Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth

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bulmabriefs144

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1170 on: May 20, 2025, 05:28:05 AM »
None of that has anything to do with sun size, in the same way as the swinging a door open or closed doesn't create the same noticeable distortion as for instance yanking a door off its hinges and throwing it 20 ft away.


Wrong.




The FE model, the sun would change distance from me in Ohio through the day. 

Nags for about three pages like an entitled prick, again without even bothering to draw a simple dot on a simple picture, like I asked you to. Barter involves a good faith exchange. I would have settled for even a pathetic looking dot. So I do your job for you (I missed, and dotted Indiana), then I give a lame animation that still manages to take about three hours of my life that I'm not getting back. At 42, I feel about half as healthy as when I was 21, and in eight years I'll be fifty. I'm also an author of several non-best-selling books meaning I have many of the bad habits of a writer without the payoff.
So this is time that pisses me off to waste. The first words out of your mouth is that it's wrong and this is how it should behave on my model.

Who says? You're forcing my model through a straw man toothpaste tube so you can say what it does and does not do.

You don't like it when I define RE, right? I tell you that in the RE, this is like this, and that is like that. You don't think maybe some equivalence is wanted here? No?

Okay then. In RE, tides should roll straight across the Earth, flooding cities. No, I'm not talking about a little four foot tide, I mean Japan-tier tsunamis all around the world. In RE, sunrise and sunset should shift every 3 months, advancing forward 6 hours due to the sun's light hitting at 90° from the original location. The sun should, if it is far larger than the Earth and able to exert gravity, cause all of the planets to fall down into the sun, not orbit.

No? Then don't say the word "should" to me again. The sun does change size some but because we humans don't look directly at it, it's not noticeable. Should the sun change size? We've been over this: the sun is equidistant from a center point all day long. Rotary lateral distance (think of a watch or pendant on a chain that you grab and swing it around) is not quite the same as frontal distance (now toss it across the room). Similarly birds that fly past from behind you to far in from of you look different from birds that fly past from the side. For 80% of the day (only deviating during sunrise and sunset) the sun is mainly just moving past in a horizon circle. Except when the sun moves directly towards us or directly away from us, it is swinging so to our eyes, we instead interpret it as an angle. You create a convoluted rotation model and tell me that it should solve all the problems that FE should have. No, it should have problems of its own, namely that you should be seeing a large bisected disc, that should move straight across instead of arcing up and down over the course of the day. And if you say that light from stars doesn't ever fade out (the obstruction only, never distance thing where we humans can see stars that are supposedly billions of miles away), then you cannot magically decide that the sun and moon should be the same size.

Science is not about what should be. It is about what observably is. If you've decided you already know what the results should be, you are not listening at all, when someone tells you that perhaps you're letting bias influence your observation, and tuning out ideas that don't fit what you think ought to be so.

For the Reno race GIF, notice the first 1.5 seconds, as the plane turns. It only marginally changes size. Then as it zooms away at a distance, it gets smaller.

That is, as something appears at lateral point, you get this phenomenon.

Point++++++++++center+++++++++++point
                                     +
                                     +
                                 onlooker

But when facing directly at it to gauge distance...

Point++++++++++center+++++++++++point
       \                             
         \                         
           \  onlooker
             \
               \
                 \
                   \  onlooker
                     \
                       \
                         \
                           \onlooker
                               
We mention birds flying past. If the onlooker turns their head to diagonal, they gauge distances of the birds, and the bird appear to grow and shrink as they fly past. Horizontal distance. But lateral movement is not the same. When the viewer looks straight at the horizon, and birds fly past, the change in distance goes largely unnoticed.

From your dot in Ohio, the sun sweeps around you in a circle, and you look at it from that same angle as the birds flying past.

I noticed this perspective while watching fireworks. I walked up and down the shoreline looking for the best location, until finally I realized that lateral sweep is a thing.

The vanishing point of the sunset only happens in the last two minutes. For about an hour before sunset, we can see it merely changing angles. Then it sorta gets closer and closer to the horizon line, and then we finally (while watching the water) see glare on the water begin to pull back. When glare recedes completely, you can look directly at the disc of the sun (I did this last year), and about that point, it only takes a minute or two to sink and you do see shrinkage. If it goes behind a tree or mountain, you never get to see this shrink. You likely never see that, because unlike Virginia, Ohio has shit beach line. You can see the sun set from what, the Great Lakes? Weak...
https://babiesandbeaches.com/closest-ocean-beach-to-ohio/
"Amazing beaches from eight to eleven hours away!"
« Last Edit: May 20, 2025, 06:18:59 AM by bulmabriefs144 »
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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1171 on: May 20, 2025, 07:19:24 AM »

Who says? You're forcing my model through a straw man toothpaste tube so you can say what it does and does not do.



Wow.  Another meaningless incoherent my Bulma.

Bulma, the blue line is the path of the sun you drew for your flat earth model.

I did not “redefine” your model.  I draw lines to the blue line you provided.  The path you claim the sun travels for your model.




The FE model, the sun would change distance from me in Ohio through the day. 

Where watching the sun in Ohio would be like watching an airplane from the infield of an airplane pylon race.



The sun on a flat earth model for someone in Ohio requires the sun to drastically change apparent size through the day.  Especially if you posted this..


For the 1100th time, the parabola represents the narrowing perspective of vanishing point.

If you think the sun “sets” in the flat earth model by involving vanishing point.  The sun would have to change apparent size through the day and shrink in apparent size all afternoon. 


The actual area of sunlight by the way..






FE fails and is a hot messy contradiction.



« Last Edit: May 20, 2025, 07:31:51 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1172 on: May 20, 2025, 07:30:35 AM »

 The sun does change size some but because we humans don't look directly at it, it's not noticeable.

One.  Your model requires the sun to shrink to the point vanishing can be invoked for sunset.


