Globe earth Q&A

  • 60 Replies
  • 3955 Views
?

Kami

  • 1160
Globe earth Q&A
« on: February 16, 2023, 12:43:36 PM »
In my lurking I have found that a lot of arguments for FE stem from a misunderstanding of how the heliocentric globe model works. So, curious flat-earthers or people that are undecided, please feel free to ask any questions you have about the globe model here!

Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2023, 01:48:45 PM »
If the moon orbits the earth once a month, why is it visible at night for more than half the month?

?

Kami

  • 1160
Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2023, 06:57:55 PM »
If the moon orbits the earth once a month, why is it visible at night for more than half the month?
Let us look at one arbitrary single day, then we can assume that the moon does not move during that day (that is of course not entirely true, but good enough for now).
The earth rotates once around its axis in 24 hours, meaning that the moon is above the horizon for 12 hours, every single day. The chance that these 12 hours are exactly during daytime is pretty slim, meaning that most nights we can see the moon, but not for the full night.
But we can do better: The phases of the moon are determined by its orientation with respect to the sun, meaning that during a full moon the sun has to be more or less exactly 'opposite' of the moon. And indeed, during a full moon the moon rises pretty much exactly when the sun sets and vice versa. During a half moon the moon is exactly at his highest position either during sunrise or sunset (depending on whether it is waxing or waning), and you will see it for half the night (a waxing moon from sunset to the middle of the night, a waning moon from the middle of the night to sunrise).

Also, since the moon moves around the earth once in ~27 days, we can calculate: 360 degress / 27 gives you roughly 15 degrees. That means that, if you observe the moon at two consecutive nights at the exact same time (a minute or two won't make a difference) from the same spot, it will have moved by 15 degrees. Alternatively, the moon will be at the same spot in the sky roughly one hour later (360 degrees / 24 hours gives a bit more than 15 degrees per hour). Pick a spot where you can see the moon cross a landmark (vanish behind a tree, for example), record the time that happens. The next day, go out about 50 minutes later and go to the same spot, you will see the moon vanishing behind that same tree at that time!
If you want to bring a stopwatch let me know, then I will do the exact calculations, the ones here are very approximate, I am probably off by ~10 minutes or so.

Edit: Just noticed this is my 1000th post on this forum..  :o

Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2023, 08:40:15 PM »
If the moon orbits the earth once a month, why is it visible at night for more than half the month?
Let us look at one arbitrary single day, then we can assume that the moon does not move during that day (that is of course not entirely true, but good enough for now).
The earth rotates once around its axis in 24 hours, meaning that the moon is above the horizon for 12 hours, every single day. The chance that these 12 hours are exactly during daytime is pretty slim, meaning that most nights we can see the moon, but not for the full night.
But we can do better: The phases of the moon are determined by its orientation with respect to the sun, meaning that during a full moon the sun has to be more or less exactly 'opposite' of the moon. And indeed, during a full moon the moon rises pretty much exactly when the sun sets and vice versa. During a half moon the moon is exactly at his highest position either during sunrise or sunset (depending on whether it is waxing or waning), and you will see it for half the night (a waxing moon from sunset to the middle of the night, a waning moon from the middle of the night to sunrise).

Also, since the moon moves around the earth once in ~27 days, we can calculate: 360 degress / 27 gives you roughly 15 degrees. That means that, if you observe the moon at two consecutive nights at the exact same time (a minute or two won't make a difference) from the same spot, it will have moved by 15 degrees. Alternatively, the moon will be at the same spot in the sky roughly one hour later (360 degrees / 24 hours gives a bit more than 15 degrees per hour). Pick a spot where you can see the moon cross a landmark (vanish behind a tree, for example), record the time that happens. The next day, go out about 50 minutes later and go to the same spot, you will see the moon vanishing behind that same tree at that time!
If you want to bring a stopwatch let me know, then I will do the exact calculations, the ones here are very approximate, I am probably off by ~10 minutes or so.

Edit: Just noticed this is my 1000th post on this forum..  :o

tl;dr

Answer: If you define "night" as whenever the sun is below the horizon, then the ONLY time the moon isn't visible at night is when it's directly in line with the sun (new moon). Why you think its visibility is linked to only half its orbit is puzzling.

*

JackBlack

  • 21951
Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2023, 10:42:41 PM »
If the moon orbits the earth once a month, why is it visible at night for more than half the month?
Because it is visible for roughly 12 hours, because you see roughly 180 degrees of the sky.
That means it will be visible at some point in the night, possibly just near sunset or sunrise, for basically the entire month.
The exceptions are during the summer months when the day is longer than 12 hours and it is close enough to a new moon for the moon to only be out during the day.

If you want it to be visible for half the month or less, you should focus on if it is visible at midnight (or some other particular time).

Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2023, 08:15:30 PM »
If the moon orbits the earth once a month, why is it visible at night for more than half the month?
Let us look at one arbitrary single day, then we can assume that the moon does not move during that day (that is of course not entirely true, but good enough for now).
The earth rotates once around its axis in 24 hours, meaning that the moon is above the horizon for 12 hours, every single day. The chance that these 12 hours are exactly during daytime is pretty slim, meaning that most nights we can see the moon, but not for the full night.
But we can do better: The phases of the moon are determined by its orientation with respect to the sun, meaning that during a full moon the sun has to be more or less exactly 'opposite' of the moon. And indeed, during a full moon the moon rises pretty much exactly when the sun sets and vice versa. During a half moon the moon is exactly at his highest position either during sunrise or sunset (depending on whether it is waxing or waning), and you will see it for half the night (a waxing moon from sunset to the middle of the night, a waning moon from the middle of the night to sunrise).

Also, since the moon moves around the earth once in ~27 days, we can calculate: 360 degress / 27 gives you roughly 15 degrees. That means that, if you observe the moon at two consecutive nights at the exact same time (a minute or two won't make a difference) from the same spot, it will have moved by 15 degrees. Alternatively, the moon will be at the same spot in the sky roughly one hour later (360 degrees / 24 hours gives a bit more than 15 degrees per hour). Pick a spot where you can see the moon cross a landmark (vanish behind a tree, for example), record the time that happens. The next day, go out about 50 minutes later and go to the same spot, you will see the moon vanishing behind that same tree at that time!
If you want to bring a stopwatch let me know, then I will do the exact calculations, the ones here are very approximate, I am probably off by ~10 minutes or so.

Edit: Just noticed this is my 1000th post on this forum..  :o

Sorry I must not have explained my question well.

There is a day side of the earth, and a night side. The moon should be on the day side for 14.75 days and on the night side for 14.75 days since it orbits the earth every 29.5 days. Yet the moon can be observed at night for more than 14.75 nights in a month. The entire lunar phase can be observed in a month as long as the sky's clear.

In fact, a full moon shouldn't be possible at night because the moon goes into Earth's shadow when it's on the night side.

Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2023, 08:30:16 PM »
If the moon orbits the earth once a month, why is it visible at night for more than half the month?
Because it is visible for roughly 12 hours, because you see roughly 180 degrees of the sky.
That means it will be visible at some point in the night, possibly just near sunset or sunrise, for basically the entire month.
The exceptions are during the summer months when the day is longer than 12 hours and it is close enough to a new moon for the moon to only be out during the day.

If you want it to be visible for half the month or less, you should focus on if it is visible at midnight (or some other particular time).

The only time the moon isn't visible at night is when it's in the new moon phase. It lasts for 2 nights. This is supposedly when it's in Earth's shadow.

If the moon is in Earth's shadow during a new moon, does that mean a full moon is when the moon is on the opposite, day side of the earth? The lunar cycle lasts a month, or 29.5 days, which is how long it takes the moon to orbit the earth.

*

JackBlack

  • 21951
Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2023, 01:17:31 AM »
Sorry I must not have explained my question well.

There is a day side of the earth, and a night side. The moon should be on the day side for 14.75 days and on the night side for 14.75 days since it orbits the earth every 29.5 days. Yet the moon can be observed at night for more than 14.75 nights in a month. The entire lunar phase can be observed in a month as long as the sky's clear.
No, we understood quite fine.
By "The moon is on the day side for 14.5 days", what that really means is the sub-lunar point should be on the day side.
Your argument still relies upon only being able to see a tiny sliver of the sky.
You may as well be saying we should only be able to see the sun at solar noon.


As a simple example, consider a quarter moon.
For this, the angular separation between the sun and moon is ~ 90 degrees.
This means the moon will reach its peak in the sky at sunrise or sunset (depending on if it is waxing or waning).

It wont magically vanish at sunset when it was high in the sky just before it.
It will still be visible after sunset.

Likewise, it wont magically appear high in the sky just after sunrise. Instead it will be visible before sunrise.

Here is a diagram to show this:

The moon is clearly above the day region of Earth, but it can still be seen from the night region.

There is no issue here.
If you think there is, perhaps you can draw a diagram to explain it better?

In fact, a full moon shouldn't be possible at night because the moon goes into Earth's shadow when it's on the night side.
The full moon is rarely exactly opposite the sun.
This is because the Moon's orbital plane is tilted with respect to Earth's orbital plane, roughly 5.145 degrees.
This is why eclipses only occur in some parts of the year, because that is when the moon lies in Earth's orbital plane (or close enough to it).
And this applies for both solar and lunar eclipses.

Here is another diagram, to show what happens (very much not to scale):

The orange circle is the sun, the blue circle is Earth and the grey circle is the moon.
The purple line represents the edge of Earth's shadow (specifically the penumbra).
If the moon is above this line, it will not be in Earth's shadow.
I will be using these numbers:
Re: 6371 km (radius of Earth)
Rs: 695700 km (radius of sun)
Rm: 1737 km (radius of moon)
Des: 150000000 km (distance between Earth and sun)
Dem: 362600 km (distance between Earth and moon, chosen at perigee, for most difficulty keeping out of the shadow)

The angle a is found from:
sin(a)=(Rs+Re)/Des
This gives us a=0.27 degrees.

The angle c is obtained from:
sin(c) = (Re+Rm)/Dem
This gives us c=1.28 degrees.

