What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?

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Unconvinced

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #420 on: December 12, 2022, 12:18:28 PM »
This is exactly what I mean by being dragged into your arguments with other people.  I gave my own reasons why I don’t consider flat earth “models” to be in any scientific (largely being not based on scientific reasoning or methodology).  My opinions are entirely separate from anything Timeisup or anyone else says.
And the issue is that most of those reasons apply equally to other models.
Again, the Bohr model was made at a time where there were already observations that demonstrated it didn't work.
These observations where ignored to construct the Bohr model of the atom, which one could argue should really be called the Bohr model of hydrogen, as it only works for hydrogen.

Really?  Did Bohr say other scientists were liars and frauds?  Did he invent vast unfounded conspiracy theories?  Did he arbitrarily dismiss contradictory evidence and other fields of science as fake?   

These are the things I objected to, because as I said, they have no place in science.  It goes back to Rowbotham's snake oil nonsense (who incidentally rejected the scientific method), and only got worse in the recent resurgence.

Bohr devised an imperfect model that explained some things, but not everything.  As far as I'm aware, he knew about some of these shortcomings and attempted to fix them.   His model is still considered an advancement on previous models that lead to further scientific understanding and subsequent better models.



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What’s missing from this is the whole point of a scientific model, which is to help explain and understand a thing.  A model of the shape of the earth should be to describe and understand the Earth.  That’s fundamentally different from simplifying equations by saying that curvature is insignificant.
Not really.
A model is not simply used to understand or explain.
It is used to make predictions and calculations or other things from it as well.

For example a model of a transistor is not simply used to understand how a transistor works, but also to create things like a computer.

Regardless, simplifying the ground to be flat in a flight model because curvature is negligible over short distances is hardly a "flat earth" model.  Certainly not in the same way that Bohr's atom is a scientific model (your choice of comparison) or in the context of talking about flat earth ideas on a flat earth website.  It's literally just an approximation.


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JackBlack

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #421 on: December 12, 2022, 12:19:47 PM »
How does it feel to be a member of the deluded?
I don't know, as I'm not a member. Why don't you tell us all?

Or better yet, stop with the pathetic deflections and BS and give us the set of requirements?

To say NASA used a FE model is ridiculous
No, it is the truth.
The reason why they used it is entirely irrelavent.
What is important is that they have used something that you claim can't exist.

Once more you launch off into deflection after deflection.
That would be you, using whatever dishonest BS you can to avoid admitting to what your cult deems to be heresy.


If you want to know the requirements for a scientific  model ask you pal bumrash as he posted one.
I know the requirements for them, and know that it doesn't exclude a the possibility of a FE model.

You are the one claiming a FE model is an impossibility, so you provide the requirements to demonstrate that, and be consistent with them and allow them to be applied to the models of Bohr et al.
Because so far every set of requirements you have provided has resulted in the Bohr fictional fantasy of the atom.

Which leads us to your biggest fail of all your failure to explain how a simple scale model of the flat earth could be produced.
I see you are taking after Smoke Machine now.
I thought you wanted a scientific model? Why does that mean it has to be a scale model?

The model would of course have to show all the relative positions of the continents.
So you are also going down the path of we have only had a RE model for a few hundred years maximum?
Or do you also want to invoke the same BS dishonest double standard?

The question now is what evasion tactics will you now use to avoid answering that impossible to answer question?
The one continually using evasion tactics here is you.
You still refuse to provide a set of requirements and allow them to be applied to the work of your idols.
This is because you know that any set of requirements you provide either wont exclude the possibility of a FE model, or would also exclude countless models you accept as models. And either option would be heresy to your pathetic cult.

Now again, what are the requirements?

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JackBlack

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #422 on: December 12, 2022, 01:01:54 PM »
Really?  Did Bohr say other scientists were liars and frauds?  Did he invent vast unfounded conspiracy theories?  Did he arbitrarily dismiss contradictory evidence and other fields of science as fake?
Did I say he did? No. I said his model was made by ignoring data which demonstrated it didn't work.