For the 1100th time, the parabola represents the narrowing perspective of vanishing point.


Two.  Proper filtered video and time lapse shows the sun doesn’t change apparent size at all hour by hour that is noticeable to the human eye.

Whole thread on it.

The Size of the Sun the Past Few Days - No Proof Dimensions Shrinks
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=93094.0

Which has been pointed out to you Bulma.  And you act like the thread doesn’t exist?

Eric Dubay himself has a picture of the sun shrinking in places like the desert.



Funny.  This is time lapse of an actual sunset.




Which contradicts what you claim.

A whole thread.

The Size of the Sun the Past Few Days - No Proof Dimensions Shrinks
https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=93094.0

Which contradicts what you claim.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2025, 07:33:19 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1173 on: May 20, 2025, 07:41:10 AM »
 8)

For the Reno race GIF,

Making a similar circuit to the camera like what is required by the sun passing by a person in Ohio on your flat earth where the center of the sun’s path is at the North Pole.  So, yes.  The sun is going to greatly change in apparent size for a person in Ohio as the sun changes distance from that person in Ohio. 

To post otherwise is just stupidity.

If you think the sun makes a circuit like this to a person in Ohio that isn’t  at the center of the sun’s path.



It’s going to change distance greatly hour by hour to a person in Ohio.




The FE model, the sun would change distance from me in Ohio through the day. 

Where watching the sun in Ohio would be like watching an airplane from the infield of an airplane pylon race



The sun on a flat earth model for someone in Ohio requires the sun to drastically change apparent size through the day.

Bulma.  Your model makes no sense for what is actually witnessed hour by hour for the sun for a person in Ohio.  Flat earth fails to correctly model the sun from what is actually witnessed. 
« Last Edit: May 20, 2025, 07:44:24 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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JackBlack

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1174 on: May 20, 2025, 03:03:59 PM »
Summer.
As you'll note, the entire 24 hours, the pole never loses sunlight. And for least 12 hours, the sections of the northern hemisphere get sun, but so does much of Africa and South America. There probably is some sun, but we're talking about short days with mostly bitter cold in such areas.
And as you'll note, it pretty much entirely fails to match what happens in reality.
Notice that you don't 12 hours of sun for the entire northern hemisphere.
Instead it only applies to places north of the tropics (and doesn't even include the tropics).
But look at the equator. It gets much less than 12 hours of daylight.
And it gets even more ridiculous south of the equator.
e.g. you go from sunrise in Sydney, to 6 hours later having the sun set in in South Australia.
Yet even in the peak of the northern summer Sydney still gets almost 10 hours of daylight. Your model has it getting much less than 6.

Winter
Sunlight to much of Canada. No need for huge circles or a long bar. Winter inversion means that summer in southern hemisphere.
Even more of a complete and utter failure.
Now nowhere receives 12 hours of daylight.
Yet plenty of observations show that the equator still receives roughly 12 hours of daylight, and as you go further south you get more.
e.g. going back to Sydney, at the peak of the southern summer, they are getting roughly 14.5 hours of daylight.

Your model has pretty much completely failed.
It is complete and utter crap which hasn't even come close to matching reality.

We're starting it with the midnight sun, then showing how indeed you cannot get a midnight sun south of the equator by a simple light overhead.
i.e. the FE model is wrong, because you can get the midnight summer south of the equator.

I'm pretty sure Occam's razor says they were in a CGI room and leave it at that.
No, it says Earth is round and they were in Antarctica and observed the midnight sun which is visible there.
This RE model can even explain the observed daylight patterns which you have entirely failed to do.

Much simpler, and no need for any of your paranoid BS.
Why assume CGI, when it being real and Earth being round is much simpler?

Lemme guess, you'll make your little chevron thing to "prove" that the sun angles a bit or something.
No. I'll point out the fact that you have failed to provide a model which actually matches the observed daylight patterns.
Again, this relates directly to the diagram I provided before:

Again, this is talking about the southern summer.
We know the Arctic circle gets darkness, which means the distance r1 shown in that diagram has to be greater than or equal to the size of your circle of illumination.
But we also know the equator receives 12 hours, meaning r2 has to be roughly that distance. and we know that south of the equator they get more daylight, so r3 has to be shorter.

There is simply no way to have your model work with a circle of illumination from the sun.
Such a model would require r1>=r2>r3.
But a quite simple observation of the picture shows the opposite, that r3>r2>r1.

This shows beyond any doubt that your model cannot work.

None of that has anything to do with sun size, in the same way as the swinging a door open or closed doesn't create the same noticeable distortion as for instance yanking a door off its hinges and throwing it 20 ft away.
Actually, it does have a lot to do with the size, because of the drastic change in distance relative to the distance to the sun.
Try opening the door, with it starting basically touching your nose.

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JackBlack

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1175 on: May 20, 2025, 03:09:24 PM »
Barter involves a good faith exchange.
Something you refuse to do.
So why should anyone do it for you?

then I give a lame animation that still manages to take about three hours of my life that I'm not getting back.
And yet you don't even apply the tiniest bit of critical thinking to see it doesn't match reality at all.

Who says?
Simple math.
You have the distance to the sun dramatically changing, so this should result in an associated difference in the angular size of the sun.

You don't like it when I define RE, right?
This isn't about definition, it is about logical consequences.
We don't simply say "your model means the angular size of the sun should change".
Instead, we explain way.

Compare that to what you do with the RE model, where you just assert complete crap that something should happen with no justification.

So no, there is no equivalence here.

Again, it is truly quite simple, you have the distance to the sun change dramatically.
That requires it to change angular size dramatically.

You not liking the logical consequences of your model because it shows it is wrong doesn't mean you get to just define it away.
e.g. you can't take those images you provided and claim that the equator still gets 12 hours of daylight regardless of the time of year.
And likewise, you don't get to just assert crap about the RE with no justification.