The angle b is simply a+c.
This gives us 1.55 degrees.

i.e. if the alignment is such that the moon is 1.55 degrees out of the orbital plane during a new moon, it wont produce a lunar eclipse.
If I use the moon at apogee, it drops to 1.41.

And as said above, the orbital plane of the moon is offset by 5.145 degrees, much larger than the needed 1.55 degrees.
So it will not go into Earth's shadow for most of the year.

As a comparison, with a stated orbital period of 29.5 days, that means each day the moon will move by 12.2 degrees. Or alternatively, 1.55 degrees would correspond to roughly 3 hours. So doubling that (for both sides) corresponds to 6 hours, or roughly the longest duration of a lunar eclipse, such as what this one was:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2000_lunar_eclipse
(the duration of the penumbral eclipse, from P1 to P4, not the duration of the total eclipse, nor the partial umbral eclipse)



And as you may be able to guess from how much the moon moves in a day and how people don't notice it visibly change, that 5.145 degree of tilt won't produce a noticeable effect on how full the moon appears.
Even using the full 12.2 degrees, viewing the moon as a circle, and considering a line going straight across the surface, only ~2% will be dark.

The only time the moon isn't visible at night is when it's in the new moon phase. It lasts for 2 nights. This is supposedly when it's in Earth's shadow.
That is NOT when the moon is in Earth's shadow.
It is in Earth's shadow during a lunar eclipse, which occurs during a full moon.

During a new moon, it is as close to the sun as possible, and will sometimes cause a solar eclipse.
The moon's phases are not caused by Earth's shadow, but by the direction to the sun illuminating a particular region of the moon.
With the angular separation between the sun and Earth (at the moon) dictating the phase, with that angle being related to the angular separation between the sun and moon on Earth, by the 2 angles approximately adding to 180 degrees.
When the moon and sun are separated by ~0 degrees, it will be a new moon.
When the moon and sun are separated by ~180 degrees, it will be a full moon.
When the moon and sun are separated by ~90 degrees, it will be a quarter moon.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2023, 01:25:07 AM by JackBlack »

?

Kami

  • 1160
Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2023, 01:47:32 PM »
If the moon orbits the earth once a month, why is it visible at night for more than half the month?
Let us look at one arbitrary single day, then we can assume that the moon does not move during that day (that is of course not entirely true, but good enough for now).
The earth rotates once around its axis in 24 hours, meaning that the moon is above the horizon for 12 hours, every single day. The chance that these 12 hours are exactly during daytime is pretty slim, meaning that most nights we can see the moon, but not for the full night.
But we can do better: The phases of the moon are determined by its orientation with respect to the sun, meaning that during a full moon the sun has to be more or less exactly 'opposite' of the moon. And indeed, during a full moon the moon rises pretty much exactly when the sun sets and vice versa. During a half moon the moon is exactly at his highest position either during sunrise or sunset (depending on whether it is waxing or waning), and you will see it for half the night (a waxing moon from sunset to the middle of the night, a waning moon from the middle of the night to sunrise).

Also, since the moon moves around the earth once in ~27 days, we can calculate: 360 degress / 27 gives you roughly 15 degrees. That means that, if you observe the moon at two consecutive nights at the exact same time (a minute or two won't make a difference) from the same spot, it will have moved by 15 degrees. Alternatively, the moon will be at the same spot in the sky roughly one hour later (360 degrees / 24 hours gives a bit more than 15 degrees per hour). Pick a spot where you can see the moon cross a landmark (vanish behind a tree, for example), record the time that happens. The next day, go out about 50 minutes later and go to the same spot, you will see the moon vanishing behind that same tree at that time!
If you want to bring a stopwatch let me know, then I will do the exact calculations, the ones here are very approximate, I am probably off by ~10 minutes or so.

Edit: Just noticed this is my 1000th post on this forum..  :o

Sorry I must not have explained my question well.

There is a day side of the earth, and a night side. The moon should be on the day side for 14.75 days and on the night side for 14.75 days since it orbits the earth every 29.5 days. Yet the moon can be observed at night for more than 14.75 nights in a month. The entire lunar phase can be observed in a month as long as the sky's clear.

In fact, a full moon shouldn't be possible at night because the moon goes into Earth's shadow when it's on the night side.
The moon rotates around the earth every 27 days, yes, but the earth also turns once every 24 hours. That means that, from an observer on earth, the moon 'rotates' around the earth roughly once every 24 hours, just like the stars do.

Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2023, 10:48:37 AM »
Earth not only rotates about its own axis but also orbits around the sun. There is a day on earth when it in its orbit faces the sun. Sunlight that doesn’t fall on earth moves in a straight line in all other directions. The diameter of the sun is 109 times wider than Earth. Since light rays travel in straight lines therefore light emitted from 108 times the diameter of the earth of the sun is missed by the earth. How come we see the whole image of the sun when an earth receives a very small portion of sunlight? BTW I’m not a flat earther. 

