sign of bs is that NASA claimed to have sent a ‘space probe’ out to Saturn, and timed its rotation, and said the time was incredibly close to theirs 200 years ago!
You mean a sign of the claim being true.
You have a very strange idea of what makes something BS.
You are literally saying someone verifying the claims shows it is BS.

they’d take lots of images and videos of it through telescopes just like THIS one!
Why?
You keep asserting that but you are yet to justify it.
Why should they take videos?
(We already have plenty of images).

There’s no need to look into others at this point, their claims about Saturn are proven as falsehoods.
No, they aren't.
You are yet to come close.

Those who find someone’s claims have no valid evidence, will present their claims as having no evidence
That's right. Notice a key part missing from that statement? They will not present them as lies.

You chose to present them as lies so the burden is on you to demonstrate they are.

In a court of law, their claims    would be prosecuted as having no evidence to support their claims as being true.
No, in a court of law, you have made the claim that they are lying.
So they would be prosecuted by you, having to prove they lied.
You don't get to say they haven't proved they didn't.
You need to prove they did.
Yet you keep appealing to this dishonest BS.

Either retract your claims they lied, or prove it.

Re: They've lied to the world about the stars
« Reply #1544 on: February 02, 2025, 02:14:10 PM »
I’ve built a case that shows their claims about Saturn weren’t true, with all the evidence showing their claims aren’t true, with no evidence for their claims ever shown to this very day, over 200 years after they made those claims.

It is the evidence which decides whether or not their claims were true or false.

And nobody can have over 200 years without evidence for their claims before it’s found as not true, based on all the evidence against it being true, with 200 years they had to show any evidence for their claims without any.

Why do you believe their claims don’t need any evidence to accept as true?

It doesn’t matter if you didn’t make those claims, people who claim things die later on, those who defend their claims act for those claims as their own in their place, and for the whole claim they made, not in a part of their claim.

Well, Turbonium, I already have evidence which strongly suggests their claims were true.

To be candid, I was cleaning out my shed recently, and stumbled upon my National Geographic magazine collection. Lo and behold, the edition on the top of the pile was Vol. 160, no. 1 July 1981, with a striking color photo of Saturn on the cover. Inside, are many different photos of Saturn.

In every photo of Saturn in that magazine, Turbonium, Saturn has clearly defined belts across it's planetary atmosphere or surface. The belts are well defined, just like the belts recorded in drawings of Saturn by those astronomers 500 years ago.

That magazine even features one such drawing by astronomer Jean Dominique Cassini in 1676. It's a crude drawing to be sure, showcasing mainly Saturn's rings, but stretched across the circular shape of Saturn, is you a guessed it - a belt.

That magazine is already evidence those Astronomers didn't lie, and that's without even looking for evidence. It was staring me in the face from my messy shed.

So, what have you got to say about that, huh?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2025, 03:19:23 PM by Smoke Machine »

Re: They've lied to the world about the stars
« Reply #1545 on: February 14, 2025, 04:52:31 PM »
I’ve built a case that shows their claims about Saturn weren’t true, with all the evidence showing their claims aren’t true, with no evidence for their claims ever shown to this very day, over 200 years after they made those claims.

It is the evidence which decides whether or not their claims were true or false.

And nobody can have over 200 years without evidence for their claims before it’s found as not true, based on all the evidence against it being true, with 200 years they had to show any evidence for their claims without any.

Why do you believe their claims don’t need any evidence to accept as true?

It doesn’t matter if you didn’t make those claims, people who claim things die later on, those who defend their claims act for those claims as their own in their place, and for the whole claim they made, not in a part of their claim.

Well, Turbonium, I already have evidence which strongly suggests their claims were true.

To be candid, I was cleaning out my shed recently, and stumbled upon my National Geographic magazine collection. Lo and behold, the edition on the top of the pile was Vol. 160, no. 1 July 1981, with a striking color photo of Saturn on the cover. Inside, are many different photos of Saturn.

In every photo of Saturn in that magazine, Turbonium, Saturn has clearly defined belts across it's planetary atmosphere or surface. The belts are well defined, just like the belts recorded in drawings of Saturn by those astronomers 500 years ago.

That magazine even features one such drawing by astronomer Jean Dominique Cassini in 1676. It's a crude drawing to be sure, showcasing mainly Saturn's rings, but stretched across the circular shape of Saturn, is you a guessed it - a belt.

