Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?

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sceptimatic

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2023, 08:20:07 AM »
Compressive force due to the amount of molecular layer of different densities above.


Hmmmm

Quote

Osmosis and Diffusion


Diffusion in liquids and gases
The molecules that make up gases move more quickly than the molecules in liquids, and so the diffusion that takes place in liquids is slightly slower. But, the process is the same. Molecules randomly move from an area where they are most concentrated, to areas of lesser concentration. This is what is meant by the term concentration gradient - since molecules move from an area of high, to an area of low concentration, they are said to move down a concentration gradient.

https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/nmp/sonet/rlos/science/osmosis/page2.html


The reason den-pressure is FUCKING useless, it totally ignores how natural phenomena actually act.
It doesn't ignore reality in my honest opinion/.
Obviously, it ignores gravity and in doing so it totally disrupts your thinking on my thoughts, which is fine and I have no issue with it.
Getting angry won't offer you any better argument.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2023, 08:23:22 AM »
In other words.  In your zero gravity earth delusion, there can be no “compression” until the gas pressure is equalized up into the less dense and less pressured atmosphere.
There's always compression at all times.
If something resists another it has to do so by compression as a reaction to the action and vice versa.
There's a reason why I always use push on push or p[ush on resistance to push, each way.
It's the same thing and it comes down to compression which is also the same thing. And also expansion which is also the same thing that simply starts the whole shebang off.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #32 on: April 27, 2023, 08:27:37 AM »
I’ve done engineering work including gas systems and high vacuum chambers, thanks.  The equations we use, based on regular science work.  But my own efforts are utterly insignificant as their are literally millions of other people successfully using this stuff.
You on the on hand tell people that all this is wrong and that you have a better answer, yet you have apparently done absolutely nothing to test your ideas.  They exist entirely in your head.
I have no issue with people successfully using evacuation chambers.
I'm not arguing about that.
I'm simply saying you can never evacuate everything from one and you certainly cannot suck out any atmosphere from one.

Quote from: Unconvinced
Quote
Quote from: Unconvinced

  Here's one you could do- if things fall because of "atmospheric stacking", what happens when you remove the air from a chamber?  Do objects fall faster or slower in high vacuum?  Should be slower, right?
First of all evacuating atmosphere from a container still leaves a pressure in that container that will create a pushback onto any dense mass within and displace that atmosphere.
Also, you need to elevate a dense mass inside the container and then release it.

And, the dense mass itself only requires enough compressive force to overcome what is below along with its own dense mass displacement and then the lower pressure atmosphere above is also a lower pressure atmosphere below which means much less resistance, which means a bigger acceleration back to the foundation.

So faster?  Really?
Yes, really.

Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #33 on: April 27, 2023, 09:43:02 AM »

Obviously, it ignores gravity

Does it?

Or do you not understand the difference of a gas in a gas bottle vs gas in an open atmosphere with no container.

Did you answer..


All the layered molecules in the stacking system above which the lower molecules must resist both ways. Use a foundation to resist the above and so on and so on all the way up into less and less pressure based on fewer layers to resist as the stack rises.



Still a word salad that doesn’t explain how a less dense / less pressured atmosphere keeps pressure bottled up at sea level and magical keeps the high pressure equalizing up into the areas of less pressure.


It can never equalise.

Sorry.  It happens with pressure all the time in gas bottles. As defined by gas laws.  Which is what your domed flat earth should at like.
It can never equalise.
the reason why we exist and everything else does is basically because everything does not equalise. It can come close but close is not equalisation.

With your statement being a lie.


Quote
Ideal Gas Law: Total Pressure of Two Flasks



In your zero gravity earth delusion, a less pressure gas can act like a barrier, and stop the more pressured gas from equalizing between two gas bottles connected by a tube?

Your delusion is stupid.

And not reflected in Hooke’s Law, Gas laws, Bernoulli's principle, Newton physics, principles of hydraulics.  All which create useable and accurate modeling and engineering that your den-pressure can’t even approach.

There's always compression at all times.

There is kinetic motion of gases as long as there are at temps to be a gas. 

At absolute zero, there is no kinetic motion from temperature.

The amount of pressure is determined by gas being held in check, the easiest to imagine is a gas bottle.


What would the pressure be if one cubic meter of oxygen at room temperature was released into a pressure vessel the size of a football arena at a vacuum and at absolute zero.

Funny you ignored


First of all evacuating atmosphere from a container still leaves a pressure in that container that will create a pushback onto any dense mass within and displace that atmosphere.


Huh.

Funny.

This is how a Bourdon Tube Pressure Gauge works

Quote
Bourdon Tube Pressure Gauge Working Principle Animation

https://instrumentationtools.com/bourdon-tube-pressure-gauge-working-principle-animation/amp/

It is basically consisted of a C-shaped hollow tube, whose one end is fixed and connected to the pressure tapping, the other end free, as shown in fig. The cross section of the tube is elliptical.




When pressure is applied, the elliptical tube (Bourdon tube) tries to acquire a circular cross section; as a result, stress is developed and the tube tries to straighten up. Thus the free end of the tube moves up, depending on magnitude of pressure. A deflecting and indicating mechanism is attached to the free end that rotates the pointer and indicates the Pressure reading. The materials used are commonly Phosphor Bronze, Brass and Beryllium Copper.