*

JackBlack

  • 21951
Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2023, 12:31:37 PM »
Earth not only rotates about its own axis but also orbits around the sun. There is a day on earth when it in its orbit faces the sun. Sunlight that doesn’t fall on earth moves in a straight line in all other directions. The diameter of the sun is 109 times wider than Earth. Since light rays travel in straight lines therefore light emitted from 108 times the diameter of the earth of the sun is missed by the earth. How come we see the whole image of the sun when an earth receives a very small portion of sunlight? BTW I’m not a flat earther.
Light travels in all directions.

You could try the same argument with any object.
Compare the size of the screen you are using to view this comment with the size of your eye.
I'm almost certain that the screen is larger than your eye, yet you can easily see it all.


From a point on Earth (in blue), we can trace straight rays of light (in red) back to the sun(orange), so see all the sun.
Likewise, any point on the sun will radiate light in all directions (in purple).

Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2023, 11:14:23 AM »
Quote
Quote
Quote from: E E K on February 20, 2023, 10:48:37 AM
Earth not only rotates about its own axis but also orbits around the sun. There is a day on earth when it in its orbit faces the sun. Sunlight that doesn’t fall on earth moves in a straight line in all other directions. The diameter of the sun is 109 times wider than Earth. Since light rays travel in straight lines therefore light emitted from 108 times the diameter of the earth of the sun is missed by the earth. How come we see the whole image of the sun when an earth receives a very small portion of sunlight? BTW I’m not a flat earther.
Light travels in all directions.

You could try the same argument with any object.
Compare the size of the screen you are using to view this comment with the size of your eye.
I'm almost certain that the screen is larger than your eye, yet you can easily see it all.


From a point on Earth (in blue), we can trace straight rays of light (in red) back to the sun(orange), so see all the sun.
Likewise, any point on the sun will radiate light in all directions (in purple).
Refer to your figure.

Focusing the sun's rays on one place would start a fire and consequently, the whole planet would be burned.

Not every point of the sun's surface acts like a sun that radiates light rays in all directions. You can also take the example of other celestial bodies from where sunlight rays are reflected towards the earth. Light rays reflected from the said bodies travel in a straight line. This means the earth misses a lot of light rays and consequently, we wouldn't be able to see their images.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2023, 11:22:44 AM by E E K »

Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2023, 11:17:22 AM »
Quote
Globe earth Q&A
« on: February 16, 2023, 12:43:36 PM »
In my lurking I have found that a lot of arguments for FE stem from a misunderstanding of how the heliocentric globe model works. So, curious flat-earthers or people that are undecided, please feel free to ask any questions you have about the globe model here!
There is midnight for every noon but for every noon there is no midnight.

The earth traces out a path (two concentric circles for simplicity) when it rotates about its own axis and orbits around the sun.

Draw a third or mid-circle in b/t aforementioned two concentric circles.

The area in b/t outer circle and the mid circle represents the total night time on the earth in one complete year.

The area in b/t inner circle and the mid-circle represents the total daytime on the earth in one complete year.

Any point on the outer circle represents midnight while any point on the inner circle represents noon.

The circumference of the outer circle is greater than the inner circle therefore it shows the occurrences of midnight are more than the occurrences of noon.

Can you explain why?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2023, 01:58:14 AM by E E K »

*

JackBlack

  • 21951
Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2023, 01:37:25 PM »
Refer to your figure.
Focusing the sun's rays on one place would start a fire and consequently, the whole planet would be burned.
Try understanding the figure.
The sun's rays are not being focused. They are going in all directions.
The lines in red shows how rays from various points on the surface of the sun will reach an observer on Earth.

There are still rays going out from all directions at every point on the sun. There is no focusing.

Not every point of the sun's surface acts like a sun that radiates light rays in all directions.
Based on what?
Just what magic stops this?
What magic causes the sun's rays to leave the sun only in particular directions?

You can also take the example of other celestial bodies from where sunlight rays are reflected towards the earth. Light rays reflected from the said bodies travel in a straight line. This means the earth misses a lot of light rays and consequently, we wouldn't be able to see their images.
The "reflection" off these bodies is diffuse, not specular.
This is in part due to the nature of the surface, that it is not a mirror like surface.
This means the light from the sun hits any point on the object, and reflects in all directions.

This means the illuminated region will be visible anywhere you can see that illuminated region.

We also don't need to bother with a celestial object. Instead we can just use any object on Earth. Go step outside and look a the pavement. Notice how you aren't seeing the sun reflected in it?
But then try it with water or a mirror, and you can.

There is midnight for every noon but for every midnight there is no noon.
This makes no sense at all.
The only way for it to work if there was no noon.
Just what magic means we have a midnight for noon but not vice versa?

Or did you simply mean that there is a noon for some midnights, but not every midnight?

The earth traces out a path (two concentric circles for simplicity) when it rotates about its own axis and orbits around the sun.

Draw a third or mid-circle in b/t aforementioned two concentric circles.

The area in b/t outer circle and the mid circle represents the total night time on the earth in one complete year.
No it doesn't.
This relies upon assuming Earth is magically changing speed such that the outer circle takes a longer time than the inner circle.
If that was the case Earth would be torn apart.

Can you explain why we should take the area, instead of using the angle?

