Cool Mission?

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NotSoSkeptical

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #510 on: February 06, 2023, 08:35:49 PM »
You clearly don't know the difference between waves and particles.
I suppose that I shouldn't bring up the particle-wave duality of photons.
https://photonterrace.net/en/photon/duality/

I will say no, because duality comes to play in the quantum spectrum most specifically with photons.  Outside of quantum mechanics, waves are waves and particles are particles.  Radio waves aren't particles.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2023, 03:55:38 PM by NotSoSkeptical »
If "deserving" time was a factor for responding on these forums, then no one would be here posting.

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bulmabriefs144

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #511 on: February 06, 2023, 09:26:29 PM »
Once again, you fail to actually address anything.

To use a radio analogy; you’re stuck on transmit, and your signal to noise ratio is very, very low.

Interesting you use the phrase ‘doubling down’. You just keep demonstrating you have no working knowledge of radio, radar, WiFi and cellular networks.

Let’s start at the basics. Read up on AM and FM radio. That might help you to understand how radio can function.

Why exactly should I read up on it? I can learn a sizable amount about radio simply by observing things.

You have yet to demonstrate that EM frequency is actually at light speed. You talk about how it's obvious. Or how it was proven. About four or five pages of me demanding any kind of proof, you just repeat the same stupid questions, and expect some magical different response. I don't care to be indoctrinated, so I'll not read.

You are not even sheep. You are parrots. Parrots repeat words and concepts that they don't actually understand.

You throw around words like "quantum", and you have as much understanding of the term as the authors of this show.

Wait no, that's an insult to the writers of Quantum Leap. They had actual creativity.

Wave is so called because the crest and trough of the sound/light/etc resembles the rise and fall of waves of water.

Particle is a word meaning a fragment of something. For instance, a particle of light is one mote or speck of light. In English grammar, particles are words that don't really fit with the traditional eight parts of speech - noun, verb, pronoun, adjective, preposition, adverb, interjection, conjunction. For instance, a preposition like "up" becomes a particle when it is fragmented from its original definition (e.g. "eat up").     

Molecule is a unit of several different atoms (such as C6H12O6).

Yes, I do understand the difference between a wave and a particle.

You don't observe anything! I walked toward the post office today to drop mail, and I noticed satellite dishes and their position.
1. Satellite dish for direct TV near a seed store (10 degree or so). I turned around, and I saw a radio antenna in direct line of sight to the dish.
2. Satellite dish for post office. I was able to make a line of sight to a second antenna. This was maybe 45 degrees.
3. Second satellite dish for the second antenna near a house to the right of the post office, and much closer to the antenna. This one was about 80 degrees, again pointing to general direction of the antenna. 

All three were pointing to an antenna. Not supposed objects in the sky.

Everything you read in books about FM & AM was propaganda.



Including this quote.  ;)

Strive to become sheep. Sheep follow other sheep but at least when they bleat, it isn't just words being muttered that other people said like parrots. Even sheeple is a step up from that.
If ρ=m/V, then B=ρsurfobj


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Stash

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #512 on: February 06, 2023, 10:56:59 PM »
Why exactly should I read up on it? I can learn a sizable amount about radio simply by observing things.

You have yet to demonstrate that EM frequency is actually at light speed.

From your observations what have you determined the speed of EM is? What are your measurements and how did you gather them? Are your experiments repeatable with consistent predictable results?

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JackBlack

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #513 on: February 06, 2023, 11:12:51 PM »
Why exactly should I read up on it?
Because you are spouting the same delusional garbage again and again showing a fundamental lack of understanding of how radio telecommunication works.

So you either have no idea what you are talking about, and should read up on it, or you are intentionally lying ot everyone.

You have yet to demonstrate that EM frequency is actually at light speed.
You have been provided with evidence (including the everyday use of radar) which you dismiss as fake.
Providing you any more evidence would be pointless as you would likewise dismiss it as fake.
If you aren't satisfied with that evidence, you can go collect your own evidence.

I don't care to be indoctrinated, so I'll not read.
So you end up being indoctrinated into a FE cult, and spouting all sorts of delusional BS.

You are not even sheep. You are parrots. Parrots repeat words and concepts that they don't actually understand.
Which would make you a parrot (unless you do understand and are intentionally lying to everyone).
You have no basis to claim that we don't understand.

Everything you read in books about FM & AM was propaganda.
Why?
Because you hate reality?

Strive to become sheep.
No. I will continue to be an intelligent human being and object to your delusional, idiotic BS.

You provide nothing to support any of your delusional BS. And even when it is explained why it is wrong, you just keep on repeating it. Truly pathetic, and definitely not something to strive for.

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Gonzo230

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #514 on: February 07, 2023, 01:55:05 AM »
Cutting out all the nonsense, FM radio is an interesting case, Bulmabriefs.

It works by modulating the frequency (hence FM).

This signal being transmitted is represented by the changing frequency of the carrier wave. In which case, according to your claim, different parts of the signal would arrive at different times (your claim being the as frequency increases, so does speed of radiation).

This would mean that FM radio would be unable to function if your claim held true.

The varying frequency of the carrier wave of FM is why each FM radio station takes up so much width on the EM spectrum.

For example, a local radio station here broadcasts on 106.5MHz. If you tune your radio to 106.0MHz or 107MHz you’d still pick it up, although weaker and more prone to interference. You’d really need at least 2 or 3MHz of clear space between each FM frequency.

Above 108MHz is the civil aviation band, 108-118 being used for navigation aids, and above 118MHz the voice air band. Frequencies can be spaced as little as 0.008MHz apart. The freqs I use at work are 118.505, 118.705, 121.905, 121.980, 121.705, 124.475 MHz. You can see how accurate is freq is, to the third decimal place.

The voice airband is AM, not FM. This allows far more closely spaced frequencies, for example.

I ask again, where are you getting all of this from? Have you formed all of this yourself?

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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #515 on: February 07, 2023, 02:39:47 AM »

 You have yet to demonstrate that EM frequency is actually at light speed.

False statement..or blatant lie.

Speed of radio has been measured in the lab.

Noise/static on the radio caused by lighting.


The use of lightning detectors and radios prove your full of crap

Items you only have hand waved off, or ignored.  Then try to change the subject. 


Quote from: DataOverFlow2022 link=topic=91223.msg2393818y#msg2393818 date=1675347035

What, you get to cite secondhand facts as though they are proof, but I do not? How unfair!


Do you live in a hole in the ground.

You never listen to the radio and heard interference from a lightning storm?


How a lightning detector works is demonstrable reality.

They are used in industry to keep construction workers and crafts working in steel structures safe.  It gives a warning to clear the steel structure and get workers to shelter.

Manufactured professional grade lightning detectors made for safety programs gives indication of lighting in the area, and when it’s time to bring everyone out of the steel structure and in to a safe building.

There would be a huge liability issue if lightning detection didn’t work, and didn’t work as advertised. And if they didn’t work on the faster radio electromagnetic radiation released by lighting.

You
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If I can look up things online, and you get to reject them and say "how do you know?" Yet you get to rant on and on about how I'm "lying" about established reality.

You can literally build a lightning detector for yourself.

You literally can see in the design provided of a diy lightning detector, the lightning detector doesn’t need a microphone and a speaker.  It doesn’t need to detect sound.



Quote
Either one is true, but you have to pick:
1. We can take secondhand facts and use them, because other people's reports can be trusted
2.There is no established reality, and scientist guess at things.


I don’t have to use “secondhand” facts.

I have a better basic understanding of radio waves / radiation than you.


I have been driving and seen a lighting flash and heard the simultaneous static noise from the radio. Then heard the resultant thunder whole seconds later.


I have used a professional grade manufactured lighting detector to help provide safe working conditions for contractors.


Saying “secondhand” is your way of trying to disregard well established reality.  The history of lighting detection.  And the established principles of lighting detection circuits. 


You
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The only way out of this is to understand that reality is like a storybook that isn't all done yet.