We've been over this: the sun is equidistant from a center point all day long.
Yes, we have been over this, with you just deflecting from the issue.
In your model, we are not at the centre point, so that is entirely irrelevant.
Likewise, appealing to height alone and ignoring the other component is also a pathetic deflection.

Similarly birds that fly past from behind you to far in from of you look different from birds that fly past from the side.
No where near as much as you want to pretend.

For 80% of the day (only deviating during sunrise and sunset) the sun is mainly just moving past in a horizon circle.
If that was the case it would maintain the same angle of elevation throughout the day.

tell me that it should solve all the problems that FE should have.
No, we explain to you how it does address the issues that FE has.
In this case the simplest issue is distnace.
For the FE model, you have the sun going from a height h directly above someone, with different FEers providing different numbers, but I think you said less than 100 km.
To going above a point some 10 000 km away.
That is changing distance from 100 km to over 10 000 km.
That is a massive change in distance. It is a ~10000 % change.

And this isn't just near sunrise and sunset.
Even 3 hours later, well before sunset, it would be over a point 5000 km away. That would be a ~5000% change.

For the RE model on the other hand, assuming you could see through Earth to see the sun at midnight, you have a change of less than 14 000 km, out of roughly 150 000 000 km. That is a change of 0.009%.

So yes, there clearly is an issue with the FE model you present.
And yes, the RE model clearly solves that issue.

No, it should have problems of its own
You being desperate for it to have problems doesn't mean it should.
Notice how again you just baselessly assert crap with no justification at all?

Science is not about what should be. It is about what observably is.
That is the first part.
The next part is making a model based upon those observations.
Then the next part, the really important part you want to ignore, is making a prediction of what should happen based upon the model, and testing that.
If what should happen based upon the model matches what does happen in reality, then the model passes the test and may be right.
But as is the case with your garbage, if what should happen based upon the model does not happen in reality, then the model is wrong.

If you aren't trying to make predictions about what should happen given the model, and testing if that matches what does happen, then you aren't doing science.

If you've decided you already know what the results should be, you are not listening at all, when someone tells you that perhaps you're letting bias influence your observation, and tuning out ideas that don't fit what you think ought to be so.
Great job projecting.
You are the one who has decided that you already know what the results should be, and you refuse to listen to anything which shows you are wrong, instead making up whatever excuses you can to pretend you are correct, while refusing to engage with things which so clearly show you are wrong.

For the Reno race GIF, notice the first 1.5 seconds, as the plane turns. It only marginally changes size.
i.e. when it remains roughly the same distance away, as if it is circling you.
Quite unlike your fantasy unless you are at the north pole.

the bird appear to grow and shrink as they fly past.
Just like the sun should, as it flies past.

From your dot in Ohio, the sun sweeps around you in a circle
No, it doesn't. That is for the north pole.
Instead, it flies past you, getting closer and further.

Again, in order for you to honestly think that, you need to look at that diagram Data provided and tell everyone that those arrows are all the same length.

The vanishing point of the sunset only happens in the last two minutes.
Again, if this was the case, the angle of elevation would be the same except for those 2 minutes.
It also makes absolutely no sense for it to do that.
And then even during sunset, it still doesn't shrink.

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bulmabriefs144

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1176 on: May 20, 2025, 05:24:05 PM »

Who says? You're forcing my model through a straw man toothpaste tube so you can say what it does and does not do.



Wow.  Another meaningless incoherent my Bulma.

Bulma, the blue line is the path of the sun you drew for your flat earth model.

I did not “redefine” your model.  I draw lines to the blue line you provided.  The path you claim the sun travels for your model.



The FE model, the sun would change distance from me in Ohio through the day. 

Where watching the sun in Ohio would be like watching an airplane from the infield of an airplane pylon race.




I am well aware what the blue line is, having after all drawn it.

What you are doing however is exactly redefining things.

The plane in question is flying away while you look at it like so:



The plane could fly in a straight line away from you in any direction and because of the equal length of the lines (yes, I am well aware that these lines are not actually equal length, bear with it) and you will see it diminish at the same rate at any direction. Correct? Or are you going to fight with me on every point?

Likewise we have a crow... carrying a falcon, flying across the horizon.



As this is at or approaching eye level, you will notice that these lines being *ahem* the same length, means that all points at a certain distance away are equidistant.
Btw, in my very first geometry class, they taught us about equidistance. You must have been sleeping. Anyway, this means that as this bird passes across these lines, it never get closer, and it never gets further. Of course, it actually does to some extent.  If the bird is 25 ft in front of you, and has been moved 15 ft directly to the side, it is actually 25 ft plus the 15 ft, but your eyes don't accurately take that into account. It is 25 ft, looking straight ahead, so distance is perceived to be equidistant.



So anyway, this should look like lines of different lengths, and it should should appear to shrink, but it actually kinda sorta... doesn't. This is because no, for the most part in a flat Earth, the sun only moves at best a few thousand miles in an entire day, and most of the time that this is visible, we are talking about lateral motion.

But in the same way as *ahem* your own RE works, the lateral motion is not noticed by the eye. You model just rotates, and voila same size.

Of course, we really ought to bring a very important point. In my model, the Earth is perfectly still, in my model units of size and distance are not that great. In your model, units of distance are enormous! And the Earth moves 66,600 mph on its orbit.  This means it actually should shift from the sun's position.

Now, if you were intellectually honest (I've long since stopped expecting that!) you could rightly claim that the Earth is usually around the same actual distance away from the sun. But then you're tricked into accepting that there is no reason the distance on FE should look different for the sun, given its much more reasonable size and distance values.

Otherwise, you claim that distance matters.  Okay then, 66600 mph over the course of a day is 1,598,400 miles of movement in a single day. Distance matters? The RE sun should appear to shrink.



I never was great at chess, but I think this queen goes here?

