Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth in a flat plane

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Note.   Since the site let me.  Changed title to eliminate confusion over trying to keep title information but short.



So.  In the context what is common sense in knowing something is real vs when science is needed.  I thought about sunsets.

To me.  It’s obvious the sun sets. It becomes physical blocked from view because it goes relatively below the horizon.  The science part is needed to prove if the earth rotates about it axis as it orbits about the sun. Or does the sun circle around a stationary earth.

Then I started to wonder how this idea come about the sun is always above the earth?

From my limited knowledge.  I believe some religions and ancient cultures believed the sun disappeared or was physical engulfed by the underworld? 

Anyway.  The point being many religions/cultures believe the sun was lowered or veiled from view in trying to explain where it is clearly witnessed the sun is physically blocked from view.  It’s light and radiance physical shielded from the earth. 

So I started looking up Hebrew astronomy.  I found this.  Not sure how “mainstream” it was back in the day.  It could be like an internet archeologist digging through internet archives 300 years in the future looking up 9/11 and believing the mainstream belief was the WTC was brought down by controlled demolition. Just from the shear number of videos and webpages.  Why are the extremes always more likely to creat a website or YouTube video.  Anyway.  I digress.


Here is a condense version of what I found concerning the sun and Hebrew astronomy.

Quote

The Days of the Sun.
The sun ascends by means of 366 steps, and descends by 183 in the east and 183 in the west. There are 366 windows in the firmament, through which the sun successively emerges and retires. These windows are arranged so as to regulate the sun's movements with a view to their concordance with the "teḳufot," Nisan, Tammuz, and Ṭebet. The sun bows down before God and declares its obedience to His commands (Pirḳe R. El. ). Three letters of God's name are written on the sun's heart; and angels lead it—one set by day, and another by night (ib.). The sun rides in a chariot (ib.). When looking downward its face and horns are of fire; when turned upward, of hail. If the sun did not periodically change its face, so that heat and cold alternate, the earth would perish (ib.).

https://www.studylight.org/encyclopedias/eng/tje/s/sun.html

So. One school of thought that seemed most prevalent? And Hebrew astronomy should be the roots of Christian fundamentalist beliefs? Was the sun raised and lowered by steps?  And winks in and out of view by windows in the firmament?  But turns it face? 

I am just baffled by where the idea comes from the sun is always above the earth where it never rises and sets in anyway.  With nothing to account for why its light and radiance are blocked.  (In modern terms, where it’s heat and solar radiation like X-rays are blocked from detection by modern instruments).

I keep thinking some FE’er will post the sun has a hood of some sort.  By that doesn’t seem very well embraced.  The whole perspective thing seems to be the leading explanation here?  On this website. 

So.  Why do modern FE’s embrace the sun never lowers in anyway and is never blocked by the earth in anyway?  They refer to the firmament from ancient texts. But seems to totally ignore the sun in relation to the firmament.  And the old beliefs why the sunsets? 
« Last Edit: March 01, 2023, 03:45:11 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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Kami

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Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2023, 09:18:33 AM »
I think FE invokes the sun that circles above the plain in order to explain time zones, as otherwise at some point it would need to be night everywhere, which is obviously not the case

Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2023, 12:01:47 PM »
Reading up on Claudius Ptolemaeus and trying to find out what his work the Almagest entails. 100AD to 170 AD

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocentric_model#Ptolemaic_model

The individual seems to have heavily influenced Hebrew Astronomy and most astronomers of that period.

The individual published the earth was spherical?


Quote
Ptolemy: Almagest

https://bertie.ccsu.edu/naturesci/cosmology/ptolemy.html

And so, in general, we have to state that the heavens are spherical and move spherically; that the earth, in figure, is sensibly spherical also when taken as a whole; in position, lies right in the middle of the heavens, like a geometrical centre; in magnitude and distance, has the ratio of a point with respect to the sphere of the fixed stars, having itself no local motion at all. And we shall go through each of these points briefly to bring them to mind.