Lightning detection is not a story. It’s a well established science that keeps people safe. It uses the basic principles of a tuned circuit for radio waves.  Which is tuned to the most common frequency of radio waves created by lightning


Why a radio tuner works.
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Your radio receiver needs a tuner. The antenna will receive thousands of sine waves. The job of a tuner is to separate one sine wave from the thousands of radio signals that the antenna receives. In this case, the tuner is tuned to receive the 680,000-hertz signal. Tuners work using a principle called resonance. That is, tuners resonate at, and amplify, one particular frequency and ignore all the other frequencies in the air. It is easy to create a resonator with a capacitor and an inductor (check out How Oscillators Work to see how inductors and capacitors work together to create a tuner).


https://electronics.howstuffworks.com/radio.htm

If you missed it “It is easy to create a resonator with a capacitor and an inductor”

Radio frequencies induce electron flow in an antenna, the desired radio frequency is tuned in by a resonator with a capacitor and inductor with no need to capture sound waves with a microphone.

A lighting detector is designed to tune in to the most common electromagnetic radio wave frequency generated by lightning called radio static of lightning, and triggers an alarm.  The lighting detector does not work on the principles of sound waves.  Doesn’t need a microphone.

The rest of your delusional rant is garbage, and has nothing to do with lighting generating radio electromagnetic radiation that is detectable by a lighting detector.  Which has nothing to do with sound waves.  And demonstrates radio waves travel faster and at different speeds than sound waves.


What, you get to cite secondhand facts as though they are proof, but I do not? How unfair!


Let’s think about the speed of sound vs speed of radio waves.

Having served in the military and just living in general.  I have used CB radio, used military portable radio, played with walkie-talkie’s.  Listening to people call the local radio station.  Had a little RadioShack kit that let you listen to passenger jets. 

And the speed of sound being around 1000 feet  / second.

I have never notice a 5 second delay talking to someone over a mile away by radio communication.

Or a 15 second delay talking to someone 3 miles away. 

30 miles is 158,400 feet?

Take 158,400 feet and divide by the speed of sound at sea level. That is 145 seconds.  Or 2.4 minutes.

There is no evidence that conversation by radio 30 miles apart has a lag of 2.4 minutes between the two radio sets.  Radio travels much faster than the speed of sound. 


Note.  Added after thought.  Or fighter jets and missiles traveling over the speed of sound can’t communicate in real time by radio because they are traveling faster than the speed of radio?


Thinking radio is sound waves is delusional and ignorant.  It’s just stupid.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2023, 02:41:55 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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Gonzo230

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #516 on: February 07, 2023, 05:56:14 AM »


You have yet to demonstrate that EM frequency is actually at light speed. You talk about how it's obvious. Or how it was proven. About four or five pages of me demanding any kind of proof, you just repeat the same stupid questions, and expect some magical different response. I don't care to be indoctrinated, so I'll not read.


As I’ve said more than a few times, I’m an air traffic controller and am considered to be a subject matter expert on airport and ATC radar systems.

I use the following radars at LHR.

Wavelength.            Freq.
23cm.                      1.3GHz
10cm.                      3GHz
3cm.                        10GHz

You are claiming that all of us in aviation know all the different speeds of EM radiation and produce radars and systems to make it look like all the different radiation travels at the same speed, yes? That this is part of the Grand Conspiracy (tm)? Or is it just the manufacturers who are in on the conspiracy and those of us who use and specify the technical and operational requirements of radars and radio systems are ignorant of the real details?

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bulmabriefs144

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #517 on: February 08, 2023, 06:46:01 AM »
Why exactly should I read up on it? I can learn a sizable amount about radio simply by observing things.

You have yet to demonstrate that EM frequency is actually at light speed.

From your observations what have you determined the speed of EM is? What are your measurements and how did you gather them? Are your experiments repeatable with consistent predictable results?

Yes. I have determined that declaring you or I know such speed is the height of hubris. I have declared that  the speed of light waves and maybe UV & infrared is light speed, that frequencies higher than that probably go at faster that light, and that other frequencies go at somewhere between light speed and the speed of sound. Actually, if we're being honest, even light particles do so, as we haven't found a system of perfect conduction and a vacuum is not it (rather as a science forum said, it's a system of perfect resistance where waves only bypass if they have excess energy, and get closer to stall each inch of vacuum), meaning light speed unfortunately is at resistance. But for the most part the model is as such. Do I know the exact speed? No I don't. I don't make a experiments and pretend that I know all speed is identical either though. I know radio waves are passed along at a faster rate than than the speed of sound because we would otherwise have to prerecord every live show months in advance. But neither is it realistic to say that it is fast enough for radio signals to reach the entire world 8 times over. We have noticeable lag to wifi signals, which are at higher frequency than radio. If wifi is more energetic (faster) than radio, this means the car radio isn't as good as internet. So, if our internet speeds leave something to be desired, and despite everything cannot deliver a dowload of as big as we can imagine instantly, or stream without some static or choppiness, or hold a video chat without the occasional glitch, then radio speeds are even worse. How long does a microwave take to cook food? Well, it travels into the burger and fries, but the energy id not instantaneous. There is no lightspeed cooking. Not that heat (a different thing) could be measured by light speed, but the point is that these frequencies... we don't know what they are to pin a number to them, but we know what they are NOT. They are nor light speed, they are too laggy for that. But then, they don't need to be, as we are not sending a People Of Earth broadcast. I am able to get a signal supposedly from Korea on XM, but the time didn't add up for anything but prerecorded broadcast. I know this, because they were doing a broadcast for 2AM their time.
Yeah right. This is inserted into time slots by computer. Music, commercials, radio announcer, and shoved into slots. They chunk several days of time slots, play this for several days, and take a break when a bunch of slots are done. If they rack up a few months of time slots, they get to take a holiday after feeding it into the computer.

The "live" notification is meaningless, as I can play a track of songs long and my own recorded voice live. I just do the recording a day or month before, and I am live pushing the play button. Even live shows on tv have special effects. These special effects have been prerecorded, such as adding in sound or lights or special effects. What it means when the Bachelor is on Hulu live is that it's playing at the tims it was supposed to play. But the Bachelor is filmed 6 months earlier. Even football games which are supposedly live have an instant replay cut. It's all abour as real as wrestling. Instead of denying it, we should finally embrace the kayfabe. EM waves aren't at light speed, but radio companies act like they are.



Btw, fighter planes are passing overhead because Biden is a fucking jackass, and it's giving off shock waves. The effect is not instantaneous, but maybe slightly past mach speed. We have a predictable progression of speed which is why the sudden jump in rocket speeds is just so much unbelievability.

If you think we can move from sound waves to producing waves at light speed without making progression in between, you're pretty gullible or you're part of the problem.

« Last Edit: February 08, 2023, 07:05:01 AM by bulmabriefs144 »
If ρ=m/V, then B=ρsurfobj


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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #518 on: February 08, 2023, 07:11:53 AM »

But neither is it realistic to say that it is fast enough for radio signals to reach the entire world 8 times over.

What? 



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We have noticeable lag to wifi signals, which are at higher frequency than radio.

Radio waves were and can still be analog.  They induce a current in the antenna that directly drives the radio circuits to produce a current for the speaker. 

Wi-Fi is digital and “encoded” for lack of a better term.  The information must be processed to the right data packets used by the system, broadcast, recievrd, download, the packets converted to usable sound, text, and graphics.  There are layers of digital process, encoding, encryption, firewalls, and coding/decoding not used in analog radio.  Items that are effected by actual processing speed of the equipment used.

The difference of equipment with something like a 286 processor running at 4 megahertz vs equipment with something like core I9 processor with 8 cores clocked at 5 gigahertz.

Radio vs Wi-Fi are usually used and processed in totally different ways. Radio straight from the tap directly inducing current to a speaker, WI-Fi different layers of processing and security. 


Quote
How long does a microwave take to cook food?