Have I proved beyond the shadow a doubt that FE is right?
No, that was not my intention either. But it is clearly no less valid, by your own logic.
That's enough for me.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2025, 06:15:38 PM by bulmabriefs144 »
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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1177 on: May 20, 2025, 06:35:15 PM »

I am well aware what the blue line is, having after all drawn it.


I’m not redefining anything..

The sun on a flat earth model for someone in Ohio requires the sun to drastically change apparent size through the day.

Bulma.  Your model makes no sense for what is actually witnessed hour by hour for the sun for a person in Ohio.  Flat earth fails to correctly model the sun from what is actually witnessed.

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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1178 on: May 20, 2025, 06:38:40 PM »
[
Have I proved beyond the shadow a doubt that FE is right?
No, that was not my intention either.

No.  You haven’t.  Especially when FE requires the sun to travel north / south for large areas when on the equinox the sun rises due east and sets due west for those areas.

FE fails to model what is witnessed. 


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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1179 on: May 20, 2025, 06:43:40 PM »



So anyway, this should look like lines of different lengths, and it should should appear to shrink, but it actually kinda sorta...


Bulma.  You’re literally lying about something right in a picture.  The sun on the flat earth has to change great distance as it travels past a person in Ohio.  The sun would have to greatly change apparent size.


For the 1100th time, the parabola represents the narrowing perspective of vanishing point.


If you want to invoke vanishing point for sunset, the sun needs to shrink all afternoon.

Bulma, I’m not redefining anything.  Just pointing out how you contradict yourself.

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bulmabriefs144

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1180 on: May 21, 2025, 03:55:26 AM »

I am well aware what the blue line is, having after all drawn it.


I’m not redefining anything..

The sun on a flat earth model for someone in Ohio requires the sun to drastically change apparent size through the day.

Bulma.  Your model makes no sense for what is actually witnessed hour by hour for the sun for a person in Ohio.  Flat earth fails to correctly model the sun from what is actually witnessed.

So you say.

But as someone who has witnessed the sun each hour in Virginia, where it is possible to watch the sun set over the ocean, the arrows you have drawn don't appear to represent any major change in distance. As mentioned above, this is simply lateral swing.

Your plane animation actually provides a perfect example. Only, we aren't looking at the plane. We're looking at the swing of the picture. Neither the mountains nor the trees change in any major size. Only the plane which you refuse the just look at from the side like a normal person.
The distance is only about 3000 miles from Venezuela to below Mexico.

Again. If distance matters, the swing of a RE as it rotates is...
(no that's bullshit)
AI just told me that it rotates 1037 miles at the equator. That's basing the value on the mph speed, but that's not the diameter of Earth or even the radius. That would be a day of only a few hours. Since the diameter of a sphere should also be the halfway point, this means

that a twelve hour day is 7900 miles at the narrowest point. At 39 north latitude (Ohio) it's a few miles wider. About 18. Since the length of days varies from 7-8 to about 18 hour long, that's basically a bit over 3950 miles to the shortest day  to about 11800 miles for the longest (non-24 hour) day.
This is before discussing rotation, just lateral swing as the RE rotates from sunrise to sunset. And RE really provides no explanation on why days should be longer or shorter given the same rotation. They just tilt the Earth on its side! This is patent nonsense! Given the same 180° of visible rotation, shouldn't day length be identical regardless of tilt? I couldn't even begin to understand the sort of extreme stupidity that makes people believe tilt affects the length of days. In a flat Earth, it's a simple matter of light having a radius.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2025, 04:01:43 AM by bulmabriefs144 »
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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1181 on: May 21, 2025, 04:10:11 AM »


I’m not redefining anything..



You’re derailing the thread with stupidity again.



For the 1100th time, the parabola represents the narrowing perspective of vanishing point.

As pointed out and is obvious.  Your representation of the sun’s path doesn’t explain actual hours of daylight witnessed.

Requires the sun to rise and set north / south for large areas of the globe where those areas witness a due east sunrise and a due west sunset.

The sun circling overhead to a person just beside the path would change distance greatly and thus apparent size like an airplane being watched by a spectator at the edge of a pylon race.

None of that has anything to do with sun size, in the same way as the swinging a door open or closed doesn't create the same noticeable distortion as for instance yanking a door off its hinges and throwing it 20 ft away.


Wrong.




The FE model, the sun would change distance from me in Ohio through the day. 

Where watching the sun in Ohio would be like watching an airplane from the infield of an airplane pylon race.



The sun on a flat earth model for someone in Ohio requires the sun to drastically change apparent size through the day.


That’s not redefining anything.  It’s pointing out how FE fails. 


For the 1100th time, the parabola represents the narrowing perspective of vanishing point.

If you think the sun “sets” in the flat earth model by involving vanishing point.  The sun would have to change apparent size through the day and shrink in apparent size all afternoon. 


If you want to invoke vanishing point for sunset, the sun needs to shrink all afternoon.

Bulma, I’m not redefining anything.  Just pointing out how you contradict yourself.


« Last Edit: May 21, 2025, 04:13:29 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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bulmabriefs144

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1182 on: May 21, 2025, 11:10:43 AM »
Quote
Derailing the thread again

No, I believe the thread is about sun impossible on a flat Earth. So you loudly proclaim that there is no possible way that the sun can work the way it does in your Podunk village in Ohio, and when I suggest that it can, you tell me that I'm derailing discussion.

What I think you mean by "derailing the thread" is that like a train on a certain track it was set on course to go to RE-ville, and it's off course from that goal because I decided to throw the switch. Well, I'm sorry, but life works that way sometimes. You can't get your way.  Sometimes the track you want to go to is actually a dead end.