What this demonstrates is that models can exist which do not match all the data.

These are the things I objected to, because as I said, they have no place in science.  It goes back to Rowbotham's snake oil nonsense (who incidentally rejected the scientific method), and only got worse in the recent resurgence.
And if you approach this from the start, rather than the hindsight of everything, this started out as someone seeing something they didn't think makes sense on a RE, and then setting up a test and getting results inconsistent with a round Earth.
There is nothing in science which dictates that you must fully accept all data from all sources, as if it is free from error.
So that part would be consistent with science, and allow someone to try to make a FE model.
The problem comes after that where he just rejects any explanation of how it works on the RE.

Regardless, simplifying the ground to be flat in a flight model because curvature is negligible over short distances is hardly a "flat earth" model.  Certainly not in the same way that Bohr's atom is a scientific model (your choice of comparison) or in the context of talking about flat earth ideas on a flat earth website.  It's literally just an approximation.
In some regards, it is comparable in the sense of how the Bohr model is used today.
Even though it is outdated, and only works for hydrogen, it is still often taught in schools to describe various properties of atoms and things that results in (like emission spectra).
Likewise, a FE model is often used to describe how things work on Earth, such as how objects thrown upwards follow a parabola, and the example of NASA.
The distinction is that it is accepted as an approximation which is useful, instead of claiming that is how it actually is.
But it still demonstrates that there can be FE models.

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Smoke Machine

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #423 on: December 12, 2022, 01:12:45 PM »
I see the indoctrination here that flat earthers can have flat earth models, runs deep!
You mean the indoctrination of Timmy's anti-science cult has run deep?
And you are drinking the cool-aid and refusing to admit to things this cult deems to be heresy.

JackBlack says a flat earth model can be made purely from flat earth data, and he is adamant the flat earth model he makes, can include the entire Earth. I have explained why that is impossible. But he refuses to meet the challenge and make said model.
No, you haven't explained why it is impossible.
You have asserted it is impossible, and attempted to use an extremely dishonest double standard.

RE models have existed for thousands of years, well before they had mapped the entire globe.
So there is clearly no requirement to have mapped the entire Earth to produce a model of Earth, nor is there a requirement for the model to be of the entire Earth.
There are plenty of models which exist which get the geometry vastly incorrect, and the scale vastly incorrect, so clearly neither of those are requirements for a model.

Just like timmy, you are incapable of proving a coherent, consistent set of requirements for what a constitutes a model, which can be applied to things you accept are models without these failing, and then applied to a FE to show it is impossible.

Just like timmy, your argument is irrational and religious. You see FE models as heresy, so you attack.

Timeisup is a science advocator, so you saying he's supporting an anti-science cult, is insane. You even suggesting that people with common sense are part of a cult, tells me you are too lazy to look up the definition of a "cult".

Just like you're equally too lazy to look up the definition of a physical model on Wikipedia and see for yourself the requirements for a physical model. Similar geography and scaled version of original.

I haven't asserted a flat earth model from flat earth data alone is impossible, I've fully explained why, in a simple language that even a small child could comprehend! But no, not you. Happy to tell everybody how flat earth models can be created from flat earth data alone, but has no flat earth model made that way to show anybody. Just mental. Hopeless.

Then you put your foot in it again and stated there are plenty of models which get the geography vastly incorrect and the scale vastly incorrect. Give one example. Just one, example, Jack!

My argument is flawlessly logical. There are no religious undertones. Mine is the argument of a model maker, which is probably why you have nowhere to go on this. I guess this is where your momma usually runs in to change your poopy diaper, when you get yourself in a jam, huh?

You need to have a good look at yourself, Jack. Not only have you been beaten by Timeisup who's proven you can't build a SCIENTIFIC flat earth model, but you've been beaten by me who's proven that with your flat earth data, you can't even build ANY flat earth model.

