Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2

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So.  More was posted in another thread that got me thinking again.

Den pressure seems to ignore the atmosphere is primarily moisture, diatomic nitrogen, diatomic oxygen, and argon.


This is their molecular weights.

Quote
Nitrogen – 28.0134 g/mol

Oxygen – 31.9988 g/mol

Argon – 39.948 g/mol

https://unacademy.com/content/question-answer/chemistry/what-is-the-molecular-weight-of-air/#:~:text=Air%20is%20a%20mixture%20of%20several%20gasses%20where%20the%20two,carbon%20dioxide%20of%20about%200.03%25.&text=We%20get%2028.96%20g%2Fmol,the%20molecular%20weight%20of%20Air


It seemed strange in the den pressure delusion that makes claims about things with different densities should fall at different rates and atmospheric stacking where on earth the atmosphere has a uniform mixer of gasses of different molecular weights for a given volume?

Then I started to think about the molecular weight of water. 

Quote

18 g/mol

https://www.cmu.edu/gelfand/lgc-educational-media/polymers/what-is-polymer/molecular-weight-calculation.html#:~:text=Using%20the%20periodic%20table%20of,)%20%3D%2018%20grams%2Fmole.



18 g/mol seems relatively light compared to N2 at 28.0134 g/mol and O2 31.9988 g/mol.

Never really made the connection before. 

In round earth, water is liquid at room temperature because of hydrogen bonds? 

(In den pressure where there are no nuclear forces, no gravity, and work can be done without displacing anything, wonder what the madeup replacement for hydrogen bonds will be?)

In den pressure:

One: why doesn’t the atmospheric gasses layer out by molecular weight/densities? Instead of the witnessed uniform mixture? 

Two:  why is water being lighter per molecule liquid at room temp while heavier molecules like diatomic nitrogen and diatomic oxygen are gasses at room temp.

And while water is solid ice, why are the heavier diatomic nitrogen and diatomic oxygen still gasses?

I would think in den pressure, items with heavier molecular weights would be liquids before items with less molecular weight? 

Three: How are lighter water molecules in the oceans “held” down by heavier molecules like N2 and O2?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2023, 12:00:36 PM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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Alexei

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Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2023, 12:03:39 PM »
I haven't studied denpressure yet but I can say that some of the flat earth models do have some errors on them.

Some of them are a bit flawed (which I'll admit) while others make a bit more sense.


Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2023, 03:31:25 PM »
I haven't studied denpressure yet

Good luck with that.

The biggest pusher of den pressure, sceptimatic will not make a thread listing the “laws” of den pressure.  Nor reference a past thread that might list the “laws” of den pressure. Nor list a reference that is laid out in a logical manner.
 
You just have to find where sceptimatic has tried to derail threads.  And made up den pressure add hoc. 


The person can post whole pages trying to change subjects, move goal posts, ignore documented experiments where objects of different densities drop at the same rate, ignore the gas laws, but can’t make one thread logically listings exactly what den pressure is, and how it should work. 


Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2023, 06:59:28 PM »
I haven't studied denpressure yet but I can say that some of the flat earth models do have some errors on them.

Some of them are a bit flawed (which I'll admit) while others make a bit more sense.

You'll have to double check with Sceptimatic, but t'would seem the entire earth under the dome with a flat base that we walk on, is a pressurised den? In this den pressure system, all objects mysteriously move "down" towards the ground, not because of gravity, but just because, and because of the density of their molecular make-up. No explanation is offered as to why denser objects move down, rather than up, or left, or right.

It's a make-up theory all right.

As for molecular weight, well, weight is weight, and weight is only weight because of the gravitational field an object is in. Your weight here on Earth will be far less on the moon. A good place to go if having joined weight watchers.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2023, 07:05:15 PM by Smoke Machine »

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sceptimatic

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Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2023, 11:07:11 PM »
In den pressure:

One: why doesn’t the atmospheric gasses layer out by molecular weight/densities? Instead of the witnessed uniform mixture? 
They do if they're allowed to take their place among the layers and are not trapped within denser molecules.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Two:  why is water being lighter per molecule liquid at room temp while heavier molecules like diatomic nitrogen and diatomic oxygen are gasses at room temp.
Maybe understand why room temperature is what it is.


Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
And while water is solid ice, why are the heavier diatomic nitrogen and diatomic oxygen still gasses?
Because there are so many variations of molecular breakdown.
What you're offering is not helping you.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
I would think in den pressure, items with heavier molecular weights would be liquids before items with less molecular weight? 
That depends on the make-up, as above.
It's all about pressures and energy and you're not offering anything other than just offering elements as if they just sit there as is and don't require energy or storage.