Here is a simpler approach, pick any arbitrary point on the outer circle. This represents a midnight.
Now draw a line directly towards the sun from that point.
Where it passes the inner circle corresponds to a noon. That is the noon for the midnight.
There is no point on the outer circle which does not have a corresponding point on the inner circle.

Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2023, 07:46:37 PM »
My understanding of the light rays falling on the earth is right.

Any point on the inner circle represents noon while any point on the outer circle represents midnight. Connect all noons to the center of the sun via straight lines. Extend these lines further to the outer circle to their respective midnights.

Now imagine the occurrence of two consecutive midnights and noons on their respective circles when the earth touches them while rotating and orbiting around the sun.

All noon are adjacent on the inner circle but their respective midnights are not. All midnights are separated by a gape while no gape can be found b/t two consecutive noon.

The speed of the earth in its orbit has nothing to do with all the above.

Remember noon or midnight occurs instantly, No glide or time dilation is involved.

*

JackBlack

  • 21951
Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2023, 12:07:59 AM »
My understanding of the light rays falling on the earth is right.
Why?
Because you say so?
If it was right you would be able to justify it.

Once more, just what magic stops the sun's surface from projecting rays of light in all directions?
Just what direction do you think it should go in?
You seem to think it should only go directly towards Earth.
Why?

Now imagine the occurrence of two consecutive midnights and noons on their respective circles when the earth touches them while rotating and orbiting around the sun.
This simple diagram idea doesn't provide any meaningful "consecutive" midnights or noons.
There is a continuum.

The speed of the earth in its orbit has nothing to do with all the above.
That's right, it doesn't matter how fast Earth moves, this simple method allows us to have a noon for every midnight.

Remember noon or midnight occurs instantly, No glide or time dilation is involved.
That's right, it's a continuum, with no length component, so there is no consecutive noons or midnight.

?

Kami

  • 1160
Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2023, 02:43:47 PM »
My understanding of the light rays falling on the earth is right.

Any point on the inner circle represents noon while any point on the outer circle represents midnight. Connect all noons to the center of the sun via straight lines. Extend these lines further to the outer circle to their respective midnights.

Now imagine the occurrence of two consecutive midnights and noons on their respective circles when the earth touches them while rotating and orbiting around the sun.

All noon are adjacent on the inner circle but their respective midnights are not. All midnights are separated by a gape while no gape can be found b/t two consecutive noon.

The speed of the earth in its orbit has nothing to do with all the above.

Remember noon or midnight occurs instantly, No glide or time dilation is involved.

I am not sure if I understand your scenario correctly. Do you claim that according to the heliocentric model there should be two consecutive midnights without a noon in between? Can you maybe draw a sketch?

Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2023, 10:50:12 PM »
Quote
Quote
Quote from: E E K on February 22, 2023, 07:46:37 PM
My understanding of the light rays falling on the earth is right.

Any point on the inner circle represents noon while any point on the outer circle represents midnight. Connect all noons to the center of the sun via straight lines. Extend these lines further to the outer circle to their respective midnights.

Now imagine the occurrence of two consecutive midnights and noons on their respective circles when the earth touches them while rotating and orbiting around the sun.

All noon are adjacent on the inner circle but their respective midnights are not. All midnights are separated by a gape while no gape can be found b/t two consecutive noon.

The speed of the earth in its orbit has nothing to do with all the above.

Remember noon or midnight occurs instantly, No glide or time dilation is involved.

I am not sure if I understand your scenario correctly. Do you claim that according to the heliocentric model there should be two consecutive midnights without a noon in between? Can you maybe draw a sketch?
The occurrences of midnight are more than the occurrences of noon in the solar system. Here is how

The earth traces out a path in space when it rotates about its own axis and orbits around the sun. For simplicity,

Draw two concentric circles such that the difference between their radii is equal to the diameter of the earth.

The center of the aforementioned two circles represents the center of the sun.

The radius of the inner circle is traced in space by the equator of the earth when there is an exact noon on it.

The radius of the outer circle is traced in space by the equator of the earth when there is an exact anti-noon on the earth.

Draw a third circle (mid-circle) in b/t aforementioned two above said concentric circles.

The area in b/t outer circle and the mid circle represents the total nighttime on the earth in one complete year. Color this area with a black marker.

The area in b/t inner circle and the mid-circle represents the total daytime on the earth in one complete year.

Any point on the outer circle represents midnight while any point on the inner circle represents noon.

Connect all adjacent noons that are traced on the inner circle to the center of the sun via straight lines. Extend these lines further to the outer circle to their respective midnights.

Now imagine the occurrence of two consecutive midnights and noons on their respective circles when the earth touches them while rotating and orbiting around the sun. All noon are adjacent on the inner circle but their respective midnights are not.

All midnights are separated by a gape while no gape can be found b/t two consecutive noon in the continuum. The speed of the earth in its orbit has nothing to do with all the above. Please also remember noon or midnight occurs instantly. No glide or time dilation is involved. The circumference of the outer circle is greater than the inner circle therefore it shows the occurrences of midnight are more than the occurrences of noon. Also, the total yearly nighttime on earth is greater than the total yearly daytime on earth.