Otherwise show us a photo of where you're at with your flat earth model from flat earth data, then, Jack.

(I'll give you a few hours while I'm sleeping, before i post the most likely flat earth model you've come up with so far.)
For the overall shape of Earth to be flat, requires billions of people and billions of pieces of information about Earth to be wrong. Do the maths.

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Unconvinced

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #424 on: December 12, 2022, 01:46:35 PM »
Really?  Did Bohr say other scientists were liars and frauds?  Did he invent vast unfounded conspiracy theories?  Did he arbitrarily dismiss contradictory evidence and other fields of science as fake?
Did I say he did? No. I said his model was made by ignoring data which demonstrated it didn't work.

What this demonstrates is that models can exist which do not match all the data.

Yes you did.  When you said most of the reasons I gave earlier applied equally to other models such as Bohr’s atom:

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This is exactly what I mean by being dragged into your arguments with other people.  I gave my own reasons why I don’t consider flat earth “models” to be in any  [way] scientific (largely being not based on scientific reasoning or methodology).  My opinions are entirely separate from anything Timeisup or anyone else says.
And the issue is that most of those reasons apply equally to other models.
Again, the Bohr model was made at a time where there were already observations that demonstrated it didn't work.
These observations where ignored to construct the Bohr model of the atom, which one could argue should really be called the Bohr model of hydrogen, as it only works for hydrogen.

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These are the things I objected to, because as I said, they have no place in science.  It goes back to Rowbotham's snake oil nonsense (who incidentally rejected the scientific method), and only got worse in the recent resurgence.
And if you approach this from the start, rather than the hindsight of everything, this started out as someone seeing something they didn't think makes sense on a RE, and then setting up a test and getting results inconsistent with a round Earth.
There is nothing in science which dictates that you must fully accept all data from all sources, as if it is free from error.
So that part would be consistent with science, and allow someone to try to make a FE model.
The problem comes after that where he just rejects any explanation of how it works on the RE.

And so he wrote a book of nonsense to explain his “model”.  I particularly like the bit where he acknowledges that people south of the equator see stars rotating around the south celestial pole and then just says that none of their observations can be trusted.  His magic perspective is pretty funny too.

Its completely different from any inconsistencies in Bohr’s model.

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Regardless, simplifying the ground to be flat in a flight model because curvature is negligible over short distances is hardly a "flat earth" model.  Certainly not in the same way that Bohr's atom is a scientific model (your choice of comparison) or in the context of talking about flat earth ideas on a flat earth website.  It's literally just an approximation.
In some regards, it is comparable in the sense of how the Bohr model is used today.
Even though it is outdated, and only works for hydrogen, it is still often taught in schools to describe various properties of atoms and things that results in (like emission spectra).
Likewise, a FE model is often used to describe how things work on Earth, such as how objects thrown upwards follow a parabola, and the example of NASA.
The distinction is that it is accepted as an approximation which is useful, instead of claiming that is how it actually is.
But it still demonstrates that there can be FE models.

The difference between an approximation and an attempt to explain it is everything.

You can model whatever the hell you like.  You can model the moon as cream cheese and go through immense detail in calculating what landing on a cream cheese moon might be like, but I wouldn’t call that a scientific model of the moon.

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Stash

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #425 on: December 12, 2022, 02:05:11 PM »
You can model whatever the hell you like.  You can model the moon as cream cheese and go through immense detail in calculating what landing on a cream cheese moon might be like, but I wouldn’t call that a scientific model of the moon.

Why not exactly? Lots of ludicrous hypotheses have been formed into "scientific" models over the centuries. Ptolemy used all kinds of observations, data, essentially the scientific method, and came up with his model of the Universe, a geocentric one based upon epicycles and stuff. We know that it was ludicrous, but it was still considered a "scientific" model.

