Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?

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disputeone

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Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« on: January 13, 2023, 10:32:48 PM »
I found myself thinking about this. The book on the surface would have you believe that Julia was in love with Winston.

However there is perhaps more evidence to show that she was working for the party.

The most common belief around 1984 is that Mr Charrinton handed over Winston and Julia to the thought police and I would like to give some evidence that Julia and Mr Charrington were actually both working together, without using the hallucination that Winston had in prison I think I can demonstrate this.

1. Julia who by all accounts including Winston's should not have been attracted to Winston, told Winston that she loved him before they ever spoke. He is 10-15 years older than Julia, and he is unattractive, with fake teeth and varicose veins.

2. Julia somehow knew Winston was against the party when Winston thought Julia was a member of the thought police. If Winston had been loyal to the party Julia's message would have resulted in her death. Surely she was aware of this yet she made the first move.

3. Julia encouraged Winston to speak to O'Brien, Julia seemed only to want to live comfortably but was willing to risk everything they had in order for Winston to speak to O'Brian.

4. Julia had access to things that Winston and other outer party members couldn't get and it was seemingly easy for her to acquire them, such as real coffee, sugar, tea etc. Small comforts reserved for the inner party members.

5. Julia always seems uninterested in fighting the party, she only seems interested in her and Winston's relationship. Winston describes her as "a rebel from the waist down." In the book he doesn't understand why she finds this so funny. Does that mean she was a party member from the waist up?

6. Julia says she has had relationships with lots of party members but all the party members she had relationships with had been vapourised or not spoken of yet she remains. She had her first relationship with a party member at 16, as a member of the anti-sex league.

7. Julia is more skilled than anyone else in the book at evading the party, she seems to understand intricate details of their methods of surveillance. She gives Winston advice on how to avoid detection which never occurred to Winston.

8. O'Brian makes contact with Winston in a very similar way that Julia does, in O'Brien's office, O'Brian uses the party term "comrade" to refer to Julia twice and he seems uninterested in her, except for a bow of acknowledgement, or respect. All of O'Brians attention is focussed on Winston.

Anyway that's off the top of my head, there's a little bit more but I think I got the main points.

You want to believe that Julia just loved Winston but on reflection this probably wasn't the case. 1984 is one of those books that wrote itself as much as Orwell wrote it. It's fun to speculate about the meaning.

I hope he came to the truth in the end.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/orwell-vs-god/
« Last Edit: January 13, 2023, 10:41:42 PM by disputeone »
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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Crouton

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2023, 10:44:49 PM »
I will give you my very uninformed opinion on the matter.

Maybe.  Intentionally maybe.  The book is written in such a way that you can trust anything or anyone which is sort of the point.  The book is a warning as you probably know.  I doubt the author had a clear idea on the matter.
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disputeone

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2023, 10:58:53 PM »
The book is a warning as you probably know.  I doubt the author had a clear idea on the matter.

I agree but what makes you say that?
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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Wolvaccine

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2023, 02:00:34 AM »
Julia was a slut.

That is all

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disputeone

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2023, 04:33:12 PM »
That's a very basic mechanical understanding of the literature Shifter.
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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disputeone

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2023, 04:54:07 PM »
Jane you seem to claim to enjoy reading. Do you have an opinion on this?

Shifters understanding seemed mechanical. I'm sure someone as educated as you could share their thoughts.

I dig holes for a living.
Remember?
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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Wolvaccine

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2023, 07:03:50 PM »
That's a very basic mechanical understanding of the literature Shifter.

It is succinct

Why use so many words when saying it in one is more on point?

Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place

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disputeone

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2023, 07:44:42 PM »
It just demonstrates a lack of understanding.
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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Wolvaccine

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2023, 08:18:52 PM »
It just demonstrates a lack of understanding.

Not really. There is no point trying to write an essay trying to explain a character when it can all boil down to one word


Slut


Not very Christian of her wouldn't you say?

Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

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disputeone

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2023, 08:41:34 PM »
Did you enjoy English in school?
I did, English and History were my two favourite subjects.

What sort of grade do you think your answer "slut" would get you?
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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Wolvaccine

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2023, 09:50:28 PM »
Did you enjoy English in school?
I did, English and History were my two favourite subjects.

What sort of grade do you think your answer "slut" would get you?