You need to be more basic and clearer if you want to get it from my side.

And don't mention weight because weight is a scale measurement of any dense mass displacement of atmosphere. Unless you're weighing individual broken-down molecules on a scale. Are you?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Three: How are lighter water molecules in the oceans “held” down by heavier molecules like N2 and O2?
Not sure what you mean by lighter in oceans against N2 and O2.
Make it a bit clearer.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2023, 11:11:08 PM by sceptimatic »

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sceptimatic

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Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2023, 11:08:00 PM »
I haven't studied denpressure yet but I can say that some of the flat earth models do have some errors on them.

Some of them are a bit flawed (which I'll admit) while others make a bit more sense.
Have a go.

Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2023, 03:10:22 AM »

They do if they're allowed to take their place among the layers and are not trapped within denser molecules.

Unfortunately.  The atmosphere is a uniform mixture of gasses with different molecular weights.


Maybe understand why room temperature is what it is.

Which in no why answers how den pressure models why water with lighter molecular is a liquid before the heavier molecular weights of N2 and O2


Because there are so many variations of molecular breakdown.
What you're offering is not helping you.


Meaningless word salad..


Quote

Under standard conditions, water is primarily a liquid, unlike other analogous hydrides of the oxygen family, which are generally gaseous. This unique property of water is due to hydrogen bonding. The molecules of water are constantly moving concerning each other, and the hydrogen bonds are continually breaking and reforming at timescales faster than 200 femtoseconds (2 × 10−13 seconds).[26] However, these bonds are strong enough to create many of the peculiar properties of water, some of which make it integral to life.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_water

Breakdown would mean something actually broken.

Water is liquid at room temperature because of hydrogen bonds. 

Hydrogen bonds give water its unique properties.

Quote
Its hydrogen bonding causes its many unique properties, such as having a solid form less dense than its liquid form, a relatively high boiling point of 100 °C for its molar mass, and a high heat capacity.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_water



Not sure what you mean by lighter in oceans against N2 and O2.
Make it a bit clearer.


I made it perfectly clean.

But I’ll simplify it.

Quote
What is the Molecular Weight of Air

We get 28.96 g/mol. Therefore 28.96 g/mol is the molecular weight of Air.

https://unacademy.com/content/question-answer/chemistry/what-is-the-molecular-weight-of-air/#:~:text=Air%20is%20a%20mixture%20of%20several%20gasses%20where%20the%20two,carbon%20dioxide%20of%20about%200.03%25.&text=We%20get%2028.96%20g%2Fmol,the%20molecular%20weight%20of%20Air.

The average molecular weight of air is 28.96 g/mol. ( since den pressure falls to separate out O2, N2, argon, CO2 even in a trapped spaces because of the different molecules bouncing around with free space between them.)

So.  28.96 g/mol air is holding down water with a molecule weight of 18 g/mol?


Quote
When we talk about the thermodynamics of mixing, we have a very particular process in mind. By convention, the process of mixing two gases, call them A
A
 and B
B
, is the process in which the two gases initially occupy separate containers, but are both at a common pressure and temperature. (We denote the common initial pressure by “P0
P
0
”. P0
P
0
 is not to be confused with the constant Po
P
o
.) The final state after the mixing process is one in which there is a homogeneous mixture of A
A
 and B
B
 at the same temperature as characterized the initial state.

https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Physical_and_Theoretical_Chemistry_Textbook_Maps/Thermodynamics_and_Chemical_Equilibrium_(Ellgen)/13%3A_Equilibria_in_Reactions_of_Ideal_Gases/13.03%3A_The_Thermodynamics_of_Mixing_Ideal_Gases


What mechanism in den pressure allows the homogeneous mixture of gases with different molecular weights like O2, N2, argon, and CO2?

I can buy mixtures of bottled argon and CO2 for welding. The mixtures stay homogeneous.  I don’t have to “shake” the bottle because of “settling” before use.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2023, 08:17:41 AM »

They do if they're allowed to take their place among the layers and are not trapped within denser molecules.

Unfortunately.  The atmosphere is a uniform mixture of gasses with different molecular weights.
It's never uniform.


Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Breakdown would mean something actually broken.
It's entirely up to you how you want to view it.


Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Water is liquid at room temperature because of hydrogen bonds. 
What is room temperature?
Forget degrees, I'm asking you what is the reason for room temperature.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
I can buy mixtures of bottled argon and CO2 for welding. The mixtures stay homogeneous.  I don’t have to “shake” the bottle because of “settling” before use.
No because your molecules have been broken down into their layering which I've tried to explain so many times.

Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2023, 08:42:55 AM »
It's never uniform.

It’s pretty uniform.  With you having no proof atmospheric gasses separates in something like a gas bottle.




Forget degrees, I'm asking you what is the reason for room temperature.

Which has what to do with water, hydrogen bonds, and why water is a liquid at room temperature.


No because your molecules have been broken down into their layering which I've tried to explain so many times.

That is meaningless.

A bottle of argon and CO2 used as a shielding gas in welding is a homogeneous mixer that hasn’t broken down into anything. 


Note.  Added.  This is why argon and co2 are used a as a shielding gas in welding.  They don’t “breakdown”.  It stays a homogeneous mixer of argon gas and CO2 molecules that will not interact with the welding process and displaces oxygen from the weld. 
« Last Edit: May 11, 2023, 08:50:43 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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sceptimatic

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Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2023, 10:44:41 AM »
It's never uniform.

It’s pretty uniform.  With you having no proof atmospheric gasses separates in something like a gas bottle.
What does that mean? Pretty uniform?


Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Forget degrees, I'm asking you what is the reason for room temperature.

Which has what to do with water, hydrogen bonds, and why water is a liquid at room temperature.
So you can't answer. No problem.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
No because your molecules have been broken down into their layering which I've tried to explain so many times.

That is meaningless.

A bottle of argon and CO2 used as a shielding gas in welding is a homogeneous mixer that hasn’t broken down into anything. 
Note.  Added.  This is why argon and co2 are used a as a shielding gas in welding.  They don’t “breakdown”.
They're already broken down.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
It stays a homogeneous mixer of argon gas and CO2 molecules that will not interact with the welding process and displaces oxygen from the weld.
You're offering nothing that means anything.

Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2023, 11:40:21 AM »

 What does that mean? Pretty uniform?


Normal oxygen levels ant sea level  are 20.9 percent throughout the world. 

Can you show any inconsistencies..



Forget degrees, I'm asking you what is the reason for room temperature.

Again…

(In den pressure where there are no nuclear forces, no gravity, and work can be done without displacing anything, wonder what the madeup replacement for hydrogen bonds will be?)


Two:  why is water being lighter per molecule liquid at room temp while heavier molecules like diatomic nitrogen and diatomic oxygen are gasses at room temp.

Quote

Under standard conditions, water is primarily a liquid, unlike other analogous hydrides of the oxygen family, which are generally gaseous. This unique property of water is due to hydrogen bonding. The molecules of water are constantly moving concerning each other, and the hydrogen bonds are continually breaking and reforming at timescales faster than 200 femtoseconds (2 × 10−13 seconds).[26] However, these bonds are strong enough to create many of the peculiar properties of water, some of which make it integral to life.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_water

Breakdown would mean something actually broken.

Water is liquid at room temperature because of hydrogen bonds. 

Hydrogen bonds give water its unique properties.

Quote
Its hydrogen bonding causes its many unique properties, such as having a solid form less dense than its liquid form, a relatively high boiling point of 100 °C for its molar mass, and a high heat capacity.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Properties_of_water





They're already broken down.


Air compressors do not breakdown molecules.  They draw in atmospheric gases on a down stroke of the compressor piston with an intake valve, then the suction valve shuts, the discharge valve to the pressure tank opens, and the air compressor piston pushes the gas molecules into the pressure tank.

The molecules don’t change size and don’t breakdown.  They are just moved from the atmosphere and shoved into a tank.  As more molecules are forced in a fixed space, the pressure increases.



You're offering nothing that means anything.

You mean offering reality of real processes that you can’t model with den pressure. 

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JackBlack

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Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2023, 03:04:13 PM »
What is room temperature?
Forget degrees, I'm asking you what is the reason for room temperature.
Depends on the room.
A lot comes from radiative heat transfer from the nuclear fusion reactor called the sun.
Some also comes less directly in the form of heaters.

This in no way explains why water should be a liquid while oxygen, hydrogen and nitrogen are all gases.

But then again, in your fantasy, everything should be a gas.

Did you want us to appeal to the random motion and energy of different atoms at various temperatures, and how that allows them to overcome the ATTRACTIVE interactions between them and separate such that there is free space between the molecules?
And how different molecules have different attractive forces requiring different energies to overcome; with simple diatomic gases like H2, N2 and O2, and monoatomic gases like Ar, and even some larger molecules like CO2, have quite weak attractive forces, so it is quite easy for them to separate. Conversely, some molecules, like H2O have quite strong interactions, which results in a lot more energy being required to overcome these attractive forces and have the molecules separate.

