Cool Mission?

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JackBlack

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #540 on: February 10, 2023, 11:50:13 AM »
These are published measurements by a scientific journal. They wish for you to see the world a certain way so that you can buy merch.
They don't really care what you think.
Those selling merch typically have noting to do with the scientific discoveries.

No outer space hype, no merch. No tax donations to the space program either.
Look at all the merch for fantasy, like Harry Potter.
I don't see people going around claiming Harry Potter is real.

When I was in science (horticulture) class in college, and realized they wanted me to make a graph of the growth of two sets of plants. I realized I'd not actually made measurements. I quickly drew out a graph showing the rough growth of these plants. I passed with a totally fake graph.
Just because you are incredibly dishonest, and willing to blatantly lie to everyone, doesn't mean that everyone is.

More importantly, our knowledge of space isn't based upon what 1 person said.
It is based upon the observations of countless people. That would require all of them to have lied, and lied the same.

I could tell you that two radios bounced back a signal, and I was sure that it went this speed. I add a decimal point so you're convinced. Only I'm not convinced. Because all of this translates to merch.
You mean usable items, like handheld radios for short communicating, radio and TV broadcasts, wireless internet, wireless phones, RADAR, and so on.

But because it doesn't fit your delusional fantasy, you reject it.
You refuse to do the measurements yourself, because then you can't say you were lying about them without just further showing how dishonest you are.

This equal speed theory is endorsed by NASA.
Again, the waves have equal speed of propagation. That doesn't mean the data rate is the same.

How many times will you cling to this dishonest BS, before you finally grow a shred of integrity?

I typed in NASA electromagnetic spectrum, I got no less than eight articles of propaganda.
Propaganda or reality that you hate?

And this is why I don't trust statistics.
So you don't trust stats, because you are incredibly dishonest and willing to blatantly lie to everyone?

This is why I have told you to measure it yourself.

Facts? No. We don't have any facts verifying that electromagnetic waves are at the same rate. We have statistics.
No, we have plenty of facts.
Facts you hate, so you dismiss as lies.
Facts you refuse to verify by performing experiments yourself because you then lose the excuse that someone else is lying.

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Stash

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #541 on: February 10, 2023, 12:37:44 PM »
They're not gambling at all.

They're using your money to bet, and they are certain you won't call their bluff.

Facts? No. We don't have any facts verifying that electromagnetic waves are at the same rate. We have statistics.

A few of things...
- You're shown two independent papers where the authors performed experiments, dozens of measurements, up to 100 km and in comparison to the dozens of measurements throughout the century by others, found all to be within a range showing the same predictable velocity.
- Measurements are not statistics.
- What would things have to look like or to happen to to be considered facts in this scenario of measuring the speed of radio waves? In other words, what would you do to arrive at a fact?
- Lastly, you're argument always simply seems to be that if someone has the ability to lie, they will, they did, and all have lied. Which anyone could apply to anything and everything. Essentially, in your world, everyone is lying about everything. Zero people tell the truth, because everyone is capable of not telling the truth.

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bulmabriefs144

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #542 on: February 12, 2023, 05:14:13 AM »
Suppose I wanted funding. Particularly corporate funding for my invention.

However, my actual findings were rather lackluster and unispiring. Worse, my original theories were wrong.

If I tell people that people that my machine doesn't work at light speed, people aren't impressed with how fast or accurate it is. Let's suppose it's a coffee grinder that uses electromagnetic waves to pulse coffee into a fine dust. I can tell them the waves are a lousy 17,000 pulses per minute. Or I can tell them that this works at light speed.

That's basically what's going on. Scientists advertised "modern" electromagnetic devices, and they were all claimed to be at light speed, so some genius came up with the idea that we will tell the public that yeah all EM devices work at light speed. So this tanning device, that is supposed to zap through my skin and cause suntan takes several minutes for each zone.
 But it takes several minutes, not to travel miles but to penetrate skin only a few inches deep. Oh sure, you talk about the time your body takes to react. But the reality is that you have to fit in there for several minutes and then your body reacts. Or electrolysis. I've had some done. The zapping of each follicle was torture, and several seconds were gone (it also didn't work).

It's almost like scientists and corporation want to sell new products, so they say stuff like "Modern bullets would drill right through that old metal armor. Things were so crude back in those days."



Actually armor was built to deflect bows. And bows were pretty damned powerful. Hype.

I listened to AM radio yesterday then listened to FM radio. AM was getting shitty sound like way worse than any static I have ever heard from FM. Almost like the lower frequency created a breakdown in clarity as distance went on. Almost as though radio waves don't in fact move perfectly at the speed of light but all signals are not created equal. That the breakdown of AM was reduction of towers due to upgrades. Hype.

You see, all it takes to print a lie on a page is a typewriter or word processor.

Protecting trade secrets is how companies protect their products from competition.
And the best way to protect trade secrets is to lie. When Germany planes were shot down by radar, you know what they told people? That carrots help with night vision.
https://www.iflscience.com/carrot-myth-was-a-key-ingredient-to-britains-wwii-success-58266
So, lemme ask you. Satellite radio is just Sirius and XM, pretty much. It seems like other ppl could get into the act... unless the system used is not what they say it is? Trade secrets and hype.

When I worked as a janitor, I figured out that the powder my boss used was just Oxy cleaner.
The boss told the customer that this wasn't what it is. But then later he tells me "do that again and you're out."

 Unlike some people, I don't believe in trade secrets. I want ppl able to DiY, but invite us there because they're lazy don't wanna. So when ppl tell thing that are obvious crap, I have no use for them.

Oh yeah, and if you didn't think regular sound could be powerful?
https://reliabilityweb.com/articles/entry/a_look_into_pulse_theory_and_why_the_walls_of_jericho_fell
Scientists think that these walls could have fallen due to sound. But not the sound you might think. All the stamping around for seven straight hours created subsonic frequency for long enough (and at the right frequency) to smash the walls.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2023, 05:55:32 AM by bulmabriefs144 »
If ρ=m/V, then B=ρsurfobj


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Stash

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #543 on: February 12, 2023, 09:03:16 AM »
Suppose I wanted funding. Particularly corporate funding for my invention.

Here we go again. Just spinning up more straw-manning speculation.

With you, it's always, "If someone has the capability to lie (which we all do), they will. Therefore, all people lie all of the time." Especially when someone isn't aligned with your personal narrative.

That's your argument for everything. Try and come up with something less shallow and more interesting. And try and address the actual evidence and not perpetually spin speculative irrelevant yarns about germans, dog food, your radio listening habits, etc.

Address the evidence head on or don't bother. You're boring.

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Gonzo230

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #544 on: February 12, 2023, 10:26:32 AM »

I listened to AM radio yesterday then listened to FM radio. AM was getting shitty sound like way worse than any static I have ever heard from FM. Almost like the lower frequency created a breakdown in clarity as distance went on. Almost as though radio waves don't in fact move perfectly at the speed of light but all signals are not created equal. That the breakdown of AM was reduction of towers due to upgrades. Hype.



It's almost as if that, when a wave is subject to changes in amplitude due to interference, multipath, poor line of sight etc etc, and the embedded signal is carried by Amplitude Modulation, then static and the breakup of any speech/music etc occurs. Whereas if the signal is carried by Frequency Modulation, then static is far less likey to affect the signal and a clear speech/music etc is still discernable. Well done, you've determined that lower frequncy radio waves, while having a longer range, the signal being carried by the wave will be more susceptible to interference.

Nobody has said signals are equal, nor perfect. Quite the opposite. I have posted in this thread describing how different radio bands have different characteristics, and quality of signal being carried. The speed of the carrier wave is constant. Speed. Nothing to do with the quality of signal that's being carried. Static still travels on AM radio at the speed of light.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2023, 10:30:08 AM by Gonzo230 »

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JackBlack

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #545 on: February 12, 2023, 12:24:52 PM »
Suppose I wanted funding. Particularly corporate funding for my invention.
Or lets not go down your path of pure fantasy, and instead focus on reality?
Where countless people have made observations of the speed of propagation of radio waves.
Where even people like you can do such experiments.

If people were lying, it would have been exposed by now.
Even you could have performed experiments to demonstrate that the claimed speed is incorrect.