So.  Let get this straight.   As the number of gas molecules are removed from a chamber equipped with a Bourdon Tube Pressure Gauge, the ability for the atmosphere to physically extend the Bourdon Tube is diminished.  The c shape of the tube physically contracts.

But in your den-pressure delusion where less atmospheric pressure in a container makes a Bourdon Tube “contact” and deflect the gauge to show less pressure.  Somehow will magically make things read the same weight, and have no change in weight in relationship to pressure changes.  But the same pressure change has less force to deform the Bourdon Tube, changes the shape of the Bourdon Tube so it can indicate the pressure change.


Den-pressure is bullshit. 


Note. Added.  And you can take the whole system and refrigerate it to temps approaching absolute zero to turn all gases to liquids….


And your list of contradictions by the way.

I said as my proof,

You mean like measuring a value for gravity that results in accurate modeling using gravity.  That is used successfully in engineering and physics.

While…..

You can’t provide an experiment that proves den-pressure.

You can’t explain how den-pressure works with Hooke’s laws to make less dense material like a foam block make a more dense steel spring stretch down in a vertical spring scale.  And how less dense atmosphere can make the spring go down using a foam block into more dense atmosphere.  Why less dense atmosphere would push anything down in to more dense a restrictive atmosphere.

You can’t explain in the outlines of gas laws why in a zero gravity earth delusion why there is more pressure at sea level, and why this greater pressure doesn’t equalize into less pressure at altitude.

From vacuum chambers to pressurized chambers, you can’t show that changes in pressure drives the weight of an object, and that changes in pressure drive the rates objects fall. You have failed to show a correlation between changes in pressure, weight,  and acceleration of falling objects.


You have failed in a world of airlocks how density can make things / force things to fall sideways.

In a world where the changes in sea water density for whole hundreds of feet of depth are negligible, you have failed to explain the lack of density layering in the ocean. (Especially there being great increases in pressure with essential no changes in density) And failed to explain why there is no predictable modeling derived from your nonsense about the atmosphere that predicts the pressure increases in ocean’s water column.

You failed to explain what happens to weight at absolute zero where “vibrations” stop.

You can’t even use you den-pressure in any useful way.  Your model can’t even approach the accuracy achieved in entry level physics for a simple ball drop.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2023, 09:52:15 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #34 on: April 27, 2023, 09:49:49 AM »
Hours of useless ranting, and poor sceptimatic can’t take the time to post one post with an experiment to prove the delusion of den-pressure.

That is not the actions of someone with a useful model.

Endless posting of word salads, moving goalposts, changing topics, ignoring context and what was actually posted, ignoring questions, ignoring how den-pressure contradicts itself, using lies instead of proven science are actions of a troll.  Or a con.


Can you please show how den-pressure can accurately model a simple ball drop with any degree of accuracy obtained in entry level physics with gravity? 

Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #35 on: April 27, 2023, 09:57:48 AM »

I have no issue with people successfully using evacuation chambers.


So.  Why in a vacuum chamber at vacuum, why would a feather and a solid ball with greater density fall at the same rate?  With no apparent change in acceleration towards the earth.

Quote
Brian Cox visits the world's biggest vacuum | Human Universe - BBC






When the amount of gas in a chamber will physical affect how much a Bourdon Tube in a pressure gauge will deform.


How can there be a proportional change in how much a Bourdon Tube will change with pressure?  But in the den-pressure delusion there is no correlation with weight change vs pressure change. 

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sceptimatic

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #36 on: April 27, 2023, 10:00:16 AM »
What would the pressure be if one cubic meter of oxygen at room temperature was released into a pressure vessel the size of a football arena with a vacuum and at absolute zero.


This is how a Bourdon Tube Pressure Gauge works

Quote
Bourdon Tube Pressure Gauge Working Principle Animation

https://instrumentationtools.com/bourdon-tube-pressure-gauge-working-principle-animation/amp/

It is basically consisted of a C-shaped hollow tube, whose one end is fixed and connected to the pressure tapping, the other end free, as shown in fig. The cross section of the tube is elliptical.




When pressure is applied, the elliptical tube (Bourdon tube) tries to acquire a circular cross section; as a result, stress is developed and the tube tries to straighten up. Thus the free end of the tube moves up, depending on magnitude of pressure. A deflecting and indicating mechanism is attached to the free end that rotates the pointer and indicates the Pressure reading. The materials used are commonly Phosphor Bronze, Brass and Beryllium Copper.
I'm not even sure what it is you're trying to offer here.
Do you actually know?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022

So.  Let get this straight.   As the number of gas molecules are removed from a chamber equipped with a Bourdon Tube Pressure Gauge, the ability for the atmosphere to physically extend the Bourdon Tube is diminished.  The c shape of the tube physically contracts.

I'm still not sure what you're getting at.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022

But in your den-pressure delusion where less atmospheric pressure in a container makes a Bourdon Tube “contact” and deflect the gauge to show less pressure.  Somehow will magically make things read the same weight, and have no change in weight in relationship to pressure changes.  But the same pressure change has less force to deform the Bourdon Tube, changes the shape of the Bourdon Tube so it can indicate the pressure change.
How are you reading weight by pressure gauge?



Quote from: DataOverFlow2022

Den-pressure is bullshit. 

Denpressure is alive and kicking. Gravity is bull.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022

Note. Added.  And you can take the whole system and refrigerate it to temps approaching absolute zero to turn all gases to liquids….