Again, notice how mainstream science explains it quite well, while your nonsense can't explain it at all? Instead all you can do is deflect and ask silly questions which don't explain anything?

Just to outline the big issue:
There are a variety of different molecules.
For example, we have O2, N2, H2 and H2O (and there are plenty more).
If we compare them in the gaseous state, we see that H2 is the least dense, follower by H2O, then N2 then O2.
Yet if we consider them at room temperature, we see that H2O is a liquid, while the others are gases. We can also look at the boiling point at atmospheric pressure and see that nitrogen is -196 C, oxygen is -183 C, water is ~100 C, and hydrogen is -253 C.
The question is why?
And there are 2 parts to this. One is why can they be liquids (or different phases) at all? Why aren't they just gases?
Why isn't their boiling point connected to their density? Specifically, why does H2O, in the middle, boil the highest?
Why doesn't O2, the most massive of them, boil the highest?
Or why is the order of mass H2, H2O, O2, N2; while the order of boiling points is H2, N2, O2, H2O?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
I can buy mixtures of bottled argon and CO2 for welding. The mixtures stay homogeneous.  I don’t have to “shake” the bottle because of “settling” before use.
No because your molecules have been broken down into their layering which I've tried to explain so many times.
Rejecting reality will not help you.

Gasses are very well mixed. You need a very large density difference, or a very large elevation difference to have them separate.
This is because the forces between them are negligible, unlike liquids, which are quite strongly interacting, with different interactions in different liquids causing a clearly defined separation.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2023, 10:40:58 PM »

 What does that mean? Pretty uniform?


Normal oxygen levels ant sea level  are 20.9 percent throughout the world. 

Can you show any inconsistencies..
I don't even know what you're getting at.


Quote from: DataOverFlow2022

Forget degrees, I'm asking you what is the reason for room temperature.

Again…

(In den pressure where there are no nuclear forces,
What is a nuclear force?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
no gravity, and work can be done without displacing anything, wonder what the madeup replacement for hydrogen bonds will be?)
Work can never be done without the displacement of a mass. It just can't happen.
You can have work done in a fantasy of space vacuums and whatnot but that's not playing in the real world.


Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Two:  why is water being lighter per molecule liquid at room temp while heavier molecules like diatomic nitrogen and diatomic oxygen are gasses at room temp.
Breakdown would mean something actually broken.

If you can't grasp what it's saying then that's your issue.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Water is liquid at room temperature because of hydrogen bonds. 
And?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Hydrogen bonds give water its unique properties.

All kinds of bonds give all kinds of matter their unique properties.


Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
They're already broken down.

Air compressors do not breakdown molecules.
They compress them.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
They draw in atmospheric gases on a down stroke of the compressor piston with an intake valve, then the suction valve shuts
There's no such thing as a suction valve.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
, the discharge valve to the pressure tank opens, and the air compressor piston pushes the gas molecules into the pressure tank.
And?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
The molecules don’t change size and don’t breakdown.
They get compressed and guess what compression does?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
They are just moved from the atmosphere and shoved into a tank.  As more molecules are forced in a fixed space, the pressure increases.

Yep and the molecules get crushed together more and more as extra molecules are forced in, making them smaller and more densely packed.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022

You're offering nothing that means anything.

You mean offering reality of real processes that you can’t model with den pressure.
It's all around us, I don't need to find it.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2023, 10:56:32 PM »
What is room temperature?
Forget degrees, I'm asking you what is the reason for room temperature.
Depends on the room.
So offering room temperature means nothing in an argument.

Quote from: JackBlack
A lot comes from radiative heat transfer from the nuclear fusion reactor called the sun.
What is nuclear fusion?

Quote from: JackBlack
Some also comes less directly in the form of heaters.
This in no way explains why water should be a liquid while oxygen, hydrogen and nitrogen are all gases.
Exactly.


Quote from: JackBlack
But then again, in your fantasy, everything should be a gas.
Not at all if you paid attention over time.

Quote from: JackBlack
Did you want us to appeal to the random motion and energy of different atoms at various temperatures, and how that allows them to overcome the ATTRACTIVE interactions between them and separate such that there is free space between the molecules?
There is no free and never will be free space.

Quote from: JackBlack
Again, notice how mainstream science explains it quite well, while your nonsense can't explain it at all? Instead all you can do is deflect and ask silly questions which don't explain anything?
Of course.
A story can be told and sold and have meaning but it doesn't mean the story is entirely to the level of reality. It can be cloaked.
I'll offer a simple example of space and stars and planets and vacuums and so on and so on.
You see there's a story behind each one but it doesn't mean the story is entirely to the letter to those who simply believe the jargon have no real way of verifying any of it so they go with that flow.
It's called severe indoctrination/brainwashing.


