What is a woman? plus Last Supper in Paris Olympics discussion.

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disputeone

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Re: What is a woman? plus Last Supper in Paris Olympics discussion.
« Reply #1350 on: August 26, 2024, 05:09:50 AM »
This comes down to what constitutes "fair"

I'm not playing the "what do words mean" game.

If something is fair it's not racist.
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns. 

Re: What is a woman? plus Last Supper in Paris Olympics discussion.
« Reply #1351 on: August 26, 2024, 08:19:22 AM »
You might, I wouldn’t.  Because the racial differences are marginal, and it would just create a lot more problems than it allegedly solves.
And you could say the same about sex.
Especially with the issue of trans athletes and intersex athletes and so on.

You could say it, but it would be bollocks.

Physiological differences between men and women are vastly greater than trends between races.  And for the vast majority of people, it’s very simple to tell if someone is biologically male or female.

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But that kind of fucks up the whole concept of international sports, doesn’t it?
That depends.
Are you having these international competitions to find the best athlete in general, at which point any segregation fucks it up; or just the best of a class?

But with multiculturalism, there are people of loads of races in pretty much every country.

Very very far from an even distribution even in the most multicultural countries.

China has dozens of ethnic minorities, but mostly from within China.  Very few white westerners and an absolute minuscule number of African descent.


Re: What is a woman? plus Last Supper in Paris Olympics discussion.
« Reply #1352 on: August 27, 2024, 06:41:57 PM »
To be fully inclusive and fair, the Olympics need to introduce the classes of trans men and trans women.

Trans women and trans men did not exist in the early days of the Olympics. Now they do, made possible only through medical technology and scientific breakthroughs.

They are men not born as men physically, and women not born as women physically.

The Olympics is all about physiology and weeding out the best of the best.

Or maybe, just like there is the Special Olympics, there could be a Trans Olympics.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2024, 06:47:57 PM by Smoke Machine »

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disputeone

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Re: What is a woman? plus Last Supper in Paris Olympics discussion.
« Reply #1353 on: August 27, 2024, 11:05:12 PM »
They are men not born as men physically, and women not born as women physically.

It's science.
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns. 

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JackBlack

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Re: What is a woman? plus Last Supper in Paris Olympics discussion.
« Reply #1354 on: September 01, 2024, 02:42:26 PM »
This comes down to what constitutes "fair"

I'm not playing the "what do words mean" game.
It is that different people have different ideas of what constitutes "fair".
With some people thinking active discrimination is fair. That idea of fair is still racist.

For the context of sports, there are 2 options. Option 1 - give everyone an equal chance of winning. For this you discriminate based upon anything which gives someone an advantage or disadvantage to try to make it so every contestant has the same chance of winning, i.e. the winner should be random.
Option 2 - You give everyone an equal challenge, where the better the person is, for whatever reason, that increases their chance of winning. Anything natural would be allowed, anything unnatural would not be.

Allowing visually impaired people to use glasses would be an example of option 1.
Prohibiting them would be an example of option 2.
Race and sex based discrimination (i.e. racism and sexism) would be an example of a poor implementation of option 1, which would also be prohibited under option 2.

The point is that if sex based segregation was about "being fair", then you would expect race based segregation to be as well, and also quite prominent.

If something is fair it's not racist.
That is how we got the idea of "different but equal", and a bunch of other racist crap.

You could say it, but it would be bollocks.
No, it wouldn't. As already explained.
The differences are significant. So if this segregation was based upon being fair, it would be based upon race as well, not just sex.

The sole reason it isn't is because society in general opposes racial discrimination but is still fine with sex based discrimination.

Very very far from an even distribution even in the most multicultural countries.
Who cares?
The point is you do have people from lots of origins.
And again, the question is what are you trying to get from it?

Are you saying you are fine with sexism in it because all countries have plenty of both sexes to show and don't want it to be a contest of what sex is best, but are happy for it to be a contest of what race is best?

The Olympics is all about physiology and weeding out the best of the best.
Except as clearly shown, it isn't.
That may have been how it started, but it certainly isn't anymore.
It is about money, or if you want, the best of an arbitrary division of people.

If it was the best of the best, there would be no divisions.

Re: What is a woman? plus Last Supper in Paris Olympics discussion.
« Reply #1355 on: September 03, 2024, 07:59:41 AM »

It is that different people have different ideas of what constitutes "fair".
With some people thinking active discrimination is fair. That idea of fair is still racist.

For the context of sports, there are 2 options. Option 1 - give everyone an equal chance of winning. For this you discriminate based upon anything which gives someone an advantage or disadvantage to try to make it so every contestant has the same chance of winning, i.e. the winner should be random.
Option 2 - You give everyone an equal challenge, where the better the person is, for whatever reason, that increases their chance of winning. Anything natural would be allowed, anything unnatural would not be.

Allowing visually impaired people to use glasses would be an example of option 1.
Prohibiting them would be an example of option 2.
Race and sex based discrimination (i.e. racism and sexism) would be an example of a poor implementation of option 1, which would also be prohibited under option 2.

The point is that if sex based segregation was about "being fair", then you would expect race based segregation to be as well, and also quite prominent.

Demonstrably false.  There’s obviously at least one third option between these 2 ridiculous extremes.  The option that is currently used.