Instead, you just reject reality, because you don't like it.
You have no rational basis for your rejection, nor any evidence to support it.
The sole reason you reject it is because you don't like it.
You then make up whatever BS excuse you can think of to pretend it is fake.

But it takes several minutes, not to travel miles but to penetrate skin only a few inches deep.
No, to provide enough of the radiation, at a low power.

Again, if your delusional BS was correct, then it should be nothing for quite some time, then the effect is all delivered instantly.
That downloading a several GB file over wifi should take just as long as downloading a 1 kB file.
And in both cases, the download should have no progress at all, until right at the very end where the entire file downloads instantaneously once the waves arrive.
But back in reality, we see that if you try to download a large file, then almost instantaneously the file will begin downloading, and you will begin making progress on it.
This demonstrates it is not the speed of the wave that matters.

And you really shouldn't have picked tanning as an attempt to further pedal your delusional BS, as it just shoots you in the foot.
Tanning uses UV, which according to your dishonest pile of utter garbage should be travelling faster than light.

Oh sure, you talk about the time your body takes to react. But the reality is that you have to fit in there for several minutes and then your body reacts.
i.e. you KNOW why it takes time, but you are happily to blatantly lie to everyone to try and prop your dishonest, delusional BS.
It shows just how dishonest and pathetic you are.

I listened to AM radio yesterday then listened to FM radio. AM was getting shitty sound like way worse than any static I have ever heard from FM.
Which could be for any of countless reasons, but which have nothing at all to do with the velocity of the wave.
Did you even look to see where the signals were coming from?
Was the FM signal coming from right outside, while the AM signal was coming from several km away?
Did you look up how much power the transmitters were using?

Did you do any of that basic searching at all?
Or were you happy that you could use these results to pedal your delusional BS so you just went along with it without questioning?
Or, the far more likely case, is this just another pathetic lie from you?

Oh yeah, and if you didn't think regular sound could be powerful?
The issue isn't power.
The issue is the speed of transmission.
Sound travels at the speed of sound, much slower than the speed of light that radio waves travel at.

Now again, do you have any evidence or rational thought to back up your delusional BS?
Or can you only just spout lie after lie while ignoring all the evidence that shows you are wrong?

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bulmabriefs144

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #546 on: February 13, 2023, 05:03:07 AM »

I listened to AM radio yesterday then listened to FM radio. AM was getting shitty sound like way worse than any static I have ever heard from FM. Almost like the lower frequency created a breakdown in clarity as distance went on. Almost as though radio waves don't in fact move perfectly at the speed of light but all signals are not created equal. That the breakdown of AM was reduction of towers due to upgrades. Hype.



It's almost as if that, when a wave is subject to changes in amplitude due to interference, multipath, poor line of sight etc etc, and the embedded signal is carried by Amplitude Modulation, then static and the breakup of any speech/music etc occurs. Whereas if the signal is carried by Frequency Modulation, then static is far less likey to affect the signal and a clear speech/music etc is still discernable. Well done, you've determined that lower frequncy radio waves, while having a longer range, the signal being carried by the wave will be more susceptible to interference.

Nobody has said signals are equal, nor perfect. Quite the opposite. I have posted in this thread describing how different radio bands have different characteristics, and quality of signal being carried. The speed of the carrier wave is constant. Speed. Nothing to do with the quality of signal that's being carried. Static still travels on AM radio at the speed of light.

Yes yes, feel free to rationalize this away. The point is the word "static" refers to standing still, the opposite of being dynamic.
https://www.etymonline.com/word/static
 Interestingly, dynamos are generators of electromagnetic energy. But the thing is, when I play the PPSSPP on my computer, sometimes the game lags and I also get static of sound, coupled with choppy visuals (thankfully no visual static, but the sound grinds a bit, and sometimes distorts). Latency. I can fix this by increasing frame rate, or updating my hardware. Or defragmenting, as most of it seems to be that PPSSPP is imperfect on how memory is dealt with.

 That what static is. It isn't simply light of sight, because sound travels in waves not a perfect line. Nor is it simply the obstruction of forest. We got minor pops of static from FM. But we got major and jarring feedback sounds from AM. The difference? It's not that they actually are carried differently. Both AM and FM have frequencies, and they have amplitudes. Thae amplitude is the signal strength, the frequency is the equivalent of wave beats per second. You are either "turning up the volume" or raising the signal rate. The problem with FM theory is that you raise the energetic value of radiation. Microwave melts chocolate, UV gives you a tan, gamma radiation gives you cancer. The higher on the spectrum, the more profound an effect (in general, though the visible spectrum is sorta safe).
Again, if there is no difference in rate, there is fundamentally NO reason to increase frequency. Not when human health hangs in the balance. But there IS a difference in static when you raise frequency. I would say that AM radio was in thousands of KHz while FM was from 70 or 80 to just over 100 MHz. Faster frequency, low latency. Actually is faster. Neither one goes at light speed but both go faster frequency than regular sound (that is, frequency is somewhat modulated in AM, just enough to give different channels). Let's say by alot. So-called satellite radio gets little static broadcasting from Korea. Now some of this may be local signals, prerecorded audio or other tricks, but the point being that it very definitely is not speed of light and very definitely is not broadcast from space.
68,000 ft up is farther than we can see during the day, farther than radar can hit easily (it goes out farther than up), yet still below even high double digits of miles. Unlike space satellites which are supposed to be hundreds of miles up.

Those Chinese crafts in the news are surveillance satellites. That's why they're being shot down. The first was a distant thing, and gave off a signal that identified it as Chinese. I think they said they let it fly through most of the country. The second was alot lower, and didn't identify itself as Chinese, so they shot it down right away. As we understand from this, a closer signal gives a stronger effect. Atmospheric satellites in action, and you still don't believe.

Btw, this is very informative.
https://www.quora.com/Can-you-hear-SiriusXM-abroad?share=1
While we supposedly get Korean radio, these "satellites" don't actually broadcast anywhere outside  the US through traditional methods. That is, in Korea, they don't get American XM signals.
I say through traditional methods, because there is an app using the internet. In other words this is a territory thing, and it's somewhat unlikely that this is actually radio from Korea. More likely, it's Korean-American radio, much like in Japan they have hamburger steaks and omelettes that ALL WESTERNERS EAT because it's authentic western food (full sarcasm mode).
« Last Edit: February 13, 2023, 05:27:55 AM by bulmabriefs144 »
If ρ=m/V, then B=ρsurfobj


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Gonzo230

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #547 on: February 13, 2023, 07:16:06 AM »
Quote
Yes yes, feel free to rationalize this away. The point is the word "static" refers to standing still, the opposite of being dynamic.
https://www.etymonline.com/word/static

I see you are yet to learn that words can have different meanings depending on context. When referring to radio, the word 'static' refers to noise on AM radio, because it was often caused by static electricity. Technically you don't get static on FM radio, it should be called 'noise' rather than static, but common usage has it used in all cases regarding interference and noise (and noise here is not audible sound noise, it's radio noise).

Yes, things are complex!

Quote
Both AM and FM have frequencies, and they have amplitudes. Thae amplitude is the signal strength, the frequency is the equivalent of wave beats per second. You are either "turning up the volume" or raising the signal rate. The problem with FM theory is that you raise the energetic value of radiation. Microwave melts chocolate, UV gives you a tan, gamma radiation gives you cancer. The higher on the spectrum, the more profound an effect (in general, though the visible spectrum is sorta safe).

I recognise those as all words, but in that order they just don't make sense. There's no evidence for what you say.

AM is more susceptible to interference because its amplitude varies, so the receiver doesn't know if a particular change in amplitude is part of the intended signal, or interference, hence we hear all the interference. FM radios ignore variations in amplitude, because they know it's interference, as the signal is not encoded in amplitude. On the other hand, the frequencies used by the civil FM radio band are shorter range, so it's wrong to say that higher frequency is better.

Quote
Again, if there is no difference in rate, there is fundamentally NO reason to increase frequency.

Have you read what numerous people have posted on this thread? It's the speed of the radiation that is constant. Rate of transmission of data varies greatly depending on myriad variables. For data transmitted over radio, there is a great difference is data rate across the spectrum. Please go back, read and digest some of the earlier posts.