And the sun raised and set on a spherical orb?

Quote
Ptolemy: Almagest

https://bertie.ccsu.edu/naturesci/cosmology/ptolemy.html

3. That the Heavens Move Spherically

It is probable the first notions of these things came to the ancients from some such observation as this. For they kept seeing the sun and moon and other stars always moving from rising to setting in parallel circles, beginning to move upward from below as if out of the earth itself, rising little by little to the top, and then coming around again and going down in the same way until at last they would disappear as if falling into the earth. And then again they would see them, after remaining some time invisible, rising and setting as if from another beginning; and they saw that the times and also the places of rising and setting generally corresponded in an ordered and regular way.



I’m I reading this wrong?  The solar system was spherical and allowed for items to rise and set?  Not trapped on a flat plane? 


What is this obsession with a flat earth?  And a sun always above the flat earth trapped in a flat plane.

I guess like Kami presented, FE’ers had to spit ball to make something work? 


« Last Edit: February 21, 2023, 12:05:09 PM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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Kami

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Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2023, 02:56:35 PM »
[...] FE’ers had to spit ball to make something work?
This is a universally true statement.

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Stash

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Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2023, 06:53:13 PM »
It's kind of hard to figure out why and how certain things arrived into the thinking. If I were to hazard a guess I would say regarding modern FE...

- Having the sun actually set below the horizon gets FE into the Kami jam: The sun is below the flat earth, it is dark for everyone until it pops up on the other side - So they ditched that and needed something better: Circling overhead
- Having a sun circle overhead allows for it to cater to different FE beliefs of whether there isn't a dome or there is a dome and you get the circling below, above or in the firmament. Kind of pleases all FEr's, Domers/No-Domers
- Having a hovering, circling spotlight sun kinda gets them out of the Kami jam again of timezones, day/night and such. Emphasis on "kinda"
- Perpetually hung up on the north pole-centered AE globe projection as a model (UN logo) - Using such has the sun circling between the tropics. Kinda convenient for FE aside from the fact they are essentially using a globe for a model, which I always find hilariously ironic.
- And then all kinds of gymnastics must be performed to answer why the sun really doesn't set but circles; perspective, bendy light, aforementioned spotlight, etc., none of which seem satisfactory, relavent, or realistic, but circling overhead is pretty much the only solution for FE.

At the end of the day, it's a whack-a-mole problem. And even though the answer for one aspect of the circling leads to another issue popping up; day/night, timezones, equinoxes/solstices, eclipses, moon phases, each have their shared and individual problems with a circling sun. A circling overhead sun is the only construct that can come close to reality even though that closeness is really, really far away.

Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2023, 07:06:28 PM »
@ Stash

I appreciate what you posted.  And I’m not asking you to defend FE. 

After watching a few sunsets and sunrises in my life.  I just find it hard anyone watching the same thing with any honesty could think the sun is anyways circling overhead.  Always staying overhead, and never lower or raising relative to a viewer’s position.

But I also never would have thought a person would confuse sound waves with radio waves.  Or a person would have to act like the bulk of knowledge has no understanding of what comets are. And willfully lying to cover up the ignorance? 

« Last Edit: February 21, 2023, 07:08:56 PM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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Stash

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Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2023, 07:15:33 PM »
@ Stash

I appreciate what you posted.  And I’m not asking you to defend FE. 

I'm not sure how you even remotely interpreted what I wrote as a defense of FE.

Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2023, 01:10:14 AM »
@ Stash

I appreciate what you posted.  And I’m not asking you to defend FE. 

I'm not sure how you even remotely interpreted what I wrote as a defense of FE.

Just showing I understand you ponder at the thinking of FE’s too. 

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Stash

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Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2023, 03:11:14 AM »
@ Stash

I appreciate what you posted.  And I’m not asking you to defend FE. 

I'm not sure how you even remotely interpreted what I wrote as a defense of FE.

Just showing I understand you ponder at the thinking of FE’s too.

I see. Yes, one must ponder the origins of an alternate belief system to determine whether it has any validity or not.

Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2023, 04:45:41 AM »
Been reading through this crap storm, ZETETIC ASTRONOMY.


Here’s one example.
Quote

ZETETIC ASTRONOMY.

http://iapsop.com/ssoc/1865__rowbotham___zetetic_astronomy.pdf

I:t is commonly believed that surveyors when laying out railways and canals, are obliged to allow 8 inches per mile for the Earth's curvature; and that if this were not done in the latter case the water would not be stationary, but would flow on until at the end of one mile in each direction, although the canal should have the same depth throughout, the surface would stand
8 inches higher in the middle than at the ends. In other words, that the bottom of a canal in which the allowance of 8 inches per mile had not been made, would be a chord to the surface of the contained water, which would be an arc · of a circle. To this it is replied, that both in
regard to railways and canals, wherever an allowance has been attempted the work has not been satisfactory;


Like typical “conspiracy” dribble, it ignores several factors and makes vague assertions. 

Makes the claim “wherever an allowance has been attempted the work has not been satisfactory;”. With out any real examples and context.

While totally ignoring how the spherical earth model works.  Like..

Equipotential: a Property of the Surface of Water

https://flatearth.ws/c/water




It is sad the author Samuel Rowbotham under the pen name Parallax hand waved aside centuries of the progression of observation and research.  Mostly ignores the bulk of actual astronomical history, and discovery.  And did not address the actual principles of spherical earth. And ignores factors like refraction, or have waves its effects.

It’s basically the 1800’s version of “but I have a YouTube video”. 


And if you read through Zetetic Astronomy, you can see how it influences how modern day FE’s argue.  It’s almost a textbook conspiracy argument.  Make assertions with no specific  examples.  Or use oversimplified examples. Just appeals of emotion.  Ignores the counter arguments or the reality of the current models as if they don’t exist.  And convey past research and its history as a lie.  Provide a “picture” with no actual explanation.  Just look and believe.  And provides an empowering of false authority because you can perceive the lies of what is established. 
« Last Edit: February 22, 2023, 04:49:25 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2023, 05:00:15 AM »
From the Zetetic Astronomy.  This is the great length the work covers what is pertinent to this thread.

Quote
THE SUN MOVES IN A CIRCLE OVER THE EARTH, CONCENTRIC WITH THE NORTH POLE.

As the ·:Earth has been shown to be fixed, the motion of the Sun is a visible reality ; and if it be observed from any northern latitude, and for any period before and after the time of southing, or passing the meridian, it will be seen to describe an arc of a circle ; an object moving in an arc cannot return to the centre of such arc without having completed a circle. This the Slm does visibly and daily. To place the matter beyond doubt, the observation of the Arctic navigators may be referred to. Captain Parry, and several of his officers, on ascending high land in the vicinity of the north pole, repeatedly saw, for 24 hours together, the sun describing a circle upon the southern horizon.

http://iapsop.com/ssoc/1865__rowbotham___zetetic_astronomy.pdf

So. The author basically spends large amount of time and energy using misguided arguments to try to convince you the earth is flat. 

Then instead of using actual collected data to determine the true motion of the sun.  The author just states the earth is flat, so the sun must circle overhead. 


Then this is the title of the next section, “THE DIAMETER OF THE SUN'S PATH IS CONSTANTLY CHANGING -DIMINISHING FROM DECEMBER 2lsT TO JUNE l5TH, AND ENLARGING FROM JUNE TO DECEMBER”
« Last Edit: February 22, 2023, 05:03:04 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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ecco

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Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2023, 10:22:33 AM »
Been reading through this crap storm, ZETETIC ASTRONOMY.

 

It's a money-maker for the writers.  Here is a partial review from one of the suckers:

Quote
This work is very important to understand, I believe in a biblical earth the way my creator designed it to be, apart from all the refuting of pseudo science in this book, the most important part to grasp is the bible has been saying where we live, and science has really come up with some abstract stuff to keep us from looking up and observing that just beyond that veil (firmament) is a whole different thing, than millions upon millions of miles of empty space, and we are traveling 63,000 MPH through this vast openness, not to mention traveling on an elliptical course around a star 95 million miles away, and that gravity keeps us on that course.