We don’t try to give everyone an equal chance of winning, because sport is by nature competitive.  We do sort people into very broad categories to give different groups of people something to compete in. That why you can currently watch the Paralympic Games without able bodied rugby players barreling into guys in wheelchairs.  And of course we let them compete with their wheelchairs.

Just because you don’t like this option because of how unfair you think the world is for white men, doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

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You could say it, but it would be bollocks.
No, it wouldn't. As already explained.
The differences are significant. So if this segregation was based upon being fair, it would be based upon race as well, not just sex.

The sole reason it isn't is because society in general opposes racial discrimination but is still fine with sex based discrimination.

Explained by you falsely claiming swimming was the exception to black people having a significant sporting advantage, before backtracking and saying it wasn’t even clear what sports they might have an advantage in?  Good job explaining.

In reality, we only see a clear difference in a handful of mainly track and field events, and AFAIK it’s only the short distance running where we only see black people in international finals. 

Even then, there’s a tonne of factors that contribute to these things, such as the sports people play a lot in various countries, and  how much funding they put into training high level athletes.  You incorrectly attributed equestrian events to being about the horse. It isn’t.  It’s largely about wealth and class.  Poor kids in the Rift Valley Kenya don’t grow up prancing around on horses like the English upper classes do.  But they can run at high altitudes and often barefoot.  That’s at least one of the reasons why Kenya is currently smashing it at long distance running and not at horse dancing.

Even looking at the genetics, skin colour is a stupid criteria to go on.    (Also blatant racism).  Not all dark skinned ethnic groups are the same and neither are fair skinned ethnic groups.  Plus as previously mentioned there’s everything in between. 

We can even look at the history of some ethnic groups. Most African Americans and Jamaicans for example aren’t just black people, they are the descendants of slaves.  The product of a very unnatural selection where the weakest wouldn’t have survived the journey across the Atlantic or the systematic abuse on plantations.  That could be as significant as the colour of their skin.

As we’ve been over at the length, the top women wouldn’t stand a chance against the top men for most sports.  This is clearly not the case for race.

Sorting the men from the women is for the most part quite straightforward and the differences is physiology is very significant.  Sorting on race is a fucking minefield, and differences are quite marginal for sports in general. 

The top international football teams are racially diverse, but the very best women wouldn’t come close to making the squad if we just put everyone in together.

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Very very far from an even distribution even in the most multicultural countries.
Who cares?
The point is you do have people from lots of origins.
And again, the question is what are you trying to get from it?

Are you saying you are fine with sexism in it because all countries have plenty of both sexes to show and don't want it to be a contest of what sex is best, but are happy for it to be a contest of what race is best?

People who care about international sport would care.  We have a system where every country can compete with every other country.  The men against the men, the women against the women, the youths against the youths, the disabled against the disabled…

You’ve come up with yet another awesome plan to tear everything up based on your grievances and not giving a fuck what it would do to the world of sport.  Because as we’ve established you don’t follow or care about sport at all. 

So China for example only gets to compete with itself and the relative handful of people of Chinese descent in other countries. 

No thanks.

« Last Edit: September 03, 2024, 08:19:50 AM by Unconvinced »

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JackBlack

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Re: What is a woman? plus Last Supper in Paris Olympics discussion.
« Reply #1356 on: September 03, 2024, 02:17:46 PM »
Demonstrably false.  There’s obviously at least one third option between these 2 ridiculous extremes.  The option that is currently used.
The possibility of other options doesn't mean those options are fair.
The current is not fair and is not based upon being fair at all.

We do sort people into very broad categories to give different groups of people something to compete in.
And the question is what is the point?
If it was about dividing them so they don't have to compete against people much better, then that is trying to equalise the chance of winning, and failing at it.
But that isn't why they are doing it.

Explained by you falsely claiming swimming was the exception to black people having a significant sporting advantage, before backtracking and saying it wasn’t even clear what sports they might have an advantage in?
No, explained by pointing that in certain sports certain races dominate or certain races don't stand a chance.
How is that any different to males dominating or females not standing a chance.
The best you can do is say that difference isn't as much as sex. So what? That doesn't make that difference non-existent or non-significant.

You incorrectly attributed equestrian events to being about the horse. It isn’t.
I said more about the horse.
If you have a crap horse that can't run or jump, you aren't going to do well in those events.
If you have a bad horse with an attitude that wont do as you instruct, you aren't going to do well.

Poor kids in the Rift Valley Kenya don’t grow up prancing around on horses like the English upper classes do.  But they can run at high altitudes and often barefoot.  That’s at least one of the reasons why Kenya is currently smashing it at long distance running and not at horse dancing.
Except it isn't a simple case of kids who grew up in Kenya are good at it.
E.g. The gold medallist for the 100 m sprint was born and raised in the US.
3rd place was also born and raised in the US.

Even looking at the genetics, skin colour is a stupid criteria to go on.
And I never said that is all you should go on.

(Also blatant racism)
And there you just show your hypocrisy.
You oppose blatant racism, but are fine with blatant sexism.

As we’ve been over at the length, the top women wouldn’t stand a chance against the top men for most sports.  This is clearly not the case for race.
Except it quite clearly is the case for race, at least for some sports.
At the very least, race/genetics can play a significant role, and if you segregate on the basis of sex for "fairness", then you should be doing the same for race.

