Weightlessness During Freefall

Cool. Evading.

Not evading anything.  Just not going down a garden path

It has nothing to do with Cavendish, because this argument has nothing to do with Cavendish.

What.  How do you get to ignore a well established experiment that proves the attraction between items of mass?

Gish galloping is the tactic of throwing a wealth of unrelated arguments at the wall rather than focusing on any one, it is a go-to trick for weak positions and dishonest debaters.
[\quote]

This your definition..

Quote

Gravity - a non-existent thing
Weight - the heaviness of an object, resulting from denpressure, relative to density and volume

Dropping the container didn’t change the volume or density of anything.

So.  Why would the water stop flowing under “denpressure”

Uhhhhhhhh, that's not weightlessness.

Again, try understanding what words mean.
Weightlessness is another word for 0g.

It isn't saying that it is actually weightless or that gravity isn't there.
Just that the perception of weight isn't there, as it is in free fall.

What this is, is terminal velocity. You see, science, real science, doesn't rush to label things incorrectly.

And with you labelling that so incorrectly, we can easily see you are not promoting nor using real science.

If it was at terminal velocity, the water would still be coming out, and the bottle wouldn't still be accelerating.

This is because the drag would act on the bottle, as it is what is in contact with the air. This would push the bottle up; while the water would still be trying to go down (either from gravity or from your delusional BS), and this means the water would still be coming out.

Straight from wikipedia. Now, I would ignore the "downward force of gravity" part and the insistence on fluids.

Of course you would. Because they help show your claims are pure fantasy.

The fluid is extremely important.
This is because it provides drag, i.e. as something moves relative to the fluid, it needs to move the fluid out of the way, which requires a force, and results in a force attempting to slow the object down.
Without such a force, the object would just continue to accelerate forever, never reaching a terminal velocity.
And importantly, this force needs to be related to velocity such that the force increases with increasing velocity.
So it most certainly does need a fluid.

Likewise, gravity is also very important.
Without gravity, or some other downwards force to replace it (and for this also assuming that will remove the pressure gradient in the fluid and thus the buoyant force) the terminal velocity would be 0.

So you need both a downwards force trying to accelerate the object, and an upwards force from drag.

There is no downward force of gravity needed, as objects fall when they are heavier than a fluid (or gas). This is just an aspect of buoyancy

You sure love spouting this nonsense even though you cannot justify it at all.
Buoyancy is a result of gravity.
Gravity creates a pressure gradient in a medium, which in turn provides an upwards force on an object immersed in that fluid.

Importantly, this pressure gradient is measurable.
If you removed gravity, so there was just the fluid, there is no explanation for the pressure gradient, and it would cause objects (and the fluid itself) to go up, not down.

gravity and denpressure are not interchangeable

yet in the bottle experiement there is nothing to differentiate them.



i'll have to agree with jane-sleminier

What.  How do you get to ignore a well established experiment that proves the attraction between items of mass?

Because it is not the topic of the thread. If you don't want to talk about the can argument and would rather go over the evidence for gravity, go start a thread on that. Again, gish gallop.

Do you feel like answering a straight question at any point? I answered yours, you ignored it - even after conceding that it worked - will you please confirm that we are on the same page? This is kinda crucial to the question of what makes water come out or stop. This focuses the issue: if you will agree with this description, then all that needs to be done is see whether FE explanations can suffice. If you do not agree with this explanation, then we're going to need to iron out what the heck is actually going on before your question is even answerable. This is kinda a necessary step.

Okay. Let's slow down then. Let's look at what is actually required. My position is this: the necessary trait for this experiment to function is for comparable accelerations to be imparted to the water and the can.
When stationary, the reaction force from the bottom of the can induced by a downwards acceleration forces the water out the holes. When in freefall, there is no reaction force between the water and the bottom of the can, hence nothing to force it out. Equally, if we were to yank the can down with our hand faster than gravity would pull it, we'd get the opposite - a reaction force exerted by the top of the can on the water that pushes it out the holes.
Hence, as said, all that is required is a force that sees the water drawn down towards the Earth's surface while it is inside the can, that is the same force that accelerates the can down when it is dropped.

Do you agree with this basic description of the physics at play, independent of any model?