Flat Earthers are Bible totin' Creationists who don't mind spending money to jump on any bandwagon that supports their fantasies.

Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2023, 11:00:23 AM »
Been going over wiki and and the flat earth wiki on Samuel Rowbotham.

Somethings skipped over on the flat earth wiki?


Quote

In 1861 when he was 46, Rowbotham married a 15 year old girl (with whom he was living at the time of the marriage) and settled in London, producing 15 known children, of whom only four survived. He was named in numerous cases of wrongful deaths, including a "death by misadventure" for accidentally poisoning one of his own children. He was named responsible for other deaths using his quack cures of phosphorus. He was also alleged to be using the name "Dr. Samuel Birley", living in a beautiful 12-roomed house, selling the secrets for prolonging human life and curing every disease imaginable.[6] Augustus De Morgan refers to him as S. Goulden.[3] He patented a number of inventions, including a "life-preserving cylindrical railway carriage". He is not known to have held any medical degrees and his professions are named at different times "chemist, physician, journalist, soap boiler".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Rowbotham


I haven’t seen where his work was in anyway to promote god.  It seems he just didn’t discount religious connections if it benefited his self promotion.

I found this odd?

Quote
In the United States, Rowbotham's ideas were taken up by the Christian Catholic Apostolic Church and promoted[when?] widely on their radio station.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Rowbotham


The wiki article goes on to mention William Carpenter and the work “A hundred proofs the Earth is not a Globe in 1885.”

So a FE writing up proofs is more tradition than anything.  Amazing how cons learn from cons. 

Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2023, 11:18:46 AM »
So.  There is Hebrew Astronomy where it tries to explain how the sun rises and sets. 

Then the progression to Ptolemaic model in the Almagest.  The earth is spherical.  With a sun that sets.

Then the model of the solar system is refined and changes over to the heliocentric model.


Then in 1864 Rowbotham under the name Parallax writes Zetetic Astronomy because he doesn’t understand gravity, perspective, and how drainage ditches works.  Throws out all data concerning sun sunrises and sunsets.  Promotes the earth is flat with a sun that stays a fixed height above earth.  Only uses god as needed to self promote.  The con gets picked up and promoted by the Christian Catholic Apostolic Church.

And we are now stuck with people that think the earth is flat as described in Zetetic Astronomy, written by a self promoting con, somehow glorifies god.  And stuck with this argument of prospective supposedly making the sun set.  Throwing out all the observations the sun does indeed set by going relatively “below” the viewers position.  And the sun stays a constant height above the earth because some guy claimed the earth is flat based on misconceptions and lack of understanding drainage ditches. 

Oh boy…
« Last Edit: February 22, 2023, 11:21:49 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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Kami

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Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2023, 07:58:04 PM »
- Perpetually hung up on the north pole-centered AE globe projection as a model (UN logo) - Using such has the sun circling between the tropics. Kinda convenient for FE aside from the fact they are essentially using a globe for a model, which I always find hilariously ironic.
You are right, that is hilarious. In general, many FE defenders seem to have no problem accepting quite abstract science (temperature of higher atmosphere layers, van allen belts, ...), just as soon as something directly contradicts their ... khm ... 'models', it is obviously wrong/paid for/...

Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2023, 04:09:12 AM »

Quote
selling the secrets for prolonging human life and curing every disease imaginable.
Just not for his eleven dead children.
"I'm not entirely sure who this guy is, but JimmyTheLobster is clearly a genius.  Probably one of the smartest arthropods  of his generation." - JimmyTheCrab

Quote from: bulmabriefs144
The woke left have tried to erase photosynthesis

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Slemon

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Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2023, 05:37:25 AM »
And we are now stuck with people that think the earth is flat as described in Zetetic Astronomy, written by a self promoting con, somehow glorifies god.
Not really accurate. The admin here is more likely to talk about Leo Ferrari than Rowbotham or Carpenter, and biblical literalists are a subset rather than the whole but they tend to appeal to sources from way before Rowbotham. Then you get ones like Dubay that are virulently anti-Christian. There can be spiritual components, which honestly seems more marketing than anything, but even there the focus tends to be more on an eastern notion of Truth than a western one of God.
Over-simplifying groups just means missing important details.