Sorting the men from the women is for the most part quite straightforward
If you are talking about the general population, yes.
If instead you are talking about Olympic athletes, then it starts getting far more complicated; with lots of the best "women" being accused of not being a woman.

differences are quite marginal for sports in general.
Again, if that was the case you would not have such racial dominance in some sports.

People who care about international sport would care.  We have a system where every country can compete with every other country.  The men against the men, the women against the women, the youths against the youths, the disabled against the disabled…
So why not also "the [insert race here] against the [insert race here]"?
But thanks for yet again show you don't care about finding the best, nor do you care about it being fair.
You just want it to be a contest where a bunch of people from arbitrary groups show off.

Because as we’ve established you don’t follow or care about sport at all.
Have you considered that part of the reason I don't care for it is because of how completely and utterly fucked up it is?
With people like you coming up with so many excuses only to contradict them about why it should be so fucked up?
And the issue of giving 2nd place in knockout competitions.

Re: What is a woman? plus Last Supper in Paris Olympics discussion.
« Reply #1357 on: September 03, 2024, 04:23:05 PM »
Demonstrably false.  There’s obviously at least one third option between these 2 ridiculous extremes.  The option that is currently used.
The possibility of other options doesn't mean those options are fair.
The current is not fair and is not based upon being fair at all.

We do sort people into very broad categories to give different groups of people something to compete in.
And the question is what is the point?
If it was about dividing them so they don't have to compete against people much better, then that is trying to equalise the chance of winning, and failing at it.
But that isn't why they are doing it.

The reason is that sports, and certainly sporting competitions used to be thing for men, and we later decided that the other half of the world should be able to have a go too.  We have female events so that exceptional female athletes who are gifted and put in a huge amount of effort can compete right up to international level.  So that children can have female sporting role models as well as male ones.

It’s NOT about trying to giving everyone an equal chance to win, because that’s not what sport is about.  And we just don’t need to do it for race.

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Explained by you falsely claiming swimming was the exception to black people having a significant sporting advantage, before backtracking and saying it wasn’t even clear what sports they might have an advantage in?
No, explained by pointing that in certain sports certain races dominate or certain races don't stand a chance.
How is that any different to males dominating or females not standing a chance.
The best you can do is say that difference isn't as much as sex. So what? That doesn't make that difference non-existent or non-significant.

The best I can say is it’s absolutely nowhere near the difference.  There are a handful events as pointed out, not the majority which you were implying.  Cultural differences and opportunity differences are far more significant. 

Why does tiny Norway get so many Winter Olympic medals while the whole of Africa gets none?  Because Scandinavians are genetically predisposed to be superior at skiing or because they have a lot of snow and everyone skis?

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You incorrectly attributed equestrian events to being about the horse. It isn’t.
I said more about the horse.
If you have a crap horse that can't run or jump, you aren't going to do well in those events.
If you have a bad horse with an attitude that wont do as you instruct, you aren't going to do well.

No one’s turning up to the Olympics with a horse they can’t control.  You might as well turn up to the velodrome with a penny farthing.

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Poor kids in the Rift Valley Kenya don’t grow up prancing around on horses like the English upper classes do.  But they can run at high altitudes and often barefoot.  That’s at least one of the reasons why Kenya is currently smashing it at long distance running and not at horse dancing.
Except it isn't a simple case of kids who grew up in Kenya are good at it.
E.g. The gold medallist for the 100 m sprint was born and raised in the US.
3rd place was also born and raised in the US.

No, it’s not a simple case.  It’s a factor.  The particular factor I was highlighting is that poor Africans do not tend to excel at rich people sports, but they can try running.

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Even looking at the genetics, skin colour is a stupid criteria to go on.
And I never said that is all you should go on.

Yet that is exactly how this started.  Whites vs blacks.

How would you carve up the world’s population based on race then?

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(Also blatant racism)
And there you just show your hypocrisy.
You oppose blatant racism, but are fine with blatant sexism.

Nope.  It’s not sexist to recognize that there are differences between men and women.  It’s not racist to recognize differences between ethnic groups and cultures.  It’s totally racist to simply those differences down to white people and black people.  eg to lump Australian aboriginals and Jamaicans in together because of black skin.

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As we’ve been over at the length, the top women wouldn’t stand a chance against the top men for most sports.  This is clearly not the case for race.
Except it quite clearly is the case for race, at least for some sports.
At the very least, race/genetics can play a significant role, and if you segregate on the basis of sex for "fairness", then you should be doing the same for race.

Only the case in a handful of straight running events and even then only really when you get right to the top level. 

At school, in the local sports club, in regional events (in multicultural countries) you would not assume that the fastest sprinter is necessarily black.  You can pretty much guarantee they will be male though.

That’s the biggest problem with just ditching womens sports.  It doesn’t just affect those at the top, but everyone playing at all levels. 

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Sorting the men from the women is for the most part quite straightforward
If you are talking about the general population, yes.
If instead you are talking about Olympic athletes, then it starts getting far more complicated; with lots of the best "women" being accused of not being a woman.

How many is lots?  I only heard about the one this year.

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People who care about international sport would care.  We have a system where every country can compete with every other country.  The men against the men, the women against the women, the youths against the youths, the disabled against the disabled…
So why not also "the [insert race here] against the [insert race here]"?
But thanks for yet again show you don't care about finding the best, nor do you care about it being fair.
You just want it to be a contest where a bunch of people from arbitrary groups show off.