Explain what's happening.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30075
Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #37 on: April 27, 2023, 10:01:41 AM »
Hours of useless ranting, and poor sceptimatic can’t take the time to post one post with an experiment to prove the delusion of den-pressure.

That is not the actions of someone with a useful model.

Endless posting of word salads, moving goalposts, changing topics, ignoring context and what was actually posted, ignoring questions, ignoring how den-pressure contradicts itself, using lies instead of proven science are actions of a troll.  Or a con.


Can you please show how den-pressure can accurately model a simple ball drop with any degree of accuracy obtained in entry level physics with gravity?
I'm waiting for you to offer simple explanations but you keep throwing things up and not explaining what's happening.
My advice to you is to calm down a little bit and get on track.

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sceptimatic

  • Flat Earth Scientist
  • 30075
Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2023, 10:04:37 AM »



Brian Cox visits the world's biggest vacuum | Human Universe - BBC




They don't. The video is a load of garbage and doctored.
There's no way that's a big so-called vacuum chamber. It's just complete and utter silliness.


« Last Edit: April 27, 2023, 10:06:15 AM by sceptimatic »

Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #39 on: April 27, 2023, 10:13:25 AM »



Brian Cox visits the world's biggest vacuum | Human Universe - BBC




They don't. The video is a load of garbage and doctored.
There's no way that's a big so-called vacuum chamber. It's just complete and utter silliness.


So.  You too are down to blatant falsehoods and lies. 


Added links





« Last Edit: April 27, 2023, 10:19:01 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2023, 10:24:53 AM »
I'm waiting for you to offer simple explanations but you keep throwing things up and not explaining what's happening.
My advice to you is to calm down a little bit and get on track.

You concerns have been addressed by numerous people in numerous ways with the addition of cited sources.

You’re the one that keeps changing the subject, using lies, have done nothing to provide any actual evidence.  And can’t state an experiment that would prove den-pressure while a simple Bourdon Tube shows changes in pressure and vacuum should cause predictable and measurable changes.


Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2023, 11:32:40 AM »


Brian Cox visits the world's biggest vacuum | Human Universe - BBC




They don't. The video is a load of garbage and doctored.
There's no way that's a big so-called vacuum chamber. It's just complete and utter silliness.

Wow.  So you want to be taken serious.  You claim you are “scientific”.  Maybe you claimed to be open minded?   But a video documenting something easily researched.  Something many on a smaller scale have seen and participated in for themselves.  Because it doesn’t fit your world view.  Because it’s something that isn’t modeled/predicted by den-pressure.  You go right to, “They don't. The video is a load of garbage and doctored.
There's no way that's a big so-called vacuum chamber. It's just complete and utter silliness.”

I would label you hypocrite.  But it’s worse than that.  Many have considered the “science” of your delusion.  Have combated that delusion with real science, real world science examples, and cited sources.

After you claimed you are “scientific.”  Some evidence that contradicts you.  You just go.  ““They don't. The video is a load of garbage and doctored.”

And it’s sad.  You’re going to post like you still have credibility.  You have no credibility.  And it’s all on you.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2023, 12:01:58 PM by DataOverFlow2022 »

Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2023, 01:02:47 PM »
I’ve done engineering work including gas systems and high vacuum chambers, thanks.  The equations we use, based on regular science work.  But my own efforts are utterly insignificant as their are literally millions of other people successfully using this stuff.
You on the on hand tell people that all this is wrong and that you have a better answer, yet you have apparently done absolutely nothing to test your ideas.  They exist entirely in your head.
I have no issue with people successfully using evacuation chambers.
I'm not arguing about that.
I'm simply saying you can never evacuate everything from one and you certainly cannot suck out any atmosphere from one.

Yet apparently not only does gravity not exist, but our entire understanding of how gas pressure  works is fundamentally wrong too.

Its “no issue” for you to call the millions of people who do real work using laws of physics you arbitrarily reject “indoctrinated”.

Quote
Quote from: Unconvinced
Quote
Quote from: Unconvinced

  Here's one you could do- if things fall because of "atmospheric stacking", what happens when you remove the air from a chamber?  Do objects fall faster or slower in high vacuum?  Should be slower, right?
First of all evacuating atmosphere from a container still leaves a pressure in that container that will create a pushback onto any dense mass within and displace that atmosphere.
Also, you need to elevate a dense mass inside the container and then release it.

And, the dense mass itself only requires enough compressive force to overcome what is below along with its own dense mass displacement and then the lower pressure atmosphere above is also a lower pressure atmosphere below which means much less resistance, which means a bigger acceleration back to the foundation.

So faster?  Really?
Yes, really.

According to you, gas pressure is the only thing pushing the object down, but if we reduce the pressure by say 99.99%, the object accelerates faster?  Less force equals more acceleration?

You could solve the world’s energy problems with such magic.  You should probably share it outside this forum.

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JackBlack

  • 23376
Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2023, 03:30:59 PM »
I said as my proof, to me.
No, you said you offer it as your proof of denpressure. That isn't offering it just to you.
To you, nothing is needed, as you happily accept denpressure without any rational thought or evidence backing it up.
But that doesn't make it a proof.

But, you are absolutely correct, it isn't a proof to you and is just an acceptance for me based on how I see the workings of it.
But this becomes the point.
You are right, that is the point. You just blindly accept denpressure with NOTHING to support it, and then come here and baselessly assert that this is magically proof of your nonsense.
In order for it to be proof, you need to explain how it produces the result.
Asserting you did does not mean you did.
You asserted vague claims which in no way explain the result.