That magazine is already evidence those Astronomers didn't lie, and that's without even looking for evidence. It was staring me in the face from my messy shed.

So, what have you got to say about that, huh?

That it’s not evidence at all.

We see Saturn live, same as they did back then. Not by still shots.

All our videos show Saturn in motion, and never show multiple distinct belts. That’s the very most THEY would have seen of Saturn back then as well.

We’d always see Saturn as motionless and show multiple distinct belts on our videos, and by eye through telescopes. But we never have or will, so how could they ever have, let alone all the time?




Re: They've lied to the world about the stars
« Reply #1546 on: February 14, 2025, 09:20:37 PM »
Their claims are the issue here, I’m the one who presented them as the issue here.

Everyone else here, you and me and all others here, haven’t anything to do with it, unless they are supporting their claims as true, in their place, like a lawyer supports a clients case and claims in a court of law!

Their claims are on trial, questioned, asked to show evidence to support as true and valid claims.

How can we have a trial on nothing? I’m saying their claims have no proof or evidence to support them at all.

That’s an absolute fact. Images from NASA or whoever else are worthless, their claims are based on what they saw through a telescope, nothing about images.

This would be like if we always saw Saturn through a telescope for a split second and stopped seeing it any longer than that.

A split second view of Saturn, that’s it! Each and every time we looked at Saturn was a split second of time. A snapshot view of it, which would be much the same as images are.

That’s also assuming they’re valid images to start with.

Whether or not these images are valid, doesn’t matter, they aren’t legitimate evidence.

Images aren’t what we see through telescopes or cameras or by eye.

If we never knew or had seen a dog before, and saw a dog on images, we wouldn’t know if it moved or was motionless from images of it. We’d see it in different positions, because someone moved them around to other positions, perhaps!

Objects that are in motion, aren’t seen in motion with images. That’s the point here.

We have taken videos of everything on Earth, motionless and in motion, from ocean waves to still ponds, from airplanes flying to planes still on a tarmac.

Everyone has seen and is well aware that the moon always looks motionless to us, but we’ve taken countless VIDEOS of it! We haven’t said ‘why bother taking a video of the moon, it doesn’t move at all!’

That’s exactly what your trying to argue about Saturn, that nobody has to see it on a video, because it’s motionless, so they don’t bother to take videos of Saturn, only take images of it!

When did anyone ever see Saturn as motionless, through any telescope, to ever have claimed to see Saturn as a motionless object?

Their claims of what they saw of Saturn, that is our comparison and what is taken as valid evidence or not valid evidence.

Their entire story of Saturn, is based on what they claimed to SEE of that object, through a telescope, over and over again, for many years!

They’re saying it’s clearly seen as motionless, by all their descriptions of things they claimed to see on Saturn.

Their claims of what they saw on Saturn, like those multiple distinct belts on Saturn they claimed to see, did not have images at all!

So when you claim that images from NASA are valid evidence, that’s complete bs.

You think they really could have seen such things on Saturn, depicting it as a motionless object, by claiming to see multiple distinct belts on Saturn, and see a distinct feature at one position on a belts edge, and later seeing that feature at other positions on Saturn, and eventually timed Saturns rotation by this?

While all of their claims have no evidence at all, you hide away in fear that they lied, and were caught in their lies.

Anything they said, may have no proof, or you say does have proof, with NASA images as your idea of being proof.

They had no images of Saturn, they saw it through a telescope by eye. As it happened to be seen at the time, each time they saw it.

That’s how we have to see Saturn as well, as they would have seen it back then…

Not with any sort of images, they never did.

Saturn is nothing close to what they claimed to see of it back then. Entirely different in fact.



Re: They've lied to the world about the stars
« Reply #1547 on: February 14, 2025, 10:48:22 PM »
I’m basing my viewpoint that their claims are lies, falsehoods, on all the evidence we have now.

You say that all of the evidence is not evidence at all.

You also say their telescope was far better than any of ours today. It doesn’t even exist, so you’re lying about knowing it was better than any we have today.

After you saw a video taken through a far superior telescope, again showing nothing like they claimed to see back then….

You invented a new excuse, because you’ll never accept that they were liars…

To you, we’d have seen multiple distinct belts through that telescope, by looking through it by eye.

We didn’t see those multiple belts on the video, because it was shot by an iPhone camera, then it was further degraded by putting it online!

These are your claims, both of which you have no evidence for..

You make claims without any proof, but say I need proof of my argument?!?!