For the diagram, there is a link in reply #2 in the following link.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=76422.0

You can reply directly to the above link if you want.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2023, 11:13:43 PM by E E K »

*

Stash

  • Ethical Stash
  • 13398
  • I am car!
Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2023, 11:05:09 PM »
Quote
Quote
Quote from: E E K on February 22, 2023, 07:46:37 PM
My understanding of the light rays falling on the earth is right.

Any point on the inner circle represents noon while any point on the outer circle represents midnight. Connect all noons to the center of the sun via straight lines. Extend these lines further to the outer circle to their respective midnights.

Now imagine the occurrence of two consecutive midnights and noons on their respective circles when the earth touches them while rotating and orbiting around the sun.

All noon are adjacent on the inner circle but their respective midnights are not. All midnights are separated by a gape while no gape can be found b/t two consecutive noon.

The speed of the earth in its orbit has nothing to do with all the above.

Remember noon or midnight occurs instantly, No glide or time dilation is involved.

I am not sure if I understand your scenario correctly. Do you claim that according to the heliocentric model there should be two consecutive midnights without a noon in between? Can you maybe draw a sketch?
The occurrences of midnight are more than the occurrences of noon in the solar system. Here is how

The earth traces out a path in space when it rotates about its own axis and orbits around the sun. For simplicity,

Draw two concentric circles such that the difference between their radii is equal to the diameter of the earth.

I don't get it. Why is there an outer ring and an inner ring?

Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2023, 11:15:40 PM »
Quote
I don't get it. Why is there an outer ring and an inner ring?
It is a top view of the sun and earth when the earth rotates about its axis and orbits around the sun.

*

Stash

  • Ethical Stash
  • 13398
  • I am car!
Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2023, 12:19:54 AM »
Quote
I don't get it. Why is there an outer ring and an inner ring?
It is a top view of the sun and earth when the earth rotates about its axis and orbits around the sun.

Ok, I see. Here, I'll put your image here for convenience...



I think this is the crux, "The circumference of the outer circle is greater than the inner circle therefore it shows the occurrences of midnight are more than the occurrences of noon. Also, the total yearly nighttime on earth is greater than the total yearly daytime on earth."

I still don't get this. How many more midnights than noons are there in a year?

It seems like you're over complicating things. When it's noon somewhere, it's midnight somewhere else. 1-to-1 ratio. Everybody gets one of each per day. Simple as that.



*

JackBlack

  • 21951
Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2023, 02:28:58 AM »
The occurrences of midnight are more than the occurrences of noon in the solar system.
Repeating the same claim while ignoring the problems with it will not help you.

The occurrences of noon and midnight are equal.

The area in b/t outer circle and the mid circle represents the total nighttime on the earth in one complete year. Color this area with a black marker.
Again, THIS IS FALSE!
Repeating this false claim will not help you.
Again, if this was true Earth would tare itself apart.
You are spouting pure nonsense.

By virtue of being further out, it would necessarily have to go faster, meaning the area is NOT proportional to the time.
Instead the angular span is.

Now imagine the occurrence of two consecutive midnights and noons on their respective circles when the earth touches them while rotating and orbiting around the sun. All noon are adjacent on the inner circle but their respective midnights are not.
Again, it is a continuum. There is no distance between the "adjacent" or whatever nonsense you want to use for the 2 noons. Likewise there is no distance between the 2 midnights.

Again, repeating the same refuted nonsense will not help you.

?

Kami

  • 1160
Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2023, 07:45:55 AM »
Quote
I don't get it. Why is there an outer ring and an inner ring?
It is a top view of the sun and earth when the earth rotates about its axis and orbits around the sun.

Ok, I see. Here, I'll put your image here for convenience...



I think this is the crux, "The circumference of the outer circle is greater than the inner circle therefore it shows the occurrences of midnight are more than the occurrences of noon. Also, the total yearly nighttime on earth is greater than the total yearly daytime on earth."

I still don't get this. How many more midnights than noons are there in a year?

It seems like you're over complicating things. When it's noon somewhere, it's midnight somewhere else. 1-to-1 ratio. Everybody gets one of each per day. Simple as that.


Okay first off:
if you draw a line through every single point on the inner circle then also every single point on the outer circle will be crossed by a line. That is the deal with infinity.

Then your claim 'the total duration of night is greater than the duration of day': You are right about this one. However, keep in mind that the distance earth-sun is 25 000 times greater than the radius of the earth, so the effect would be about three seconds per year. So this is not noticeable, especially since it is very hard to define a clear time when 'day' turns into 'night'.

*

Stash

  • Ethical Stash
  • 13398
  • I am car!
Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2023, 10:03:13 AM »
Quote
I don't get it. Why is there an outer ring and an inner ring?
It is a top view of the sun and earth when the earth rotates about its axis and orbits around the sun.

Ok, I see. Here, I'll put your image here for convenience...



I think this is the crux, "The circumference of the outer circle is greater than the inner circle therefore it shows the occurrences of midnight are more than the occurrences of noon. Also, the total yearly nighttime on earth is greater than the total yearly daytime on earth."

I still don't get this. How many more midnights than noons are there in a year?

It seems like you're over complicating things. When it's noon somewhere, it's midnight somewhere else. 1-to-1 ratio. Everybody gets one of each per day. Simple as that.