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boydster

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #426 on: December 12, 2022, 02:11:21 PM »
As long as you know what it is you are trying to explain with a particular model, so you can then test to see if it provides meaningful results, I don't really see what the problem is.

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JackBlack

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #427 on: December 12, 2022, 02:14:47 PM »
Timeisup is a science advocator
No, he is an anti-science cultist, spitting in the face of science, and trying to turn into a religion.
He doesn't want you to follow the scientific method or think, he wants you to think you are a complete imbecile incapable of figuring anything at all out for yourself, and to instead just accept whatever his idols say.

He religiously attacks anything perceived to be against his cult, regardless of how truthful such a statement is.

So no, he certainly is supporting an anti-science cult.
Pretending it is advocating science or is science doesn't change that fact.

As for the definition, there are a variety of definitions for cult.
One simple one is "a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object."
The particular figure or object is the body of scientific knowledge that he agrees with, and those who produced it.
He is certainly devoted to it, and treats it with religious veneration.

Including using all the same dishonest tactics that religious people use.

So no, me accurately describing his cult is not me being lazy.

He is not using common sense, he is outright defying it.

Common sense dictates that you can have a model or hypothesis for almost anything. It doesn't need to be real. It doesn't need to be accurate.

For this specific topic, common sense would dictate that you can have a FE hypothesis and produce a FE model, and then test these, and find these insufficient to describe the world.

But he sees the mere possibility of such a thing as heresy against his cult, so he can't even bring himself to admit that.

Just like you're equally too lazy to look up the definition of a physical model on Wikipedia
You mean like I did and used it to demonstrate that your claims regarding are BS, and only apply to a subset of models?

I haven't asserted a flat earth model from flat earth data alone is impossible, I've fully explained why
In a manner that if applied honestly and consistently, would exclude loads of things which are accepted as models from being models, including the very things you provided as models, and which would preclude the possibility of a RE model existing until quite recently.
The atomic models you provided are not to scale and don't have similar geometry.

So you are applying a dishonest double standard, where you apply one standard for FE models to try and exclude them while entirely rejecting that standard for plenty of other models which you are happy to accept.
That demonstrates that you haven't fully explained, and instead you are just arbitrarily deciding their can't be FE models, without any honest, rational justification.

Then you put your foot in it again and stated there are plenty of models which get the geography vastly incorrect and the scale vastly incorrect. Give one example. Just one, example, Jack!
Firstly, it is geometry, not geography. Secondly, I already did. Remember the models of the atom you provided before?
Vastly incorrect geometry and scale.

My argument is flawlessly logical.
Your argument is entirely illogical based upon an extremely dishonest double standard.
In reality, instead of a logical argument, you just hate the possibility of a FE model, so you use whatever dishonest BS you can to pretend their can't be FE models, while then entirely ignoring that when it comes to other models.
This application of a double standard is quite common in religions, with plenty of arguments, like the argument from causality, relying upon a double standard.

You need to have a good look at yourself, Jack. Not only have you been beaten by Timeisup who's proven you can't build a SCIENTIFIC flat earth model, but you've been beaten by me who's proven that with your flat earth data, you can't even build ANY flat earth model.
I have had a good look at myself, and I am yet beaten by either of you.
You throwing a tantrum and proclaiming that you have beaten me doesn't make it true.

The fact you still need to use this dishonest double standard and ignore what has already been provided to you and dishonestly ask for it to be provided again demonstrates this quite clearly.

If you had beaten me, you would have been able to provide a coherent, consistent set of requirements for what is required for a model, and then be able to consistently apply that to things you accept to be models, and have them all pass.

Otherwise show us a photo of where you're at with your flat earth model from flat earth data, then, Jack.
And this is another common tactic used by the religious.
Because you can't substantiate your claim, you deflect and demand others prove the opposite claim true.

before i post the most likely flat earth model
And this just further demonstrates how you have entirely failed and your position is incredibly dishonest.
If there were no FE models, how could you post one?