Quote
Again, if there is no difference in rate, there is fundamentally NO reason to increase frequency. Not when human health hangs in the balance. But there IS a difference in static when you raise frequency. I would say that AM radio was in thousands of KHz while FM was from 70 or 80 to just over 100 MHz. Faster frequency, low latency. Actually is faster. Neither one goes at light speed but both go faster frequency than regular sound (that is, frequency is somewhat modulated in AM, just enough to give different channels). Let's say by alot. So-called satellite radio gets little static broadcasting from Korea. Now some of this may be local signals, prerecorded audio or other tricks, but the point being that it very definitely is not speed of light and very definitely is not broadcast from space.
68,000 ft up is farther than we can see during the day, farther than radar can hit easily (it goes out farther than up), yet still below even high double digits of miles. Unlike space satellites which are supposed to be hundreds of miles up.

I'm sorry but this just isn't very coherent.

Satellite radio uses the DAB bands, so either 1.4GHz or 2.3GHz is the USA. These frequencies are far less vulnerable to interference, hence the cleaner signal, along with the fact it's a digital radio link, and not analgoue. There is no evidence that it's not at the speed of light, nor that satellite radio is not transmitted from satellites. That fact is easy to verfiy in the US. Buy a directional antenna. Point it at the satellite. Point it away from the satellite. Easy. Satellite radio has been overtaken by online listening.

What has radar got to do with satellite radio? Radar can see a lot further up than 68,000ft, it's just that the antenna needs to be steered to look up., Most radars are designed to detect airborne objects, aircraft etc so their antenna will be positioned to maximise useful coverage volume. If you tilt a radar up at 45 to see up, you won't see anything flying at low level a few miles away. There are specialised space detection radars used to detect, catalogue and analyse satellites and their orbits. They're not great at detecting aircraft flying at normal levels.

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JackBlack

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #548 on: February 13, 2023, 12:39:09 PM »
Yes yes, feel free to rationalize this away.
You mean don't dishonestly find anything that could possibly support your delusional BS and then ignore all other possibilities?
i.e. We should feel free to be honest?

The point is the word "static" refers to standing still, the opposite of being dynamic.
If you need to cling to the etymology of the word, to ignore what something actually is, it shows you have no case. Especially when you cherry pick just he parts you want.

Static in the case of EM radiation, is background radiation. Noise. Something the signal must overcome.

sound
We are talking about radio, not sound.

We got minor pops of static from FM. But we got major and jarring feedback sounds from AM. The difference? It's not that they actually are carried differently. Both AM and FM have frequencies, and they have amplitudes.
So you will continue with your dishonest BS and ignore the differences between them that are inconvenient for your delusional BS?
AM and FM encode the signal in a different manner.
AM encodes the signal by varying the amplitude. FM encodes it by varying the frequency.
AM suffers from any static/noise at that frequency. It directly impacts the signal that is received due to that encoding method.
But FM does not suffer the same. As it is based upon the frequency changing. So static at all frequencies doesn't significantly affect it until that noise level becomes quite high.

But regardless, you still haven't told us how far away the transmitters were, nor what power they were using.

The problem with FM theory is that you raise the energetic value of radiation.
This is only a problem for your delusional fantasy.

Microwave melts chocolate, UV gives you a tan, gamma radiation gives you cancer. The higher on the spectrum, the more profound an effect (in general, though the visible spectrum is sorta safe).
And there you go shooting yourself in the foot again.
Microwaves are at a lower frequency than visible light.
Yet you have microwaves melting things while visible light is safe, and UV causes tanning and cancer.

This demonstrates it is more than a simple case of lower frequency is more harmful.

Again, if there is no difference in rate, there is fundamentally NO reason to increase frequency.
Again, the difference is in the DATA RATE.
That is how much information can be packed into the signal in a given time.
It is NOT in how quickly the waves travel.

Once more, your delusional garbage is akin to saying there is no reason to use a truck to transport a large amount of goods when a car can travel just as fast down the highway.

Faster frequency, low latency. Actually is faster. Neither one goes at light speed
They both travel at the same speed, the speed of light.
You are yet to provide anything which actually indicates otherwise and isn't just your baseless delusional BS.
You have provided nothing to counter the mountains of evidence which show your claim is baseless delusional BS.

but the point being that it very definitely is not speed of light and very definitely is not broadcast from space.
Based upon what?
You not liking that because it doesn't match your delusional fantasy?
You not liking that because it means you are an insignificant speck in the universe, instead of the play thing of a childish, evil tyrant?

farther than radar can hit easily (it goes out farther than up)
Because that is how it is aimed.

Stop just spouting mountains of delusional BS.
Start providing a coherent argument with evidence or rational thought to back it up.
Or just admit that you are wrong and move on.

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bulmabriefs144

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #549 on: February 13, 2023, 09:15:27 PM »
Quote
Yes yes, feel free to rationalize this away. The point is the word "static" refers to standing still, the opposite of being dynamic.
https://www.etymonline.com/word/static

I see you are yet to learn that words can have different meanings depending on context. When referring to radio, the word 'static' refers to noise on AM radio, because it was often caused by static electricity. Technically you don't get static on FM radio, it should be called 'noise' rather than static, but common usage has it used in all cases regarding interference and noise (and noise here is not audible sound noise, it's radio noise).

A synonym is a word with a similar meaning as another word. But words don't have the same meaning, because of a little thing called word origin. And another little thing called connotation. Static is from the word for "stillness" because the noise is actually latency. Different meaning you say, but actually there is a rhyme and rhythm to definitions. They tend to form because meanings are associated.

By the way genius, static electricity is once again related. It is the ambient leftover charge, known as the triboelectric effect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triboelectric_effect
It's the electromagnetic charge that "stays" on an object, and scientists call it "unpredictable" which means they don't honestly know all triboelectric reactions. But no, it does not have to do with static electricity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_noise
The official story is...
Quote
Radio noise is a combination of natural electromagnetic atmospheric noise ("spherics", static) created by electrical processes in the atmosphere like lightning, manmade radio frequency interference (RFI) from other electrical devices picked up by the receiver's antenna, and thermal noise present in the receiver input circuits, caused by the random thermal motion of molecules.
Taking other people's word for things is not good policy. Actually examining information is better.
Quote
The level of noise determines the maximum sensitivity and reception range of a radio receiver; if no noise were picked up with radio signals, even weak transmissions could be received at virtually any distance by making a radio receiver that was sensitive enough. With noise present, if a radio source is so weak and far away that the radio signal in the receiver has a lower amplitude than the average noise, the noise will drown out the signal.
What have we learned here? That static is not static electricity at all but atmospheric noise that is a combination of electricity, other signals, and thermal radiation. And more importantly, a strong frequency and high amplitude drowns out the signal. Of these two, strong frequency seems to be more relevant as the AM frequency I heard was plenty loud, but had an awful amount of feedback. The same is true of streaming anime on certain internet websites. Static is latency.

The fact that my computer was able to generate noise from a slow game means you very definitely don't know what you are talking about. 

Yes, things are complex!

Actually, things are simple.

The world we live in has something called Occam's Razor, which means the more complex something is, the more likely it is to be bullshit. Especially if it outright contradicts observable reality. If you don't live in Africa or a few areas where they've imported zebras, hoofbeats are horses. Or to put it another way.

Quote from:  Lao Tzu
True words aren’t eloquent, eloquent words aren’t true.
Wise men don’t need to prove their point, men who need to prove their point aren’t wise.

And this is what this theory of yours is. Bullshit. 
It contradicts what we know of frequencies increasing in energy, it contradicts what we know of physical objects traveling at different rates, in order to casually state that all objects in a certain spectrum travel at the same rate. Bullets, blowdarts, arrows, and bazooka rockets are all launched projectiles. Is it a reasonable assumption that they all fly at the same rate? No, it's not. So why does a flimsy experiment from Hertz suddenly make things okay? Because some people who I don't know at all came up with charts? Today I showed my father that despite that his alma mater's founder supposedly being accused of racism, it is possible photoshop anything in this day and age. And before you even say "yes, but this is before photoshop," my point is that it is entirely possible to write something fraudulent with just pen and ink.