Conversely, this directly provides proof for gravity as a very simple example of mass attracting mass.

There's no real explanation at all for gravity in what you're saying.
This is not provided as an explanation for gravity, a fundamental force of attraction between masses.
This is an explanation of how gravity predicts and explains the results of the experiment.

Why does mass attract mass and what does attraction actually mean in terms of how things come together from distance?
As explained elsewhere, mass attracting mass is a fundamental interaction. The closest we have gotten to an explanation is that mass curves spacetime and mass then follows that curved spacetime. Again, if you want to play this stupid game, you can do it for everything. What does collision/compression actually mean? Why can't 2 objects just pass straight through each other? How does one molecule stop another from colliding? (The difference is that those questions aren't actually fundamental and instead rely upon a more fundamental force which explains more than just why 2 molecules can't phase through each other).

But as for explaining how, I explained it for the rod rotating.
The mass on the rod experiences an attractive force towards the other mass. This is a force acting on it trying to move it in a particular direction.
But it is attached to the rod so it is not free to just move towards it. Instead this causes a torque in the rod, which acts to rotate the entire rod assembly.

Just what problem do you have with this explanation? That it uses gravity, that you hate? That it uses the word attraction which makes you jump to a pulling force, which you hate? That it doesn't need your delusional nonsense?

Atmospheric pressure fluctuations due to vibrational frequencies cause expansion and resultant compression of molecules.
You are just spouting a bunch of words which explain NOTHING.
Why does placing 1 mass in a particular location cause the atmosphere to magically fluctuate and vibrate to push another mass in a particular direction?
If I move the mass to a different location, how will this effect it? Will the fluctuations and vibrations still push the other mass in the same direction or a different direction?
Again, you are explaining NOTHING!

Of course it is. It's still an open question because there's no answer to it because it does not exist and is made up for the exact reasons to create fictional space stories as above and so on and to also keep a rotating globe alive in the minds of those who get indoctrinated into this stuff and by siding with majority go for the easy ride.
Pure garabge.
It is "made up" to explain countless observations. It is used to predict and explain reality. But like everything there is always a point where you simply don't know the answer to why or how.
As explained to you repeatedly, your delusional garbage works just as well with space and a round Earth and so on.
So if your delusional garbage as true and actually worked to explain what is observed, we would be able to use that instead of gravity and still have a round Earth.

It doesn't matter what I do. If you want to find stuff out then think and try stuff for yourself.
I have.
So far all experiments have clearly demonstrated the affect of the pressure of fluid is to push from a higher pressure to a low pressure.
They also act to remove pressure gradients.
Observations also show that there is a pressure gradient in fluids. This, especially along with above observations of how pressure works, means the fluids exert an upwards force on objects.

We can also see this in a centrifuge where pressure gradients are generated by spinning the system really quickly, and those pressure gradients separating out fluids.

This also means there needs to be some force OTHER THAN FROM THE AIR causing this pressure gradient, a downwards force based upon mass. (With the based upon mass based upon other similar observations).

So by thinking and trying stuff out ourselves, we can see your claims are pure garbage.

And, the dense mass itself only requires enough compressive force to overcome what is below
As has been explained repeatedly, the pressure below is greater than the pressure above, so the compressive force (from above) is NOT enough to overcome the resistance of what is below. You need something more than the air.

along with its own dense mass displacement and then the lower pressure atmosphere above is also a lower pressure atmosphere below which means much less resistance, which means a bigger acceleration back to the foundation.
Again, you are appealing to the mass of the object, as if that mass is what is causing it to go down, and the atmosphere is merely resisting that.

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JackBlack

  • 23376
Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2023, 03:56:01 PM »
It doesn't vent because it's at its limit of molecular breakdown and at that point, it freezes. It goes dormant.
It stacks.
It does not pressurise like in a gas bottle encased in metal.

Try and get your head around that and then it could help you understand.
We already know that the atmosphere has a pressure gradient, that it is at a greater pressure and density the lower it is.
So you telling us "it stacks" is entirely useless.

What you need to do is explain WHY.
Why does the high pressure air at the bottom stay high pressure air? Why doesn't it push upwards to equalise the stack?
Alternatively, if it can magically just come down to Earth and be at that pressure, why can't the layer above magically come down and sit on it and be at that equal high pressure?

This is what people are asking for, an explanation for what causes this "stacking", this observed pressure and density gradient.
And this is what you refuse to provide.

If you want to help people understand, you need to provide an explanation, not just a repeat of the observation we are asking you to explain.

Then put them in a jar and vibrate the jar and see the layers form into their respective densities and displacement of each other.
Again, this is stating an observation, an observation you have no explanation for, but which gravity explains trivially.
(Also, in this case, that doesn't actually happen unless they have a similar particle size).

It's simple stuff that many will overlook and use gravity as a reason for it, even in a jar.
Because gravity actually explains it.
Can you provide an explanation?
You put these things in a jar, and shake the jar, why does this cause the dense layer to go the bottom of the jar (and you can turn the jar around and still have it go down to the observer outside the jar)?
Why doesn't this happen in a vomit comet during a 0g parabola?

Again, you have no explanation. You are just repeating observations.

There is never a true terminal velocity.
There is a true terminal velocity, but even if there wasn't you are just dodging the issue.
If the air is pushing things down, why does it then resist pushing things down to slow it down?