How about you try providing a coherent, consistent set of requirements something must meet in order to be deemed a model? That we can then apply to things you accept are models and see if they meet those requirements?

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JackBlack

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #428 on: December 12, 2022, 02:20:20 PM »
Yes you did.  When you said most of the reasons I gave earlier applied equally to other models such as Bohr’s atom
And what reasons had you provided?
Nope.  I’m saying there are loads of other observations and experiments that are entirely inconsistent with the earth being flat.

These are ignored, dismissed as lies or given explanations that themselves massively contract with very well understood science geometry, etc.  None of which is great basis for a scientific model, and certainly not going by that definition.
And there were loads of other observations and experiments that are entirely inconsistent with the Bohr model of the atom.
These were ignored.

And so he wrote a book of nonsense to explain his “model”.
Notice how I said if you take it from the start?
But sure, ignore that and jump to the end to pretend that is how it always must be, and that no one could ever just honestly see something that doesn't appear to work and investigate and follow the scientific method to collect data which again appears inconsistent with the RE model and use that as a basis for a FE model, only to continue working on it and find out it doesn't work either and find alternative explanations for how it works on a RE.

The difference between an approximation and an attempt to explain it is everything.
Not if you are merely asking if there can be a model.
What the model is used for and how it is used in no way determines if it is a model or not nor if it is a scientific model.

You can model whatever the hell you like.  You can model the moon as cream cheese and go through immense detail in calculating what landing on a cream cheese moon might be like, but I wouldn’t call that a scientific model of the moon.
And can you provide the requirements for what should make it a scientific model vs a non-scientific model?

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Unconvinced

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #429 on: December 12, 2022, 03:35:56 PM »
Yes you did.  When you said most of the reasons I gave earlier applied equally to other models such as Bohr’s atom
And what reasons had you provided?
Nope.  I’m saying there are loads of other observations and experiments that are entirely inconsistent with the earth being flat.

These are ignored, dismissed as lies or given explanations that themselves massively contract with very well understood science geometry, etc.  None of which is great basis for a scientific model, and certainly not going by that definition.
And there were loads of other observations and experiments that are entirely inconsistent with the Bohr model of the atom.
These were ignored.

You keep saying Bohr’s model only works for hydrogen and he  ignored observations of heavier  elements.  Why then did he go back and refine his model to try to get them to fit (with limited success)?

In 1921, following the work of chemists and others involved in work on the periodic table, Bohr extended the model of hydrogen to give an approximate model for heavier atoms. This gave a physical picture that reproduced many known atomic properties for the first time although these properties were proposed contemporarily with the identical work of chemist Charles Rugeley Bury

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohr_model

That doesn’t look like ignoring it to me.

He certainly didn’t call inconvenient observations fake as flat earthers do with images from space.  He didn’t dismiss all the work others had done on electromagnetism as flat earthers do with gravity. 

He appeared to have an honest stab at getting his model to fit with science as understood at the time.


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And so he wrote a book of nonsense to explain his “model”.
Notice how I said if you take it from the start?
But sure, ignore that and jump to the end to pretend that is how it always must be, and that no one could ever just honestly see something that doesn't appear to work and investigate and follow the scientific method to collect data which again appears inconsistent with the RE model and use that as a basis for a FE model, only to continue working on it and find out it doesn't work either and find alternative explanations for how it works on a RE.

LOL.

Rowbotham didn’t follow the scientific method.  He explicitly rejected the scientific method.

His observations had known causes, which others tried to explain to him and even adjusted for in follow up experiments, which he arbitrarily dismissed.  He then wrote about a hundred pages of bollocks trying to shoehorn reality to fit with his ideas. 

Unlike Bohr’s model, none of the things he wrote about were unknown to science at the time. 

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And can you provide the requirements for what should make it a scientific model vs a non-scientific model?

Didn’t everyone basically agree to the definition a couple of pages back?