You’re ignoring intensity.  The maximum setting on a 500 watt microwave is going to cook with less power/intensity than a 1200 watt microwave. 

It’s like the light output and heat output of a 5 watt light bulb vs a 100 watt lightbulb.





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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #519 on: February 08, 2023, 07:16:27 AM »

If you think we can move from sound waves to producing waves at light speed without making progression in between, you're pretty gullible or you're part of the problem.


Lighting detection and efforts made in 1895 just one small part of the progression you ignore out of intellectual dishonesty.

Radio and the electromagnetic spectrum has been part of the world since creation. 


Quote

A Brief History of Lightning Detection


https://scijinks.gov/lightning-detection/




That’s what Alexander Popov was thinking when he set out to build a long-range radio wave receiver to detect lightning back in 1895.



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Stash

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #520 on: February 08, 2023, 08:14:15 AM »
Why exactly should I read up on it? I can learn a sizable amount about radio simply by observing things.

You have yet to demonstrate that EM frequency is actually at light speed.

From your observations what have you determined the speed of EM is? What are your measurements and how did you gather them? Are your experiments repeatable with consistent predictable results?

Yes. I have determined that declaring you or I know such speed is the height of hubris.

So you have no idea. You're just making it up as you go. Got it.

Even football games which are supposedly live have an instant replay cut.

How come I've been able to sit in the stands at a football game and have the live broadcast on my phone and it synchs with the reality of what I'm seeing in person? Even when they cut to the pundits back in New York, 3000 miles away from where I'm sitting?

I was at a Red Sox game a few years back and had owners box seats (long story) right next to the dugout on the first base line. I was with my buddy, Will. A camera panned over and we were on the Jumbotron and broadcast for a few of seconds. About 2 seconds later, Will gets a text from a friend in CT saying, "OMG, I just saw you in the owner's box! How did you get those seats?" He had no prior knowledge that we were even there. In other words, LIVE.

And you probably have never been to an NFL, MLB, NBA or NHL game that is live broadcast so you wouldn't know this. But periodically, throughout a game, the will literally stop the for a commercial break. It's weird to see. A batter get's struck out, then a doritos commercial starts on the live nationwide broadcast and all the players just stand there, milling about for 30 seconds. Then the Ump yells, "Play ball!". And they get back to it.

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bulmabriefs144

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #521 on: February 08, 2023, 08:52:00 AM »

But neither is it realistic to say that it is fast enough for radio signals to reach the entire world 8 times over.

What? 

What what? Every light speed calculation measures the speed As fast enough to circle 8 times in a single second.
 

 
Quote
186,000 mi/second (for speed of light)
Quote
24,901.461 mi (miles circumference)

186000 / 24901.461 = 7.46944125086

So not only show an uninterrupted radio system be able to reach every corner of the "globe" but it should have the energy to do it 8 times. This has not been tested, and in fact is highly implausible. We simply don't have this sorta thing going on.


Quote
We have noticeable lag to wifi signals, which are at higher frequency than radio.

Radio waves were and can still be analog.  They induce a current in the antenna that directly drives the radio circuits to produce a current for the speaker. 

Doubling down, I see. No explanation for that every internet I have ever used, including in big cities, none of them ever produced a signal at light speed. I would have been able to download GB or even TB of data instantly if that were the case. The mere fact that rhere can be faster or slower internet means that signals have a rate.

Radio vs Wi-Fi are usually used and processed in totally different ways. Radio straight from the tap directly inducing current to a speaker, WI-Fi different layers of processing and security. 

Sure thing. Except at light speed, shouldn't signals reach instantly at the time of day it is? I imagine at 8AM at Seoul you could receive a signal at 8AM in US, as unlike the signal from the supposed distance of the sun as the Earth turns (the Earth doesn't turn at light speed in a RE model), you're sending around/across. That is radio at light speed can bypass timezones. In other words Korean radio gets there early, having none of the filters you mentioned. Instead, it goes exactly the rate of Earth's rotation, that is, exactly on sync with timezones.
Earth is flat, and they're playing games with radio.

Btw, Seoul is more or less exactly Earth's diameter from where I live. Oh sure, it could get there at light speed. But it only gas to travel 7058.5 mi/s to get there instantly. Not 186,000 mi/s. That is, light speed could get information there about 25 times as fast. But we do have static, breaking of signals and all the rest. Almost as though these signals aren't as fast or as powerful as advertised.



Quote
How long does a microwave take to cook food?

You’re ignoring intensity.  The maximum setting on a 500 watt microwave is going to cook with less power/intensity than a 1200 watt microwave. 

It’s like the light output and heat output of a 5 watt light bulb vs a 100 watt lightbulb.

Yes, I'm ignoring intensity. Because you've ignored that I mentioned that heat and light are not the same measurements.
 And that I was using analogy. You remember analogy in school, right?
Time:hours::music:whole notes
Analogies are a way that intelligent people string together ideas. They don't need to be 1'1 identical, they need to be thematically similar. If I wanted to use the heat analogy of light speed, I guess it would be Planck temperature (only Planck temperature is waaay hotter than light speed is fast, and there are tachyon particles, whereas at Planck temperature not only would the meat cook instantly, but meat, plate, and room would likely all incinerate and vaporize instantly).
If ρ=m/V, then B=ρsurfobj


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Stash

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #522 on: February 08, 2023, 09:14:13 AM »
Doubling down, I see. No explanation for that every internet I have ever used, including in big cities, none of them ever produced a signal at light speed. I would have been able to download GB or even TB of data instantly if that were the case. The mere fact that rhere can be faster or slower internet means that signals have a rate.

Bandwidth, packets, and hops. Look it up.

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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #523 on: February 08, 2023, 09:59:24 AM »


Sure thing. Except at light speed, shouldn't signals reach instantly at the time of day it is? I imagine at 8AM at Seoul you could receive a signal at 8AM in US,

How about you place that in Zulu time. 

Quote

What is Zulu (Zulu time)?

Zulu (Zulu time) is used in the military and navigation for timekeeping purposes to avert confusion when coordinating with countries using other time standards. Zulu time is generally used as a term for Universal Coordinated Time (UCT), sometimes called Universal Time Coordinated (UTC) or Coordinated Universal Time (but abbreviated UTC).

Zulu time was created to eliminate the confusion caused by different time zones. It is also sometimes referred to as GMT, or Greenwich Mean Time, although this usage is discouraged by the U.S. military because of its ambiguity.

https://www.techtarget.com/whatis/definition/Zulu-Zulu-time?amp=1

And do you have a specific example of a broadcast.  And convert it to Zulu time for comparison.





Yes, I'm ignoring intensity.



How fast a microwave cooks is based on the power of the microwave.

Quote
To find an approximation of your machine’s wattage, fill a microwave-safe liquid measuring cup with 1 cup cold water. Microwave on High and keep an eye on it, noting how long it takes for the water to come to a boil:

1 1/2 minutes: 1,200 watts

2 minutes: 1,000 watts

2 1/2 minutes: 800 watts

3 minutes: 700 watts

4 minutes: 600 watts

https://www.epicurious.com/expert-advice/how-to-find-adjust-wattage-power-of-microwave-oven-article




Because you've ignored that I mentioned that heat and light are not the same measurements.


Has nothing to do with how fast a microwave cooks is based on how much power it can deliver.

A 1200 watt microwave oven is going to cook food at a faster rate than a 600 watt microwave oven.


 
« Last Edit: February 08, 2023, 10:01:43 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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Gonzo230

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #524 on: February 08, 2023, 10:01:08 AM »
Bulmabriefs,

I see you’re still confused about speed of radiation v speed of data transmission within that radiation.

Here’s an analogy, which you seem to like.

Ok, I have a torch, on a dark night. I want to communicate a signal, let’s call it a data packet, to you, let’s say it’s ten flashes of the torch. Let’s call each flash, a ‘bit’.

Let’s call the speed of the light from the torch, ‘c’.