Because that doesn’t work from country to country, obviously. 

Countries competing against each other is a thing in international sports, amazingly.

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Because as we’ve established you don’t follow or care about sport at all.
Have you considered that part of the reason I don't care for it is because of how completely and utterly fucked up it is?
With people like you coming up with so many excuses only to contradict them about why it should be so fucked up?
And the issue of giving 2nd place in knockout competitions.

Good to hear that you don’t follow sport because of people like me.

Have you considered that your reasons for thinking the existence of womens sports is fucked up is quite fucked up?


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JackBlack

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Re: What is a woman? plus Last Supper in Paris Olympics discussion.
« Reply #1358 on: September 06, 2024, 03:32:33 AM »
The reason is that sports, and certainly sporting competitions used to be thing for men, and we later decided that the other half of the world should be able to have a go too.
They could. No one was stopping them.
But thanks for admitting it has nothing at all to do with being fair or safety or any other crap like that.
It is just sexist BS to award participation trophies to sub-par athletes.

And the real reason it would included in the Olympics, was so they could control the women and stop them having their own.

The best I can say is it’s absolutely nowhere near the difference.
Which still leaves a significant difference.

Why does tiny Norway
Notice how you are appealing to a country, rather than race.
Right after I pointed out it isn't merely where they grew up?

No one’s turning up to the Olympics with a horse they can’t control.  You might as well turn up to the velodrome with a penny farthing.
The difference is that the horse propels itself, the penny farthing doesn't.

You may as well say no one turns up to the Olympics for a race who is morbidly obese and hasn't left their bed in a few months.

No, it’s not a simple case.  It’s a factor.  The particular factor I was highlighting is that poor Africans do not tend to excel at rich people sports, but they can try running.
Which does nothing to address the fact that race does play a role.

How would you carve up the world’s population based on race then?
Genetic testing. Based upon certain genes. Ideally those associated with good performance in the spots.

But as you have basically admitted it is just blatant sexism and has nothing to do with being fair, it is a moot point.

Nope.  It’s not sexist to recognize that there are differences between men and women.  It’s not racist to recognize differences between ethnic groups and cultures.  It’s totally racist to simply those differences down to white people and black people.  eg to lump Australian aboriginals and Jamaicans in together because of black skin.
So not what I was doing.

Only the case in a handful of straight running events and even then only really when you get right to the top level.
i.e. it IS the case for at least some sports.

At school, in the local sports club, in regional events (in multicultural countries) you would not assume that the fastest sprinter is necessarily black.  You can pretty much guarantee they will be male though.
No you can't.

How many is lots?  I only heard about the one this year.
And have you done any investigation into them?

Just in boxing there was 2, Lin Yu-ting and Imane Khelif
In 2020 there were 5 KNOWN cases.

Unless you actually do testing, or have people start making the accusations, it is fairly easy to fly under the radar.

Also, how many of them were excluded before they get there?

But if it has nothing to do with being fair and is just there for participation purposes, why does it matter? Surely if they look female it should be enough.

Because that doesn’t work from country to country, obviously.
And not all countries compete in all events anyway.
So they can compete in the events where they can.

Have you considered that your reasons for thinking the existence of womens sports is fucked up is quite fucked up?
Yes, I have considered it, and realise it is wrong, for a variety of reasons, especially with how people who claim that repeatedly contradict each other and need to resort to insults rather than arguments, and repeatedly apply double standards.

Have you considered that your reasons for thinking me recognising womens sport is fucked up is fucked up is actually what's really fucked up?

Re: What is a woman? plus Last Supper in Paris Olympics discussion.
« Reply #1359 on: September 06, 2024, 09:49:10 AM »
The reason is that sports, and certainly sporting competitions used to be thing for men, and we later decided that the other half of the world should be able to have a go too.
They could. No one was stopping them.
But thanks for admitting it has nothing at all to do with being fair or safety or any other crap like that.
It is just sexist BS to award participation trophies to sub-par athletes.

And the real reason it would included in the Olympics, was so they could control the women and stop them having their own.

WTF are you on about now?  Their own what?   Their own Olympic Games for women, just not at the same time?

Why?  You’ve made it clear that it’s  the principle of female events you object to. 

I’ve “admitted” nothing.  Don’t put words in my mouth. 

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The best I can say is it’s absolutely nowhere near the difference.
Which still leaves a significant difference.

A marginal difference, far outweighed by much more significant differences.  Cultural differences, opportunity differences, funding differences etc.

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Why does tiny Norway
Notice how you are appealing to a country, rather than race.
Right after I pointed out it isn't merely where they grew up?

I noticed how you’ve cut out and ignored my entire argument about why race is a far less significant factor than many other things.  Why even bother replying if you won’t address what I say?

You were talking about the distribution of medals between races for each sport earlier.  Well, you won’t find a much more uneven distribution than in the Winter Games.  So why do you think that is?

Are Scandinavians good at skiing because of their race, or because they have a lot of snow and do a lot of skiing?

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No one’s turning up to the Olympics with a horse they can’t control.  You might as well turn up to the velodrome with a penny farthing.
The difference is that the horse propels itself, the penny farthing doesn't.

You may as well say no one turns up to the Olympics for a race who is morbidly obese and hasn't left their bed in a few months.

Cyclists who take it seriously enough to compete at the top level don’t ride shit bikes.  Equally, riders in equestrian events don’t ride shit horses.