So no, I give zero fucks how many doctored graphs and charts you show me to order to push me to agree with you. Crap is crap.

It is logically inconsistent for frequency to make no difference in speed. Dude, anyone who has ever used a jump rope knows better than this. A frequency of 2 ropes per 30 seconds is significantly slower than 228 ropes in 30 seconds.  Such speed probably creates its own vibration. Which is the point. Vibration is vibration. This is the thing that is the same, the fact that whether discussing matter or energy, atoms/molecules are in motion.  Not the idea that all EM wave signals move at the same rate.
That's garbage.
I know it, and you should know it too.     

We ignore "complex" ideas in favor of logically consistent simple ones. Static being noise from delayed signal not only makes sense on my shitty computer (both streaming video and emulating games at the limit of the computer's RAM requirements), but it makes sense from the model below of increasing energy at heightened frequency and shorter wavelength. Faster sound, more momentum, more energy, lower latency, more visual and audio clarity. Less white noise. Damned simple.
If ρ=m/V, then B=ρsurfobj


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Stash

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #550 on: February 13, 2023, 10:00:23 PM »
By the way genius, static electricity is once again related. It is the ambient leftover charge, known as the triboelectric effect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triboelectric_effect
It's the electromagnetic charge that "stays" on an object, and scientists call it "unpredictable" which means they don't honestly know all triboelectric reactions. But no, it does not have to do with static electricity.

Triboelectric charging is the phenomenon whereby adhesion forces between two surfaces causes the dislodging of electrons from nearby atoms, with those electrons being attracted to the material with the highest positive potential as the interface attempts to neutralize itself. Relative contact motion (friction; e.g., walking across a carpet) is most often the cause of triboelectric charge transfer, but simply pulling apart two dissimilar surfaces can also be the mechanism (e.g., pulling a wool sweater off or lifting a polymer type fabric blanket away from a bed sheet) for charge transfer. Electrostatic discharge (ESD), a manifestation of triboelectric charging, can damage or destroy electronic components. Another effect caused by triboelectric charging is static in communications systems that are contained within moving vehicles like cars, boats, airplanes, rockets, etc. Much research has been performed to figure out how to mitigate the problem. By the late 1930s, radio static was inhibiting airborne communications to the point that serious action needed to be taken.
The author of this article on the problem of snow static as it affects aircraft-radio reception, and discussion of methods being developed to counteract snow static, is Supt. of Communications Laboratory, United Air Lines. The subject matter of this series of articles was recently presented at Denver, Colo., before the Inst. of Aeronautical Science, and the American Assoc. for the Advancement of Science.



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JackBlack

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #551 on: February 13, 2023, 11:54:20 PM »
A synonym
We aren't talking about synonyms.
We are talking about words having different meaning depending on context.
Appealing the etymology of the word in a case like this to entirely ignore the meaning of the word just further demonstrates your dishonesty and that you have no case.

What have we learned here?
That you are happy to quote something, and then proceed to blatantly misrepresent it.

Static on radio is not static electricity. No one said it was. Gonzo said it was caused by it.
And guess what? Your source supports that claim.
It states that lighting is a cause of static for a radio, and lightning is caused by static electricity.

No where in your source did it mention a high (or strong as you put it) frequency overcoming noise. But that doesn't stop you blatantly lying and pretending it does.

The same is true of streaming anime on certain internet websites. Static is latency.
No, it isn't.
You have nothing at all to support that delusional garbage.

The world we live in has something called Occam's Razor, which means the more complex something is, the more likely it is to be bullshit.
Yes, like your BS complex idea of waves magically changing speed based upon their frequency, is clearly BS.
Your complex idea of the properties of sound waves drastically varying depending on frequency so low frequency sound waves act as longitudinal waves in air so they can't be polarised and need a medium while high frequency waves can magically be polarised and not need a medium is clearly BS.

Especially as it outright contradicts observable reality.

It contradicts what we know of frequencies increasing in energy, it contradicts what we know of physical objects traveling at different rates, in order to casually state that all objects in a certain spectrum travel at the same rate.
No, it doesn't.
It contradicts your delusional BS.
Your delusional BS is not reality.

So why does a flimsy experiment from Hertz suddenly make things okay?
It isn't just a single experiment from Hertz.
It is all the available evidence in existence demonstrating that EM waves travel at the speed of light.
With literally no evidence at all giving the BS you desire.

So no, I give zero fucks how many doctored graphs and charts you show me to order to push me to agree with you.
That's right, because you do not give a damn about reality at all.
All you care about is promoting your dishonest, delusional BS.
You are willing to blatantly lie to everyone, and repeat the same dishonest BS again and again to try and pretend your BS is true.
You refuse to accept any evidence that you are wrong, nor try to repeat any of the experiments yourself, because you don't give a damn about the truth or reality.

It is logically inconsistent for frequency to make no difference in speed.
Prove it.

I know it, and you should know it too.
No ones knows that, as it is pure BS.
Plenty of people know that EM waves move at the speed of light, likely including you. But you don't care, you are happy to continually lie to everyone.

Static being noise from delayed signal not only makes sense
It makes no sense at all.
There is no reason for the signal to be magically delayed, nor for that delay to completely corrupt it into static.

it makes sense from the model below
Your delusional BS has already had so much of it exposed as BS.
It makes no sense at all.
The fact that sound waves and EM waves are fundamentally different demonstrate it is pure BS.
The fact that countless observations demonstrate that the speed of sound depends on the medium, rather than the frequency dictating it; and that being vastly different to EM waves, which all travel much much faster at the speed of light, with countless observations of that, demonstrate they are not on the same spectrum.
The fact that sound waves rely upon a medium, while EM waves do not demonstrate that they are not on the same spectrum.
The fact that sound waves in air are longitudinal waves, which cannot be polarised, while EM waves are transverse waves which can be polarised demonstrates they are not on the same spectrum.

You know all this, yet you ignore it to continue to repeat the same pathetic lies.

You know simple tests you can do to clearly demonstrate your claims are BS, yet you refuse to do them because you know your claims are BS.

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Gonzo230

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #552 on: February 14, 2023, 01:17:10 AM »
Bulmabriefs,

Quote
A synonym is a word with a similar meaning as another word. But words don't have the same meaning, because of a little thing called word origin. And another little thing called connotation. Static is from the word for "stillness" because the noise is actually latency. Different meaning you say, but actually there is a rhyme and rhythm to definitions. They tend to form because meanings are associated.

Well done. You looked up the etymology of the word 'static'. That has no bearing on how the word is actually used now. In radio terms, static refers technically to the noise associated with AM radio reception, because it was associated in early radio experiments with the presence of static electricity. You can actually hear it on AM radio when electrical storms are nearby, or you can even provoke it with vandegraff generators or even using some synthetic fibres (like rubbing a toy balloon, making your hair stand on end, or taking off a synthetic sweatshirt). As I explained earlier, the word 'static' has become a common terms for all kinds of noise and interference heard on the radio, but it is actually technically very specific.

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What have we learned here? That static is not static electricity at all but atmospheric noise that is a combination of electricity, other signals, and thermal radiation. And more importantly, a strong frequency and high amplitude drowns out the signal. Of these two, strong frequency seems to be more relevant as the AM frequency I heard was plenty loud, but had an awful amount of feedback. The same is true of streaming anime on certain internet websites. Static is latency.

No. Nobody has said static is static electricity. Static on the radio is the effect of static electricity. It's a simple concept. Same word. Different meanings.

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means you very definitely don't know what you are talking about.

Please, educate me about your experince in radio and radar. I've used both for every day of my working life since 1997. I've worked with manfacturers and system designers in both fields. What's your experience? Where's the evidence for all of your claims?

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The world we live in has something called Occam's Razor, which means the more complex something is, the more likely it is to be bullshit. Especially if it outright contradicts observable reality. If you don't live in Africa or a few areas where they've imported zebras, hoofbeats are horses. Or to put it another way.

Quite. This thread is crying out for anything you can contribute that you've observed yourself. You've posted nothing so far that proves to contradict our current understanding of radio and radar. You have a few wacky ideas and ridiculous claims, with no evidence behind them. I'd love to be proved wrong. We're all waiting.