This is another thing that makes perfect sense in the mainstream model, but no sense in your fantasy.

Nobody has a clue what the centre of the Earth is. It's all storytelling and guesswork.
But seeing as we're arguing points, then what is it at the centre of Earth that supposedly pulls everything towards it?
Your wilful ignorance doesn't mean everyone is wilfully ignorant. There are observations which can be made which don't requiring going to the centre to obtain information on what the centre is.

But we don't need to know what the centre of Earth is.
What is important for this discussion is mass. So the only relevant question would be what is the mass of Earth.
And notice here that it isn't magically just the centre pulling things towards it.
It is all mass is attracted to all mass.
And that includes the mass of the crust (i.e. the outer layer of Earth).
But the math for a spherically symmetric object can be simplified to treating it as a single point at the centre.

So even if below the crust was entirely hollow with NOTHING inside, we would still have the mass of the crust causing a force directed towards the centre of Earth.

Feel free to duck this or tell me you refuse to answer and I'll ask someone else. But remember, you really need to answer if you want to climb the higher podium in your mind.
The distinction is that you are asking questions to deflect from the topic.

All the layered molecules in the stacking system above which the lower molecules must resist both ways. Use a foundation to resist the above and so on and so on all the way up into less and less pressure based on fewer layers to resist as the stack rises.
All molecules at all points in the stack must resist both ways.
Consider the next layer up, it has the high pressure layer below trying to push it up and the lower pressure layers above trying to push it down.
The higher pressure below should overcome the lower pressure above and push it up.

So it doesn't just have to resist the above.
It needs to resist the force from above and the force from below.
If it can't resist the force from above it is pushed down.
If it can't resist the force from below it is pushed up.

So what is giving it that extra ability to resist the push up from below? We know it can't simply be the push down from the air above.

Until you actually address this issue, people will keep asking.

Compressive force due to the amount of molecular layer of different densities above.
And again, you implicitly appeal to gravity.
You are appealing to the force of gravity forcing the layers above down, which they layers below need to support.

If it is just the push from above forcing it down, then each layer just transfers that force down, there is no increase.

Give me a gas law and explain what's happening.
How about this one:
F=-A*DeltaP.

This is saying that the force on an object is equal to the cross sectional area multiplied by the difference in pressure, with a negative sign to indicate the direction of force is opposite the pressure gradient.

At its simplest level, it is saying that high pressure pushes towards low pressure. The net force is not based upon the absolute pressure, but the pressure difference. And as the area increases, the force increases.

e.g. if you have an object placed some where with a cross sectional area of 1 m^2, and on its left there is a pressure of 0.5 bar, and on its right there is a pressure of 2 bar, then there is a pressure gradient of 1.5 bar, being higher on the right, so there will be a force to the left equal to 1 m^2*1.5 bar = 150 kN

This also explains why planes fly, with the higher pressure below the wing pushing the plane upwards.

This also explains why the atmosphere in general pushes objects upwards, with the higher pressure below creating an upwards force.

If that was the case we would observe a quite substantial pressure gradient across the dome.
We do.
No, we don't.
The pressure at sea level is basically the same, regardless of location.

To a certain height, yes.
Which again means, we have the same molecules, yet they are at a different pressure. Why?

A push up will only happpen if energy is applied.
A push up happens with the energy from the high pressure air below compared to the low pressure air above.

If you think that isn't enough, then consider a helium filled balloon.
What is providing the energy for it to go up? Nothing other than the high pressure air below it.

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JackBlack

  • 23376
Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2023, 04:05:42 PM »
And yet I'm still waiting for you to simply explain how it works due to this gravity you stand by.
I would like you to simply explain it without copying and pasting something.

If you can't do this then you have no argument.
Pure BS.
Your first issue is that you are trying to have the air explain everything, when it clearly can't.
This causes you to incorrectly assume that whatever is trying to replace the air must be gravity. It isn't.
There are more forces than just gravity.

But why do you care if it is explained by themselves or if they copy and paste something.
You are basically saying that you will reject the truth if someone else said it first.
That is insanity.
It shouldn't matter if someone else has made a comprehensive explanation and it is copied.
What matters is if it actually explains it.
So no, people not meeting your pathetic demands doesn't mean there is no argument.

We also don't need to be able to fully explain it using gravity to show your claim is garbage.

A spring scale works based upon tensile forces due to electrostatic interactions between the atoms inside it.
There is a a combination of attractive and repulsive forces. This gives it an equilibrium position where the net force is 0.
If you move it from this position by stretching it, you have moved it away from equilibrium and this results in an attractive force trying to shorten the length. If you compress it then the repulsive forces increase and this results in a net force trying to repel the atoms and make it longer.

You have already been given the gravity based explanation for buoyancy and why this results in the measured weight of an object varying with fluid density.

Just what more do you need?

There's always compression at all times.
If something resists another it has to do so by compression as a reaction to the action and vice versa.
No, it doesn't.
It can also resist via tension, like a spring or a rope.

There's a reason why I always use push on push or p[ush on resistance to push, each way.
Because you hate reality, you hate how gravity destroys your fantasy, and gravity being attraction means you can claim it is a pulling force, so you hate pulling forces and want to pretend they can't exist so you pretend everything is push.

There certainly isn't any rational basis behind it.

There's no way that's a big so-called vacuum chamber. It's just complete and utter silliness.
Why? Because it destroys your fantasy?
Yet again, you just offer pathetic dismissal.

