NASA & DARPA to develop Nuclear Thermal Rocket Engines

Interesting news article I just read.  NASA and DARPA are going to resurrect some 1950s/1960s tech and develop a nuclear thermal rocket engine for travel between the Moon and Mars in effort to shorten the trips.

I read about that this morn. Apparently they are on track for in-space demonstration as early as 2027. In the article I read I didn't see how much faster it would be to Mars, but apparently significant.

Took them forever to get the go-ahead on this project.
The time to Mars will take as short as you need to safely travel there, and not any longer. Because the more payload you pack, the slower you go.

So they will take the shortest trave time possible, then load the craft with as much stuff as they can until it does it in that time.

I dont think it can do it in 3 months, but that would be optimal.

Took them forever to get the go-ahead on this project.
The time to Mars will take as short as you need to safely travel there, and not any longer. Because the more payload you pack, the slower you go.

So they will take the shortest trave time possible, then load the craft with as much stuff as they can until it does it in that time.

I dont think it can do it in 3 months, but that would be optimal.

Humans have proven we can travel in inhumane and barbaric conditions for longer. The time it took for convicts to sail from England to Australia or the slave trade between Africa and America could take as long as 4 months. Whipped, malnourished and abused with little prospects but slave labour when you get to your destination and I think for us to be pioneers in space is not such a tall order.

That Mars One hoax proved there are a lot of people enthusiastic about a one way trip where the odds of even making it to Mars let alone survive longer than your oxygen tank lasts are razor thin

At the end of the day, going to Mars would be the grandest pioneering in the history of humanity. We cant pretend there wont be loss of life on the way.

Going to Mars wont be one way trips. There will be strong interest to know that you can make it there safely.
Just sending lunatics who are happy to die on impact within weeks of getting on Mars is not how you build a Mars colony. You want sane people who want to live.

Getting to Mars is however a pretty dangerous thing, and will be for a long long time. The radiation on the way to Mars is very high. It gets much better once you land. I dont imagine the first 20 crew that lands on Mars will have anyone under 40 years of age on the ship. Its no place for kids.

That Mars One hoax proved there are a lot of people enthusiastic about a one way trip where the odds of even making it to Mars let alone survive longer than your oxygen tank lasts are razor thin

I think the ISS manufactures oxygen. So maybe that won't be an issue.

Quote from: Wolvaccine on February 15, 2023, 01:47:11 AM

That Mars One hoax proved there are a lot of people enthusiastic about a one way trip where the odds of even making it to Mars let alone survive longer than your oxygen tank lasts are razor thin

I think the ISS manufactures oxygen. So maybe that won't be an issue.

https://interestingengineering.com/science/how-is-breathable-air-replenished-on-the-iss

It does.
Long story short:
They take water, split it up, then take Hydrogen and CO2 to make Methane and Water and heat.
The methane is vented into space.

One problem solved. Now we just have to get them there faster than 7-9 months so they all don't kill each other out of boredom. I guess subs stay under water for months at a time, like 4 or so, so maybe there's a precedent for people being able to handle being cooped up for inordinate amounts of time.

One problem solved. Now we just have to get them there faster than 7-9 months so they all don't kill each other out of boredom. I guess subs stay under water for months at a time, like 4 or so, so maybe there's a precedent for people being able to handle being cooped up for inordinate amounts of time.

There is.  And a lot of research on it. 
Like sex buddies is a thing they're looking at. 

Plus, lots of intraverts can handle that. :p

Quote from: Stash on February 17, 2023, 03:24:28 PM

One problem solved. Now we just have to get them there faster than 7-9 months so they all don't kill each other out of boredom. I guess subs stay under water for months at a time, like 4 or so, so maybe there's a precedent for people being able to handle being cooped up for inordinate amounts of time.

There is.  And a lot of research on it. 
Like sex buddies is a thing they're looking at. 

Plus, lots of intraverts can handle that. :p

I await the indepth research on the sex buddies bit...

One problem solved. Now we just have to get them there faster than 7-9 months so they all don't kill each other out of boredom. I guess subs stay under water for months at a time, like 4 or so, so maybe there's a precedent for people being able to handle being cooped up for inordinate amounts of time.

Issue already taken care of.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23230-mars-trip-to-use-astronaut-poo-as-radiation-shield/

But their greatest health risk comes from exposure to the radiation from cosmic rays. The solution? Line the spacecraft’s walls with water, food and their own faeces.

“It’s a little queasy sounding, but there’s no place for that material to go, and it makes great radiation shielding,” says Taber MacCallum, a member of the team funded by multimillionaire Dennis Tito, who announced the audacious plan earlier this week.