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. Dude, anyone who has ever used a jump rope knows better than this. A frequency of 2 ropes per 30 seconds is significantly slower than 228 ropes in 30 seconds


Excellent example of frequency. But that rope isn't travelling anywhere. It's motionless in terms of travel. It's just moving up and down. Now hold that rope at one end only and flip it up and down. The waves travel down the rope towards the other end until they peter out. Let's say you make one up and down movement every ten seconds (0.1Hz). You then make your arm move faster up and down, but to the same extent, maybe once a second, and that sends one wave per second (1Hz) down the rope. The wave in the rope travels at the same speed. You can really put your back into it and move your arm really quickly and more violently. Now you're increasing the amplitude. The speed of the wave going down the rope stays the same, it's just a bigger wave and will travel further down the rope.  You see how we can both vary frequency, and amplitude, but the speed stays constant.

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bulmabriefs144

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #553 on: February 14, 2023, 10:27:09 PM »
Quote
Well done. You looked up the etymology of the word 'static'. That has no bearing on how the word is actually used now. In radio terms, static refers technically to the noise associated with AM radio reception, because it was associated in early radio experiments with the presence of static electricity. You can actually hear it on AM radio when electrical storms are nearby, or you can even provoke it with vandegraff generators or even using some synthetic fibres (like rubbing a toy balloon, making your hair stand on end, or taking off a synthetic sweatshirt). As I explained earlier, the word 'static' has become a common terms for all kinds of noise and interference heard on the radio, but it is actually technically very specific.

It's called radio noise, and is the effect of several different types of feedback. It's an example of horribly inaccurate terminology. And if you're going to explain this away as static electricity, you're going to have to explain how static electricity works for objects that are not metallic or magnetic (a sweater or a ballon) when they supposedly are what's doing interference on electromagnetic frequency. Now me, I'm gonna say vibrations are vibrations and we should call this the Matter & Energy Vibrational Spectrum instead of the Electromagnetic Spectrum, since many things that are part of this or interfere with this are not electrical or magnetic per se.

Quote
Excellent example of frequency. But that rope isn't travelling anywhere. It's motionless in terms of travel. It's just moving up and down. Now hold that rope at one end only and flip it up and down. The waves travel down the rope towards the other end until they peter out. Let's say you make one up and down movement every ten seconds (0.1Hz). You then make your arm move faster up and down, but to the same extent, maybe once a second, and that sends one wave per second (1Hz) down the rope. The wave in the rope travels at the same speed. You can really put your back into it and move your arm really quickly and more violently. Now you're increasing the amplitude. The speed of the wave going down the rope stays the same, it's just a bigger wave and will travel further down the rope.  You see how we can both vary frequency, and amplitude, but the speed stays constant.



So what if it isn't traveling anywhere?

The speed of the rope has changed. Only by defining speed as "horizontal/vertical movement towards a destination" (e.g. driving a car from point A to point B) do you get such an asinine definition.

The speed and frequency in the jump rope example are identical (both for the rope and the jumper). As would be the case for a treadmill and runner. It does not matter that the runner is going nowhere. If the treadmill suddenly malfunctioned stopped moving somehow), the runner's speed would continue, and the runner would lurch forward and trip over the front of the device. In fact, in nearly all real world examples, speed and frequency are identical. I say nearly all because I can think of one example offhand where it doesn't. Changing states of matter. If I put a block of ice in basin, its speed (the speed of the object itself) doesn't appear to change. But the frequency of the object (the movement of its atoms) does move. The mere fact that you can sing at whole notes, half notes, and grace notes means sound have different rates of movement. And different pitches produce different frequencies as demonstrated below.

https://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html

They are giving a fixed speed of sound but this is assuming all sound travels at the same rate.
https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/28m52s/does_all_sound_travel_at_the_same_speed_or_do/
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This is slightly related to your question, but optical waves of different frequencies will travel at different speeds inside materials. This is called dispersion and is the reason prisms bend light to form a rainbow.

There is an acoustic analog for optical dispersion and it's (not surprisingly) called acoustic dispersion.

Now, I don't pretend to understand how acoustic dispersion works precisely, which sounds disperses at what what rate.
But from reading below, it appears to be a factor of amplitude. That is, when you amp up the volume, frequency makes a difference. I image there is a minor difference between notes of different frequencies, between whole/half/quarter/etc notes, but within normal hearing range, they all travel at the speed of sound. However, if you are at the limits of audible sound (a concert from a distance), certain pitches, and certain rates of sound will carry farther. This is because frequency makes a difference in how sound is projected, and at range, sounds will scatter into more distinct speeds based on frequency. Like I say, I'm not sure what I can hear the farthest, but it seems I remember higher frequencies having better clarity when listening to music when it is close enough to blend together, whereas higher wavelength carries music farther at range. This is why FM works well, it projects radio waves through a series of conduits so the signal is clear and it never breaks down. But if it were to do without radio towers and such for awhile, you would hear the lower frequency white noise instead. Static. Static is, as said before, because frequency isn't fast enough nor the amplitude good enough. It is stillness or latency in the signal, where the connection has failed and the signal hits empty air instead of more towers or atmospheric satellites for awhile.

Basically, even if you can say that sound all travels at the same speed (I suspect there are slight variations of less than 10 mph even then, it just compresses into whole and half notes and such) at normal range, that's not quite true when it's at longer ranges but still audible. It appears to all travel at the speed of sound based on its normal movement through air. But in actual fact, frequencies are not identical even at close range. When playing a xylophone as a kid, and a hammer dulcimer as an adult, I noticed that the higher the note, the more difficult it was to play at the same amplitude, and the more quickly it seemed to break down (I noticed this because I was a strange kid and didn't hammer with alot of vigor but just softly tapped the xylophone, and noticed it didn't really take for about the top two or three panels, so I had to hit harder).
That is, while notes all appear to travel at the same rate, enough to create music, bass notes are more likely to naturally create whole notes, while soprano notes more likely produce grace notes at the same amount of impact. Higher frequency really is faster, even if all available sound is able to move evenly within a medium. Only by prolonging the frequency or raising the amplitude (hitting that note harder) does it maintain the musical standard.

It's minor, but even here you can tell that the highest note feels clipped while the lowest note has just slightly more reverb. Acoustic dispersion is probably why people's voices suck on the phone or recording. Aside from professional singers, most people (including me) are completely awful at harmonizing their voice so pitches blend together. So the recorded sound tends to suck because it disperses due to disharmonic rates of frequency (sound moving at different speed causing interference that mutes certain notes of the voice). The other reason has to do with the limitations of the technology.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2023, 10:34:16 PM by bulmabriefs144 »
If ρ=m/V, then B=ρsurfobj


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Gonzo230

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #554 on: February 14, 2023, 10:47:31 PM »
I realise this must be confusing to you, I really do.

But the word ‘static’, when used referring to radio interference, was first used when the audible effect of static electricity was heard on early radio experiments.

You’ll notice I’m not ‘explaining anything away as static electricity’.

I’m telling you why the word ‘static’ is used in radio. There are many mechanisms for causing interference and weak signals on the EM spectrum, I’ve mentioned some above in this thread…. Multipath, reflection, diffraction, atmospherics, humidity, sunspot activity, line of sight issues and so on. Nobody has claimed it’s all caused by static electricity.

So what if your rope isn’t travelling anywhere? Well, then you’re literally just moving a rope around. I mean it’s obvious. You haven’t set up a wave. So anything after that has no relevance to this discussion about waves and their behaviour. You might as well be prodding a jelly.

As I’ve said before, FM radio is clearer than AM radio because of its different nature. It can ignore the variations in amplitude caused by many factors (see above) and so the signal coded in the variations of frequency survive intact. In AM radio, the signal is encoded in variations in amplitude, so any variations in amplitude caused by those interfering factors are received and then played to the listener, causing the interference to be heard.

This is, what, the third or fourth time this has been explained?

You must either think the whole radio industry around the world is incompetent, or in on a conspiracy to hide how radio actually works. Why would that be the case?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2023, 11:19:42 PM by Gonzo230 »

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Gonzo230

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #555 on: February 14, 2023, 11:23:13 PM »
And please forgive me for not noticing it just now, but are you now claiming higher frequency sound travels faster through the same medium than lower frequency sound?