That is pretty much all you have. Pathetic dismissal, restating of observations, a vague collection of words which explains nothing, and blatant lies.

You have no explanation for how any of your delusional garbage works.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #46 on: April 28, 2023, 08:20:00 AM »



Brian Cox visits the world's biggest vacuum | Human Universe - BBC




They don't. The video is a load of garbage and doctored.
There's no way that's a big so-called vacuum chamber. It's just complete and utter silliness.


So.  You too are down to blatant falsehoods and lies.
Is it me or is it these people who are basically put out to muddy the waters?
I'd say It's not me, you say differently and you can think whatever you wish.

That so-called vacuum chamber is nothing of the sort.
If it was a reality they certainly wouldn't be dropping a bowling ball and feathers inside of it and then standing there open-mouthed as if they'd just discovered something.

It's a joke.





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sceptimatic

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #47 on: April 28, 2023, 08:25:22 AM »
You’re the one that keeps changing the subject, using lies, have done nothing to provide any actual evidence.  And can’t state an experiment that would prove den-pressure while a simple Bourdon Tube shows changes in pressure and vacuum should cause predictable and measurable changes.
I'm still not sure what it is you're trying to prove by using this tube.

It seems it shows denpressure and not gravity unless you're offering something else.
You seem very vague as if you're just plucking stuff from the internet and throwing it up and basically not saying anything.

Let's deal with it but I need to know what you're offering.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #48 on: April 28, 2023, 08:51:58 AM »
Wow.  So you want to be taken serious.
I'm absolutely not interested whether you take me seriously or not.
You ask questions and I give answers. You don't like or agree with my answers and that's fine with me.
I do likewise with you and it's also fine with me.
What it is to you is your issue, not mine.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022

  You claim you are “scientific”.
We're all scientific if we are looking to evaluate life and happenings within this home we call Earth.
It's all science because the Earth is the science and we who try to figure out the stuff about it are scientists.
It means we are looking to understand what we are all about in this home of Earth.

However, many have different views on many many things about it and it comes down to what is the truth of things pondered about this Earth.

When it all comes down to it there's so much we actually don't know the real truth of but there is also so much pretence of science that is and can be far from the truth and this is where we're at right now.

You get to argue for what you believe is a scientific truth based on adhering to mass indoctrination techniques and it gives you a sense of expert standing against someone who may have alternate views.

That's fine for you but it's of no interest to me or others who don't hold you in that regard.
And that goes for a lot.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022

Maybe you claimed to be open minded?
Are any of us open-minded?
If you close your mind off to just one thing can you claim you're 99% open-minded or are you 1% closed-minded which stumps the other 99%?

I'd say we're all a mix of open and closed-minded and it all comes down to all the circles we are part of at every part of life from just after the cradle to just before the grave and everything in between that is dictated for us and also how we apparently independently think on matters that we believe are not manipulations.

I hope this clears a few things up for you.
Use it as a reference if you feel the need to.



Quote from: DataOverFlow2022

   But a video documenting something easily researched.  Something many on a smaller scale have seen and participated in for themselves.  Because it doesn’t fit your world view.  Because it’s something that isn’t modeled/predicted by den-pressure.  You go right to, “They don't. The video is a load of garbage and doctored.
There's no way that's a big so-called vacuum chamber. It's just complete and utter silliness.”
Have you participated in this supposed big vacuum chamber and experiments inside of it?
If not then what is your reliance based on?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022

I would label you hypocrite.  But it’s worse than that.  Many have considered the “science” of your delusion.  Have combated that delusion with real science, real world science examples, and cited sources.
Many have combated with me but combat does not mean a war is won, it means the combat is an attempt to gain a stronghold over other opposing combatants.
The war is still going and nobody is winning it as of yet but you can certainly claim to if you feel it helps you. But don't be surprised if I wave it away as being irrelevant thought from you.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022

After you claimed you are “scientific.”  Some evidence that contradicts you.  You just go.  ““They don't. The video is a load of garbage and doctored.”
Nothing has contradicted me, unless you want to offer something.


Quote from: DataOverFlow2022

And it’s sad.  You’re going to post like you still have credibility.  You have no credibility.  And it’s all on you.
I'm on a forum having alternate thoughts and arguing my side.
I don't expect anything other than attempted ridicule by many, especially people like yourself.
So I'm under no illusions about having any credibility with people like yourself and I honestly do not care one iota.

However, I know some people are trying to take note for themselves and regardless of whether they agree to some of what I say or simply find it intriguing, can offer them a chance to at least add another string to their thought process against one that was battered into their heads from being a kid.

I just thought I'd make myself a big clearer for you.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #49 on: April 28, 2023, 09:03:42 AM »
Yet apparently not only does gravity not exist, but our entire understanding of how gas pressure  works is fundamentally wrong too.
It's only wrong when gravity is used.
Anything else is fine.

Quote from: Unconvinced
Its “no issue” for you to call the millions of people who do real work using laws of physics you arbitrarily reject “indoctrinated”.
Not at all. There are millions and millions of experiments with physics and many people do an exceptional job with the use of experimentation and gaining knowledge of the uses of gases, liquids and solids and so on and so on.
I have zero issues with people like that and in fact, I absolutely admire them.

Quote from: Unconvinced
According to you, gas pressure is the only thing pushing the object down, but if we reduce the pressure by say 99.99%, the object accelerates faster?  Less force equals more acceleration?
Not at all. Gas pressure can push an object up and can push objects along horizontally.
However, energy has to be applied.