But yeah, like Stash said, the claim that the Sun is always above the Earth just results from trying to justify why it is always in view somewhere. Historically, if people did not have that knowledge, they'd believe the Sun went out of view. These days, the Sun must necessarily be above some portion of the Earth's surface - easy on a round earth, while on a flat requires the Sun to be above and some explanation for sunsets to be proposed.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

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Stash

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Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2023, 01:23:56 PM »
To Slime's point, Rowbotham is more of the other society thing. Not so much here. But yes, Rowbotham and his ENAG is extremely hinged on scriptural stuff. One needs to look no further than his chapter, "Condition; and Approaching Destruction by Fire" and especially, the last chapter, "Chapter XV. General Summary--Application--Cui Bono" which he cleverly left to the end so as to make all the previous chapters appear "scientific".

As for Ferrari, he was a philosopher. Though his FE stuff was parody, it wasn't necessarily to make fun of FE. More to get people to think, rather than just knee-jerk oppose something without knowledge.

Back to Rowbotham et al., a great read is 'The Plane Truth' by Bob Schadewald.
Schadewald wrote about FE, the folks involved, and the history quite extensively, culminating in the aforementioned book. It's really interesting. You should check it out. It's really comprehensive and along with ENAG, I would consider it required reading.

All of which helps to understand why certain FE explanations had to be devised to support an FE POV.

Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2023, 04:35:11 AM »

Not really accurate. The admin here is more likely to talk about Leo Ferrari than Rowbotham or Carpenter,

In the context of this thread.

Can you cite the model Ferrari has proposed for the orbit of the sun?  And how it contradicts Rowbotham?

Quote
Dr. Ferrari took a very post-modern approach to the Flat Earth Theory, proposing to overturn the authority of scientists and instead rely on one's own perception of the Earth's shape. He argued that no authority can deterministically claim what is and isn't true,

https://wiki.tfes.org/Leo_Ferrari

Anyway.  I can view the solar system as a large machine. And how a machine works and doesn’t work can very well be defined and documented. 


Like the sun is a major energy source that drives weather on planets.  The earth’s moon doesn’t provide the same influence throughout the solar system. 

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Slemon

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Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2023, 05:09:39 AM »

Not really accurate. The admin here is more likely to talk about Leo Ferrari than Rowbotham or Carpenter,

In the context of this thread.

Can you cite the model Ferrari has proposed for the orbit of the sun?  And how it contradicts Rowbotham?
Ferrari, no idea. You keep trying to ask FEers to provide the authority they blindly accept when that often isn't the case. Davis's model, meanwhile, is that the Sun travels in a straight line through non-Euclidean space (or at least that's my recollection the last time it was talked about). The dimensions are thoroughly different to Rowbotham too.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2023, 05:51:26 AM »

Not really accurate. The admin here is more likely to talk about Leo Ferrari than Rowbotham or Carpenter,

In the context of this thread.

Can you cite the model Ferrari has proposed for the orbit of the sun?  And how it contradicts Rowbotham?
Ferrari, no idea. You keep trying to ask FEers to provide the authority they blindly accept when that often isn't the case. Davis's model, meanwhile, is that the Sun travels in a straight line through non-Euclidean space (or at least that's my recollection the last time it was talked about). The dimensions are thoroughly different to Rowbotham too.


In the context a person can trace and see how ideas concerning the solar system evolved to earth orbiting the sun in the heliocentric model based on observations and measurement

Do you have anything to post in regards of “Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?”

If the most accepted model by the FE community is not the sun circling overhead, please cite a source.  And explain. 