Where’s your evidence please?

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JackBlack

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #556 on: February 15, 2023, 12:57:50 AM »
It's an example of horribly inaccurate terminology.
Inaccurate in the sense that the etymology of the word doesn't match?
That is only a problem for people like you that want to pretend words need to cling to their etymology.

Most people understand what static is.

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Now me, I'm gonna say vibrations are vibrations and we should call this the Matter & Energy Vibrational Spectrum instead of the Electromagnetic Spectrum, since many things that are part of this or interfere with this are not electrical or magnetic per se.
And any sane person (at least those who understand what is being discussed), will point out that idea is pure BS.
We will keep the EM spectrum for EM radiation. That means your BS with trying to stick sound on it is wrong.

They would also recognise that sound and light are NOT on the spectrum. They are fundamentally different.
There is no gradual change from sound to light. There is a massive jump.

The simplest way to understand this is velocity.
Sound travels at the speed of sound.
You can go to higher and higher frequencies, and it will still be travelling at ~350 m/s.
EM radiation travels at the speed of light.
You can't gradually transition waves from travelling at the speed of sound to the speed of light.

And the same applies to other properties.
Sound waves are waves propagating through a medium.
EM radiation is distortion of the EM field propagating through space without any need for a medium.
There is no in-between.
You can't have something which partially needs a medium but partially doesn't.
Either it or it doesn't.
This is a drastic change, like a step. Something a spectrum cannot allow.
Even the regions of the EM spectrum are arbitrary lines in the sand. And the visual portion of it is a great example, where different people can see different ranges. Some people can see further into the UV region than others. And there really isn't any significant difference between EM radiation on either side of that UV-Visible divide.

Another example is that sound in air is longitudinal while EM radiation is transverse. This means sound can't be polarised, but EM radiation can.

I see you have decided to write a comic about yourself and how pathetic and dishonest you are?

Quote
So what if it isn't traveling anywhere?
It demonstrates that the "speed" you are focusing on is fundamentally different to the speed of propagation of a wave.
To further demonstrate this you can consider the amplitude.

Consider your pathetic rope spinning so it has an amplitude of 0.5 m, and 1 cycle per second, and then compare that to an identical rope which has an amplitude of 1 m, but still a period of 1 second. That second rope, with a larger amplitude has to be moving faster to make that greater distance. But that is not the speed of propagation of the wave.

You are not focusing on how fast the wave is propagating, but how fast the rope is moving around.

This makes it entirely useless for a discussion on the velocity of waves.

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In fact, in nearly all real world examples, speed and frequency are identical.
Once more, pure BS.
In NO example are they identical.

They are measured in fundamentally different units.
Speed and frequency are different phenomenon and thus will not be identical.

In the example above, the ropes both had a frequency of 1 Hz, or 1 /s. Yet neither rope had a speed of 1 /s.
Instead, the example where the rope had an amplitude of 0.5 m, that means it would trace a circle that is roughly 3.14 m long (at the centre) and thus travel at ~3.14 m/s. Notice how this is NOT 1/s.
The larger amplitude of 1 m would result in a circle that is ~6.28 m long, so it travels at a speed of 6.28 m/s.
Notice how these 2 ropes, which both have a period of 1 second, or a frequency of 1 Hz have the physical rope moving at a different speeds, and neither of the speeds is 1 /s.

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The mere fact that you can sing at whole notes, half notes, and grace notes means sound have different rates of movement. And different pitches produce different frequencies as demonstrated below.
The fact that you can make music (or speak) in a manner where multiple different frequencies play at once, without any significant distortion, demonstrates that your claim is delusional BS.

In your delusional BS, the high pitched frequencies should reach your ear much faster than a low frequency sound, resulting in massive distortion of music and speech, with that distortion growing the further away you are from the object.

But it doesn't.

Quote
Now, I don't pretend to understand how acoustic dispersion works precisely, which sounds disperses at what what rate.
No, instead you will just dishonestly pretend it backs up your delusional BS.

Quote
But from reading below, it appears to be a factor of amplitude.
Or more specifically, it is a break down of the assumptions of ideality, and is a function of both amplitude and frequency, where it is entirely insignificant at low amplitudes, and is nothing at all like what you suggest.

Quote
This is because frequency makes a difference in how sound is projected, and at range, sounds will scatter into more distinct speeds based on frequency.
No, it wont.
Instead it is based upon the properties of the medium absorbing sound.

Quote
This is why FM works well, it projects radio waves through a series of conduits
And more delusional BS.
FM works well because it uses frequency modulation which is less sensitive to noise when above a particular threshold.
There are no magical conduits.

Quote
Static is, as said before, because frequency isn't fast enough nor the amplitude good enough.
And as others have corrected you (including myself), that is pure BS.
Static is not the signal magically being delayed.
It is other sources of radiation causing interference.
Random background noise.

Repeating your same delusional BS wont make it true.

Quote
When playing a xylophone as a kid, and a hammer dulcimer as an adult, I noticed that the higher the note, the more difficult it was to play at the same amplitude, and the more quickly it seemed to break down (I noticed this because I was a strange kid and didn't hammer with alot of vigor but just softly tapped the xylophone, and noticed it didn't really take for about the top two or three panels, so I had to hit harder).
Your inability to play an instrument has no bearing on how fast sound travels.

Yet again, you just spout delusional BS with no rational justification nor evidence to support your delusional BS.

Quote
Acoustic dispersion is probably why people's voices suck on the phone or recording.
No, it is because they limit the bandwidth, to only use a certain amount of data.
It has nothing to do with dispertion.

If it actually was due to dispersion, you would have the same effect with the same distance.

i.e. if someone had a microphone 10 cm from them, and recorded their voice, and then you played in through a speaker that was 1 m away from your ear, then it would be the same as if your ear was 1.1 m away from them and they were just speaking.

But you can be listening through headphones, basically touching your ears, with the sound recorded from a microphone that was basically touching their mouth and have it sound far worse than just sitting a few m away from them listening to them talking.

Again, you should really stop just spouting delusional BS.
Instead, try coming up with a coherent, rational argument or evidence to defend your delusional BS.

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bulmabriefs144

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #557 on: February 15, 2023, 06:25:51 AM »
And please forgive me for not noticing it just now, but are you now claiming higher frequency sound travels faster through the same medium than lower frequency sound?

Where’s your evidence please?

I just told you. Personal evidence. When hit at a soft amplitude by a child (me!) higher notes broke down quicker. I found that I had to hit higher notes harder (raising the amplitude) in order for them to register. As I grew to be an adult, I found this to be true. And this was trying several instruments (I never got good at anything because my ability to follow through with things that take excessive amounts of practice was limited) from piano to handbells, to guitar, to harmonica, and finally accordion. The accordion I was actually with effort able to play a few simple songs, but mostly it gathered dust. But in all cases I found that the initial effort for the highest notes was alot more.
 Most singers in fact can't do the highest notes. As a crossdresser, I learned alot about pitching my voice and holding back some of the husky timbre that my voice normally wants to do. But whenever I tried to make my voice past the alto/baritone range and into soprano, I ran into trouble after a certain key, where it was hard to sing after adolescence.

If a sound travels faster, amplitude must be added to get it to adjust to the speed of sound, effectively modulating it. Even so, it appears clipped. If I hit four notes two apart, it sound something like this <dohh, deh, dah, di> with the highest note resonating the shortest amount of time, and the lowest note having the most resonance. You can also hear it in the xylophone video, although they play with more intensity than I did.
This is consistent with radio frequency, as amateur radio often travels quite a distance, the stuff we hear in the car is a result of repeating and hitting off of various things. It's consistent with everything actually. We prize the highest frequency signal (why FM won out over AM) for clear sound, but the lower frequency travels further.

Quote from:  Wikipedia
LF radio waves exhibit low signal attenuation, making them suitable for long-distance communications.