I turn the torch on for 1 second, then off for one second, then on for one second, then off for one second, and so on, until I have flashed the torch ten times to transmit my data packet. I have transmitted 10 bits in 20 seconds.

0.5 bits per second.

Let’s say I now am quick enough with my finger to flash the torch for half a second, then off for half a second.

That now equates to a data transmission rate of 10 bits in 10 seconds, so 1bit per second. I’ve doubled the data speed while using the same actual mechanism of transmission. C remains the same.

If I hook the torch up to a Raspberry Pi or other small computer running a programme to control the torch, I can send ten flashes each of 0.1 seconds duration. That will need another computer linked to an optical sensor at the other end, as those flashes will be too quick to count with the human eye.

I can now send 10 bits in 2 seconds, so 5 bits per second. You see how changing the way the data is encoded, sent, received and decoded on even the exact same EM frequency and wavelength (in this case visible light) can massively change data rates. The same principle applies to WiFi, cellular data networks, and lots of other ways we send data via the EM spectrum.

And yes, we know that ‘c’ remains the same across the EM spectrum, because as I’ve said, the radars I use at work every day rely on that speed as part of the ‘distance = speed x time’ formula which is used to display radar returns on my radar screens. The radar processing system knows when the radar sends out a pulse, it measures the time lag of the reception of the return, and then uses the speed of light to complete the formula.

It’s really pretty basic.

I’ll ask again….

How does this work if we don’t know the speed of those 3 different frequencies?
How does this work if those speeds are different, depending on the frequency?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2023, 11:28:27 AM by Gonzo230 »

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JackBlack

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #525 on: February 08, 2023, 12:39:31 PM »
I have determined that declaring you or I know such speed is the height of hubris.
And that is just your arrogance.

Your wilful ignorance of reality does not prohibit us from knowing.

I have declared that  the speed of light waves and maybe UV & infrared is light speed, that frequencies higher than that probably go at faster that light, and that other frequencies go at somewhere between light speed and the speed of sound.
Yes, you have baselessly asserted that, with absolutely no rational justification and absolutely no evidence to support it.
You cling to this because it helps prop up your delusional fantasy.
But there is absolutely no reason to think so.

rather as a science forum said, it's a system of perfect resistance where waves only bypass if they have excess energy, and get closer to stall each inch of vacuum
And more blatant lies.
It said nothing of the sort.
A vacuum has an undefined resistance due to no charge carriers. They said that an ELECTRON in a metal, if it has enough energy can escape the metal and then cross the vacuum.

Do I know the exact speed? No I don't. I don't make a experiments and pretend that I know all speed is identical either though.
No, you don't, Instead you CHOOSE to remain wilfully ignorant so you can pretend radio waves are just like sound, spouting whatever delusional BS you can to pretend you are correct.
You don't want to do experiments because you don't want to destroy your own fantasy.
You want to remain wilfully ignorant of reality.

But neither is it realistic to say that it is fast enough for radio signals to reach the entire world 8 times over.
Why?
Because you say so?


We have noticeable lag to wifi signals, which are at higher frequency than radio. If wifi is more energetic (faster) than radio, this means the car radio isn't as good as internet.
And more delusional BS.

The "lag" in wifi comes from a variety of sources, most notably buffering enough packets before the video is displayed, as well as the processing on all the electronics.
That in no way demonstrates a lag in the actual waves carrying the information.
Wifi uses radio waves.

And no, as already established, being higher in energy doesn't make the waves faster.
That is your delusional BS you are yet to justify in any way.

despite everything cannot deliver a dowload of as big as we can imagine instantly
Again, this is data rate, not wave speed.

To test the speed of the wave, you need to see how long it takes for a wave to travel from the source to the destination, not how long it takes for the sources to process data, encode it into a wave which is already being transmitted and likely already started to be received by the time the last of the data is encoded.

Well, it travels into the burger and fries, but the energy id not instantaneous. There is no lightspeed cooking.
This is rate of energy transfer, not the speed of the waves.
If you want to test this, you need to measure how long it takes for the food to begin heating, not how long it takes to complete.
Otherwise you can claim such dishonest BS as the speed of heat transfer from fire is 0, because if you put food in direct contact with fire it doesn't instantly cook.

Quit with the dishonest, pathetic BS.
All it does is show how dishonest, desperate and pathetic you are.

They are nor light speed
All the evidence demonstrates they are. You are yet to provide a single thing to actually challenge this.

If you think we can move from sound waves to producing waves at light speed without making progression in between, you're pretty gullible or you're part of the problem.
If you are an idiot that fails to understand that the type of wave determines the speed (and depending on the type the properties of the medium), and instead delusionaly think that fundamentally different waves should travel at the same or similar speed, then you are an idiot.

Radio is EM radiation, as such it will travel at the speed of EM waves. That is the speed of light.
Why should we have to have an intermediary?

Just consider your same delusional BS and apply it to that intermediary. You could claim we couldn't jump from sound to whatever this intermediary is, and demand another. And then do the exact same to that, and so on; dismissing anything faster than the speed of sound.

So that is another pile of absolute garbage from you.

*

JackBlack

  • 26157
  • +51/-79
Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #526 on: February 08, 2023, 12:54:07 PM »
So not only show an uninterrupted radio system be able to reach every corner of the "globe" but it should have the energy to do it 8 times. This has not been tested, and in fact is highly implausible. We simply don't have this sorta thing going on.
And more delusional BS.

See, there is this large round object called Earth that gets in the way.

Notice how you aren't applying your delusional BS to the sun, and boldly claiming we should see 8 copies of the sun?

It also makes absolutely no sense.
Why use 1 s?
And why claim energy as if that has any impact on the speed, especially as you used speed for the calculation, not energy.

It has the required speed, such that if it was trapped in a waveguide (i.e. something to reflect/refract/diffract the wave to move it in a desired path) then it would be capable of circling Earth ~7.5 times a second.
But in reality, it is not in such a waveguide, and the source only has a certain power, so after a certain distance, the transmissions will not be detectable above the background noise.

Doubling down, I see. No explanation for that every internet I have ever used, including in big cities, none of them ever produced a signal at light speed. I would have been able to download GB or even TB of data instantly if that were the case.
You do appear to be doubling down, and even tripling down.
But you certainly are not seeing. You are choosing to remain wilfully ignorant.
Still refusing to accept the distance between the speed of the carrier wave and the data transfer rate.
Still refusing to discuss a fleet of hatchbacks vs a fleet of trucks and how long it would take to transport a certain amount of weight.

And still no justification for your delusional BS.

Once more, the data rate is based upon how much data you can cram into the carrier wave.
It is NOT simply the speed of the wave.

Your dishonest delusional BS is like saying because a truck can carry more than a car, it must be travelling at a higher speed.
It is pure delusional BS.

You have had it explained to you why this is delusional BS again and again, and you just ignore it and repeat the dishonest delusional BS.

Except at light speed, shouldn't signals reach instantly at the time of day it is?
The wave, not the data.

If you are sending a GB of data over wifi, it isn't all sent by the sending computer in an instant.
Instead, it sends it in packets, with those packets received by the receiving computer practically instantly.
The data is not limited by how long it takes those packets to reach the destination computer, but instead is based upon how many packets can be sent each second.

If your delusional BS was true, you should be able to watch the network connection on each computer, see the sending computer start sending packets, sending them all in a few seconds, and then wait an hour and see the destination computer start receiving all the packets and receive them all in a second.
It should mean that it doesn't matter how large the file is, it should be sent in the same amount of time.

But back in reality, we see the receiving computer start receiving the packets almost instantly, with the time it takes to transfer the data being based upon how large the file is, with a larger file requiring more packets to be sent so it will take longer.

This shows the data transfer is NOT constrained by the speed of the wave.

Yes, I'm ignoring intensity.
Yes, to continue to spout dishonest BS.