No, you need to prove your goofy excuses are valid claims at all.

You’ve used online videos and images as your own evidence, so you’re already showing that you’re a hypocrite.

Your iPhone excuse is a complete joke.

Many people have iPhones and use their cameras, me included.

We see Saturn as it is, through that telescope.

That’s why it looks much the same as it does in other videos, too.

What you’re trying to claim is that this video taken through a superior telescope shows the same thing as on other videos, but an iPhone caused it!

And made it look like the other videos, which is amazing indeed!

*

JackBlack

  • 23785
Re: They've lied to the world about the stars
« Reply #1548 on: February 14, 2025, 10:58:53 PM »
We see Saturn live, same as they did back then. Not by still shots.
They saw it using their eyes, not a video.
So if you want to go by that, any video is not evidence.

All our videos show Saturn in motion
You are yet to provide a single one which does.

That’s the very most THEY would have seen of Saturn back then as well.
That remains your baseless claim.

We’d always see Saturn as motionless and show multiple distinct belts on our videos, and by eye through telescopes.
No, we wouldn't.
Instead, it would depend on the telescope and the conditions.

Their claims are the issue here, I’m the one who presented them as the issue here.
No, the issue here is YOUR claim that they lied about the stars.

If you wish to retract your claims, admit you have no basis at all to claim they lied, admit you lied to us every time you claimed to have proven they lied (or the like), and instead just focus on their claims, go ahead.
Until you do so, the issue remains YOUR CLAIM that they lied.

a court of law!
Again, if you want to compare this to a court of law, you are the prosecutor.
You have made the allegation that they lied.
The burden is now on you to show they did.
If you are unable to meet that burden then they presumption of innocence prevails.

And to make it more ridiculous, they are dead and so they can't defend themselves.

I’m saying their claims have no proof or evidence to support them at all.
That is not all you are saying.
You are claiming that they lied.
If you want to do the above, admitting you have lied to everyone repeatedly, then you can focus on that lesser claim you still haven't justified, and which has been refuted.

That’s an absolute fact. Images from NASA or whoever else are worthless
PURE BS
That is your blatant lie which you are so desperate to cling to because you are desperate for your fantasy to be true.

NASA is an independent source which has verified their claims.

their claims are based on what they saw through a telescope, nothing about images.
And equally nothing about videos.
So if images are worthless, so are videos.

Especially given our eyes typically have better resolution than videos.

we wouldn’t know if it moved or was motionless from images of it.
Who cares.
You are yet to demonstrate they claimed it was motionless.

Instead, there observations are far more like images, describing what they saw at that time, and then what they saw at some other time.

Everyone has seen and is well aware that the moon always looks motionless to us, but we’ve taken countless VIDEOS of it!
Including plenty which show atmospheric turbulence distorting the view.
But more importantly, how many of these are simply videos of the moon, vs something else?

That’s exactly what your trying to argue about Saturn
Quite the opposite.
You are trying to argue that people should have taken videos of Saturn, where there is really no basis for it.

When did anyone ever see Saturn as motionless, through any telescope, to ever have claimed to see Saturn as a motionless object?
Simpler question, when did anyone ever claim to see Saturn as a motionless object?

They’re saying it’s clearly seen as motionless
PROVE IT!
You have pulled this BS before, lied to everyone and then fled like a lying coward.

You are yet to provide anything which indicates they claim to see it as motionless, especially not the way you are pretending.

Their claims of what they saw on Saturn, like those multiple distinct belts on Saturn they claimed to see, did not have images at all!
Yes they did.
They drew pictures of what they saw.
Do you know what was entirely absent? VIDEOS!

While all of their claims have no evidence at all, you hide away in fear that they lied, and were caught in their lies.
You mean which has plenty of evidence you dismiss because it doesn't match your fantasy.

Saturn is nothing close to what they claimed to see of it back then. Entirely different in fact.
Prove it.

I’m basing my viewpoint that their claims are lies, falsehoods, on all the evidence we have now.
No, you aren't.
Your previous post was all about how you are ignoring loads of evidence.
That means you are NOT making it based on all the evidence.

You also say their telescope was far better than any of ours today.
Another lie from you.

After you saw a video taken through a far superior telescope
You mean through a shitty iphone that was too busy autofocusing?
Which is already apparent from the footage alone with the focus changing throughout the video.
Strange how you keep wanting to ignore it.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2025, 11:01:08 PM by JackBlack »

Re: They've lied to the world about the stars
« Reply #1549 on: February 15, 2025, 12:33:46 AM »
I’m the one who presented this issue, showed you the issue, which is their claims about Saturn.