McCallum told New Scientist that solid and liquid human waste products would get put into bags and used as a radiation shield – as well as being dehydrated so that any water can be recycled for drinking. “Dehydrate them as much as possible, because we need to get the water back,” he said. “Those solid waste products get put into a bag, put right back against the wall.”

Quote from: Stash on February 17, 2023, 03:24:28 PM

One problem solved. Now we just have to get them there faster than 7-9 months so they all don't kill each other out of boredom. I guess subs stay under water for months at a time, like 4 or so, so maybe there's a precedent for people being able to handle being cooped up for inordinate amounts of time.

Issue already taken care of.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23230-mars-trip-to-use-astronaut-poo-as-radiation-shield/

Quote

But their greatest health risk comes from exposure to the radiation from cosmic rays. The solution? Line the spacecraft’s walls with water, food and their own faeces.

“It’s a little queasy sounding, but there’s no place for that material to go, and it makes great radiation shielding,” says Taber MacCallum, a member of the team funded by multimillionaire Dennis Tito, who announced the audacious plan earlier this week.

McCallum told New Scientist that solid and liquid human waste products would get put into bags and used as a radiation shield – as well as being dehydrated so that any water can be recycled for drinking. “Dehydrate them as much as possible, because we need to get the water back,” he said. “Those solid waste products get put into a bag, put right back against the wall.”

I'm officially rescinding my application to be a Mars astronaut. I'm all for the interstellar hook ups, but I must draw the line at bagging mine or anyone elses' poop...radiation be damned. I have limits.

Quote from: Wolvaccine on February 18, 2023, 06:05:15 AM

Quote from: Stash on February 17, 2023, 03:24:28 PM

One problem solved. Now we just have to get them there faster than 7-9 months so they all don't kill each other out of boredom. I guess subs stay under water for months at a time, like 4 or so, so maybe there's a precedent for people being able to handle being cooped up for inordinate amounts of time.

Issue already taken care of.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23230-mars-trip-to-use-astronaut-poo-as-radiation-shield/

Quote

But their greatest health risk comes from exposure to the radiation from cosmic rays. The solution? Line the spacecraft’s walls with water, food and their own faeces.

“It’s a little queasy sounding, but there’s no place for that material to go, and it makes great radiation shielding,” says Taber MacCallum, a member of the team funded by multimillionaire Dennis Tito, who announced the audacious plan earlier this week.

McCallum told New Scientist that solid and liquid human waste products would get put into bags and used as a radiation shield – as well as being dehydrated so that any water can be recycled for drinking. “Dehydrate them as much as possible, because we need to get the water back,” he said. “Those solid waste products get put into a bag, put right back against the wall.”

I'm officially rescinding my application to be a Mars astronaut. I'm all for the interstellar hook ups, but I must draw the line at bagging mine or anyone elses' poop...radiation be damned. I have limits.

I thought they had machines for bagging poop.

Quote from: Stash on February 18, 2023, 10:16:42 AM

Quote from: Wolvaccine on February 18, 2023, 06:05:15 AM

Quote from: Stash on February 17, 2023, 03:24:28 PM

One problem solved. Now we just have to get them there faster than 7-9 months so they all don't kill each other out of boredom. I guess subs stay under water for months at a time, like 4 or so, so maybe there's a precedent for people being able to handle being cooped up for inordinate amounts of time.

Issue already taken care of.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn23230-mars-trip-to-use-astronaut-poo-as-radiation-shield/

Quote

But their greatest health risk comes from exposure to the radiation from cosmic rays. The solution? Line the spacecraft’s walls with water, food and their own faeces.

“It’s a little queasy sounding, but there’s no place for that material to go, and it makes great radiation shielding,” says Taber MacCallum, a member of the team funded by multimillionaire Dennis Tito, who announced the audacious plan earlier this week.

McCallum told New Scientist that solid and liquid human waste products would get put into bags and used as a radiation shield – as well as being dehydrated so that any water can be recycled for drinking. “Dehydrate them as much as possible, because we need to get the water back,” he said. “Those solid waste products get put into a bag, put right back against the wall.”

I'm officially rescinding my application to be a Mars astronaut. I'm all for the interstellar hook ups, but I must draw the line at bagging mine or anyone elses' poop...radiation be damned. I have limits.

I thought they had machines for bagging poop.

They do, but sometimes they get jammed and someone has to do the unjamming. As well, somebody has to pack them into the walls. I'm not gonna be a fecal brick layer.