Quote from: JackBlack
Just to outline the big issue:
There are a variety of different molecules.
Tell your brother data that.

Quote from: JackBlack
For example, we have O2, N2, H2 and H2O (and there are plenty more).
If we compare them in the gaseous state, we see that H2 is the least dense, follower by H2O, then N2 then O2.
Yet if we consider them at room temperature, we see that H2O is a liquid, while the others are gases. We can also look at the boiling point at atmospheric pressure and see that nitrogen is -196 C, oxygen is -183 C, water is ~100 C, and hydrogen is -253 C.
The question is why?
And there are 2 parts to this. One is why can they be liquids (or different phases) at all? Why aren't they just gases?
Why isn't their boiling point connected to their density? Specifically, why does H2O, in the middle, boil the highest?
Why doesn't O2, the most massive of them, boil the highest?
Or why is the order of mass H2, H2O, O2, N2; while the order of boiling points is H2, N2, O2, H2O?
The why is simple. It's a breakdown of molecules. A pell off and attachment of the peel off that changes the setup of whatever separated gases or liquids or solids come from it.

So many variations of it and we see it with our own eyes in terms of what we see on/in Earth but at the molecular level we are left with reasoning and experiments to break down and give reasons for that.




Quote from: JackBlack
Gasses are very well mixed. You need a very large density difference, or a very large elevation difference to have them separate.
Yep, it's called breaking down molecules. Go back to the gobstopper analogy and you might get where I'm coming from.

Quote from: JackBlack
This is because the forces between them are negligible, unlike liquids, which are quite strongly interacting, with different interactions in different liquids causing a clearly defined separation.
At the molecular level everything is pertinent and negligible does not come into it.

Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2023, 02:45:52 AM »
I don't even know what you're getting at.


It’s pretty obvious.

One.  You completely ignore gas laws and how fluid power works.

Two. You have no model in den pressure why water is liquid at room temperature.

Three.  In ignoring gas laws, you don’t have an explanation why trapped atmosphere in something like a building doesn’t separate out by molecule weights as outlined by your delusional den pressure. 


Four.  Water has a lighter molecule weight than most of the gasses in earths atmosphere.  In a no gravity delusion with only den pressure. Where you ignore things like nuclear forces and electromagnetic forces. How is the heavier molecules of the atmosphere above the lighter molecules of the water in the oceans? 

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sceptimatic

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Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2023, 03:12:47 AM »
I don't even know what you're getting at.


It’s pretty obvious.

One.  You completely ignore gas laws and how fluid power works.
I ignore any so-called laws that use fictional gravity to go alongside the stuff on offer.


Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Two. You have no model in den pressure why water is liquid at room temperature.
Water is liquid way below room temperature so what are you talking about?
And what room temperature is this?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Three.  In ignoring gas laws, you don’t have an explanation why trapped atmosphere in something like a building doesn’t separate out by molecule weights as outlined by your delusional den pressure.
Trapped atmosphere in a building?
How about you explain what you mean by this?
 

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Four.  Water has a lighter molecule weight than most of the gasses in earths atmosphere.
Have you weighed a water molecule?
Have you weighed most of the gases in the atmosphere?
If so can you tell me how you did this?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
In a no gravity delusion with only den pressure. Where you ignore things like nuclear forces and electromagnetic forces. How is the heavier molecules of the atmosphere above the lighter molecules of the water in the oceans?
They aren't.
You have absolutely no clue about denpressure. You're so fixated on copy-and-paste offerings you actually forget to even bother to understand what's been said.
It's massively clear to me that you overlook any explanation so don;t waste your time trying to argue against it.

Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2023, 04:21:38 AM »

 I ignore any so-called laws that use fictional gravity to go alongside the stuff on offer.


You ignore the basics of fluid power, the gas laws, and the fundamental forces of electromagnetic radiation and nuclear reactions.


That’s why you have a BS den pressure delusion that is useless in the real world from nuclear powered ships, conventional power plants, and you can’t even model a simple ball drop with the same accuracy of physics 101.


Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2023, 06:04:56 AM »
I don't even know what you're getting at.


It’s pretty obvious.

One.  You completely ignore gas laws and how fluid power works.
I ignore any so-called laws that use fictional gravity to go alongside the stuff on offer.


Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Two. You have no model in den pressure why water is liquid at room temperature.
Water is liquid way below room temperature so what are you talking about?
And what room temperature is this?