You are again pretending that the time it takes to transfer a certain amount of energy into food should be equivalent to the speed of the wave.

Again, if your delusional BS was true, you should ALWAYS have to put food in the microwave for the same amount of time. The microwave would then drain a massive amount of energy in an instant and start sending it to the food, with the food remaining untouched for an extended period of time and then heating up instantly.

But back in reality, we see the microwave continually draws energy and transfers it to the food, with the food heating over a period of time.
The time constraint depends on the wattage of the microwave and how much energy you are transferring. It has NOTHING to do with the speed of the wave.

But that doesn't stop you ignoring all this. You are happy to ignore key facts and blatantly lie to everyone to pretend your dishonest, delusional BS is true.

Claiming it is just an analogy wont help, as even as an analogy it is pure BS.

If you want an analogy, I already provided one in the form of cars.
Your delusional BS is equivalent to claiming that a car and a truck travelling down a highway at 100 km/hr, the truck must be going faster because it is carrying more.
That if a factory is sending out 1 car per minute these cars (travelling at 100 km/hr) must be travelling faster than cars (also travelling at 100 km/hr) from another factory which only sends out 1 car per hour.

Unlike your BS, this analogy has clear connections to what is being discussed. The speed of the car/truck represents the speed of the radio wave. The amount of cars/trucks being sent in a given amount of time, and the capacity of the car/truck shows that the data rate (or heating rate) is not simply the speed the wave is travelling at.

But you entirely ignore this analogy, because it is so simple and clearly demonstrates you are wrong, and you have no counter to it.
So all you can do is bury your head in the sand and repeat the same refuted BS.

*

bulmabriefs144

  • 6256
  • +79/-78
  • Roco the Fox
Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #527 on: February 09, 2023, 04:29:36 AM »
Bulmabriefs,

I see you’re still confused about speed of radiation v speed of data transmission within that radiation.

Here’s an analogy, which you seem to like.

Ok, I have a torch, on a dark night. I want to communicate a signal, let’s call it a data packet, to you, let’s say it’s ten flashes of the torch. Let’s call each flash, a ‘bit’.

Let’s call the speed of the light from the torch, ‘c’.

I turn the torch on for 1 second, then off for one second, then on for one second, then off for one second, and so on, until I have flashed the torch ten times to transmit my data packet. I have transmitted 10 bits in 20 seconds.

0.5 bits per second.

Let’s say I now am quick enough with my finger to flash the torch for half a second, then off for half a second.

That now equates to a data transmission rate of 10 bits in 10 seconds, so 1bit per second. I’ve doubled the data speed while using the same actual mechanism of transmission. C remains the same.

If I hook the torch up to a Raspberry Pi or other small computer running a programme to control the torch, I can send ten flashes each of 0.1 seconds duration. That will need another computer linked to an optical sensor at the other end, as those flashes will be too quick to count with the human eye.

I can now send 10 bits in 2 seconds, so 5 bits per second. You see how changing the way the data is encoded, sent, received and decoded on even the exact same EM frequency and wavelength (in this case visible light) can massively change data rates. The same principle applies to WiFi, cellular data networks, and lots of other ways we send data via the EM spectrum.

And yes, we know that ‘c’ remains the same across the EM spectrum, because as I’ve said, the radars I use at work every day rely on that speed as part of the ‘distance = speed x time’ formula which is used to display radar returns on my radar screens. The radar processing system knows when the radar sends out a pulse, it measures the time lag of the reception of the return, and then uses the speed of light to complete the formula.

It’s really pretty basic.

I’ll ask again….

How does this work if we don’t know the speed of those 3 different frequencies?
How does this work if those speeds are different, depending on the frequency?

Because... the speed involved is conveniently far enough that no one is able to test it.

Using the Korea example, and the assumption that your Earth is round in the first (and that the circumference of the world can be known as 24,901.461 mi despite the fact that this is all extrapolation as very few of us have done honest sailing expeditions across south seas then the north seas to see it the surface area is equal at same N/S latitudes as it would in a round Earth, or continues to widen the further south we go... we take Google Earth's word for it), and in which case you would need to broadcast 24,901.461 mi/s (not 186,000 mi/s) to circle all the Earth instantly.
In other words, a theoretical test for light speed transmission always yields a much lower needed speed because the Earth is simply too small to run such a light speed test. Oh, but it gets worse.

How do we function without "knowing" exact amounts? The same way we function without knowing what a bird is chirping to another bird. It just doesn't matter to us all that much. The speed of radio waves is "fast enough". If I want to listen to a broadcast literally more than 12 hours away, it appears to be instant. The circumference distance will never come into play, and at best we would need to broadcast between the Howland Islands and the Kirbati Islands.

Quote
With this information, then the biggest time difference between two places on earth is a whole 26 hours. The Howland islands, an unincorporated unorganized territory of the United States, use a time zone of -12 hours UTC on the far west of the earth. The Republic of Kiribati’s Line Islands, which have a time zone of +14 hours UTC, are on the far east of the earth. These two places, therefore, have the biggest time difference of 26 hours.

With that in mind, I guess the longest distance on Earth would be Howland Islands to Kirbati Islands?

I guessed wrong. Distance from Kiribati to Howland Island is 2,146 kilometers. It's because timezones don't necessarily jive up perfextly to distance that there is a 26 hour difference. So let's find our the longest distance on Earth. Well, the longest walking distance is South Africa to Magadan (22,387 km), but this is involving a curved path so I dunno. The longest real difference is the equatorial diameter (7,926 miles or not much different from Korea to my location). We'll even double it for sending and receiving.

Only 15,852 mi/s to give the appearance of an instant or "light speed" radio transmission. Not 186,000 mi/s. Radio never needs to be beyond that point so transmission if unequal, could be well slower than we are told.
So, listening to Korean music... assuming it actually is from Korea and not a bunch of hired Korean singers and actors putting on a show in a basement in SoCal, the speed of radio only needs to be fast enough for us to listen to it.

When accounting for speed from Wifi or phone data plans however, if there hasn't been actual progression of speed, then all these frequency adjustments and upgrades in range etc, etc, etc actually involve units per second. If frequency is irrelevant to speed of transmission of data, then there would be no purpose in adjusting frequency to levels that would be in the 5G microwave range. We could simply update working 3G connections and the signal should be as fast as light regardless, you say. Ditto for WiFi, just improve connections.

That this is not done, implies not all signals are equal, and that it is actually necessary to change frequency for reasons other than "we have a cool new thing and it needs to be at a different frequency than the lamer older things to not interfere with signals". In other words, if frequency is being adjusted to carry more data at faster rates, then not all speeds are equal. Or rather not all speed loads (the difference between a person running at 8 mph sprint and and the same sprint done carrying a backpack filled with 40 lb of books) are identical. I'm not actually sure which this is (actual speed or speed load), but the point being, either all electromagnetic frequencies are equal (sounds like lazy science to me) or the differences in frequency have practical value.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2023, 04:44:45 AM by bulmabriefs144 »
If ρ=m/V, then B=ρsurfobj


Here's my Bible, if ya wanna read

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DataOverFlow2022

  • 8424
  • +49/-96
Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #528 on: February 09, 2023, 04:38:59 AM »

Using the Korea example,

How about we use established facts for the Atlantic..

Quote
Transatlantic Radio Links Create Game Changing Advantage for Traders

https://a-teaminsight.com/blog/secret-transatlantic-radio-links-create-game-changing-advantage-for-traders/


The financial markets of London and New York are currently separated by a mere 33 milliseconds via the current lowest latency transatlantic link.



Same source..

Quote

Shortwave radio frequencies bounce between the transmitter source and the destination, reflecting off the ionosphere and the ground. These radio waves also travel at near light speed, crossing the Atlantic in a little over 20 milliseconds. Renewed research in radio communications for over the horizon communications spiked once the Chinese military shot down a satellite on Jan 11, 2007. This event highlighted a weakness in the satellite as a maneuverable WAN device. Defense contractors are investing significant sums in developing platforms to provide operating theatres with reliable data communications at distances of many thousands of miles.