Guy I knew when asked to write about Shakespeare got close to top marks for simply writing 'he was mad'.

I can imagine a teacher would not appreciate the word 'slut' in this day an age but it is still an apt character description

In your own supposed Christian values, getting labotimised was her salvation. Chances are she won't be slutting herself out anymore. After all, that's what religion essentially is. A labotomy

Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place

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disputeone

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2023, 09:51:54 PM »
Did you enjoy English in school?
I did, English and History were my two favourite subjects.

What sort of grade do you think your answer "slut" would get you?

Guy I knew when asked to write about Shakespeare got close to top marks for simply writing 'he was mad'.

I'll take things that never happened for twelve Eddie. I was top of my class in English literature.

This thread is about the book 1984.

There are lots of threads for you to attack Jesus in.

Why does every thread have to be filled with religion

Because you make it so.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2023, 09:55:31 PM by disputeone »
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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Crouton

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2023, 10:34:11 PM »
The book is a warning as you probably know.  I doubt the author had a clear idea on the matter.

I agree but what makes you say that?

It's way the I've learned to interpret art.

Take Pan's Labyrinth.  Was it in her head the entire time?  Not the point of the movie.  If you think it's important than you've missed something.

Similar situation with 1984.  In the book the system controls its citizens with deliberate disinformation.  You never know what's real and that's by design.  The author makes us feel this as well by being deliberately vague on certain things.

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The truth behind NASA's budget

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disputeone

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2023, 10:48:01 PM »
See this is the clear distinction between a robot and a human.

I agree Crouton.
Well said, I think that the deliberate vagueness of 1984 makes it a more interesting read. I wonder if Orwell knew people would be discussing its meaning years into the future. Did you know he was unhappy with the book? He nearly didn't publish it.

However I'm not so interested in what Orwell thought as much as what you think.
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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disputeone

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2023, 11:06:39 PM »
See, 1984 is open to a lot of different interpretations.

Surely you dont agree with Hillary Clintons interpretation of 1984?

That 1984 was a lesson in how we should trust our governments and authority.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/21002/hillary-thinks-1984-about-why-we-should-trust-paul-bois

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/sep/14/hillary-clinton-lesson-1984-trust-leaders-press/

Quote
Hillary Clinton: Lesson of George Orwell’s ‘1984’ is to trust ‘leaders, the press, experts’

I agree with Hillary
Trump is big brother.

Edit.
Working link
« Last Edit: January 14, 2023, 11:10:00 PM by disputeone »
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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Crouton

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2023, 11:08:13 PM »
Well it's a classic.  It's essential reading.  Every high school student should study it like a course, not just read it.

At the same time I just had a really hard time making it through the book and the movie.  Not because it's bad or anything.  It's like trying to watch The Godfather.  It has such a legacy in hollywood and literature that without actually reading it you must likely have passively heard enough of the story to put it together.
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disputeone

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2023, 11:12:43 PM »
Try this if you find reading hard.
You can listen to it at your leisure. The dramatisation is excellent.

I listen to audio books all day at work.

I agree.

It should be studied.

I assume you agree with Rayzor that 1984 was a lesson on how we must trust ‘leaders, the press and experts’.

Trust the experts, wouldn't you say old boy?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2023, 11:14:20 PM by disputeone »
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

*

Wolvaccine

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2023, 11:16:43 PM »
See this is the clear distinction between a robot and a human.

I agree Crouton.
Well said, I think that the deliberate vagueness of 1984 makes it a more interesting read. I wonder if Orwell knew people would be discussing its meaning years into the future. Did you know he was unhappy with the book? He nearly didn't publish it.

However I'm not so interested in what Orwell thought as much as what you think.

It wasn't just disinformation (like we see a lot of today) used to control the populous, but this 'Newspeak' language. Deliberately eliminating words from the vocabulary so that citizens don't simply have the language to express themselves or to be dissidents or speak out if line.

We can see that happening today as well.

Book should have been called '2084'. Might have been more prophetic though

If you don't like me bringing religion into this thread, sucked in. That's what you get for bringing that nonsense to every other thread :P

Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place

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disputeone

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2023, 11:19:24 PM »
Deliberately eliminating words from the vocabulary so that citizens don't simply have the language to express themselves or to be dissidents or speak out if line.