It depends on the dense mass of an object as to what energy it takes to push it through and the already displaced area it is in and is massively dependent on overcoming the resistance of whatever foundation.

The major thing to get is atmospheric displacement by any dense mass, minus the natural volume within.

Quote from: Unconvinced
You could solve the world’s energy problems with such magic.  You should probably share it outside this forum.
There are no world energy problems.
The energy is all there but the harnessing of it is cloaked.

Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #50 on: April 28, 2023, 09:06:27 AM »

 Is it me or is it these people who are basically put out to muddy the waters?

Muddy the waters? By showing when you remove friction with air to the point it’s negligible, things of different density do drop at the same rate.  And at a rated predicted by gravity.




I'd say It's not me, you say differently and you can think whatever you wish.

That so-called vacuum chamber is nothing of the sort.
If it was a reality they certainly wouldn't be dropping a bowling ball and feathers inside of it and then standing there open-mouthed as if they'd just discovered something.

It's a joke.

Man.  This is the hill you’re going to kill den-pressure on?








Dude. The delusion that is den-pressure is over.


The established fact when you take air resistance out of the equation using a simple vacuum chamber/tube and a feather and more dense coin drop at the same rate.  Accelerating at the rate as modeled by gravity.

The fact you have to dismiss this means you’re a hack and a troll. 

Den-pressure is a useless delusion where you have to turn a blind eye and blatantly lie.

The more you post sceptimatic is just going to make you an increasing lying troll. 
« Last Edit: April 28, 2023, 09:14:11 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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sceptimatic

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #51 on: April 28, 2023, 09:09:20 AM »
along with its own dense mass displacement and then the lower pressure atmosphere above is also a lower pressure atmosphere below which means much less resistance, which means a bigger acceleration back to the foundation.
Again, you are appealing to the mass of the object, as if that mass is what is causing it to go down, and the atmosphere is merely resisting that.
Because that's what happens with a mass that has had energy applied to raise it into the atmosphere.
The dense mass must overcome the atmosphere directly below it but it cannot just do that, it requires atmospheric compression of its surroundings above its base by that object's own dense mass displacing it.
It's that compression that squeezes the object back to the foundation that is more dense than it. Usually liquid or a solid, or basically water or solid/near solid ground. And so on.

Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #52 on: April 28, 2023, 09:13:12 AM »

Not at all. There are millions and millions of experiments with physics and many people do an exceptional job with the use of experimentation and gaining knowledge of the uses of gases, liquids and solids and so on and so on.
I have zero issues with people like that and in fact, I absolutely admire them.


You’re a fucking hypocrite when it comes to a vacuum chamber..



Is it me or is it these people who are basically put out to muddy the waters?
I'd say It's not me, you say differently and you can think whatever you wish.

That so-called vacuum chamber is nothing of the sort.
If it was a reality they certainly wouldn't be dropping a bowling ball and feathers inside of it and then standing there open-mouthed as if they'd just discovered something.

It's a joke.


Why, when air resistance is made negligible, does a feather and a more dense coin drop at the same rate? 

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sceptimatic

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #53 on: April 28, 2023, 09:14:54 AM »
The established fact when you take air resistance out of the equation using a simple vacuum chamber/tube and a feather and more dense coin drop at the same rate.  Accelerating at the rate as modeled by gravity.

The fact you have to dismiss this means you’re a hack and a troll. 

Den-pressure is a useless delusion where you have to turn a blind eye and blatantly lie.

The more you post sceptimatic is just going to make you an increasing lying troll.
Just remember all you will ever do is lower pressure from inside a container and create even higher pressure outside of it.
Also, understand that there will always be friction/resistance to any object.
Also, understand that friction alone kills gravity because your gravity has to rely on no friction.
For this reason, you can never have your gravity as a supposed constant.


So no, denpressure is not dead. It's doing just fine and getting stronger with each day, as far as I'm concerned.
Whhat you decide you think it is or isn't, is not of any interest to me..

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sceptimatic

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #54 on: April 28, 2023, 09:17:54 AM »

Not at all. There are millions and millions of experiments with physics and many people do an exceptional job with the use of experimentation and gaining knowledge of the uses of gases, liquids and solids and so on and so on.
I have zero issues with people like that and in fact, I absolutely admire them.


You’re a fucking hypocrite when it comes to a vacuum chamber..
Not at all.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022

Why, when air resistance is made negligible, does a feather and a more dense coin drop at the same rate?
They don't drop at the same rate. They may appear to be over a small distance but the reality would be much different over a reality of just a feather itself without adding something to it to effect a straighter drop.

Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #55 on: April 28, 2023, 09:22:50 AM »
Just remember all you will ever do is lower pressure from inside a container and create even higher pressure outside of it.


The vacuum chamber is an air tight chamber with the outside pressure causing no effect on the inside vacuum of the chamber.  As shown by a vacuum chamber instrumentation

So nice lie by you that still doesn’t explain why when air resistance is made negligible things of different densities fall at the same rate.


And remember what I posted about there is no correlation between pressure and the rate at which falling objects accelerate.


First of all evacuating atmosphere from a container still leaves a pressure in that container that will create a pushback onto any dense mass within and displace that atmosphere.


Huh.

Funny.