What is your den pressure explanation for why water is liquid at room temperature.


As for room temperature…

Quote
Standard cubic feet per minute (SCFM) is the molar flow rate of a gas expressed as a volumetric flow at a "standardized" temperature and pressure thus representing a fixed number of moles of gas regardless of composition and actual flow conditions. It is related to the mass flow rate of the gas by a multiplicative constant which depends only on the molecular weight of the gas. There are different standard conditions for temperature and pressure, so care is taken when choosing a particular standard value. Worldwide, the "standard" condition for pressure is variously defined as an absolute pressure of 101,325 pascals (Atmospheric pressure), 1.0 bar (i.e., 100,000 pascals), 14.73 psia, or 14.696 psia and the "standard" temperature is variously defined as 68 °F, 60 °F, 0 °C, 15 °C, 20 °C, or 25 °C. The relative humidity (e.g., 36% or 0%) is also included in some definitions of standard conditions.

In Europe, the standard temperature is most commonly defined as 0 °C, but not always. In the United States, the standard temperature is most commonly defined as 60 °F or 70 °F, but again, not always. A variation in standard temperature can result in a significant volumetric variation for the same mass flow rate. For example, a mass flow rate of 1,000 kg/h of air at 1 atmosphere of absolute pressure is 455 SCFM when defined at 32 °F (0 °C) but 481 SCFM when defined at 60 °F (16 °C).

In countries using the SI metric system of units, the term "normal cubic metre" (Nm3) is very often used to denote gas volumes at some normalized or standard condition. Again, as noted above, there is no universally accepted set of normalized or standard conditions.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_cubic_feet_per_minute

Let’s replace the term room temperature and use standard temperature and go with scf….

60°F



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sceptimatic

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Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2023, 08:42:17 AM »

 I ignore any so-called laws that use fictional gravity to go alongside the stuff on offer.


You ignore the basics of fluid power, the gas laws, and the fundamental forces of electromagnetic radiation and nuclear reactions.

I ignore the stuff that's fictional in the telling of how certain things work.
As I said before, if gravity has to be involved then the science is pseudo-science.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022

That’s why you have a BS den pressure delusion that is useless in the real world from nuclear powered ships, and conventional power plants, and you can’t even model a simple ball drop with the same accuracy of physics 101.
Because denpressure is real. Gravity is fiction and so is nuclear as far as I'm concerned.

Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2023, 09:40:51 AM »

 I ignore the stuff that's fictional in the telling of how certain things work.
As I said before, if gravity has to be involved then the science is pseudo-science.

Hmm..



As shown by experiments, it takes gravity to do this.



You're getting weaker by the second.

Then why do these liquids mix?

Liquids in near-Zero G



Weightless Water - Experiments In 'Zero Gravity'



What’s your expectation why the liquids mix?


Why do a feather and bowling ball drop at the same rate when air resistance is made negligible.

Why can gravity accurately model a dropped ball when den pressure can’t?

Why can gravity accurately model tides and make accurate predictions? 

Because denpressure is real. Gravity is fiction and so is nuclear as far as I'm concerned.

No.  Den pressure is your delusion that would get people killed if you tried to utilize it in the real world of  power plants.

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JackBlack

  • 21969
Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2023, 06:26:38 PM »
All kinds of bonds give all kinds of matter their unique properties.
You don't believe in bonds, because they involve attractive forces.

They get compressed and guess what compression does?
Forces molecules closer together, removing free space between them.

It's all around us, I don't need to find it.
What is all around us demonstrates you are wrong.

So offering room temperature means nothing in an argument.
You can use any temperature to make the argument.
So it does mean somthing.

What is nuclear fusion?
Entirely irrelevant to the topic.

Quote from: JackBlack
Some also comes less directly in the form of heaters.
This in no way explains why water should be a liquid while oxygen, hydrogen and nitrogen are all gases.
Exactly.
Which is the  point. You need attractive forces and free space to explain it.
Room temperature alone does not explain the different properties of these different molecules.

Not at all if you paid attention over time.
Explaining why your claims are pure BS does not mean I am not paying attention.
If anything it is the complete opposite and demonstrates that I am paying attention.

In your delusional fantasy molecules simply push against each other, filling all space.
There are no attractive forces to cause solids to hold their shape or fluids to keep together.
So everything should behave exactly like a gas.

There are no attractive forces holding together water molecules, so they should be free to expand just like molecules of oxygen and hydrogen. So it should be a gas, not a liquid.