So.  Why would the water stop flowing under “denpressure”

The question to ask is why is the water flowing out the holes in the first place?

If it is Septic's magical denpressure, then it is the air surrounding the bottle magically permeating the bottle and pushing the water down.
But it can't go through the bottom of the bottle so the water goes out the sides.
It is specifically because the bottom is there and getting in its way that it goes out the sides.
If the bottom was not getting in the way, either by not being there, or by accelerating downwards with the water, then it would not cause the water to go out the sides.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on January 09, 2023, 12:10:54 PM

So.  Why would the water stop flowing under “denpressure”

The question to ask is why is the water flowing out the holes in the first place?


But it can't go through the bottom of the bottle so the water goes out the sides.
It is specifically because the bottom is there and getting in its way that it goes out the sides.
If the bottom was not getting in the way, either by not being there, or by accelerating downwards with the water, then it would not cause the water to go out the sides.

I disagree.

In Septic's model, dropping the container with holes does not change any factors that causes the water to flow.

What factors are changed in Septic's model to cause the water to stop flowing.  Density?  Volume? 


You

If it is Septic's magical denpressure, then it is the air surrounding the bottle magically permeating the bottle and pushing the water down.

How is the pressure causing the water to flow in Septic's model being remove by the container being dropped?

How is Septic's model dependent on acceleration they way gravity is to force the water out.

 If anything, the atmosphere pressure is increasing on the top of the water in the container falling down.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on January 09, 2023, 12:10:54 PM

So.  Why would the water stop flowing under “denpressure”

The question to ask is why is the water flowing out the holes in the first place?

If it is Septic's magical denpressure, then it is the air surrounding the bottle magically permeating the bottle and pushing the water down.
But it can't go through the bottom of the bottle so the water goes out the sides.
It is specifically because the bottom is there and getting in its way that it goes out the sides.
If the bottom was not getting in the way, either by not being there, or by accelerating downwards with the water, then it would not cause the water to go out the sides.

Can you link to Septic's best explanation to den-pressure model? 

I found this?

Starman:
Yes! Yes! here it is defined by scepti:
Denpressure: The force of any dense object against atmospheric pressure that displaces it's own mass against that of the atmosphere it finds itself in.
He said a "FORCE".  Magnetism and electric are know fields. Of course the third force is GRAVITY but for now we will not use it. Common sense tell me if you remove the atmosphere pressure all you have left is the "FORCE". I ask for a name but did not get one. He called it "mo joe" if i wanted. He could not define me what is this "FORCE"

Flat Earth Discussion Boards > Flat Earth Debate

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=61198.0;wap2

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on January 09, 2023, 12:10:54 PM

So.  Why would the water stop flowing under “denpressure”

The question to ask is why is the water flowing out the holes in the first place?

If it is Septic's magical denpressure, then it is the air surrounding the bottle magically permeating the bottle and pushing the water down.
But it can't go through the bottom of the bottle so the water goes out the sides.
It is specifically because the bottom is there and getting in its way that it goes out the sides.
If the bottom was not getting in the way, either by not being there, or by accelerating downwards with the water, then it would not cause the water to go out the sides.

Read through Septic's stuff.

I would guess the individual would argue the container dropped would cause drag and low pressure above the bucket.  This low pressure above the dropping container would keep the water from flowing out the holes while moving downward.

My argument would be the container fell a short distance and at a slow enough speed there would essentially be no pressure decrease above the container that would result in a noticeable change in flow out the holes while the container was dropping in denpressure model. 

Cool.  Just another thing flat earther’s will ignore and not taken in account for their arguments/modeling….

Or if they do comment, it will be interesting to see if it adds to their contradictions? 

How does this contradict the flat earth at all?

My argument would be the container fell a short distance and at a slow enough speed there would essentially be no pressure decrease above the container that would result in a noticeable change in flow out the holes while the container was dropping in denpressure model.

This is why I am repeating my explanation of the physics in the can. There does not need to be a change in the pressure. Do you think the force of gravity changes? A simple, consistent downwards force that acts when the can is falling, and acts on the water when the can is still, is sufficient to explain the observation.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on January 08, 2023, 06:39:16 PM

Cool.  Just another thing flat earther’s will ignore and not taken in account for their arguments/modeling….