A Broken Toilet in Space is a Special Brand of Horror

To Boldly Go: The Science Behind Pooping in Space

I'm officially rescinding my application to be a Mars astronaut. I'm all for the interstellar hook ups, but I must draw the line at bagging mine or anyone elses' poop...radiation be damned. I have limits.

How do you feel about using your poop for fertilizer once you get to Mars?

Quote from: Stash on February 18, 2023, 10:16:42 AM

I'm officially rescinding my application to be a Mars astronaut. I'm all for the interstellar hook ups, but I must draw the line at bagging mine or anyone elses' poop...radiation be damned. I have limits.

How do you feel about using your poop for fertilizer once you get to Mars?

Good thing we are abandoning that stupid outer space treaty that aims to prevent contamination of other worlds. All that pissing, shitting and using our unique brand of fertiliser.....

Good thing we are abandoning that stupid outer space treaty that aims to prevent contamination of other worlds.

Yeah.  It's kinda hard to colonize a planet without contaminating it.

All that pissing, shitting and using our unique brand of fertiliser.....

Using poop, even human poop, as fertilizer is hardly unique.

Quote from: Stash on February 18, 2023, 10:16:42 AM

I'm officially rescinding my application to be a Mars astronaut. I'm all for the interstellar hook ups, but I must draw the line at bagging mine or anyone elses' poop...radiation be damned. I have limits.

How do you feel about using your poop for fertilizer once you get to Mars?

By the time we get to Mars I will have been promoted to Commodore so I'll just order the underlings to deal with the poop fertilization tasks.

Using poop, even human poop, as fertilizer is hardly unique.

It would be unique to the alien world we strewn with it

Good thing we are abandoning that stupid outer space treaty that aims to prevent contamination of other worlds. All that pissing, shitting and using our unique brand of fertiliser.....

The outer space treaty does not talk about outer planet contamination. Thats just NASA policy. If China want to send their Covid patients to Mars, no one is going to stop them. Unfortunately. Because they should not do that.

Quote from: Wolvaccine on February 19, 2023, 07:16:47 PM

Good thing we are abandoning that stupid outer space treaty that aims to prevent contamination of other worlds. All that pissing, shitting and using our unique brand of fertiliser.....

The outer space treaty does not talk about outer planet contamination. Thats just NASA policy. If China want to send their Covid patients to Mars, no one is going to stop them. Unfortunately. Because they should not do that.

When the treaty was signed in 1967, China was in no way a contender for getting anything into space. Most of the treaty looks respectable (eg 'the exploration and use of outer space shall be carried out for the benefit and in the interests of all countries and shall be the province of all mankind').

And maybe the part 'States shall avoid harmful contamination of space and celestial bodies.' had a point in the 60s when we had no idea what was up there, what if anything lived out there or what we could bring back... Was a fair point to make

Now we know they are desolate and pretty much lifeless. The goal for a long time has always been to 'colonise' if at all practical, and we have technology now that if we found life on Mars for example, we could easily determine whether it was unique to Mars or came from Earth. We probably couldn't fathom that tech in the 60s

So line the spacecraft with shit. Then shit all over Mars. Keep in mind, it will still take centuries of effort and innovation to get Mars even remotely habitable for humans and even then, it will always be a sub par planet for humanity until such time we evolve to get used to the lower gravity environment and then, can we call those settlers the same species anymore?

But what's the point of having a few hundred people on Mars when you could only be confined to small domes living a pitiful and arduous life? Better to terraform it so that it can be a habitat for hundreds of millions of people



I'm still a fan of terraforming and colonising Venus though. 

Now we know they are desolate and pretty much lifeless.

Well, no, we dont really know this. There are still some spots in the solar system where life could exist, and Mars is still one of the contenders.
Its also not just about "finding" life. Its about not wiping it out if it does exist.

We could find interesting life on Mars, and then have our imported bacteria eat it like its candy.

Personally though, I dont think there is life beyond earth. And my reasoning stems from the Fermi paradox.
If life was easy to find, there would be aliens everywhere we look. We dont see them, so they are not there, so life does not form easily.

And colonising venus will be way harder than Mars

Quote from: Wolvaccine on February 20, 2023, 03:16:24 AM

Now we know they are desolate and pretty much lifeless.

Well, no, we dont really know this. There are still some spots in the solar system where life could exist, and Mars is still one of the contenders.
Its also not just about "finding" life. Its about not wiping it out if it does exist.

We could find interesting life on Mars, and then have our imported bacteria eat it like its candy.

Personally though, I dont think there is life beyond earth. And my reasoning stems from the Fermi paradox.
If life was easy to find, there would be aliens everywhere we look. We dont see them, so they are not there, so life does not form easily.