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No, it’s not a simple case.  It’s a factor.  The particular factor I was highlighting is that poor Africans do not tend to excel at rich people sports, but they can try running.
Which does nothing to address the fact that race does play a role.

A role that is dwarfed by other factors. 

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How would you carve up the world’s population based on race then?
Genetic testing. Based upon certain genes. Ideally those associated with good performance in the spots.

But as you have basically admitted it is just blatant sexism and has nothing to do with being fair, it is a moot point.

Again, I have not “admitted” that at all.  Stop inventing arguments for me that I do not make, you dishonest twat.  If I choose to “admit” something, I’ll fucking say so.

So why are you talking about race at all, if you want to go all Gattaca, and profile individuals based on their genes? 

Would you like to change your argument from being about race to something completely different?

It’s obviously absurd anyway.  We don’t know enough to assess all the factors based on genes.  Assuming we could do that, someone would have to work out exactly which attributes are most important for each sport and put together sone kind of matrix to group people.  Then they’d have to test each athlete.  What level is your gene mapping system supposed to start?  Would I need to submit to DNA testing to join a local team?  Who’s going to do all this work just for you and your idea that sport is totes unfair?

And to what end?  Why do this?

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Nope.  It’s not sexist to recognize that there are differences between men and women.  It’s not racist to recognize differences between ethnic groups and cultures.  It’s totally racist to simply those differences down to white people and black people.  eg to lump Australian aboriginals and Jamaicans in together because of black skin.
So not what I was doing.

Oh, really?:

Swimming seems to be the exception.
In most spots, black people tend to do better than white people.

Black people and white people.  So simplistic.  Also very wrong about “most sports”. 

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Only the case in a handful of straight running events and even then only really when you get right to the top level.
i.e. it IS the case for at least some sports.

ie a very marginal difference that isn’t worth worrying about compared to the absolute clusterfuck that trying to segregate people based on race would be. 

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At school, in the local sports club, in regional events (in multicultural countries) you would not assume that the fastest sprinter is necessarily black.  You can pretty much guarantee they will be male though.
No you can't.

Yes, you really can.  There would be exceptions, but they would be very rare.

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How many is lots?  I only heard about the one this year.
And have you done any investigation into them?

Just in boxing there was 2, Lin Yu-ting and Imane Khelif
In 2020 there were 5 KNOWN cases.

Unless you actually do testing, or have people start making the accusations, it is fairly easy to fly under the radar.

Also, how many of them were excluded before they get there?

But if it has nothing to do with being fair and is just there for participation purposes, why does it matter? Surely if they look female it should be enough.

Out of 11000 athletes. 

It’s your argument that it’s nothing to do with being fair.   If it doesn’t make sense, maybe you should figure out why?  I can’t help you with that.

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Because that doesn’t work from country to country, obviously.
And not all countries compete in all events anyway.
So they can compete in the events where they can.

Except countries that have only tiny proportions of each other’s majority race probably don’t get to compete together in any sport. 

That would be utterly shit for international sport and completely pointless.  Which of course you don’t care about.

It would fuck things up at local level too, but you I know you don’t care about that either.

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Have you considered that your reasons for thinking the existence of womens sports is fucked up is quite fucked up?
Yes, I have considered it, and realise it is wrong, for a variety of reasons, especially with how people who claim that repeatedly contradict each other and need to resort to insults rather than arguments, and repeatedly apply double standards.

Have you considered that your reasons for thinking me recognising womens sport is fucked up is fucked up is actually what's really fucked up?

There’s no contradiction.  It’s just about being sensible about what’s “fair”.

Gender: Big differences, easy to implement.

Racial: Tiny differences, a total fucking nightmare to try to account for.

One of the above is worth bothering with, the other would cause more problems than it tries to solve.  One of the above is beneficial to society, the other is not.

To understand this you would have to not be a total absolutist.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2024, 09:52:27 AM by Unconvinced »

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JackBlack

  • 22957
Re: What is a woman? plus Last Supper in Paris Olympics discussion.
« Reply #1360 on: September 06, 2024, 03:05:33 PM »
WTF are you on about now?  Their own what?   Their own Olympic Games for women, just not at the same time?
The real reason female sports were included in the Olympics.
It wasn't about giving them a chance.
The IOC refused to allow women to participate in sports like athletics. This refusal resulted in the formation of a "Women's Olympiad" which went on to become "Women's Olympic Games" with the IOC initially objecting to their use of the word "Olympic" so it change to "Women's World Games". Which then eventually resulted in the IOC wanting to take over and control it, with the founder of the IOC then saying "I do not approve of the participation of women in public competitions. In the Olympic Games, their primary role should be to crown the victors."

I’ve “admitted” nothing.  Don’t put words in my mouth.
I'm not putting words in your mouth, just stating the implications of what you are saying.
You are saying the women cannot compete with the top athletes and so there are separate events to allow them to participate.
That is saying it has nothing to do with being fair and instead is to have them participate, i.e. given them participation awards.

A marginal difference, far outweighed by much more significant differences.  Cultural differences, opportunity differences, funding differences etc.
Again, if that was the case you would expect it to be dominated by country, not by race (or groups of races).

I noticed how you’ve cut out and ignored my entire argument about why race is a far less significant factor than many other things.
Because your argument is not addressing when that is not the case.