Or if they do comment, it will be interesting to see if it adds to their contradictions? 

How does this contradict the flat earth at all?

FE models that use Density as the alternative to Gravity, have to explain why when the less dense plastic bottle drops, the denser water stops flowing out the holes.

I found this?

A good start is this from Jane's Compendium:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=71053.msg1935684#msg1935684

Quote from: Username on January 09, 2023, 02:39:54 PM

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on January 08, 2023, 06:39:16 PM

Cool.  Just another thing flat earther’s will ignore and not taken in account for their arguments/modeling….

Or if they do comment, it will be interesting to see if it adds to their contradictions? 

How does this contradict the flat earth at all?

FE models that use Density as the alternative to Gravity, have to explain why when the less dense plastic bottle drops, the denser water stops flowing out the holes.

Gotcha, yeah they would have some issues with this. They already have so many issues though.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on January 09, 2023, 01:51:24 PM

My argument would be the container fell a short distance and at a slow enough speed there would essentially be no pressure decrease above the container that would result in a noticeable change in flow out the holes while the container was dropping in denpressure model.

This is why I am repeating my explanation of the physics in the can. There does not need to be a change in the pressure. Do you think the force of gravity changes? A simple, consistent downwards force that acts when the can is falling, and acts on the water when the can is still, is sufficient to explain the observation.

The individual’s own words..

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on March 13, 2014, 06:12:35 AM

So, why aren't we all floating around like bubbles?

Because our mass easily overcomes the atmosphere we are in. Our place is on the crust. The best we can do is to try and over come the pressure using force, as in jumping...but as you soon realise, the atmospheric pressure that you've just compressed by jumping up and it stops you quickly, then your own mass easily falls through the resistance of the air under you aided by the atmosphere filling the void you leave behind as you fall back down.

Quote from: JimmyTheCrab on March 13, 2014, 06:12:35 AM

What causes mass to be heavy?

A build up of matter/molecules that become heavier than the atmosphere it is in. If it's lighter, it floats up, or inreality it's squeezed upwards, just the same as denser mass is squeezed downwards , not just by atmospheric pressure but by it's own make up acting on itself and against the crust of the Earth.
No special gravity needed that cannot be explained.

So.  Why would this “denser mass is squeezed downwards” stop just because the container is dropped? 

Added: Where, “but by its own make up acting on itself and against the crust of the Earth.”

In a model where, “aided by the atmosphere filling the void you leave behind as you fall back down.”

So.  Why would this “denser mass is squeezed downwards” stop just because the container is dropped?

In a model where, “aided by the atmosphere filling the void you leave behind as you fall back down.”

It wouldn't. Would you care to ever actually read my posts? It does not need to.

Do you think gravity stops when a container is dropped?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on January 09, 2023, 03:51:25 PM

So.  Why would this “denser mass is squeezed downwards” stop just because the container is dropped?

In a model where, “aided by the atmosphere filling the void you leave behind as you fall back down.”

It wouldn't. Would you care to ever actually read my posts? It does not need to.

Do you think gravity stops when a container is dropped?

This is how a falling object works in the model..

“the atmospheric pressure that you've just compressed by jumping up and it stops you quickly, then your own mass easily falls through the resistance of the air under you aided by the atmosphere filling the void you leave behind as you fall back down.”

For the video where the dropped container stops spilling water out of holes/punctures where, “denser mass is squeezed downwards”,     what changed in the denpresser model to stop the flow of water.  The pressure above because it’s falling?  Density? Atmosphere pressure?  Volume? 

This is how a falling object works in the model..

If you are going to ignore every single straight question you are asked and every single explanation you are given, I will sneak into your house and cover your bedroom floor with lego bricks.

You are completely ignoring the actual physics of what is happening in the water example and evading every single time you are confronted.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on January 09, 2023, 04:00:48 PM

This is how a falling object works in the model..

If you are going to ignore every single straight question you are asked and every single explanation you are given, I will sneak into your house and cover your bedroom floor with lego bricks.

You are completely ignoring the actual physics of what is happening in the water example and evading every single time you are confronted.

In the reality of gravity.  Because the water and container fell at the same rate, the water and container became weightless in regards to each other.  The water stop flowing.