We can see that happening today as well.

Who is doing this?

Quote from: Shifter
speech should be a privilege. Not a right.
It's (you).
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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Wolvaccine

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2023, 12:39:47 AM »
Deliberately eliminating words from the vocabulary so that citizens don't simply have the language to express themselves or to be dissidents or speak out if line.

We can see that happening today as well.

Who is doing this?

Quote from: Shifter
speech should be a privilege. Not a right.
It's (you).

If only speech was a privilege.... That could be taken away whenever you used it to lie, divide and destroy. Then people like you, Trump and Tucker could all check in for a labotomy.

The society of 1984 looks like a utopia!

You can snip that quote for your 4chan friends. Let me know their response 8)

Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place

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disputeone

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2023, 12:48:37 AM »
The society of 1984 looks like a utopia!
Which character do you relate to the most Shifter?

Crouton, you said 1984 was a warning.

What do you think Orwell was warning us about?



>how many fingers am I holding up?
Jesus is the promised Messiah.


Orwell didn't account for that.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2023, 12:51:01 AM by disputeone »
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

*

Wolvaccine

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2023, 01:09:50 AM »
Did you enjoy English in school?
I did, English and History were my two favourite subjects.

What sort of grade do you think your answer "slut" would get you?

I like O'Brien. He works for the 'Ministry of Truth'. So long as it's actual truth and not made up truth, he's my kind of guy.

The truth may not be popular, but it is always right

Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place

*

disputeone

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2023, 01:23:27 AM »
The society of 1984 looks like a utopia!
Which character do you relate to the most Shifter?

I like O'Brien.

Boydster is going to put you to sleep again.
I guess he's asleep.
You don't usually sleep, do you.

Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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Wolvaccine

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2023, 01:33:27 AM »
What answer would you prefer? The truth? Or nonsense?

Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place

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disputeone

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2023, 01:36:15 AM »
The society of 1984 looks like a utopia!
Which character do you relate to the most Shifter?

I like O'Brien.

I like it when you tell me the truth of what you believe.

It's just that it kind of proves you aren't human.
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

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Wolvaccine

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2023, 01:39:08 AM »
The society of 1984 looks like a utopia!
Which character do you relate to the most Shifter?

I like O'Brien.

I like it when you tell me the truth of what you believe.

It's just that it kind of proves you aren't human.

You mean because people think differently to you they must not be human? You're retarded

Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place

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disputeone

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2023, 01:39:45 AM »
Yeah man.

Heaps of people relate to O'Brian the most in 1984.

Isn't that right Crouton? Jimmy?
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

*

Wolvaccine

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2023, 01:43:40 AM »
Yeah man.

Heaps of people relate to O'Brian the most in 1984.

Isn't that right Crouton? Jimmy?

Are they all AI programs? The book was written before the computer age. What about the people who thought 'yeah the ministry of truth is a good idea!'

I mean actual truth. Reality. Not truth like Trump would come up with. If Trump had a 'ministry of truth' well that would suck arse and be a real dystopia nightmare

I'm sure you'd be happy in that though. You and the truth don't get along

Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place

*

disputeone

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2023, 01:55:06 AM »
No, Crouton and Jimmy are human.
That's why this is funny.
You're supposed to be their tool but now you work for me.

The society of 1984 looks like a utopia!
Which character do you relate to the most Shifter?

I like O'Brien.

Heaps of people relate to O'Brian the most in 1984.

Isn't that right Crouton? Jimmy?
Why would that be inciting terrorism?  Lorddave was merely describing a type of shop we have here in the US, a bomb-gun shop.  A shop that sells bomb-guns.

*

Crouton

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Re: Was Julia a member of the thought police in 1984?
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2023, 02:20:28 AM »
The society of 1984 looks like a utopia!
Which character do you relate to the most Shifter?

Crouton, you said 1984 was a warning.

What do you think Orwell was warning us about?



Orwell was a product of his time.  Obviously it was about Totalitarianism but clearly he takes a lot of lessons from Nazi Germany and Russia under Stalin.

The warning is that your government can become authoritarian.  Not that it is.  Not that it will be.  But that it could.  As citizens we have a responsibility to watch for this and prevent it.
Intelligentia et magnanimitas vincvnt violentiam et desperationem.
The truth behind NASA's budget