This is really no different than to appealing to the difference between sexes.
It does nothing to negate the differences between race.
It is just a distraction.

Why even bother replying if you won’t address what I say?
If I decided to deflect by presenting an argument about how every pizza should have pineapple on it, would you bother addressing that?

Cyclists who take it seriously enough to compete at the top level don’t ride shit bikes.  Equally, riders in equestrian events don’t ride shit horses.
And equally, those cyclists aren't lazy slobs.

A role that is dwarfed by other factors.
Not in all sports.

Again, I have not “admitted” that at all.
Yes, you have.
You stated "The reason is that sports, and certainly sporting competitions used to be thing for men, and we later decided that the other half of the world should be able to have a go too."
That is saying the purpose of it is for participation.
That is not saying it is for fairness. In fact it is implying it has nothing to do with fairness.

Stop inventing arguments for me that I do not make, you dishonest twat.
Stop trying to hide from the implication implications of what you saying you dishonest POS.
I'll remain honest about it.

So why are you talking about race at all, if you want to go all Gattaca, and profile individuals based on their genes?
For the same reason people like cowgirl want to focus on genes/chromosomes for sex.

Certain genes make your race.
Or do you want to suggest there is no genetic component to race, and that instead it is something entirely different?

It’s obviously absurd anyway.  We don’t know enough to assess all the factors based on genes.
Just like sex.
But that doesn't stop people saying that if someone has a Y-chromosome they should be excluded from women's sport.

Then they’d have to test each athlete.
Or they can stick to the same suspicion based testing that is used for women's events.

And to what end?  Why do this?
Again, if it was about fairness, it would be to make sport fair, to remove genetic advantage. You know the same argument people claim about

Black people and white people.
Which is not simplifying all those differences down to it.
If you would like a comparison, it would be like grouping together all flying things, including most birds and bats.
That isn't simplifying all the differences down to just flying or not.
It is just one way to group.

ie a very marginal difference
No, a significant difference.

that isn’t worth worrying about compared to the absolute clusterfuck that trying to segregate people based on race would be.
And the same can be said about segregating based on sex.

The difference is you are used to that sex based segregation and approve of it, but you don't for race.

I know this might surprise you, but for amateurs, men and women will often compete together. Especially at the casual level.

Yes, you really can.
No, you can't.
As you get higher up in competition, you are more likely to be able to, and that applies for both.

Out of 11000 athletes.
Again, how many were tested?

It’s your argument that it’s nothing to do with being fair.
And yet you say it is for their participation.

Except countries that have only tiny proportions of each other’s majority race probably don’t get to compete together in any sport.
Just like countries with very few good skiers will compete in skiing competitions.

It would fuck things up at local level too, but you I know you don’t care about that either.
No more so than sex based segregation.

There’s no contradiction.
There is plenty.
There are some saying it is about being fair, then try to make it purely about sex rather than any other factor that can contribute to fairness, and use arbitrary standards for what should constitute being "female" with no connection to fairness; and you then have contradictions for those saying it is about women participating, rather than actually about fairness.

It’s just about being sensible about what’s “fair”.
You mean it is about arbitrarily deciding what you think is worth it, and rejecting anything you don't think is worth it, showing you don't actually care about it being fair, and instead really want it to be about a group you want to participate being able to participate and "win".

One of the above is beneficial to society, the other is not.
They are equally beneficial to society.
The difference is one society would condemn as blatant racism while the other society is happy to ignore and pretend isn't blatant sexism.
While at the same time society is quite divided on how trans athletes and intersex and non-binary athletes should compete; with some saying they shouldn't be allowed to compete as women while others say they should.
And that results in society being divided and causing damage to society.

To understand this you would have to not be a total absolutist.
Or a sexist pig. To realise why your argument is BS, you would have to not be a sexist pig and be able to look past society conditioning you into what to accept as acceptable.

Kind of like how you need to look past people trying to say heterosexual marriage is good for society while gay marriage is not, and get past society conditioning people to be homophobic bigots.

Re: What is a woman? plus Last Supper in Paris Olympics discussion.
« Reply #1361 on: September 07, 2024, 08:30:11 AM »
WTF are you on about now?  Their own what?   Their own Olympic Games for women, just not at the same time?
The real reason female sports were included in the Olympics.
It wasn't about giving them a chance.
The IOC refused to allow women to participate in sports like athletics. This refusal resulted in the formation of a "Women's Olympiad" which went on to become "Women's Olympic Games" with the IOC initially objecting to their use of the word "Olympic" so it change to "Women's World Games". Which then eventually resulted in the IOC wanting to take over and control it, with the founder of the IOC then saying "I do not approve of the participation of women in public competitions. In the Olympic Games, their primary role should be to crown the victors."

Outdated views that are irrelevant to modern sports and this discussion.  Don’t try to claim the moral high ground about “controlling women”, when you’ve made it clear your objection is to women’s sports in principle. 

You would call the organizers of a separate Women’s Olympics “sexist pigs”, just as you to everyone else who disagrees with you.

Quote
I’ve “admitted” nothing.  Don’t put words in my mouth.
I'm not putting words in your mouth, just stating the implications of what you are saying.
You are saying the women cannot compete with the top athletes and so there are separate events to allow them to participate.
That is saying it has nothing to do with being fair and instead is to have them participate, i.e. given them participation awards.