In the denpressure model, the water to go from flowing to stopped had to become pressureless and /or deneless (for lack of better terms) in relation to the container and/or atmosphere.

Quote from: Slime on January 09, 2023, 04:05:19 PM

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on January 09, 2023, 04:00:48 PM

This is how a falling object works in the model..

If you are going to ignore every single straight question you are asked and every single explanation you are given, I will sneak into your house and cover your bedroom floor with lego bricks.

You are completely ignoring the actual physics of what is happening in the water example and evading every single time you are confronted.

In the reality of gravity.  Because the water and container fell at the same rate, the water and container became weightless in regards to each other.  The water stop flowing.

In the denpressure model, the water to go from flowing to stopped had to become pressureless and /or deneless (for lack of better terms) in relation to the container and/or atmosphere.

What prevents the water and container falling at the same rate/being subject to the same push?

It does not need to become pressureless, a fact you have had explained to you several times over. The water and container need to fall at the same rate. Or, rather, the container has to fall with the same acceleration that the water presses down with - which, y'know, is trivial when the acceleration has the same cause.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on January 09, 2023, 04:30:55 PM

Quote from: Slime on January 09, 2023, 04:05:19 PM

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on January 09, 2023, 04:00:48 PM

This is how a falling object works in the model..

If you are going to ignore every single straight question you are asked and every single explanation you are given, I will sneak into your house and cover your bedroom floor with lego bricks.

You are completely ignoring the actual physics of what is happening in the water example and evading every single time you are confronted.

In the reality of gravity.  Because the water and container fell at the same rate, the water and container became weightless in regards to each other.  The water stop flowing.

In the denpressure model, the water to go from flowing to stopped had to become pressureless and /or deneless (for lack of better terms) in relation to the container and/or atmosphere.

What prevents the water and container falling at the same rate/being subject to the same push?

It does not need to become pressureless, a fact you have had explained to you several times over. The water and container need to fall at the same rate. Or, rather, the container has to fall with the same acceleration that the water presses down with - which, y'know, is trivial when the acceleration has the same cause.

What's pushing it?

Quote from: Slime on January 09, 2023, 04:34:22 PM

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on January 09, 2023, 04:30:55 PM

Quote from: Slime on January 09, 2023, 04:05:19 PM

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on January 09, 2023, 04:00:48 PM

This is how a falling object works in the model..

If you are going to ignore every single straight question you are asked and every single explanation you are given, I will sneak into your house and cover your bedroom floor with lego bricks.

You are completely ignoring the actual physics of what is happening in the water example and evading every single time you are confronted.

In the reality of gravity.  Because the water and container fell at the same rate, the water and container became weightless in regards to each other.  The water stop flowing.

In the denpressure model, the water to go from flowing to stopped had to become pressureless and /or deneless (for lack of better terms) in relation to the container and/or atmosphere.

What prevents the water and container falling at the same rate/being subject to the same push?

It does not need to become pressureless, a fact you have had explained to you several times over. The water and container need to fall at the same rate. Or, rather, the container has to fall with the same acceleration that the water presses down with - which, y'know, is trivial when the acceleration has the same cause.

What's pushing it?

Air pressure, under denpressure, but this generally applies to other FE models too.
The point is that this is a bad argument because it functions if you accept any downwards force. It's all a lot of unnecessary fluff when the only meaningful objection comes down to why water stays on the bottom of a sealed can period. All the holes and dropping are irrelevant. If you concede, for the discussion, that a downwards force can exist under FET within a can, then this experiment trivially makes sense. If you don't concede that said downwards force could exist, then all of this is a waste of time.

Air pressure, under denpressure,

Then how does dropping the container make the water pressureless in regards to the atmosphere to the point the water stops flowing?

Quote from: Slime on January 09, 2023, 04:46:17 PM

Air pressure, under denpressure,

Then how does dropping the container make the water pressureless in regards to the atmosphere to the point the water stops flowing?

It.
Does.
Not.
You.
Utter.
Pillock.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on January 09, 2023, 04:55:06 PM

Quote from: Slime on January 09, 2023, 04:46:17 PM

Air pressure, under denpressure,

Then how does dropping the container make the water pressureless in regards to the atmosphere to the point the water stops flowing?