Attenuation is the breakdown of waves. The longer the wave the more stable it is. Since this is the same relationship for sound and radio, we are not talking about two different things. We are talking about the same spectrum at different speeds and frequencies.
If ρ=m/V, then B=ρsurfobj


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Gonzo230

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #558 on: February 15, 2023, 06:33:41 AM »


Quote from:  Wikipedia
LF radio waves exhibit low signal attenuation, making them suitable for long-distance communications.

Attenuation is the breakdown of waves. The longer the wave the more stable it is. Since this is the same relationship for sound and radio, we are not talking about two different things. We are talking about the same spectrum at different speeds and frequencies.

What are your criteria for trusting Wikipedia? I'm sure it says that all the EM spectrum travels at the speed of light, no?

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Gonzo230

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #559 on: February 15, 2023, 06:48:36 AM »
And please forgive me for not noticing it just now, but are you now claiming higher frequency sound travels faster through the same medium than lower frequency sound?

Where’s your evidence please?

I just told you. Personal evidence. When hit at a soft amplitude by a child (me!) higher notes broke down quicker. I found that I had to hit higher notes harder (raising the amplitude) in order for them to register. As I grew to be an adult, I found this to be true. And this was trying several instruments (I never got good at anything because my ability to follow through with things that take excessive amounts of practice was limited) from piano to handbells, to guitar, to harmonica, and finally accordion. The accordion I was actually with effort able to play a few simple songs, but mostly it gathered dust. But in all cases I found that the initial effort for the highest notes was alot more.

None of that relates to speed though. You just said 'it breaks down quicker'. That's not the speed. You're still getting confused by the speed of the thing (be it radio waves, or sound waves), and what that thing contains. Where's the evidence, anywhere, that difference frequencies of sound travel at different speeds?

Sound obviously does travel at the same speed, a sound consisting of multiple frequencies being created a distance away will travel at a measureable speed, and the same sound will be heard, at a lower amplitude but still containing the same frequencies. If it didn't as you claim, the further away from the sound's source you are (say a short, sharp explosion), the more elongated the sound would become as the frequencies separated out.

This just doesn't happen, does it?

If you're a musician, imagine being in a concert hall with an orchestra. if the different frequencies travelled at different speeds then the audience in the furthest seats would hear an out-of-tune squeal.

BTW, you're still yet to answer how you think radar works if we don't know how fast radio waves travel.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2023, 07:50:14 AM by Gonzo230 »

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Stash

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #560 on: February 15, 2023, 09:45:07 AM »
Most singers in fact can't do the highest notes.

Most singers in fact can't do the lowest notes.

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JackBlack

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #561 on: February 15, 2023, 12:14:35 PM »
When hit at a soft amplitude by a child (me!) higher notes broke down quicker.
This is almost meaningless.

What do you mean by they broke down quicker?
Do you mean the note plays for a shorter period of time? If so, that in no way helps support your delusional BS.

Again, personal experience demonstrates quite easily that sound travels at the same speed regardless of frequency.
The lack of distortion of voices, even when from a large distance, shows this must be true.

If your delusional BS was true, voices would be distorted beyond recognition after just a short distance.

This is consistent with radio frequency, as amateur radio often travels quite a distance, the stuff we hear in the car is a result of repeating and hitting off of various things. It's consistent with everything actually. We prize the highest frequency signal (why FM won out over AM) for clear sound, but the lower frequency travels further.
And now your delusional BS contradicts your previous delusional BS.

You previously claimed FM sounded so much clearer because it was travelling faster and went a longer distance, with the lower frequency AM not being suitable for long distance.

But now you go directly against that by saying that lower frequencies are better for greater distance.

Once again you clearly demonstrate that you don't give a damn about the truth or reality.
All you care about is spouting whatever delusional BS you can to prop up your fantasy.

Attenuation is the breakdown of waves.
Wrong again, and another example of your blatant dishonesty.

If you bothered reading the page you would have seen this:
"The attenuation of signal strength with distance by absorption in the ground"
Attenuation isn't the wave magically breaking down.
It is the absorption of the energy by a medium.

And while it does depend upon frequency, it isn't a simple linear relationship, or even a monotonic relationship.

Here is an example which you also could have easily found:


The longer the wave the more stable it is. Since this is the same relationship for sound and radio, we are not talking about two different things. We are talking about the same spectrum at different speeds and frequencies.
No, it isn't the same relationship for sound and radio.
Even if it was, that is delusional BS.
Finding one point of commonality does not magically make them the same.

There are vast differences between sound and radio waves (or EM waves in general) which clearly demonstrate they are not the same thing.
Ignoring these differences because they expose your delusional garbage just how dishonest you are and how pathetic your position is.

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bulmabriefs144

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #562 on: February 16, 2023, 08:05:54 AM »
Most singers in fact can't do the highest notes.

Most singers in fact can't do the lowest notes.

So you're basing theory against percentages of singers. 50% of all female singers are soprano.
20% of all male singers are bass.

Steve Perry can sing high notes.


But here's his speaking voice. And you can tell his voice has shifted down over the years. You also tell from the very highest notes in Mother Father that his most reedy and faint notes are the top pitch.

High notes put more strain on the voice. Lower notes are more comfortable for regular speech.



The voice for Naruto? She can talk like a boy for hours it seems.


So can alot of women, to the point where they tend to higher women for upper range male voices.  In fact, look at how much of the lower register the female actor for Naruto does. It's at the very bottom of her range, yet it doesn't look uncomfortable. Ryoma from Prince of Tennis in particular is impressive.

https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/32526/why-does-singing-high-notes-seem-to-strain-my-vocal-chords-more-than-low-notes

This exact question is asked. I'm not the only one who noticed. I can be hoarse for hours but I've never been stuck in high notes for hours. Low vocal range is more comfortable. The responders to this question tell us this.

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Singing pitch is mainly controlled by the tension on the vocal folds. Higher pitch, higher tension.

So yeah, that only 20% of men are bass. So what? Only a few sopranos can hit the highest notes of soprano range, and mostly only well-trained sopranos. Bass/baritone is just easier to sing.

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What do you mean by they broke down quicker?

I mean that when there's a festival and music is playing several blocks away, you can hear the bass notes and the drum, but not much treble at all. When you get closer still, you can hear the lower treble, but not notes that are in soprano range. It is only when you get within about sight range that you can hear the highest notes.

Attenuation. They broke down quicker. I'm not speaking a foreign language here. You're being deliberately obtuse.

For four blocks away I can hear drums clear as day. In fact, they sound like they're in the background when I get closer, compared to much louder singing and guitars.

Delusional BS? Or actual observations?

"Absorption into the ground?" No such thing. This is curvature nonsense. It breaks down (literally, the vibrations stop). The air molecules reach a point where they stop vibrating. Lower frequency travels further, but sound waves do not have mass. They are not subject to "gravity" any more than light or radio waves.

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If you're a musician, imagine being in a concert hall with an orchestra. if the different frequencies travelled at different speeds then the audience in the furthest seats would hear an out-of-tune squeal.

Orchestras have been set up with centuries architectural design in harmonics. Besides which, at the range

Build me a orchestra stage that stretches several city blocks, and we'll see if you're right. Attenuation doesn't even start in a typical orchestra stage, as all musical notes are within range.

Also, no they wouldn't hear an out of tune squeal. They'd hear only the drums. The same thing happens to old people. They lose the ability to hear high notes.

For instance, this song.



The whole song can be heard in the concert area. But if you were to leave the concert and tell the gatekeeper "I have a ticket, I'll be back" what you could hear from the car is the drums, not as much her singing (I think she's alto to mezzo).

I know this from enough entering and leaving early of baseball games. I could still hear stuff in the distance but only certain frequencies.

That is delusional BS. I know what I can see and hear, you make up nonsense from other people.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2023, 09:02:13 AM by bulmabriefs144 »
If ρ=m/V, then B=ρsurfobj


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Stash

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #563 on: February 16, 2023, 08:56:22 AM »
Most singers in fact can't do the highest notes.

Most singers in fact can't do the lowest notes.

So you're basing theory against percentages of singers. 50% of all female singers are soprano.
20% of all male singers are bass.

I'm not basing anything on percentages. I'm basing on your statement.

For four blocks away I can hear drums clear as day. In fact, they sound like they're in the background when I get closer, compared to much louder singing and guitars.