What’s the fucking point again of your endless rambling? 

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Gonzo230

  • 69
  • +0/-1
Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #529 on: February 09, 2023, 07:56:55 AM »
Bulmabriefs,

I see you’re still confused about speed of radiation v speed of data transmission within that radiation.

Here’s an analogy, which you seem to like.

Ok, I have a torch, on a dark night. I want to communicate a signal, let’s call it a data packet, to you, let’s say it’s ten flashes of the torch. Let’s call each flash, a ‘bit’.

Let’s call the speed of the light from the torch, ‘c’.

I turn the torch on for 1 second, then off for one second, then on for one second, then off for one second, and so on, until I have flashed the torch ten times to transmit my data packet. I have transmitted 10 bits in 20 seconds.

0.5 bits per second.

Let’s say I now am quick enough with my finger to flash the torch for half a second, then off for half a second.

That now equates to a data transmission rate of 10 bits in 10 seconds, so 1bit per second. I’ve doubled the data speed while using the same actual mechanism of transmission. C remains the same.

If I hook the torch up to a Raspberry Pi or other small computer running a programme to control the torch, I can send ten flashes each of 0.1 seconds duration. That will need another computer linked to an optical sensor at the other end, as those flashes will be too quick to count with the human eye.

I can now send 10 bits in 2 seconds, so 5 bits per second. You see how changing the way the data is encoded, sent, received and decoded on even the exact same EM frequency and wavelength (in this case visible light) can massively change data rates. The same principle applies to WiFi, cellular data networks, and lots of other ways we send data via the EM spectrum.

And yes, we know that ‘c’ remains the same across the EM spectrum, because as I’ve said, the radars I use at work every day rely on that speed as part of the ‘distance = speed x time’ formula which is used to display radar returns on my radar screens. The radar processing system knows when the radar sends out a pulse, it measures the time lag of the reception of the return, and then uses the speed of light to complete the formula.

It’s really pretty basic.

I’ll ask again….

How does this work if we don’t know the speed of those 3 different frequencies?
How does this work if those speeds are different, depending on the frequency?

Because... the speed involved is conveniently far enough that no one is able to test it.

Using the Korea example, and the assumption that your Earth is round in the first (and that the circumference of the world can be known as 24,901.461 mi despite the fact that this is all extrapolation as very few of us have done honest sailing expeditions across south seas then the north seas to see it the surface area is equal at same N/S latitudes as it would in a round Earth, or continues to widen the further south we go... we take Google Earth's word for it), and in which case you would need to broadcast 24,901.461 mi/s (not 186,000 mi/s) to circle all the Earth instantly.
In other words, a theoretical test for light speed transmission always yields a much lower needed speed because the Earth is simply too small to run such a light speed test. Oh, but it gets worse.

How do we function without "knowing" exact amounts? The same way we function without knowing what a bird is chirping to another bird. It just doesn't matter to us all that much. The speed of radio waves is "fast enough". If I want to listen to a broadcast literally more than 12 hours away, it appears to be instant. The circumference distance will never come into play, and at best we would need to broadcast between the Howland Islands and the Kirbati Islands.

Quote
With this information, then the biggest time difference between two places on earth is a whole 26 hours. The Howland islands, an unincorporated unorganized territory of the United States, use a time zone of -12 hours UTC on the far west of the earth. The Republic of Kiribati’s Line Islands, which have a time zone of +14 hours UTC, are on the far east of the earth. These two places, therefore, have the biggest time difference of 26 hours.

With that in mind, I guess the longest distance on Earth would be Howland Islands to Kirbati Islands?

I guessed wrong. Distance from Kiribati to Howland Island is 2,146 kilometers. It's because timezones don't necessarily jive up perfextly to distance that there is a 26 hour difference. So let's find our the longest distance on Earth. Well, the longest walking distance is South Africa to Magadan (22,387 km), but this is involving a curved path so I dunno. The longest real difference is the equatorial diameter (7,926 miles or not much different from Korea to my location). We'll even double it for sending and receiving.

Only 15,852 mi/s to give the appearance of an instant or "light speed" radio transmission. Not 186,000 mi/s. Radio never needs to be beyond that point so transmission if unequal, could be well slower than we are told.
So, listening to Korean music... assuming it actually is from Korea and not a bunch of hired Korean singers and actors putting on a show in a basement in SoCal, the speed of radio only needs to be fast enough for us to listen to it.

When accounting for speed from Wifi or phone data plans however, if there hasn't been actual progression of speed, then all these frequency adjustments and upgrades in range etc, etc, etc actually involve units per second. If frequency is irrelevant to speed of transmission of data, then there would be no purpose in adjusting frequency to levels that would be in the 5G microwave range. We could simply update working 3G connections and the signal should be as fast as light regardless, you say. Ditto for WiFi, just improve connections.

That this is not done, implies not all signals are equal, and that it is actually necessary to change frequency for reasons other than "we have a cool new thing and it needs to be at a different frequency than the lamer older things to not interfere with signals". In other words, if frequency is being adjusted to carry more data at faster rates, then not all speeds are equal. Or rather not all speed loads (the difference between a person running at 8 mph sprint and and the same sprint done carrying a backpack filled with 40 lb of books) are identical. I'm not actually sure which this is (actual speed or speed load), but the point being, either all electromagnetic frequencies are equal (sounds like lazy science to me) or the differences in frequency have practical value.

Really, if you’re going to quote my posts could you at least address some of the points therein?

I didn’t mention anything about Korea.

In your latest, you claim that we function enough without knowing the exact speed of light.

Please, tell me how.

Again, I use three different radars at work, of differing frequencies. They all depend on the speed of light being known, to put the radar returns that represent aircraft in the correct and accurate location. If the speed they assumed was off by a fraction of a %, the radars would be useless.

We also use what we call ‘permanent echos’ to calibrate our radars, fixed objects, the distances of which (from the radar heads themselves) are known to the nearest metre. For these we know the distance, we measure the time of return, so we can actually measure the speed. Spoiler alert it’s the speed of light.

If you really do have any evidence to the contrary, it’s one of the top the scientific discoveries of all time.

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Gonzo230

  • 69
  • +0/-1
Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #530 on: February 09, 2023, 08:12:51 AM »
And I’ll add….

Nobody has claimed that all signals are equal (I assume you mean here that all forms of transmissions, regardless of frequency).

The speed of transmission is equal, yes, but other characteristics change throughout the EM spectrum.

For example, ELF radio signals can penetrate below the surface of the ocean to a significant depth. This is how the UK, USA and Russia communicate with their submarines. ELF waves suffer from incredibly low attenuation, and they can travel around the globe lots of times before they degrade completely (this actually causes a unique problem; if they are broadcast in all 360 degrees, then on the other side of the world the waves coming from different directions can interact with each other and cause interference. This is why such transmissions are directional in nature), They follow the curvature of the earth through diffraction. The data rate is very slow, perhaps only one or two letters or characters of a message per minute, so they only usually transmit a signal that calls a particular submarine to periscope depth where a radio antenna is raised and HF or other, less exotic radio links are used, with a far higher data transmission rate. These frequencies will not, of course, penetrate down to any depth. Hence this two-stage process.

Another good illustration that speed of data is different to speed of transmission.

*

Stash

  • Ethical Stash
  • 13398
  • +2/-2
  • I am car!
Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #531 on: February 09, 2023, 11:13:36 AM »
Because... the speed involved is conveniently far enough that no one is able to test it.

1955
A Measurement of the Velocity of Propagation of Very-High-Frequency Radio Waves at the Surface of the Earth

These folks performed experiments at the locations at various distance. And dozens of tests within each over many days. The longest was experiment #2, 850.0013 and 1500.0018 m between the transmitting and receiving towers. Taking careful consideration regarding obstructiosns all the way down to vegetation.