Added. I’m not very interested in FE’s where they treat FE as a philosophical problem.  And they don’t put much effort in a working model.  I’m interested in the actual mechanics of this world.  And how to physically navigate the world /solar system.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2023, 05:55:48 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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Slemon

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Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2023, 06:06:44 AM »
In the context a person can trace and see how ideas concerning the solar system evolved to earth orbiting the sun in the heliocentric based on observations and measurement

Do you have anything to post in regards of “Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?”
That's what I've been doing. You don't need to make everything a fight.
The Sun is always overhead somewhere on the Earth. As far as the development of the FE view goes, it was the discovery of that which shaped things - historically, people in the ancient world didn't have access to information from other continents, nor was it widely known who, if anyone, had circumnavigated the world. The idea that night meant the Sun being completely absent from the sky/below the Earth was a coherent one.
Nowadays, we know that the Sun is always shining somewhere. International travel is more common than it ever was. As a result, no one can hold to the idea that the Sun is out of view everywhere. It's not an idea that goes back to any single thinker - maybe there was a first person to note it, but that's not particularly significant. The idea that the Sun is always above the Earth comes from observations made of the world.

The precise nature of the Sun's path is going to depend on the FEer - Davis's non-Euclidean, bipolar models, typical azimuthal projection models, dome-reflection models, and you might find Sandokhan's interesting as his (if memory serves) does make mention of the Sun travelling through gates/windows in the dome.
But the origin of the idea of the Sun being always above the Earth is not ancient mythology, nor does ancient Hebrew astronomy mean all that much to probably the majority of modern FEers. If you want to trace the idea back, you stop at the observation, going back millenia is wholly unnecessary.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2023, 06:20:40 AM »
If you want to trace the idea back, you stop at the observation, going back millenia is wholly unnecessary.

That’s one of the points.  You can trace the evolution of the heliocentric model. And why. 

The FE models always seems ad hoc out of the needs of whatever FE comes along.  No matter the FE’er, it comes down to their new myth which isn’t much different than the reasoning of Hebrew astronomers.



« Last Edit: February 27, 2023, 06:22:53 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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Slemon

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Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2023, 06:43:33 AM »
If you want to trace the idea back, you stop at the observation, going back millenia is wholly unnecessary.

That’s one of the points.  You can trace the evolution of the heliocentric model. And why. 

The FE models always seems ad hoc out of the needs of whatever FE comes along.  No matter the FE’er, it comes down to their new myth which isn’t much different than the reasoning of Hebrew astronomers.
Tracing evolution and tracing the origin of ideas are different things. Every model in every area of science has developed over the centuries. Once flat earth had the sun going below the world, once a round earth was geocentric, then we learned - every idea is ultimately rooted in some observation. Intentionally bad faith readings help no one.
Do you think it is an unreasonable conclusion to say that the Sun is always visible somewhere?
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2023, 06:55:07 AM »

 Every model in every area of science has developed over the centuries.

Any proof the current most recent accepted main stream view of the FE sun was developed over centuries. Vs just a current ad hoc mythology/fad? 

Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2023, 06:56:46 AM »


Do you think it is an unreasonable conclusion to say that the Sun is always visible somewhere?

Based on the context of belief and history.  Which civilization was able to determine this and why? 

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Slemon

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Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2023, 07:10:06 AM »

 Every model in every area of science has developed over the centuries.

Any proof the current most recent accepted main stream view of the FE sun was developed over centuries. Vs just a current ad hoc mythology/fad? 
Is it the same as it was centuries ago? No. Therefore it has changed, ie developed.
There's probably not a throughline of some set of FE-adherents that existed as a subculture, but general knowledge has expanded to incorporate more and more things that FE has to explain. For example, historical FE models would not have included a conspiracy centred around space travel. Modern ones do. 'Current ad hoc fad' ultimately just turns into name-calling with no actual relevance to the question of where any element of the model came from.



Do you think it is an unreasonable conclusion to say that the Sun is always visible somewhere?