And colonising venus will be way harder than Mars

There could be lots of life beyond Earth, just maybe not intelligent life that could leave a mark for us to have seen. The universe is pretty big and despite all our accomplishments, we didn't really leave any signal that could be detected until about 60 years ago (earlier radio signals would have been drowned out by our atmosphere). So our existence is only broadcast to possible aliens in a 60 light year radius (and inverse square law probably fragments that)

Also, aliens may have been gallivanting around the galaxy (or other galaxies) millions of years ago. The odds that 2 civilizations in close proximity at similar levels of development is highly improbable and just a poofteenths chance away from impossible (though in an 'infinite' universe it has to exist somewhere). For all we know there was some form of intelligent life in our galactic backyard long ago but just like every civilisation, it fell

The universe also still has trillions of years where it can harbour life as we know it. For humanity to survive or at the very least leave a legacy, it should launch seeds of life in every direction and let 'panspermia' do the work. For all we know we are the legacy of an alien race ourselves.

I dont think it matters that we have 'humans' live long into the future. If we can seed another world with the building blocks of life, and that world goes on to create life of its own, that's good enough for me It doesn't matter if this life will never know of their origin and be able to thank us. Just the thought that humanity has a legacy of that scale that could last millions or billions of years past our use by date is awesome enough.

 The universe is pretty big and despite all our accomplishments, we didn't really leave any signal that could be detected until about 60 years ago (earlier radio signals would have been drowned out by our atmosphere). So our existence is only broadcast to possible aliens in a 60 light year radius (and inverse square law probably fragments that)

This is only true if other aliens are looking for technologically developed races. If they are just looking for signs of life, our atmosphere has been a give away far away enough that any star in our galaxy could detect it with big enough telescopes.

The odds that 2 civilizations in close proximity at similar levels of development is highly improbable and just a poofteenths chance away from impossible

Unless you consider that one of the emergent properties of intelligent life, is to create advanced self replicating AI bots, that seek out other life forms that could pose a threat to their host planet in an indeterminable time, and destroy them. Such a von neumann machine would not know or care that his originating species no longer exists, because communication over these distances is not viable. So it just goes eating all life.

It could be out there heading for us. Or, we could be the ones to create such a demon. Who knows.

Quote from: Wolvaccine on February 20, 2023, 11:11:29 AM

 The universe is pretty big and despite all our accomplishments, we didn't really leave any signal that could be detected until about 60 years ago (earlier radio signals would have been drowned out by our atmosphere). So our existence is only broadcast to possible aliens in a 60 light year radius (and inverse square law probably fragments that)

This is only true if other aliens are looking for technologically developed races. If they are just looking for signs of life, our atmosphere has been a give away far away enough that any star in our galaxy could detect it with big enough telescopes.

Quote

The odds that 2 civilizations in close proximity at similar levels of development is highly improbable and just a poofteenths chance away from impossible

Unless you consider that one of the emergent properties of intelligent life, is to create advanced self replicating AI bots, that seek out other life forms that could pose a threat to their host planet in an indeterminable time, and destroy them. Such a von neumann machine would not know or care that his originating species no longer exists, because communication over these distances is not viable. So it just goes eating all life.

It could be out there heading for us. Or, we could be the ones to create such a demon. Who knows.

The universe is still 'young' and for all we know, we could be among the first to be 'intelligent' (as in capable of understanding our place in the universe and develop tools to leave our planet). We have ourselves detected exo planets with atmospheres that could harbour life. Even Saturn's moon Titan could have some kind of life. In a few billion years when the sun gets hotter and brighter and the 'goldilocks' zone shifts to Saturn's zone, it might just spawn some. Not sure if it gets to an intelligent stage

Given the octillions of numbers of planets in our observable universe alone I think life is plentiful - at least has potential. Just give the universe and these planets more time to evolve. (and the Von Neumann probes more time to get to us )

In the meantime - we should start seeding more worlds and asteroids / comets even. How cool would it have been if we landed a probe with a cache of our Svalbard seed vault and other building blocks for life on Oumuamua).

Its also possible we're in a nature reserve.  Where aliens are basically keeping any other aliens from interfering with us. 

We also look for signs of life as we know it.  Technology and signals as we know them.
For all we know, we're being flooded with signals in the gamma spectrum instead of radio.  Or the radio signals match a star or something.

We just have no idea.

Its also possible we're in a nature reserve.  Where aliens are basically keeping any other aliens from interfering with us. 

My theory is that stupidity really is a crime and the Earth is an interstellar penal colony (much like the fictional continent of Australia).  UFOs aren't abducting humans as much as they're dropping off new convicts and doing the occasional health and safety examination.