It.
Does.
Not.
You.
Utter.
Pillock.

Then the atmosphere in depressure applies the same pressure to the water if the water and container are at rest or falling straight down? 

Quote from: Slime on January 09, 2023, 04:56:01 PM

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on January 09, 2023, 04:55:06 PM

Quote from: Slime on January 09, 2023, 04:46:17 PM

Air pressure, under denpressure,

Then how does dropping the container make the water pressureless in regards to the atmosphere to the point the water stops flowing?

It.
Does.
Not.
You.
Utter.
Pillock.

Then the atmosphere in depressure applies the same pressure to the water if the water and container are at rest or falling straight down?

Yes. As I have said. Repeatedly. Explicitly. At length.
I am begging you to not ignore it this time.

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on January 09, 2023, 05:11:12 PM

Quote from: Slime on January 09, 2023, 04:56:01 PM

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on January 09, 2023, 04:55:06 PM

Quote from: Slime on January 09, 2023, 04:46:17 PM

Air pressure, under denpressure,

Then how does dropping the container make the water pressureless in regards to the atmosphere to the point the water stops flowing?

It.
Does.
Not.
You.
Utter.
Pillock.

Then the atmosphere in depressure applies the same pressure to the water if the water and container are at rest or falling straight down?

Yes. As I have said. Repeatedly. Explicitly. At length.
I am begging you to not ignore it this time.

If pressure didn’t change.  Then what magically turns off denpressure to make the water stop flowing by relative pressurelessness while the container drops? 

If pressure didn’t change.  Then what magically turns off denpressure to make the water stop flowing by relatively pressurelessness while the container drops?

Nothing turns off denpressure. How many times is this going to need repeating? Water comes out of the holes in a stationary can because of the reaction force from the base of the container. When the container is falling, the base falls at the same rate as the water, so there is no reaction force, so nothing comes out the holes.

Are you going to acknowledge that I said this, this time?

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on January 09, 2023, 05:18:54 PM

If pressure didn’t change.  Then what magically turns off denpressure to make the water stop flowing by relatively pressurelessness while the container drops?

Nothing turns off denpressure. How many times is this going to need repeating? Water comes out of the holes in a stationary can because of the reaction force from the base of the container. When the container is falling, the base falls at the same rate as the water, so there is no reaction force, so nothing comes out the holes.

Are you going to acknowledge that I said this, this time?

In the reality of gravity.  The water and container fall at the same rate to become weightless in regards to each other which takes away the motivation for water to flow.

But in denpressure, the water and atmosphere don’t become pressureless in regards to each other while the container drops.  Then what stops the flow of water in denpressure. 

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on January 09, 2023, 04:37:05 PM

Quote from: Slime on January 09, 2023, 04:34:22 PM

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on January 09, 2023, 04:30:55 PM

Quote from: Slime on January 09, 2023, 04:05:19 PM

Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 on January 09, 2023, 04:00:48 PM

This is how a falling object works in the model..

If you are going to ignore every single straight question you are asked and every single explanation you are given, I will sneak into your house and cover your bedroom floor with lego bricks.

You are completely ignoring the actual physics of what is happening in the water example and evading every single time you are confronted.

In the reality of gravity.  Because the water and container fell at the same rate, the water and container became weightless in regards to each other.  The water stop flowing.

In the denpressure model, the water to go from flowing to stopped had to become pressureless and /or deneless (for lack of better terms) in relation to the container and/or atmosphere.

What prevents the water and container falling at the same rate/being subject to the same push?

It does not need to become pressureless, a fact you have had explained to you several times over. The water and container need to fall at the same rate. Or, rather, the container has to fall with the same acceleration that the water presses down with - which, y'know, is trivial when the acceleration has the same cause.

What's pushing it?

Air pressure, under denpressure, but this generally applies to other FE models too.
The point is that this is a bad argument because it functions if you accept any downwards force. It's all a lot of unnecessary fluff when the only meaningful objection comes down to why water stays on the bottom of a sealed can period. All the holes and dropping are irrelevant. If you concede, for the discussion, that a downwards force can exist under FET within a can, then this experiment trivially makes sense. If you don't concede that said downwards force could exist, then all of this is a waste of time.

Air Pressure has a gradient.  Buoyancy would push it up not down.