A scientific model is a physical and/or mathematical and/or conceptual representation of a system of ideas, events or processes. Scientists seek to identify and understand patterns in our world by drawing on their scientific knowledge to offer explanations that enable the patterns to be predicted. The models scientists create need to be consistent with our observations, inferences and current explanations. However, scientific models are not created to be factual statements about the world.
https://www.education.vic.gov.au/school/teachers/teachingresources/discipline/science/continuum/Pages/scimodels.aspx#:~:text=A%20scientific%20model%20is%20a,the%20patterns%20to%20be%20predicted.

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boydster

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #430 on: December 12, 2022, 04:07:06 PM »
Deflecting to Rowbotham isn't exactly useful or relevant. No one else here is using him as an example. It's whataboutism.

Regarding Bohr, you're owning the fact that he knew his model wasn't accurate when you say he went back to refine his model. This isn't moving the needle. This is accepting that a model that has known inaccuracies can still be useful.

You keep trying to compare Bohr to the FE movement to show... something about how there can't be a FE model, and I don't really know why because that's not what is being discussed. Can a model exist that doesn't accurately represent reality as we know it to the best of our knowledge, and can that model be useful in some way - that's the thing at the heart of this.

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Unconvinced

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #431 on: December 12, 2022, 04:26:28 PM »
Deflecting to Rowbotham isn't exactly useful or relevant. No one else here is using him as an example. It's whataboutism.

Rowbotham’s flat earth “model” is the only one I’m aware of described in any detail.

Everything since appears to be a bunch of vague ideas.  What if inflate plane?  What if universal acceleration?  What if dome?  What if denpressure?  What if bendy light?  Nothing ever defined sufficiently to make testable predictions, nothing falsifiable because the goal posts keep changing and therefore not even models IMO. 

As you fully aware, when newcomers come here to say “if flat earth was real, then x should happen” and you usually reply by questioning why they think flat earth models are what they say and not something else entirely (they are usually talking about Rowbotham’s).

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Regarding Bohr, you're owning the fact that he knew his model wasn't accurate when you say he went back to refine his model. This isn't moving the needle. This is accepting that a model that has known inaccuracies can still be useful.

You keep trying to compare Bohr to the FE movement to show... something about how there can't be a FE model, and I don't really know why because that's not what is being discussed. Can a model exist that doesn't accurately represent reality as we know it to the best of our knowledge, and can that model be useful in some way - that's the thing at the heart of this.

It’s Jack that keeps comparing objections to flat earth “models” with Bohr’s atom. 

« Last Edit: December 12, 2022, 04:28:56 PM by Unconvinced »

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boydster

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #432 on: December 12, 2022, 04:36:14 PM »
Deflecting to Rowbotham isn't exactly useful or relevant. No one else here is using him as an example. It's whataboutism.

Rowbotham’s flat earth “model” is the only one I’m aware of described in any detail.
That doesn't matter. Like, at all. You aren't taking the stance in anything you've presented that Rowbotham's model isn't a real model. You've taken the stance that THERE CAN BE NO FE MODEL AT ALL.

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It’s Jack that keeps comparing objections to flat earth “models” with Bohr’s atom.
No, he's keeps comparing the way one person has insisted a model needs to be presented in order to be considered valid against Bohr's model of an atom.

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Unconvinced

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #433 on: December 12, 2022, 04:45:04 PM »
Deflecting to Rowbotham isn't exactly useful or relevant. No one else here is using him as an example. It's whataboutism.

Rowbotham’s flat earth “model” is the only one I’m aware of described in any detail.
That doesn't matter. Like, at all. You aren't taking the stance in anything you've presented that Rowbotham's model isn't a real model. You've taken the stance that THERE CAN BE NO FE MODEL AT ALL.

No, I’m taking the stance that flat earth models are not scientific models, as they are not based on scientific reasoning, knowledge or methodology.  They are based on conspiracy theories, allegations of fraud and dismissal of vast fields of science.