Once again,

As your RE spins so the sun is no longer visible, length of days from 8 hours to 18 hours should be impossible. This is a sun impossible on a RE, as you need 180 degrees or so to reach the backside, and tilt doesn't make any difference in this. On a FE however, farther away from the center means shorter days up top, closer to the center means longer days up top. Did I get the radius of sunlight perfect? No, I didn't. But you get the idea.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2025, 11:22:20 AM by bulmabriefs144 »
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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1183 on: May 21, 2025, 11:42:28 AM »
Quote
Derailing the thread again


As your RE spins so the sun is no longer visible,



The sunsets and gets physically blocked from view by the curvature of the earth.  Like this..

Eric Dubay himself has a picture of the sun shrinking in places like the desert.



Funny.  This is time lapse of an actual sunset.




Which contradicts what you claim.





length of days from 8 hours to 18 hours should be impossible.



Depends on the time of year.

No, not impossible

The sun setting on a flat earth is impossible.

For Flat Earth, the sun is still literally in the line of sight.



There is nothing blocking the sun from view for the FE.




This is a sun impossible on a RE, as you need 180 degrees or so to reach the backside, and tilt doesn't make any difference in this.

You’re babbling again.

For the poles you can have 24 hours of light or darkness depending on the time of year.

And depending on the time of year and location on a spherical earth you can have anything in between.

And …

You’re derailing the thread with stupidity again.



For the 1100th time, the parabola represents the narrowing perspective of vanishing point.

As pointed out and is obvious.  Your representation of the sun’s path doesn’t explain actual hours of daylight witnessed.

Requires the sun to rise and set north / south for large areas of the globe where those areas witness a due east sunrise and a due west sunset.

The sun circling overhead to a person just beside the path would change distance greatly and thus apparent size like an airplane being watched by a spectator at the edge of a pylon race.

None of that has anything to do with sun size, in the same way as the swinging a door open or closed doesn't create the same noticeable distortion as for instance yanking a door off its hinges and throwing it 20 ft away.


Wrong.




The FE model, the sun would change distance from me in Ohio through the day. 

Where watching the sun in Ohio would be like watching an airplane from the infield of an airplane pylon race.



The sun on a flat earth model for someone in Ohio requires the sun to drastically change apparent size through the day.


That’s not redefining anything.  It’s pointing out how FE fails. 


For the 1100th time, the parabola represents the narrowing perspective of vanishing point.

If you think the sun “sets” in the flat earth model by involving vanishing point.  The sun would have to change apparent size through the day and shrink in apparent size all afternoon. 


If you want to invoke vanishing point for sunset, the sun needs to shrink all afternoon.

Bulma, I’m not redefining anything.  Just pointing out how you contradict yourself.






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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1184 on: May 21, 2025, 12:06:10 PM »

 I believe .

Bulma is totally ignoring FE is killed concerning the witnessed path of the sun.  And can only create the same nonsensical lies concerning the heliocentric model that Bulma has been totally corrected on repeatedly. 

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markjo

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1185 on: May 21, 2025, 12:39:29 PM »
Once again,

As your RE spins so the sun is no longer visible, length of days from 8 hours to 18 hours should be impossible.

That is unless you understand the consequences of a tilted axis, then you can get days from zero hours of daylight to 24 hours of daylight.  Cool, right?


This is a sun impossible on a RE, as you need 180 degrees or so to reach the backside, and tilt doesn't make any difference in this. On a FE however, farther away from the center means shorter days up top, closer to the center means longer days up top.
Except that you won’t ever get a 24 sun in the extreme southern latitudes, which has been observed by countless visitors, explorers and scientists who have been to Antarctica.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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JackBlack

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1186 on: May 21, 2025, 02:16:06 PM »
What you are doing however is exactly redefining things.
No, that is what YOU are trying to do.
We can see quite clearly that the lines are a different length, yet here you are lying to each other saying they are equal length, and then trying to save yourself saying you are aware they aren't.

To try to prop up your BS, you then say crap like this:

The plane in question is flying away while you look at it like so:
No, it isn't.
It is flying more like the bird you have drawn.
It is flying past the observer.

As this is at or approaching eye level, you will notice that these lines being *ahem* the same length, means that all points at a certain distance away are equidistant.
No, we wont, because we aren't morons.
We can see the line at the centre is much shorter than the distance from the observer to the green line at the middle is much shorter than at either side.

What you are trying to describe is a circle, centred on the observer.
That looks more like this:

That is what is required to keep it equidistant.
Lying wont change that.

Btw, in my very first geometry class, they taught us about equidistance.
And is that another class you failed?

If the bird is 25 ft in front of you, and has been moved 15 ft directly to the side, it is actually 25 ft plus the 15 ft, but your eyes don't accurately take that into account.
Pure BS.

You can only combine distances like that if you either have it all in a straight line, or you do the proper vector addition.
If it is 15 ft to the side and 25 ft to the front then it is sqrt(25^2+15^2) =~ 29 ft away.
And we see it as 25 ft away.

Your eyes are not the magic you want to pretend they are.
We see the object as it is 29 ft away.

Just how do you expect eyes to be so magical?
How do you expect them to magically know what way is "forwards" and what way is "sideways" to then magically change the angular size of the object from what it actually is?
Or do you think that turning your head will magically change the size of the object?

No, they are not lines of equal length, and no, your eyes will not treat them as that.
You are just so desperate and pathetic you need to resort to these quite obvious lies.

So anyway, this should look like lines of different lengths, and it should should appear to shrink
No, these ARE lines of different length, and as a result that means that if that model was correct, the sun MUST appear to shrink.

Just pathetically saying it doesn't, doesn't help you.
It just shows you know your model is pure BS and just aren't willing to admit it.

But in the same way as *ahem* your own RE works
No, it isn't.
As explained to you repeatedly.
For your delusional pile of garbage, you can have the sun 100 km above, or 100 km above a point 10 000 km away.
That is a massive change in distance.
If we take the 100 km as the baseline, that distance grows to 10 000 %.
That would result in a massive change in the apparent size of the sun.

For the RE model you instead have a change of less than 14 000 km (assuming you could see straight through Earth) out of 150 000 000 km, that is a change of 0.009%.