What a fucking condescending lie, dripping with distain for female athletes.  They are NOT “participation awards”, you nasty little chauvinist.  They are awards for WINNING.

Quote
A marginal difference, far outweighed by much more significant differences.  Cultural differences, opportunity differences, funding differences etc.
Again, if that was the case you would expect it to be dominated by country, not by race (or groups of races).

Which they are, in a huge number of sports.  Far more than the tiny number running events you are basing your whole argument on.  But you are apparently refusing to talk about that.

The Winter games are a prime example of sports dominated by both country and race.  They are as white as the snow they ski on.  Where are all the black skiers?

Or we could look at football, the world’s most popular sport, played by most counties.  International competitions are quite heavily dominated by a few European and a couple of South American countries.  Mixed races teams, both for international squads and the top domestic leagues. 

Why do you think the squads aren’t all just black players?  Could it possibly be that race doesn’t make a fat lot of difference?

Quote
I noticed how you’ve cut out and ignored my entire argument about why race is a far less significant factor than many other things.
Because your argument is not addressing when that is not the case.

This is really no different than to appealing to the difference between sexes.
It does nothing to negate the differences between race.
It is just a distraction.

LOL.  It’s a “distraction” because you don’t want to talk about how much more significant it is than race.

Unlike your pointless crap about the IOC above, I suppose?  Totally not a distraction, that.

Quote
Why even bother replying if you won’t address what I say?
If I decided to deflect by presenting an argument about how every pizza should have pineapple on it, would you bother addressing that?

Don’t be a fucking child.  I’m talking about factors that are far more significant than race in sports.  It’s completely relevant and on topic.

Quote
Cyclists who take it seriously enough to compete at the top level don’t ride shit bikes.  Equally, riders in equestrian events don’t ride shit horses.
And equally, those cyclists aren't lazy slobs.

Obviously not.  Do you have a point?

Quote
A role that is dwarfed by other factors.
Not in all sports.

Are you abandoning the ridiculous claim that black people tend to do better in most sports?

In fact the only sport where there’s a real obvious difference is running in a straight line at the very top tier.  As soon as there’s more to it than that, it’s negligible.

Quote
Again, I have not “admitted” that at all.
Yes, you have.
You stated "The reason is that sports, and certainly sporting competitions used to be thing for men, and we later decided that the other half of the world should be able to have a go too."
That is saying the purpose of it is for participation.
That is not saying it is for fairness. In fact it is implying it has nothing to do with fairness.

The point is to try to make sport inclusive AND fair.

Quote
Stop inventing arguments for me that I do not make, you dishonest twat.
Stop trying to hide from the implication implications of what you saying you dishonest POS.
I'll remain honest about it.

You are hiding from the implications of your batshit ideas to can women’s sports and/or introduce racial profiling. 

My argument has no implications.  I’m just trying to explain how things work.

Quote
So why are you talking about race at all, if you want to go all Gattaca, and profile individuals based on their genes?
For the same reason people like cowgirl want to focus on genes/chromosomes for sex.

Certain genes make your race.
Or do you want to suggest there is no genetic component to race, and that instead it is something entirely different?

And which of those genes relate to sporting performance?  Are the genes that cause high levels of melanin the same the ones that that determine how fast someone can run?  Do we even know the mechanism for the slight increase in running speed for some black people?

Quote
It’s obviously absurd anyway.  We don’t know enough to assess all the factors based on genes.
Just like sex.
But that doesn't stop people saying that if someone has a Y-chromosome they should be excluded from women's sport.

Bullshit.  We know that X and Y chromosomes have a massive impact on how the body develops (eg. dick or vag).  And that has a massive impact on sporting performance, which has been extremely well researched.

Quote
And to what end?  Why do this?
Again, if it was about fairness, it would be to make sport fair, to remove genetic advantage. You know the same argument people claim about

…women?

You’ve taken the argument to absurd extremes to try to show some kind of logical equivalence.   But this ignores real world considerations, about how much more complicated it would be with race, how marginal the differences are for performance and how it would affect minority groups.

Quote
Black people and white people.
Which is not simplifying all those differences down to it.
If you would like a comparison, it would be like grouping together all flying things, including most birds and bats.
That isn't simplifying all the differences down to just flying or not.
It is just one way to group.

More distraction.  Your claim was that black people tend to do better at most sports than white people.

That is wrong.

Quote
that isn’t worth worrying about compared to the absolute clusterfuck that trying to segregate people based on race would be.
And the same can be said about segregating based on sex.

The difference is you are used to that sex based segregation and approve of it, but you don't for race.

I know this might surprise you, but for amateurs, men and women will often compete together. Especially at the casual level.

Of course they do.  And that’s where you would keep women, playing at amateur level.

We have competitions for those who take it a bit more seriously.  We have separate events for men and women, because the men have a big advantage.

Quote
Yes, you really can.
No, you can't.
As you get higher up in competition, you are more likely to be able to, and that applies for both.

The differences become apparent during puberty.  By the time children are about 14, boys significantly outpace girls.  The differences would be glaringly obvious even in school.

For race, you have to go all the way up to top tier tournaments to see the difference.  And then only in a handful of events.

Quote
Except countries that have only tiny proportions of each other’s majority race probably don’t get to compete together in any sport.
Just like countries with very few good skiers will compete in skiing competitions.

No.  Not just like that at all.  Some countries don’t play some sports.  This is fine, no one is forcing them to play everything.