Based on the context of belief and history.  Which civilization was able to determine this and why?
No idea. Maybe came about after Magellan, at a guess. Does it matter? The fact is that in the modern day, with near-instantaneous communication with people around the world, we can be pretty damn sure that it's the case.
Again, is it an unreasonable conclusion to say that the Sun is always visible somewhere? Because if you can reasonable come to that conclusion, then the Sun always being above the Earth seems like it'd have a natural origin.
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2023, 07:42:27 AM »


Because if you can reasonable come to that conclusion, then the Sun always being above the Earth seems like it'd have a natural origin.



So.  Can you cite before the Almagest ( around 100 AD) , or after, a centuries old model the sun is supposedly anyways relatively above a relative spot on the earth. As in the sun no matter where its in its circuit stays a certain height above that spot. 

Vs in the Almagest the earth is thought to be spherical.  With a sun in a sphere that rotates about the earth.  Where the sun does relatively rise above a specific location. Then set below that location so the sun ends up being below that location in its travel.

Being around the earth is not the same as always being stuck in a plane above the earth. 

Or have you just confirmed most modern FE models are myths created in the last 150 years by FE personalities on an ad hoc bases to target a specific group who think the heliocentric model is a lie?   
« Last Edit: February 27, 2023, 07:53:22 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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Slemon

  • Flat Earth Researcher
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Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2023, 08:15:49 AM »
So.  Can you cite before the Almagest ( around 100 AD) , or after, a centuries old model the sun is supposedly anyways relatively above a relative spot on the earth. As in the sun no matter where its in its circuit stays a certain height above that spot. 

Vs in the Almagest the earth is thought to be spherical.  With a sun in a sphere that rotates about the earth.  Where the sun does relatively rise above a specific location. Then set below that location so the sun ends up being below that location in its travel.

Being around the earth is not the same as always being stuck in a plane above the earth. 

Or have you just confirmed most modern FE models are myths created in the last 150 years by FE personalities on an ad hoc bases to target a specific group who think the heliocentric model is a lie?
Have you heard of a false dichotomy?

What exactly is your issue here? The fact that FE models today are not carbon copies of models in the era where people thought the stars were literally gods and if you dug down far enough you'd find the underworld?
We know more than we did then. Any model, regardless of its veracity, would necessarily need to account for more. One such element known now, and not then, is the fact that the Sun is always visible. Should that just go ignored by FEers?
We all know deep in our hearts that Jane is the last face we'll see before we're choked to death!

Re: Where did the idea come from the sun is always above the earth?
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2023, 08:20:26 AM »
So.  Can you cite before the Almagest ( around 100 AD) , or after, a centuries old model the sun is supposedly anyways relatively above a relative spot on the earth. As in the sun no matter where its in its circuit stays a certain height above that spot. 

Vs in the Almagest the earth is thought to be spherical.  With a sun in a sphere that rotates about the earth.  Where the sun does relatively rise above a specific location. Then set below that location so the sun ends up being below that location in its travel.

Being around the earth is not the same as always being stuck in a plane above the earth. 

Or have you just confirmed most modern FE models are myths created in the last 150 years by FE personalities on an ad hoc bases to target a specific group who think the heliocentric model is a lie?
Have you heard of a false dichotomy?

What exactly is your issue here? The fact that FE models today are not carbon copies of models in the era where people thought the stars were literally gods and if you dug down far enough you'd find the underworld?
We know more than we did then. Any model, regardless of its veracity, would necessarily need to account for more. One such element known now, and not then, is the fact that the Sun is always visible. Should that just go ignored by FEers?


I was pretty specific…

That’s one of the points.  You can trace the evolution of the heliocentric model. And why. 

The FE models always seems ad hoc out of the needs of whatever FE comes along.  No matter the FE’er, it comes down to their new myth which isn’t much different than the reasoning of Hebrew astronomers.


Most modern FE models are myths created in the last 150 years by FE personalities on an ad hoc bases to target a specific group who think the heliocentric model is a lie?