So no, the 2 models are fundamentally different.

Your pathetic model relies upon just dismissing reality because it so easily shows it is wrong; just lying to everyone by saying the distance is the same, or that it magically acts as if it is, even though you can't explain what magic causes that.
Our model instead has the fact that the distance does not change by a significant amount relative to the overall distance.

This means it actually should shift from the sun's position.
No, it wouldn't. Yet again you just assert crap with no justification.
Again, what matters is the change in distance relative to the distance.

Changing 10 000 km relative to 100 km is a massive change.
Changing 14 000 km relative to 150 000 000 km is not.

And what makes this line of BS even more pathetic is now you are appealing to an orbit.
Moving any distance along a circular orbit will not cause a change in distance.

Now, if you were intellectually honest (I've long since stopped expecting that!)
There you go projecting again.
If I'm being intellectually honest I admit what I have already said.
The relative (i.e. %) change in distance to the sun in the FE model is massive meaning the angular size should change, while the RE model has a negligible change so their should be a negligible change in angular size.

But then you're tricked into accepting that there is no reason the distance on FE should look different for the sun, given its much more reasonable size and distance values.
Thanks for admitting that rather than even attempting to be honest, you are just trying to trick people.
That you appeal to large numbers as if that should make the model wrong, rather than any actual problem with the model.

Have I proved beyond the shadow a doubt that FE is right?
No. You haven't come close.
Instead you have entirely failed to even show the FE is possible, with it still remaining refuted and incapable of matching reality; at the same time you have failed to show any fault with the RE model.
Instead you have just shown you need to rely upon tricking people into thinking the FE model is correct.

But it is clearly no less valid, by your own logic.
No, it isn't. And you have even attempted to show that.
Instead you have attempted to trick people.
Using our logic, you need to relative size.

e.g. as a simple rule of thumb for distant objects, if you double the distance to it the angular size gets cut in half.
But notice that that doesn't matter what the actual distances are?
You can have a distance of 1 cm get doubled to 2 cm. Or you can have a distance of 100 000 000 km get doubled to 200 000 000 km.
The absolute change is not what is important, the relative change is.
And you have repeatedly avoided that. Likely because you know that if you did use that to approach the problem honestly it would show no problem with the RE model and a massive problem for your pile of garbage.

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JackBlack

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1187 on: May 21, 2025, 02:41:22 PM »
But as someone who has witnessed the sun each hour in Virginia, where it is possible to watch the sun set over the ocean, the arrows you have drawn don't appear to represent any major change in distance.
Notice how you appeal to an observation, to try to dismiss the facts of your model?
The honest conclusion here is that the model is wrong.
It is an incredibly dishonest and illogical conclusion to just falsely claim those arrows which are clearly a significantly different distance, are all magically the same.
We can directly measure them using the number of pixels.
The shortest is 117 px, straight down.
The longest (if we extend it to the blue circle) is 179 by 70 px.
Even the sideways part here is clearly longer than the first distance. But the total works out to be 192 px, or 164% of the original.
That is a change of 64%. By any sane standard, that is a clearly significant change.

We're looking at the swing of the picture. Neither the mountains nor the trees change in any major size.
Clearly demonstrating that the direction you are looking doesn't matter, and that there is no magical "frontal" vs "sideways" distance where your eyes magically ignore the sideways distance.
What this shows is that what actually matters is the distance to the object, and importantly, that is how it changes relative to the original distance.

AI just told me that it rotates 1037 miles at the equator. That's basing the value on the mph speed, but that's not the diameter of Earth or even the radius. That would be a day of only a few hours.
Yes, you are very good at failing at geometry.
When you are rotating about a circle, what matters is the circumference, not the radius or diameter.
That is because you are not going straight through Earth.
If you understood basic geometry you would know this.

And RE really provides no explanation on why days should be longer or shorter given the same rotation. They just tilt the Earth on its side! This is patent nonsense! Given the same 180° of visible rotation, shouldn't day length be identical regardless of tilt? I couldn't even begin to understand the sort of extreme stupidity that makes people believe tilt affects the length of days.
What you call that "extreme stupidity" sane people call intelligence and understanding.
Things you clearly lack.

Just consider the extreme of of your stupidity.
You are saying that if Earth was tilted by 90 degrees, so during the northern summer the north pole was directly facing the sun, that somehow rotating it about an axis passing through the north pole, would magically make it night.
That makes no sense at all.
Sane, intelligent people that understand the model instead recognise that in such a hypothetical case, no amount of rotation would make the sun set for the north pole. Instead what you need to do is move Earth along its orbit, so 1/4 of the way around, the north pole would now be facing 90 degrees away from the sun and be at sunset, then another 1/4 of the way around, the north pole would be facing away and have midnight.

Likewise, those sane, intelligent people who understand the model, understand that the tilt of Earth changes the position of the terminator line, meaning those in the region tilted towards the sun will have more than 12 hours while those in the region tilted away will have less.

It truly is quite simple, consider the image here:

We will have the sun off to the left, so the region of Earth illuminated is the left half.
The position of Earth there is so 0 degrees east is to the left and the north pole is near the top, and then the sun at the equator is visible from a region stretching from 90 degrees west to 90 degrees east.
If we don't have Earth tilted, so the axis of rotation is vertical, then the terminator is a line going from the north pole to the south pole remaining at 90 degrees west on one side, and 90 degrees east on the other.
That gives 12 hours of daylight, because that 12 hours of rotation would take a place which was at where 90 degrees west is in the diagram to where 90 degrees east is.
The other way of thinking about it is you have 180 degrees illuminated at that latitude.

But if you then tilt it so the north pole is pointing somewhat towards the sun, so the axis is now the diagonal line passing through the centre, we see that now the northern hemisphere has the terminator further west than 90 degrees and further east than 90 degrees.
So it covers more than 180 degrees, so it will take longer to go from sunrise to sunset.
Conversely, the southern hemisphere has the opposite effect, where the terminator is closer to 0 degrees, so less than 180 degrees is illuminated, so it will be less than 12 hours of daylight.