This is how a Bourdon Tube Pressure Gauge works

Quote
Bourdon Tube Pressure Gauge Working Principle Animation

https://instrumentationtools.com/bourdon-tube-pressure-gauge-working-principle-animation/amp/

It is basically consisted of a C-shaped hollow tube, whose one end is fixed and connected to the pressure tapping, the other end free, as shown in fig. The cross section of the tube is elliptical.




When pressure is applied, the elliptical tube (Bourdon tube) tries to acquire a circular cross section; as a result, stress is developed and the tube tries to straighten up. Thus the free end of the tube moves up, depending on magnitude of pressure. A deflecting and indicating mechanism is attached to the free end that rotates the pointer and indicates the Pressure reading. The materials used are commonly Phosphor Bronze, Brass and Beryllium Copper.



So.  Let get this straight.   As the number of gas molecules are removed from a chamber equipped with a Bourdon Tube Pressure Gauge, the ability for the atmosphere to physically extend the Bourdon Tube is diminished.  The c shape of the tube physically contracts.

But in your den-pressure delusion where less atmospheric pressure in a container makes a Bourdon Tube “contact” and deflect the gauge to show less pressure.  Somehow will magically make things read the same weight, and have no change in weight in relationship to pressure changes.  But the same pressure change has less force to deform the Bourdon Tube, changes the shape of the Bourdon Tube so it can indicate the pressure change.


Den-pressure is bullshit. 


Note. Added.  And you can take the whole system and refrigerate it to temps approaching absolute zero to turn all gases to liquids….


Den-pressure is dead.  And you’re reduced to lies. 






Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #56 on: April 28, 2023, 09:26:40 AM »

They don't drop at the same rate. They may appear to be over a small distance but the reality would be much different over a reality of just a feather itself without adding something to it to effect a straighter drop.

Huh.  Yeah the do. They fall at the same rate over a long distance.


Quote
Brian Cox visits the world's biggest vacuum | Human Universe - BBC







Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #57 on: April 28, 2023, 09:34:59 AM »
feather itself without adding something to it to effect a straighter drop.


What was added to the feathers in this video?




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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #58 on: April 28, 2023, 09:46:26 AM »
The cavendish experiment is known to have several flaws. It doesn't do what it intends to do - measure the density of the earth. It is very difficult to even do this measuring in the first place using this experiment. Its extremely sensitive to outside forces. The effect of temperature can alter the results. The effect of air density can affect it. The effect of the imperfection of the lead spheres. Assuming the earth is round, the effect of the rotation is also not accounted for.

Its a horrible experiment.

Those aren't flaws, they are variables to be accounted for and controlled as well as possible.  No experiment is ever perfect and they are subject to some degree of error, but that doesn't mean they don't do what they set out to do.  It just means that experimental error exists and needs to be factored in.

The set up is very sensitive, but Cavendish did a decent job of controlling variables and got pretty close to the results we see under far more controlled conditions.
Even with far more controlled conditions you still get shit measurements.

That's why other constants are known to degrees of 8 to 14 significant digits, where as with G its thousands to billions of times greater. Even given G being the first one to be measured.

They are most certainly flaws, and if independent variables you can't account for or control aren't flaws in an experiment, nothing is.

You are just a laugh a minute.
"You are a very reasonable man John." - D1

"The lunatic, the lover, and the poet. Are of imagination all compact" - The Bard

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sceptimatic

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Re: Experiment ideas to prove Denpressure?
« Reply #59 on: April 28, 2023, 09:53:08 AM »
Just remember all you will ever do is lower pressure from inside a container and create even higher pressure outside of it.


The vacuum chamber is an air tight chamber with the outside pressure causing no effect on the inside vacuum of the chamber.  As shown by a vacuum chamber instrumentation
There is always an effect both outside and inside.
It may not appear to be to your eyes but you're allowing pressure in the chamber and adding that pressure to the exterior.


Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
So nice lie by you that still doesn’t explain why when air resistance is made negligible things of different densities fall at the same rate.
Things of different dense masses do not fall at the same rate.


Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
And remember what I posted about there is no correlation between pressure and the rate at which falling objects accelerate.
There absolutely is.
There is no such thing as gravity.



It is basically consisted of a C-shaped hollow tube, whose one end is fixed and connected to the pressure tapping, the other end free, as shown in fig. The cross section of the tube is elliptical.




When pressure is applied, the elliptical tube (Bourdon tube) tries to acquire a circular cross section; as a result, stress is developed and the tube tries to straighten up. Thus the free end of the tube moves up, depending on magnitude of pressure. A deflecting and indicating mechanism is attached to the free end that rotates the pointer and indicates the Pressure reading. The materials used are commonly Phosphor Bronze, Brass and Beryllium Copper.


You might as well offer up a party blower. Same principle. Just atmospheric pressure pushed into the party blower and allowed to release against a resistance.
It shows denpressure, not gravity.


Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
So.  Let get this straight.   As the number of gas molecules are removed from a chamber equipped with a Bourdon Tube Pressure Gauge, the ability for the atmosphere to physically extend the Bourdon Tube is diminished.  The c shape of the tube physically contracts.

As explained above.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022
But in your den-pressure delusion where less atmospheric pressure in a container makes a Bourdon Tube “contact” and deflect the gauge to show less pressure.  Somehow will magically make things read the same weight, and have no change in weight in relationship to pressure changes.  But the same pressure change has less force to deform the Bourdon Tube, changes the shape of the Bourdon Tube so it can indicate the pressure change.
As above the above.