Why would you think I need to find what you think is proof they are lies, when you have no proof of their claims about Saturn?

You think up some sort of imaginary proof, you can get it yourself, it’s your problem, not mine, you arrogant dipshit.

You’re just a coward. You think they didn’t lie, why not prove it? The only way to prove they didn’t lie is to prove their claims are true, anyone but you knows that much.

Someone claims this or that, and must show proof of their claims as true.

But not to you, they can claim anything they want without any proof, but don’t say they lied, you must show proof they lied, they don’t need proof at all for their bs claims!

A monkey knows better than you do.


Prove their multiple distinct belts aren’t lies, with actual evidence of it being TRUE.

But you’ll keep trying to hide from that, your liars never have to prove all their bs claims at all!

So it’s down to an iPhone camera now! Why haven’t they shown Saturns multiple distinct belts using a great camera by now?

It’s that easy to prove their claims are true, show these multiple distinct belts on Saturn to the world for the very first time! 

Why wouldn’t they do that? Why would we need to use an iPhone camera for it? 

Or why would anyone be so stupid to think they’re not interested in showing the world these magical distinct belts on Saturn?

Re: They've lied to the world about the stars
« Reply #1550 on: February 15, 2025, 12:48:24 AM »
First thing we need to see is Saturn as motionless, that’d be a good start. If you claim it’s always caused by eternally present atmospheric effects, why wouldn’t they see it the same way we always do? Maybe it started after they saw Saturn, and never stops acting now!!

Their long scrapped junk was far better than what we have 200 years later on, we all know that is true, because you said it was!

The day you ever find a video showing multiple distinct belts would be a miracle, and only takes filming Saturn without an iPhone!  Wonder when they might think it’s a good idea to do that some day?  Just that easy to prove your liars are not exactly that, but you know better than that!


*

JackBlack

  • 23785
Re: They've lied to the world about the stars
« Reply #1551 on: February 15, 2025, 01:27:16 AM »
I’m the one who presented this issue
Yes, You are the one started a thread tilted "They've lied to the world about the stars".
This made the issue YOUR CLAIM that they lied.

You have continued in this thread repeatedly asserting that they lied and even claiming to have proven they lied.

You’re just a coward.
Says the one coming on here accusing others of lying and then making excuses as to why they don't need to back up their claims.

The only way to prove they didn’t lie
Again, not my burden.
Just like a defendant in a court of law doesn't actually need to prove they are innocnent.
Instead all they need to demonstrate is a reasonable doubt to their guilt, i.e. to show the prosecution has not proven beyond a reasonable doubt that they are guility.

So no, I don't need to prove they didn't lie.
Especially not when any evidence that shows they didn't you just dismiss as a lie.
Instead, you need to prove they did lie.

Or you retract your claims that they did and admit you have lied every time you claimed to have proven they did.

A monkey knows better than you do.
Projecting again I see.

Prove
No.
YOU prove their claims are lies, or admit you can't and have been lying to everyone.

But you’ll keep trying to hide from that, your liars never have to prove all their bs claims at all!
And more projection.
Notice that you are literally describing what you are doing now.
YOU made a claim, a claim that they are liars.
I objected to this claim and demanded you prove it.
You are now trying to make up excuses as to why YOU shouldn't have to prove YOUR claim, and instead acting like I should have to prove someone else's claims.

So the lying coward here is you.

Why haven’t they shown Saturns multiple distinct belts using a great camera by now?
They have, with a space probe.
But ask yourself.
Why haven't YOU?
Why haven't you spent the money or a state of the art telescope and state of the art camera and used it to film Saturn?

Why not?

It’s that easy to prove their claims are true, show these multiple distinct belts on Saturn to the world for the very first time!
Given the fact that lying POS like you would likely just dismiss it as fake like you dismiss so much, why would anyone bother?

First thing we need to see is Saturn as motionless
No. Before that, you would need to show where they claimed it was.
Or do I need to go back to the examples where I clearly demonstrated you are a lying coward?
With you entirely incapable of answering a trivial question.

Their long scrapped junk was far better than what we have 200 years later on, we all know that is true, because you said it was!
Now try that the other way.
Their long scrapped junk is far worse than even the cheapest crap we have today, because you say so.