You can even set this up and test it yourself.
You just choose not to because it shows your model is wrong.

But because you can't show any actual problem with that, you just boldly proclaim it must be wrong and cannot possibly be right and that no matter the tilt you must have 12 hours of daylight and it is "extreme stupidity" to think otherwise.

But all you do with those claims is show your own extreme stupidity and/or dishonesty.

In a flat Earth, it's a simple matter of light having a radius.
No, it isn't. As clearly shown.
Your BS fails to provide 12 hours of daylight for the equator.
It fails to provide more daylight the further south you go during the southern summer.
It requires a clearly longer distance to magically be shorter.
It doesn't work at all.

But the RE model does.

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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1188 on: May 21, 2025, 03:04:29 PM »

Summer.




If we take two people with parabola’s on opposite sides of the summer path in your failed FE model, you don’t see the obvious additional flaws and failures?









Parabola.  Another epic Bulma failure that causes more failures than solving problems.  lol…



« Last Edit: May 21, 2025, 05:31:13 PM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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bulmabriefs144

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1189 on: May 22, 2025, 05:41:27 AM »
Yet another fail by you to run a responsible experiment.

Did I ever compare these to two nearby mirrors?

If you want to do this correctly, you will need: three glass domes that can fit inside each other (for this experiment, you will not be doing that), flashlight, and recorder (preferably inside the dome).

The reason you won't be sticking them inside each other is that two bits of glass will reverse each other, in all likelihood. We are only testing the expanding region, correct?

Or are you testing the sunrise over both east and west  hemispheres? Because if you are, I can already tell you that your sloppy method will not show anything accurate. As you swing the flashlight fully around the outside of the mirrored  surface, it will show two upside down suns. If you wanted to make two right side up suns, you would have to to give up the mirrored surfaces entirely. The motion you'd need is not consistent with the test. More like >< than <>. To get results with your domes accurate to what is seen by the observer, you will need to do two parallel lines going in opposite directions. A wide circle will not cut it.

====( : )====

Like that. Or you could do two domes side by side. The point is, your sloppy tests don't work for proving the RE or FE.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2025, 06:10:58 AM by bulmabriefs144 »
If ρ=m/V, then B=ρsurfobj


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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1190 on: May 22, 2025, 05:50:51 AM »
Yet another fail by you to run a responsible experiment.



Your BS is totally debunked.


Summer.




If we take two people with parabola’s on opposite sides of the summer path in your failed FE model, you don’t see the obvious additional flaws and failures?  The sun would have to be seen in vastly different sizes by viewers through the world. 









The sun would travel in other directions than relative west.

Parabola.  Another epic Bulma failure that causes more failures than solving problems.  lol…





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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1191 on: May 22, 2025, 05:59:04 AM »

Did I ever compare these to two nearby mirrors?



I didn’t use “mirrors”.  Used two glass bowls side by side with looking up into the mouth of the bowl, the open part.

Wgere there is no evidence of any domes in the first place that would cause crazy reflections.  To the way it would pick up on radar surveys of the sky.   Bulma.  Your BS is dead on arrival. 

What happens if you project on a dome with some “space dust” floating around….

For an angle close to sunrise or sunset.



(The little white lights on the dome are from two separate light bulbs illuminating a china cabinet about 4 feet away. And a single light bulb lamp in the living room about 18 feet away. Three lights making about 5 to 7 reflections in the “dome”?)


From inside the “dome”




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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1192 on: May 22, 2025, 06:04:35 AM »

The reason you won't be sticking them inside each other is that two bits of glass will reverse each other, in all likelihood. We are only testing the expanding region, correct?



One, I used glass bowls.




To simulate two personal parabolas straddling the summer path.




Where the domes still cause weird reflections.

Where, no matter the domes as long as each person has the same number, the “sun” is going to curve away in opposite directions for each person on opposite sides of the sun’s path.








The sun would travel in other directions than relative west.

Parabola.  Another epic Bulma failure that causes more failures than solving problems.  lol…









« Last Edit: May 22, 2025, 06:06:37 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1193 on: May 22, 2025, 06:08:53 AM »

Or are you testing the sunrise over both east and west  hemispheres?

Can you read Bulma?

I posted exactly what the set up was.

If we take two people with parabola’s on opposite sides of the summer path in your failed FE model, you don’t see the obvious additional flaws and failures?  The sun would have to be seen in vastly different sizes by viewers through the world. 






The sun would travel in other directions than relative west.

Parabola.  Another epic Bulma failure that causes more failures than solving problems.  lol…







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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1194 on: May 22, 2025, 06:18:12 AM »
Yet

Bulma.  For the exercise that clearly demonstrates what would happen as the sun made its path between to people and their supposed parabolas during their day; your going to lie, lie about what the simulation models, and try to redefine it into something it clearly isn’t.

Bulma.  Your model fails to predict what is witnessed in reality, doesn’t work, fails to explain actual areas of sunlight, the sun would have to appear different sizes throughout the world changing apparent size hour by hour, and still doesn’t explain sunset. 

For Flat Earth, the sun is still literally in the line of sight.



There is nothing blocking the sun from view.  Your parabola is stupid.



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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1195 on: May 22, 2025, 08:08:04 AM »

The reason you won't be sticking them inside each other is that two bits of glass will reverse each other,

If the light is just passing through the “parabola” acting like a conduit, why would it reverse?

Especially if you posted..

Did I ever compare these to two nearby mirrors?


Anyway.  Clear glass bowls covered with larger glass bowls representing a person on each side of the summer path of the sun.