As I have explained to you repeatedly, the big difference between liquids and gases is that the liquids are held together by attractive forces, resulting in minimal free space, and a fairly fixed volume for a given temperature. Conversely, gases have no significant interactions between the molecules as they are separated by large amounts of free space so they can expand to fill the volume of the container.

A story can be told and sold and have meaning but it doesn't mean the story is entirely to the level of reality. It can be cloaked.
The big question about if the story matches reality is if it can explain what is observed, being capable of making predictions and those predictions being correct.
What you dismiss as a story does that quite well.

The garbage you try to sell others fails entirely.

Notice how you STILL don't even attempt to provide an explanation, nor can you show any actual fault with the explanation from mainstream science, instead you just assert there is no free space and dismiss the explanation as a story.

Once again, we have mainstream science which explains it quite well, vs your delusional BS which can't explain it at all.
It is abundantly clear which is just a story to try to sell a lie, vs which is likely to be reality.

The why is simple. It's a breakdown of molecules. A pell off and attachment of the peel off that changes the setup of whatever separated gases or liquids or solids come from it.
This explains NOTHING!
According to you, the density relates to how broken down it is. That means H2 is more broken down than H2O, which is more broken down than N2 which is more broken down than O2.
How does any of that explain why H2O is a liquid while the others are a gas?
Once more, you don't even attempt an explanation.

So many variations of it and we see it with our own eyes in terms of what we see on/in Earth but at the molecular level we are left with reasoning and experiments to break down and give reasons for that.
And that reasoning and experiments leads us directly to attractive forces and free space.
No one has been able to provide an alternative explanation.


At the molecular level everything is pertinent and negligible does not come into it.
Repeating the same dishonest, delusional BS will not make it true.
In reality, plenty of things can be negligible.

I ignore the stuff that's fictional in the telling of how certain things work.
As I said before, if gravity has to be involved then the science is pseudo-science.
Pure BS.
You ignore stuff that is real that contradicts your delusional fantasy, and cling to fictional garbage.

Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2023, 11:34:13 PM »

 I ignore any so-called laws that use fictional gravity to go alongside the stuff on offer.


You ignore the basics of fluid power, the gas laws, and the fundamental forces of electromagnetic radiation and nuclear reactions.

I ignore the stuff that's fictional in the telling of how certain things work.
As I said before, if gravity has to be involved then the science is pseudo-science.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022

That’s why you have a BS den pressure delusion that is useless in the real world from nuclear powered ships, and conventional power plants, and you can’t even model a simple ball drop with the same accuracy of physics 101.
Because denpressure is real. Gravity is fiction and so is nuclear as far as I'm concerned.

Lol! Anything else you want to throw in the fiction basket, while you're at it, Sceptimatic? Is radiation fiction? I know already you will say covid-19 is fiction. Well, at least you can be sure you're skiddied undies are real.   

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2023, 03:44:37 AM »

 I ignore any so-called laws that use fictional gravity to go alongside the stuff on offer.


You ignore the basics of fluid power, the gas laws, and the fundamental forces of electromagnetic radiation and nuclear reactions.
I just ignore the silliness of gravity and such that go with some of them and nuclear reactions in terms of uranium metals are simply gunk.
Reactions can be real because we see them every day but they are not 20 years fissioning on a few kilos of metal. We are so easily duped into anything.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
That’s why you have a BS den pressure delusion that is useless in the real world from nuclear powered ships,
Of course it's useless with nuclear-powered ships. It's because they only exist in a fantasy world.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
conventional power plants, and you can’t even model a simple ball drop with the same accuracy of physics 101.
No issue with conventional power plants when gravity is taken out of the setup.


You can't model a ball drop with absolute accuracy, so don't pretend.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2023, 03:50:11 AM »


 You completely ignore gas laws and how fluid power works.
I ignore any so-called laws that use fictional gravity to go alongside the stuff on offer.


Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Let’s replace the term room temperature and use standard temperature and go with scf….

60°F
Water is liquid because it's under a lot of vibration /friction and frequencies.
Basically, as long as there's enough pressure and energy (agitation) of molecules then your water stays a liquid.
Increase it and it becomes a steam/gas.
Slow the molecular vibration down and it becomes a porous solid.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2023, 03:53:52 AM »
All kinds of bonds give all kinds of matter their unique properties.
You don't believe in bonds, because they involve attractive forces.
Bonds are fine because they don't involve attractive/pulling forces because they don't exist.
It's all expansion to force compression. It's all push and resistance to push. That's basically it.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2023, 03:57:23 AM »
Is radiation fiction?
Not at all.