After the dozens of tests with a 95% certainty, the measured velocity of the radio waves was that the phase velocity of propagation of radio waves in free space, as determined experimentally in the work covered by this report, is 299795.1 ±3.1 km/sec.

A total of 108 measurements were taken at the various sites:



Here in comparison to a short list of previous experiments:



The measurement of the velocity of propagation over a path between ground and aircraft at 10,000, 20,000 and 30,000 ft
The results of experimental flights observed from two Oboe ground stations in order to measure the velocity of propagation as a function of height above the earth. The results indicate higher velocities than those previously calculated. The most probable values for the mean velocity of propagation between ground and aircraft at 10,000, 20,000 and 30,000 ft are 186,233, 186,246 and 186,256 miles/sec respectively, the metric equivalents being 299,713, 299,733 and 299,750 km/sec respectively.

A method of determining the velocity of radio waves over land on frequencies near 100 kc/s
A method of finding the effective velocity of propagation of radio waves in the 100-kc/s region was developed by the Admiralty Signal Establishment in 1945, using the Decca system—a hyperbolic, phase-measuring navigational aid, at that time utilizing unmodulated continuous waves on 85, 113⅓ and 127½ kc/s from a triplet of stations arranged with two base-lines about 50 km long and situated in flat, low-lying country. The only quantities measured were (a) distances over the earth's surface between transmitting aerials, (b) phase-changes of the order of 100 complete revolutions (measured correct to ± 1/50 revolution) from end to end of the hyperbolic patterns, (c) a radio frequency. Phase readings were taken in an aircraft flying at 1000 ft; the transmitting aerials were 90 ft high.Measurements were taken beyond the “near zone,” that is from 10 to 100 km from the transmitters. As no variation of the velocity with distance could be detected outside the probable experimental error, all readings were grouped together. The final average for the velocity was 2.9925 ± 0.0004 × 108 m/sec, which is lower by 1.4 parts in 1000 than the velocity of short waves through air. It may be proved that the velocity derived from this method is the phase velocity. The results may be correlated with theory.

100km

What do your measurements show?

*

JackBlack

  • 26157
  • +51/-79
Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #532 on: February 09, 2023, 01:35:10 PM »
Because... the speed involved is conveniently far enough that no one is able to test it.
And once again you spout complete garbage.
It makes no sense at all to say the speed makes it far enough.
If it is speed it should be fast enough.

You do not need to set up a start and end point based upon how far it travels in 1 second.

You even provided an example of that with sound.
Notice how in that example they didn't set up a start and end point over 300 m apart?
Instead, they used a small tube to setup a standing wave, and used the wavelength and frequency to determine the speed.
You can do that with light, just like Hertz did.

Or, you can measure the direct travel time over some distance, and that time can be much less than 1 s.
For example, you can get a cheap Arduino with a clock speed of 16 MHz.
So if you can time it down to the clock cycle, that would be timing it down to the nearest 62.5 ns.
As we are now dealing with nanoseconds, it can be better to express the speed of light using nanosecond.
The speed of light is ~2.998e+8 m/s. This corresponds to 0.2998 m/ns.
So in those 62.5 ns, light would travel a mere 18 m.

So it would be fairly easy to set up a system where a radio wave pulse is transmitted, reflected, and returns, over a distance of 1 km or so, and time it using an Arduino, to measure how long it took and calculate the speed of light.
That 2 km round trip would take ~6671 ns.
That equates to ~107 clock cycles.

And that was just a cheap Arduino.

The processor in most modern computers operates at a clock speed of between 1 and 4 GHz.
a 1 GHz processor would be 1 cycle every ns.
In that ns, light would travel 0.3 m, or 30 cm.

So we most certainly CAN test it. Even you can. You just choose not to, because you know that testing it will show you are wrong, and you will have no excuse to dismiss your own measurement.

You are choosing to remain wilfully ignorant of reality and dismiss the evidence that shows you are wrong so you can cling to your fantasy.

in which case you would need to broadcast 24,901.461 mi/s (not 186,000 mi/s) to circle all the Earth instantly.
And more garbage.
An instant is not 1 s.
If you want to reach the entire Earth instantly, it needs to have infinite velocity.

The speed of radio waves is "fast enough". If I want to listen to a broadcast literally more than 12 hours away, it appears to be instant.
But not for things like RADAR and GPS.
With RADAR, if the speed of the radio waves were different, the distances calculated would be different.
RADAR functions by timing how long it takes for the wave to go from the transmitter, hit the object in question and reflect off, and come back to the receiver.
If radio waves were half the speed we thought they were, the distances calculated would be twice as far as they actually are.

This would cause massive problems.

Likewise, GPS relies upon the time delay from the signals being transmitted to them being picked up.
If the speed was different the position calculated would be wrong.

With that in mind, I guess the longest distance on Earth would be Howland Islands to Kirbati Islands?
No. Not at all.
The simplest way to understand this is to recognise that Earth is round, so it loops.
Being 24 hours behind is just being 1 day behind.
If you picked a location right near the international date line, it could be at UTC+12 or UTC-12, as they correspond to the same local time, just on a different day.

You could also do this by converting to degrees.
Each hour is approximately 15 degrees.
So 24 hours would be 360 degrees, which means you would be right where you started.

The greatest separation would be expected to be between locations with 12 hours difference (at equal but opposite latitudes, e.g. one at 30 degrees north one at 30 degrees south, or both on the equator).
That would be something like NZ to UK.

When accounting for speed from Wifi or phone data plans however, if there hasn't been actual progression of speed, then all these frequency adjustments and upgrades in range etc, etc, etc actually involve units per second. If frequency is irrelevant to speed of transmission of data, then there would be no purpose in adjusting frequency to levels that would be in the 5G microwave range. We could simply update working 3G connections and the signal should be as fast as light regardless, you say. Ditto for WiFi, just improve connections.
Continually spouting the same ignorance garbage will not help you.
This garbage of yours has been refuted countless times.

For an incredibly simple example, consider a 1 Hz carrier wave.
This is a wave which changes once per second.

If you tried to use a simple system of transmitting or not transmitting the wave, and ignore the higher frequencies induced by that, do you know what happens if you try and transmit a 10 Hz clock signal?
Some of the bits will be when the carrier is at a very low amplitude, and can easily be lost in the noise.
If you use a system where the "0" is actually a lower intensity signal rather than no signal, you also have the issue that some "0"s will have a higher intensity than some "1s"
But more importantly, you cut it up so it is now actually a 10 Hz wave.

If we do get into the more complex part of the higher frequencies from the square wave, you have a much higher frequency than 1 Hz.
You simply cannot cram an infinite amount of data onto a given carrier signal.

A more appropriate use would be putting a 1 b/s signal onto a 10 Hz carrier.

That this is not done, implies not all signals are equal, and that it is actually necessary to change frequency for reasons other than "we have a cool new thing and it needs to be at a different frequency than the lamer older things to not interfere with signals". In other words, if frequency is being adjusted to carry more data at faster rates, then not all speeds are equal. Or rather not all speed loads (the difference between a person running at 8 mph sprint and and the same sprint done carrying a backpack filled with 40 lb of books) are identical. I'm not actually sure which this is (actual speed or speed load), but the point being, either all electromagnetic frequencies are equal (sounds like lazy science to me) or the differences in frequency have practical value.
Not all signals are equal. A higher frequency, by virtue of being a higher frequency (and nothing at all to do with the velocity of the wave) allows it to carry more data in a given amount of time.

The speed being equal does not mean the signal is equal. It just means the speed is equal. And that is the speed of the wave, not the data rate.
No one has suggested that all frequencies are equal. We have just been saying that all frequencies of EM radiation travel at the speed of light.

Increasing the velocity of the wave would decrease latency, but it wouldn't increase data rate. Data rate is based upon how much data you can cram into the carrier in a given amount of time, not how long it takes that carrier to reach its destination.