The “image” of the light “stuck” in the glass acting like a conduit is forced to follow the conduit.  But passing the light through one glass bowl acting as a dome to the next glass doesn’t magically make the light change direction in the glass acting as a conduit.  “Lens” flare and the reflection on the opposite side of the bowls that is visible acted in the opposite direction.  But the direct imagines in the multiple domes acting as conduits still followed the path of the light. 
« Last Edit: May 22, 2025, 08:12:20 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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bulmabriefs144

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1196 on: May 22, 2025, 05:22:50 PM »
Yes, if the parabola were a literal glass dome, you might be right.

But I was using the mirrored surface of these glass domes only as an understanding aid. Clearly it isn't helping you out.

The parabola is just as real as the vanishing point, which is to say that it's an expression of perceived reality. No, there isn't a mirror that literally bounces light off.  Though sometimes you get stuff like Fata Morgana and mirages.

So what do we know about this parabola? Well, let's start with the vanishing point, and maybe it will help you understand.


Now, vanishing point is about convergence of three-dimensional objects into two-dimensional space then one-dimensional space (a point is one dimension, a line is two dimensions).  The parabola on the other hand, is about convergence of directions. That is to say that if the sun at its zenith is directly above us, then it can be said to be neither east or west, nor is it south or north.


So, we can find out the shape of this parabola with a number of clues (which is good, because we can't see it directly).

1. A circle is a straight line in all directions. That is, if you were to get on an island surrounded by ocean in every direction, not only would it creep you out, but you'd be able to see a circle of ocean horizon. As it is, we can confirm the horizon is a line in every direction that connects back to its starting point (a circle, confirmed)
2. We can then show from horizon to the observer and then from the observer looking straight up to the zenith of the sky is 90 degrees (sky, confirmed)
3. Because perspective does not have hard edges, it doesn't appear to be a cube, trapezoid, or parallelogram, so we can stick to dome, cone, or cylinder shapes.
4. But we can quickly rule out a cylinder because a cylinder by the definitions of geometry consists of stacked circles of equal length and width, and this is not how objects appear, flying overhead.  The closer a plane or hot air balloon gets to the onlooker, the higher its angle. In fact, it is possible for objects to appear to fly higher than the sun from ground level.
5. We can also rule out a cone, as we should appear to see a vanishing point at the zenith if this were the case. So the shape of perspective is a dome.  Is the sky an actual dome? For all I know, it might be flat... like the Earth. But it appears as such locally.

Like the vanishing point, it's effectively only measures by the relationship of real objects. What this means is that when two parabolas overlap (e.g. two people stand two hundred feet apart opposite a street, the relational nature of perspective means that if a car passes between them, one sees a car to the left and one to the right. However, before you start pointing to this:

what I mean by real objects is that objects enter into the field of sight, whereas objects like the sun/moon/stars simply appear to move across the field of sight. Moving to the topic of the picture you posted, no matter what latitude you are, objects in the same longitude always appear relationally the same. That is to say, a person in Russia, China, New Zealand, and Australia, might see effectively the sun in the same position in the sky (assuming time zones aren't wrong for that region). 

They won't see the sun north in on place and south in another, there won't be a distinction between rise and set directions. You see effectively this:



  • If you're facing north, the sun moving east to west means a right to left perspective.
  • If you're facing south, the sun appears to go left to right.
  • If you're facing west, the sun appears to go behind to in front of you.
  • If you're facing east, the sun appears to go in front to behind you.
  • No matter what direction you face, the sun moves toward then away from center
  • And unlike real objects (e.g. a car) it is centered around you, rather than around a position. 

It was possible to determine the equator and tropics only by discovering day lengths. There weren't any positional clues, as you are fully capable of viewing the sun from north or south from anywhere on Earth.

Bottom line, the picture of light moving between two glass domes is completely wrong. The two domes would appear south (?) of both domes at all times, and move east to west on both.  And no, you probably cannot test this by using a bigger flashlight. Sorry.

Meanwhile, RE diagrams of this have the sun appearing to go underground. I kid you not.

« Last Edit: May 22, 2025, 05:24:33 PM by bulmabriefs144 »
If ρ=m/V, then B=ρsurfobj


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markjo

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1197 on: May 22, 2025, 05:44:04 PM »
Now, vanishing point is about convergence of three-dimensional objects into two-dimensional space then one-dimensional space (a point is one dimension, a line is two dimensions). 
FFS!!  Do you know anything about anything?  ::)
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
Quote from: Robosteve
Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
Quote from: bullhorn
It is just the way it is, you understanding it doesn't concern me.

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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1198 on: May 22, 2025, 06:04:44 PM »
Yes, if the parabola were a literal glass dome, you might be right.



A bunch of stupid crap.

How about you actually understand what was posted.


Yet another fail by you to run a responsible experiment.



Your BS is totally debunked.


Summer.




If we take two people with parabola’s on opposite sides of the summer path in your failed FE model, you don’t see the obvious additional flaws and failures?  The sun would have to be seen in vastly different sizes by viewers through the world. 









The sun would travel in other directions than relative west.

Parabola.  Another epic Bulma failure that causes more failures than solving problems.  lol…


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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Pics of Another Sunrise Impossible on Flat Earth
« Reply #1199 on: May 22, 2025, 06:12:09 PM »

  • If you're facing north, the sun moving east to west means a right to left perspective.
Which has nothing to de with the equinox where the sun rises due east and sets due west.  On a flat earth the sun would have to travel  north / south and all manner of directions like an airplane circling in a pylon race.  Where the sun would have to be all different sizes being at different distances for each viewer on earth hour by hour.  Where FE doesn’t model what is witnessed in reality, the sun staying the same apparent size for all viewers.

Bulma, your model doesn’t even explain the amount of actual hours of sunlight witnessed from hour to hour.

Bulma.  FE totally fails to model reality.  FE fails. 

For Flat Earth, the sun is still literally in the line of sight.



There is nothing blocking the sun from view.  Your parabola is stupid.