Quote from: Smoke Machine

 I know already you will say covid-19 is fiction.
I'm not interested.

Quote from: Smoke Machine

 Well, at least you can be sure you're skiddied undies are real.
I honestly thought you were older. It just goes to show.

Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2023, 05:18:44 AM »
such that go with some of them and nuclear reactions in terms of uranium metals are simply gunk.


Dude. Worked with a navy reactor on a submarine. 

To refuel the reactor, holes had to be cut in the hull.  It requires the submarine to be in dry dock for over a year. 

The reactor has enough fuel to power the ship for world missions year after year for about twenty years.

Atmosphere free nuclear reactions and core life of highly enriched uranium of naval reactors is very real.  And to not understand that is blind faith in delusion.

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JackBlack

  • 21969
Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2023, 05:28:03 AM »
I just ignore the silliness of gravity and such that go with some of them
No, you don't. You ignore reality that demonstrates your delusional BS is wrong.

Water is liquid because it's under a lot of vibration /friction and frequencies.
Basically, as long as there's enough pressure and energy (agitation) of molecules then your water stays a liquid.
Increase it and it becomes a steam/gas.
Slow the molecular vibration down and it becomes a porous solid.
Why only water?
Why not all the other molecules?
Why not hydrogen? Why not oxygen?

At any given temperature they are all under the same vibrations/friction/frequencies/agitation.
So why are some liquid and some gas?

Bonds are fine because they don't involve attractive/pulling forces because they don't exist.
Bonds DO involve attractive forces.
You need such attractive forces to bond things together. Otherwise they are just pushed together.
So in your fantasy, bonds don't exist.

Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2023, 05:40:22 AM »
Bonds are fine because they don't involve attractive/pulling forces because they don't exist.
It's all expansion to force compression. It's all push and resistance to push. That's basically it.



Hmmm…

Quote
Detailed Description
Cohesion: Hydrogen Bonds Make Water Sticky
Water has an amazing ability to adhere (stick) to itself and to other substances. The property of cohesion describes the ability of water molecules to be attracted to other water molecules, which allows water to be a "sticky" liquid.
Hydrogen bonds are attractions of electrostatic force caused by the difference in charge between slightly positive hydrogen ions and other, slightly negative ions. In the case of water, hydrogen bonds form between neighboring hydrogen and oxygen atoms of adjacent water molecules. The attraction between individual water molecules creates a bond known as a hydrogen bond.

https://www.usgs.gov/media/images/strong-polar-bond-between-water-molecules-creates-water-cohesion#:~:text=In%20the%20case%20of%20water,known%20as%20a%20hydrogen%20bond.


Water stuck on a window?  Not running down?

Water stuck to the ceiling not dripping?

Water can stick to windows and overhangs and not fall because of “Hydrogen bonds are attractions of electrostatic force”.


Let’s take a water drop on a ceiling.  The hydrogen bond that makes water “sticky” allows it to hold on and not drip. The forces of cohesion and adhesion with the water drop and the ceiling is greater than the force of gravity on the water droplet.

  If the water drop continues to accumulate mass through say condensation, gravity
will finally have enough force to overcome the water droplet’s cohesion and adhesion with the ceiling, and the water drop will fall.

So.  In den pressure.  How can a water droplet stick to the underside of a ceiling.  Then when the water droplet is massive enough, what in den pressure overcomes the forces of cohesion and adhesion with the water droplet and ceiling to make it fall?  There is no atmosphere between the water droplet and ceiling.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2023, 05:44:10 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30061
Re: Help with den pressure part two, molecular weight H2O vs N2 and O2
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2023, 11:32:10 PM »
such that go with some of them and nuclear reactions in terms of uranium metals are simply gunk.


Dude. Worked with a navy reactor on a submarine. 
I don't know whether you were on a sub or a ship or even in the Navy. I have your word only.
I also only have your word that you dealt exclusively with a supposed nuclear reactor on a sub.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
To refuel the reactor, holes had to be cut in the hull.  It requires the submarine to be in dry dock for over a year.
Yes, I can read up on this stuff too.
 
Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
The reactor has enough fuel to power the ship for world missions year after year for about twenty years.
Yep so it says.
Men also landed on the moon we were told.
Mickey mouse is also a real mouse to kids and even some adults.
Santa is real to many.
And so on and so on.

The nuclear story is a good one tainted with scare tactics.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
Atmosphere free nuclear reactions and core life of highly enriched uranium of naval reactors is very real.
Anything can be real in the storybooks and to the untrained eye.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
  And to not understand that is blind faith in delusion.
Or maybe it's not accepting blind faith.