Okay first off:
if you draw a line through every single point on the inner circle then also every single point on the outer circle will be crossed by a line. That is the deal with infinity.

Then your claim 'the total duration of night is greater than the duration of day': You are right about this one. However, keep in mind that the distance earth-sun is 25 000 times greater than the radius of the earth, so the effect would be about three seconds per year. So this is not noticeable, especially since it is very hard to define a clear time when 'day' turns into 'night'.

You're responding the EEK, right?

To your point, there are infinite "points" on each ARC, path, circle, whatever he wants to call it. Additionally, I was trying to figure out the earth-sun distance v radius thing too, but couldn't reason it out. But my intuition was in the ballpark of "negligible" as well.

Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2023, 11:19:58 AM »
Quote
I don't get it. Why is there an outer ring and an inner ring?
It is a top view of the sun and earth when the earth rotates about its axis and orbits around the sun.

Ok, I see. Here, I'll put your image here for convenience...



I think this is the crux, "The circumference of the outer circle is greater than the inner circle therefore it shows the occurrences of midnight are more than the occurrences of noon. Also, the total yearly nighttime on earth is greater than the total yearly daytime on earth."

I still don't get this. How many more midnights than noons are there in a year?

It seems like you're over complicating things. When it's noon somewhere, it's midnight somewhere else. 1-to-1 ratio. Everybody gets one of each per day. Simple as that.


Okay first off:
if you draw a line through every single point on the inner circle then also every single point on the outer circle will be crossed by a line. That is the deal with infinity.

Then your claim 'the total duration of night is greater than the duration of day': You are right about this one. However, keep in mind that the distance earth-sun is 25 000 times greater than the radius of the earth, so the effect would be about three seconds per year. So this is not noticeable, especially since it is very hard to define a clear time when 'day' turns into 'night'.
Calculate the length of the circumference of the inner circle = L1
Calculate the length of the circumference of the outer circle = L2
Calculate the length of the equator of earth = L3

There are an infinite # of points on L1, L2, and L3.

This means an infinite of noons and midnights occur on “L3” in the 24 hours when the earth rotates and orbits around the sun. OR Noon and anti-noon happen every moment on the L3 and leave their traces on  L1 and L2 respectively when the L3 touches them.

Since there is midnight for every noon therefore L1 must be equal to L2 even if an infinite # of noon and midnight occur on earth that are traced in the earth’s orbit. L1 is supposed to be equal to L2 (L1=L2).

But the length of the circumference of the outer is greater than the length of the circumference of the inner circle therefore for every noon, there is midnight but not vice versa. 

Let AB = CD = 10 cm be straight lines. Let there is another straight line EF = 100 cm. There are an infinite number of points on AB, CD, and EF but it doesn't mean EF = AB = CD. Since the length of EF = 100 cm is greater than AB = CD = 10 cm therefore EF is not equal to AB or CD despite all lines consisting of an infinite number of points on them.

Hence AB=BC because each and every point of AB has a match on BC and vice versa as well BUT AB or BC is not equal to EF as the match of each and every point on AB or BC can be found on EF but not vice versa.

Hope this may help.

?

Kami

  • 1160
Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2023, 11:29:07 AM »
Quote
I don't get it. Why is there an outer ring and an inner ring?
It is a top view of the sun and earth when the earth rotates about its axis and orbits around the sun.

Ok, I see. Here, I'll put your image here for convenience...



I think this is the crux, "The circumference of the outer circle is greater than the inner circle therefore it shows the occurrences of midnight are more than the occurrences of noon. Also, the total yearly nighttime on earth is greater than the total yearly daytime on earth."

I still don't get this. How many more midnights than noons are there in a year?

It seems like you're over complicating things. When it's noon somewhere, it's midnight somewhere else. 1-to-1 ratio. Everybody gets one of each per day. Simple as that.


Okay first off:
if you draw a line through every single point on the inner circle then also every single point on the outer circle will be crossed by a line. That is the deal with infinity.

Then your claim 'the total duration of night is greater than the duration of day': You are right about this one. However, keep in mind that the distance earth-sun is 25 000 times greater than the radius of the earth, so the effect would be about three seconds per year. So this is not noticeable, especially since it is very hard to define a clear time when 'day' turns into 'night'.
Calculate the length of the circumference of the inner circle = L1
Calculate the length of the circumference of the outer circle = L2
Calculate the length of the equator of earth = L3

There are an infinite # of points on L1, L2, and L3.

This means an infinite of noons and midnights occur on “L3” in the 24 hours when the earth rotates and orbits around the sun. OR Noon and anti-noon happen every moment on the L3 and leave their traces on  L1 and L2 respectively when the L3 touches them.

Since there is midnight for every noon therefore L1 must be equal to L2 even if an infinite # of noon and midnight occur on earth that are traced in the earth’s orbit. L1 is supposed to be equal to L2 (L1=L2).

But the length of the circumference of the outer is greater than the length of the circumference of the inner circle therefore for every noon, there is midnight but not vice versa. 