But telling Asian countries they can’t play the sports they play against African countries because they can’t field a team of the right race is just shitty. 

Quote
It would fuck things up at local level too, but you I know you don’t care about that either.
No more so than sex based segregation.

Very much more with minority groups.   What if there aren’t enough black kids in the local area to field a local black team?  They’re not allowed to join the white kid team.

Just horrible.  And another classic example of you not thinking about the implications of the shit you come up with.

The rest is just more of the same. 

Re: What is a woman? plus Last Supper in Paris Olympics discussion.
« Reply #1362 on: September 10, 2024, 10:44:15 AM »
Hmm, "What is a woman"?

Now, this is a tricky question to answer because I don't want to stereotype.

I would say a woman is a person who talks first and thinks second. Or put another way, speaks before thinking.

Is everybody happy with this answer? :)

*

JackBlack

  • 22957
Outdated views that are irrelevant to modern sports and this discussion.
And some would say sex based segregation is outdated.
Yet here you are, defending it.

Don’t try to claim the moral high ground about “controlling women”, when you’ve made it clear your objection is to women’s sports in principle.
No, my objection is to sex based segregation and discrimination in principle.

What a fucking condescending lie, dripping with distain for female athletes.
No, it is just simple honesty which you wish to hide from.

They are NOT “participation awards”, you nasty little chauvinist.  They are awards for WINNING.
For winning in a league invented for participation because they couldn't compete without it. i.e. participation awards.

Which they are, in a huge number of sports.
Which do nothing to address sports which have a significant difference based upon race.

LOL.  It’s a “distraction” because you don’t want to talk about how much more significant it is than race.
No, it is a distraction because it is just ignoring the sports where race does play a significant part.

The point is to try to make sport inclusive AND fair.
Which are contradictory.
If it is about having women compete, it is not about being fair, it is about establishing a separate participation league restricted to just women to have them compete.
If it is about being fair, you don't appeal to sex, and instead have a league for those who can't compete at the top level.

You are hiding from the implications of your batshit ideas to can women’s sports and/or introduce racial profiling.
No, I'm not.
I'm primarily using race as a counterexample, where something can have a difference, but because there is enough participation no one seems to care about being "fair".

My argument has no implications.
It does, which you try to escape at all costs.

And which of those genes relate to sporting performance?  Are the genes that cause high levels of melanin the same the ones that that determine how fast someone can run?
No, it doesn't. Just like sex determination and secondary sex characteristics related to sporting performance is not a simple binary either. But people seem happy trying to reduce it to that for sex.

And if you remember, I suggested using genes, ideally those based upon performance.

Bullshit.
Not BS.
We know general sex determination, and general processes which involve many genes.
We also know of intersex conditions where one or more of these genes are missing or defective, with significant implication for performance.
You instead ignore all this complexity and instead try to distil it down to chromosomes.
And as well as that, there are countless other genes which interact.

Otherwise, it would be a simple case of all men have the same performance (assuming they train the same) and all women do. But we don't see that at all.

You’ve taken the argument to absurd extremes
It isn't an absurd extreme.
It is just showing how ridiculous and hypocritical your position is.
And this is the case for society in general with the stark contrast between how it treats race vs sex.

e.g. race based segregation for schools, bathrooms, etc are strictly prohibited, with society seeing it as racist bigotry.
But the same for sex is deemed perfectly acceptable by society and often called for; even when for example with schools this can result in males and females being given drastically different education with not always having the same subjects available, leading to significant inequality for opportunities later in life.

More distraction.
Not a distraction, pointing out the dishonesty of your misrepresentation.

We have competitions for those who take it a bit more seriously.
No, we have competitions for those who are better at it (and women). We are not measuring how serious they are about it.

We have separate events for men and women, because the men have a big advantage.
You have already admitted the separate events are for allowing women to participate, so not because men have a big advantage.
Again, if it was about advantage, it wouldn't just be divided based upon sex.

But telling Asian countries they can’t play the sports they play against African countries because they can’t field a team of the right race is just shitty.
Then oppose segregation in general.
Especially considering it is possible for the exact same thing to happen with a female vs male team.

What if there aren’t enough black kids in the local area to field a local black team?  They’re not allowed to join the white kid team.
What if there isn't enough [insert sex here] kinds in the local area to field a [insert same sex here]? They're not allowed to join the [insert opposite sex here] team.
And yes, there are plenty of cases where girls couldn't compete because there wasn't a team for them, even if they were good enough to make the team.

Again, you are the one promoting segregation, not me.

What a fucking condescending lie, dripping with distain for female athletes.
No, it is just simple honesty which you wish to hide from.

They are NOT “participation awards”, you nasty little chauvinist.  They are awards for WINNING.
For winning in a league invented for participation because they couldn't compete without it. i.e. participation awards.

Bullshit.  A participation trophy or award is one that is given to everyone who enters, regardless of how well they do.  Typically given to very young children so the fat kid who came last gets a prize and doesn’t have a little cry.

Is that how women’s sporting events work?  No.

You either used the term to deliberately belittle female athletes, or you don’t know what it means.  Either way you should apologize for the insult.

PS I’m not playing your little game of trying to respond to a paragraph of yours for every sentence I write anymore.  In this or any other thread.  Especially when it’s just repeating the same thing over and over.  Other forum users hate it and it’s a waste of my time.