Again, your delusional garbage makes as much sense as saying that because a truck and a car both travel at 100 km/hr down a highway, it makes no sense to use a truck, even though it can carry a greater load. That the only possibly way the truck could carry more and thus transfer more, is if it was travelling at a higher speed.
It is dishonest, delusional BS which has been refuted countless times.

And you are even now providing a similar example with a runner.
The "speed loads" i.e. data rate is not identical, because the higher frequencies can carry more data in the same period of time.

Each time you ignore this and repeat the same dishonest, delusional, refuted BS, you are just how dishonest, desperate and pathetic you are.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2023, 01:38:08 PM by JackBlack »

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bulmabriefs144

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #533 on: February 10, 2023, 06:53:40 AM »
Because... the speed involved is conveniently far enough that no one is able to test it.

1955
A Measurement of the Velocity of Propagation of Very-High-Frequency Radio Waves at the Surface of the Earth

These folks performed experiments at the locations at various distance. And dozens of tests within each over many days. The longest was experiment #2, 850.0013 and 1500.0018 m between the transmitting and receiving towers. Taking careful consideration regarding obstructiosns all the way down to vegetation.

After the dozens of tests with a 95% certainty, the measured velocity of the radio waves was that the phase velocity of propagation of radio waves in free space, as determined experimentally in the work covered by this report, is 299795.1 ±3.1 km/sec.

A total of 108 measurements were taken at the various sites:



Here in comparison to a short list of previous experiments:



The measurement of the velocity of propagation over a path between ground and aircraft at 10,000, 20,000 and 30,000 ft
The results of experimental flights observed from two Oboe ground stations in order to measure the velocity of propagation as a function of height above the earth. The results indicate higher velocities than those previously calculated. The most probable values for the mean velocity of propagation between ground and aircraft at 10,000, 20,000 and 30,000 ft are 186,233, 186,246 and 186,256 miles/sec respectively, the metric equivalents being 299,713, 299,733 and 299,750 km/sec respectively.

A method of determining the velocity of radio waves over land on frequencies near 100 kc/s
A method of finding the effective velocity of propagation of radio waves in the 100-kc/s region was developed by the Admiralty Signal Establishment in 1945, using the Decca system—a hyperbolic, phase-measuring navigational aid, at that time utilizing unmodulated continuous waves on 85, 113⅓ and 127½ kc/s from a triplet of stations arranged with two base-lines about 50 km long and situated in flat, low-lying country. The only quantities measured were (a) distances over the earth's surface between transmitting aerials, (b) phase-changes of the order of 100 complete revolutions (measured correct to ± 1/50 revolution) from end to end of the hyperbolic patterns, (c) a radio frequency. Phase readings were taken in an aircraft flying at 1000 ft; the transmitting aerials were 90 ft high.Measurements were taken beyond the “near zone,” that is from 10 to 100 km from the transmitters. As no variation of the velocity with distance could be detected outside the probable experimental error, all readings were grouped together. The final average for the velocity was 2.9925 ± 0.0004 × 108 m/sec, which is lower by 1.4 parts in 1000 than the velocity of short waves through air. It may be proved that the velocity derived from this method is the phase velocity. The results may be correlated with theory.

100km

What do your measurements show?

These are published measurements by a scientific journal. They wish for you to see the world a certain way so that you can buy merch.




No outer space hype, no merch. No tax donations to the space program either.

When I was in science (horticulture) class in college, and realized they wanted me to make a graph of the growth of two sets of plants. I realized I'd not actually made measurements. I quickly drew out a graph showing the rough growth of these plants. I passed with a totally fake graph.

If I, a weird kid that thought "some college" meant... nevermind, if even a dumbass like me was able to make an impromptu graph on the spot, then a person wishing to promote a narrative most certainly can make results go the way they want them.

What evidence do we have for this evidence?

Last night, I watched part of a film called Knowing with Nicholas Cage. Some creepy girl was writing numbers on a page. We're supposed to be like "She knows ancient secrets" or something but numbers on a page doesn't have quite the same mystique about it after Common Core, in 2023. What I saw instead was some derpy girl writing meaningless crap on a page.

I could tell you that two radios bounced back a signal, and I was sure that it went this speed. I add a decimal point so you're convinced. Only I'm not convinced. Because all of this translates to merch. Overvalue goods, and people generally buy them. They don't ask, "Why the hell am I paying $1200 for this new Apple smartphone when it looks no different from the other Apple phones, and requires a whole new plug and won't fit in the same case?" Because they're told that the phone is lightning fast, with the latest G of signals from the latest satellite systems. Only if all frequencies are the same, what the hell is the point?

 This equal speed theory is endorsed by NASA.

I typed in NASA electromagnetic spectrum, I got no less than eight articles of propaganda. Probably more if I visited another page.

So no, I don't buy such chart. Particularly since I can make an old looking page myself and fill it with columns and numbers. In fact, maybe I'll do that later.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2023, 06:59:44 AM by bulmabriefs144 »
If ρ=m/V, then B=ρsurfobj


Here's my Bible, if ya wanna read

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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #534 on: February 10, 2023, 07:07:22 AM »

I could tell you that two radios bounced back a signal, l

And.  Again.  Companies and individuals are willing on gambling on what the speed of radio is…


Using the Korea example,

How about we use established facts for the Atlantic..

Quote
Transatlantic Radio Links Create Game Changing Advantage for Traders

https://a-teaminsight.com/blog/secret-transatlantic-radio-links-create-game-changing-advantage-for-traders/


The financial markets of London and New York are currently separated by a mere 33 milliseconds via the current lowest latency transatlantic link.



Same source..

Quote

Shortwave radio frequencies bounce between the transmitter source and the destination, reflecting off the ionosphere and the ground. These radio waves also travel at near light speed, crossing the Atlantic in a little over 20 milliseconds. Renewed research in radio communications for over the horizon communications spiked once the Chinese military shot down a satellite on Jan 11, 2007. This event highlighted a weakness in the satellite as a maneuverable WAN device. Defense contractors are investing significant sums in developing platforms to provide operating theatres with reliable data communications at distances of many thousands of miles.


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bulmabriefs144

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #535 on: February 10, 2023, 08:51:14 AM »
They're not gambling at all.

They're using your money to bet, and they are certain you won't call their bluff.

Quote

Btw. I promised a serious-looking chart to show how easy it is to fill a page with crap.



And this is why I don't trust statistics. This took what, an hour and a half to make? And most it was watching Tootsie Pop commercials.

You guys don't deal in facts! You deal in other people's statistics.

Quote from:  Mark Twain
Figures often beguile me, particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

Facts? No. We don't have any facts verifying that electromagnetic waves are at the same rate. We have statistics.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2023, 09:06:05 AM by bulmabriefs144 »
If ρ=m/V, then B=ρsurfobj


Here's my Bible, if ya wanna read

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DataOverFlow2022

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #536 on: February 10, 2023, 10:06:23 AM »

 I promised a serious-looking chart to show how easy it is to fill a page with crap.


Which has noting to do with companies and individuals doing real time buying and selling of stocks.

The only argument you have against the different ways to observe and measure speed of radio transmissions presented by various people is to live in myth and delusion.




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Gonzo230

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #537 on: February 10, 2023, 10:53:06 AM »
Is this the first time the conspiracy has been defined as a vehicle to sell space merch?

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NotSoSkeptical

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #538 on: February 10, 2023, 11:05:51 AM »
Is this the first time the conspiracy has been defined as a vehicle to sell space merch?

Probably not.
If "deserving" time was a factor for responding on these forums, then no one would be here posting.

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Alexei

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Re: Cool Mission?
« Reply #539 on: February 10, 2023, 11:21:44 AM »


And this is why I don't trust statistics. This took what, an hour and a half to make? And most it was watching Tootsie Pop commercials.

You guys don't deal in facts! You deal in other people's statistics.


By "fact" do you mean "ignoring other peoples knowledge while spouting total BS"?
It's like saying "I don't believe you as you're right and I'm wrong".