From four blocks away I can hear a high pitched shredding guitar solo clear as day.

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Gonzo230

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #564 on: February 16, 2023, 11:21:04 AM »
Bulmabriefs, you don’t even understand your own claims.

Take the concert hall out of consideration if it’s confusing you,

Put an orchestra, or any sound source that can output multiple frequencies of sound at a high volume, outside.

Now stand a way away. You do not experience any difference in terms of the times at which different frequencies arriving at your ear.

It’s easy to hear how this effect could be heard, if it did actually exist.

At an outdoor event with multiple PA/tannoy speakers, you can easily detect the difference in distance between speakers as the sound (at all frequencies) travels different distances to your ear. Just to be clear, this is the same sound, arriving at different times, from two sources different distances from the listener.

You never get the effect of the different frequencies from one source arriving at different times. You just don’t. You would be able to hear this effect, if it actually existed, over a few hundred metres.

It doesn’t exist.

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JackBlack

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #565 on: February 16, 2023, 12:18:06 PM »
High notes put more strain on the voice.
Because they are literally straining the vocal cords.
It has nothing at all to do with your delusional BS of higher frequencies travelling faster.


I mean that when there's a festival and music is playing several blocks away, you can hear the bass notes and the drum, but not much treble at all.
Which has nothing to do with breaking down.
That is attenuation, where the higher frequencies are absorbed, and not transmitted as easily by the ground and buildings that get in the way.

They broke down quicker. I'm not speaking a foreign language here. You're being deliberately obtuse.
No, your were entirely unclear. My first thought was that you struck a note on your xylophone, and the higher frequency notes stopped playing faster while the lower frequencies played for longer.

Delusional BS? Or actual observations?
The problem is how you try to tie the observations to your delusional BS.
It has nothing at all to do with your claims of different velocities.

"Absorption into the ground?" No such thing. This is curvature nonsense.
Don't bother citing a source to try and back up your delusional BS when you are just going to discard it.
You not liking reality doesn't make it not a thing, and this has nothing to do with curvature.

It breaks down (literally, the vibrations stop). The air molecules reach a point where they stop vibrating.
This is pure garbage.
The sound waves are carrying energy. That energy can't just magically vanish.
Instead, that energy to be absorbed by something.
That isn't breaking down, that is being absorbed.

Build me a orchestra stage that stretches several city blocks, and we'll see if you're right. Attenuation doesn't even start in a typical orchestra stage, as all musical notes are within range.
Attenuation does occur, just not to a significant extent.
But again, attention doesn't magically mean the sound waves are travelling at different speeds.

If it was a magical different speed, then as you move away you should hear it fall horribly out of sync before the sound disappears.

But the big issue is the building surrounding the orchestra.
Try it with an open air concert, where you can be a decent distance away from the music source, yet still hear the high pitched notes, and still all in sync.

I know this from enough entering and leaving early of baseball games. I could still hear stuff in the distance but only certain frequencies.
And did you still have a direct line of sight back to the car?

That is delusional BS.
Yes, what you are saying is delusional BS, backed up by nothing. The observations you are appealing to do not back up your delusional BS.

If your delusional BS was true, you would easily be able to measure it.
But you know it is delusional BS so you make no attempt to measure it as you wont be able to dismiss your own measurements as fake.

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bulmabriefs144

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #566 on: February 16, 2023, 11:34:42 PM »
Bulmabriefs, you don’t even understand your own claims.

Take the concert hall out of consideration if it’s confusing you,

Put an orchestra, or any sound source that can output multiple frequencies of sound at a high volume, outside.

Now stand a way away. You do not experience any difference in terms of the times at which different frequencies arriving at your ear.

It’s easy to hear how this effect could be heard, if it did actually exist.

At an outdoor event with multiple PA/tannoy speakers, you can easily detect the difference in distance between speakers as the sound (at all frequencies) travels different distances to your ear. Just to be clear, this is the same sound, arriving at different times, from two sources different distances from the listener.

You never get the effect of the different frequencies from one source arriving at different times. You just don’t. You would be able to hear this effect, if it actually existed, over a few hundred metres.

It doesn’t exist.

Things don't suddenly not exist because you say so.

Rewatch the Roxette video. It appears to be outside with only walls around the edges. But you're the one who has been xonfused. I mentioned a baseball stadium. This is pretty damned outside for the most part. Further, I've been to farmer's markets, and with all the COVID crap, outdoor concerts and even church.

In all cases, I've noticed the same thing happen. Your delusions aren't real.

But hey, let's help you visualize this.

A cat is moseying along one side of a street. Behind it, a dog is rushing to keep up. A skateboarder is on the other side of the street. Nearby (just for fun), a snail is moving along. In the road is a car and a scooter.
All are on the same physical area, and can be seem together. Let's say that for one harmonious moment, all of these are perfectly lined up. This would be a similar effect to that of perfectly synchronized music, but you'll note that these things/critters aren't traveling the same speed. They just happen to overlap.

You can hear music that starts at the same time, at the same time, as you yourself explained, "sound is not like radio, it's affected by the air (and lack thereof)." That is, the sound waves may create a vibration that travels at the same rate, but they have different rates of breakdown.
 This is observable phenomenon.
I have been to enough outdoor concerts and baseball games to know that when you leave, certain sounds simply do not carry well at range.

You can tell me lies all you want, but it doesn't make them true. At range, several blocks around from an outdoor event (most common in my area is farmer's market), I hear a drum beat. I get closer, then I start to hear the guitar, flute, or bagpipes. But there is an audible spot where I walk into or out of the festival and it sounds almost like tribal drums. No other sound can be picked out, just drums banging away. In fact, at close range, the drums don't really register. On the outskirts, first thing I hear. I am fairly certain that musicians don't suddenly stop playing treble when I move away.
So you can say that I hear it all at a distance. Obviously, you've never left a concert early to beat the traffic, because that is not what happens. You're not far enough away.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2023, 11:47:40 PM by bulmabriefs144 »
If ρ=m/V, then B=ρsurfobj


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JackBlack

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #567 on: February 16, 2023, 11:56:53 PM »
Things don't suddenly not exist because you say so.
Things don't suddenly exist because you say so.

In all cases, I've noticed the same thing happen. Your delusions aren't real.
So far you are the one spouting complete garbage, with no evidence to support your claims, and the evidence provided by countless people demonstrating your claims are wrong.
So if anyone has delusions that aren't real, it is you.

That is, the sound waves may create a vibration that travels at the same rate
So your claim that they travel at different speeds is pure BS.

You can tell me lies all you want
You are the one spouting lies here, still clinging to the delusional BS of sound waves being on the EM spectrum.

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Stash

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #568 on: February 17, 2023, 12:48:27 AM »
I hear a drum beat. I get closer, then I start to hear the guitar, flute, or bagpipes.

I always here the bagpipes first before I hear the drums.

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Gonzo230

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #569 on: February 17, 2023, 03:44:58 AM »

I have been to enough outdoor concerts and baseball games to know that when you leave, certain sounds simply do not carry well at range.

You can tell me lies all you want, but it doesn't make them true. At range, several blocks around from an outdoor event (most common in my area is farmer's market), I hear a drum beat. I get closer, then I start to hear the guitar, flute, or bagpipes. But there is an audible spot where I walk into or out of the festival and it sounds almost like tribal drums. No other sound can be picked out, just drums banging away. In fact, at close range, the drums don't really register. On the outskirts, first thing I hear. I am fairly certain that musicians don't suddenly stop playing treble when I move away.
So you can say that I hear it all at a distance. Obviously, you've never left a concert early to beat the traffic, because that is not what happens. You're not far enough away.

Yes, for maybe the fifth or sixth time, this has nothing to do with the speed of of the sound wave. Just like your comments about FM radio and AM radio had nothing to do with the speed of the radio waves.

Speed is the rate at which something covers a distance. It's not longevity, rate of decay, or susceptibility to attenuation. None of that matters when you are talking about speed of propagation.

You make all thse claims about speed of various waves, but then immediately give details about other characteristics of waves.

Why don't you concentrate on the speed issue?

I'll ask again, if we don't know the exact speed that radio waves travel, how does radar work?