Let AB = CD = 10 cm be straight lines. Let there is another straight line EF = 100 cm. There are an infinite number of points on AB, CD, and EF but it doesn't mean EF = AB = CD. Since the length of EF = 100 cm is greater than AB = CD = 10 cm therefore EF is not equal to AB or CD despite all lines consisting of an infinite number of points on them.

Hence AB=BC because each and every point of AB has a match on BC and vice versa as well BUT AB or BC is not equal to EF as the match of each and every point on AB or BC can be found on EF but not vice versa.

Hope this may help.

Honestly, it does not. I am not arguing that the circles have the same circumference. The outer circle is 0.004% longer than the inner one. I do not see how that relates to 'number of noons' or 'number of midnights' on earth. If you pick any single point at the surface of the earth, it will have the same number of noons and midnights.

You can try this out. Go to a dark room, put a lamp in the middle (one that emits light in all directions). Take a tennis ball, paint a dot on it. Now walk along a circle around your lamp while turning the tennis ball once for every step you make. Count the numbers of noons (point points towards the lamp) and midnights (point points away from the lamp). At no point the ball just magically 'skips' one noon to move directly to midnight.

To be honest, I think my main problem is that I really do not know the point of all your considerations. Maybe you can help me:
According to your thoughts, which concrete observation would your model predict that is not met in reality?

*

Alexei

  • レクシー
  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 3126
  • Over it.
Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2023, 11:30:44 AM »
tl;dr
Can you give me a shorter version?

?

Kami

  • 1160
Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2023, 11:37:47 AM »
tl;dr
Can you give me a shorter version?
Shorter version of what?

*

Alexei

  • レクシー
  • Flat Earth Believer
  • 3126
  • Over it.
Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2023, 11:40:41 AM »
Everything, darling.

Re: Globe earth Q&A
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2023, 11:41:02 AM »
Quote
I don't get it. Why is there an outer ring and an inner ring?
It is a top view of the sun and earth when the earth rotates about its axis and orbits around the sun.

Ok, I see. Here, I'll put your image here for convenience...



I think this is the crux, "The circumference of the outer circle is greater than the inner circle therefore it shows the occurrences of midnight are more than the occurrences of noon. Also, the total yearly nighttime on earth is greater than the total yearly daytime on earth."

I still don't get this. How many more midnights than noons are there in a year?

It seems like you're over complicating things. When it's noon somewhere, it's midnight somewhere else. 1-to-1 ratio. Everybody gets one of each per day. Simple as that.


Okay first off:
if you draw a line through every single point on the inner circle then also every single point on the outer circle will be crossed by a line. That is the deal with infinity.

Then your claim 'the total duration of night is greater than the duration of day': You are right about this one. However, keep in mind that the distance earth-sun is 25 000 times greater than the radius of the earth, so the effect would be about three seconds per year. So this is not noticeable, especially since it is very hard to define a clear time when 'day' turns into 'night'.
Calculate the length of the circumference of the inner circle = L1
Calculate the length of the circumference of the outer circle = L2
Calculate the length of the equator of earth = L3

There are an infinite # of points on L1, L2, and L3.

This means an infinite of noons and midnights occur on “L3” in the 24 hours when the earth rotates and orbits around the sun. OR Noon and anti-noon happen every moment on the L3 and leave their traces on  L1 and L2 respectively when the L3 touches them.

Since there is midnight for every noon therefore L1 must be equal to L2 even if an infinite # of noon and midnight occur on earth that are traced in the earth’s orbit. L1 is supposed to be equal to L2 (L1=L2).

But the length of the circumference of the outer is greater than the length of the circumference of the inner circle therefore for every noon, there is midnight but not vice versa. 

Let AB = CD = 10 cm be straight lines. Let there is another straight line EF = 100 cm. There are an infinite number of points on AB, CD, and EF but it doesn't mean EF = AB = CD. Since the length of EF = 100 cm is greater than AB = CD = 10 cm therefore EF is not equal to AB or CD despite all lines consisting of an infinite number of points on them.

Hence AB=BC because each and every point of AB has a match on BC and vice versa as well BUT AB or BC is not equal to EF as the match of each and every point on AB or BC can be found on EF but not vice versa.

Hope this may help.

Honestly, it does not. I am not arguing that the circles have the same circumference. The outer circle is 0.004% longer than the inner one. I do not see how that relates to 'number of noons' or 'number of midnights' on earth. If you pick any single point at the surface of the earth, it will have the same number of noons and midnights.

You can try this out. Go to a dark room, put a lamp in the middle (one that emits light in all directions). Take a tennis ball, paint a dot on it. Now walk along a circle around your lamp while turning the tennis ball once for every step you make. Count the numbers of noons (point points towards the lamp) and midnights (point points away from the lamp). At no point the ball just magically 'skips' one noon to move directly to midnight.

To be honest, I think my main problem is that I really do not know the point of all your considerations. Maybe you can help me:
According to your thoughts, which concrete observation would your model predict that is not met in reality?
there is freedom of choice and freedom of thought but the difference in the L1 and L2 is not ignorable. Also the greater the distance between the earth - sun is the greater the difference is between L1 and L2.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2023, 01:40:39 PM by E E K »