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It’s Jack that keeps comparing objections to flat earth “models” with Bohr’s atom.
No, he's keeps comparing the way one person has insisted a model needs to be presented in order to be considered valid against Bohr's model of an atom.

Two people, including me.  Saying that my objections to flat earth models apply equally to Bohr’s.

Do you see the problem now?

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NotSoSkeptical

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #434 on: December 12, 2022, 05:24:01 PM »
Deflecting to Rowbotham isn't exactly useful or relevant. No one else here is using him as an example. It's whataboutism.

Rowbotham’s flat earth “model” is the only one I’m aware of described in any detail.
That doesn't matter. Like, at all. You aren't taking the stance in anything you've presented that Rowbotham's model isn't a real model. You've taken the stance that THERE CAN BE NO FE MODEL AT ALL.

No, I’m taking the stance that flat earth models are not scientific models, as they are not based on scientific reasoning, knowledge or methodology.  They are based on conspiracy theories, allegations of fraud and dismissal of vast fields of science.

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It’s Jack that keeps comparing objections to flat earth “models” with Bohr’s atom.
No, he's keeps comparing the way one person has insisted a model needs to be presented in order to be considered valid against Bohr's model of an atom.

Two people, including me.  Saying that my objections to flat earth models apply equally to Bohr’s.

Do you see the problem now?

FE Models are being pushed in modern times because of conspiracy theories, allegations of fraud, and dismissal of conflicting evidence.  That doesn't mean that the basis of those models came into existence solely as a result.  The FE Model isn't something new.  Yes there are newer FE models out there, but the questioning of mainstream theories/models, is science.  If you accept science without question, that's not science, that's religion.  It doesn't matter that the key part of their model is wrong.  By questioning science and refusing to just accept RE, they are doing in a very general way exactly what science is about.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2022, 05:34:15 PM by NotSoSkeptical »
If "deserving" time was a factor for responding on these forums, then no one would be here posting.

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Smoke Machine

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #435 on: December 12, 2022, 05:31:46 PM »
Jock, whether I'm concentrating on physical models or conceptual models, either way, you are screwed with this ridiculous argument of yours.
Moron, if I was screwed, don't you think you would have been able to providing a compelling argument and actually defend it rather than deflecting with pathetic demands and dishonest double standards?

But, sticking just to a physical model, by definition of physical models, there must be a similarity in geometry to the original.
So you are saying a physical model of the atom must have electrons with a similar geometry to the original, that is electrons being described by probability distribution functions, rather than as small balls in an orbit around the nucleus?

As for looking up the definition, how about these:
"A physical model is a simplified material representation, usually on a reduced scale, of an object or phenomenon that needs to investigated."
"A physical model represents a physical construct whose characteristics resemble the physical characteristics of the modeled system."
"A physical model is a framework of ideas and concepts from which we interpret our observations and experimental results."
(although, to be fair, that last one was a model of physics, rather than a model which is represented physically)
No requirement for the geometry to be a perfect match.

Or how about this little blurb from wikipedia:
Quote
A physical model (most commonly referred to simply as a model but in this context distinguished from a conceptual model) is a smaller or larger physical copy of an object. The object being modelled may be small (for example, an atom) or large (for example, the Solar System). In some sense, a physical model "is always the reification of some conceptual model; the conceptual model is conceived ahead as the blueprint of the physical one", which is then constructed as conceived.[3]

The geometry of the model and the object it represents are often similar in the sense that one is a rescaling of the other; in such cases, the scale is an important characteristic. However, in many cases the similarity is only approximate or even intentionally distorted. Sometimes the distortion is systematic (e.g., a fixed scale horizontally and a larger fixed scale vertically when modelling topography of a large area, as opposed to a model of a smaller mountain region, which may well use the same scale horizontally and vertically, showing the true slopes).
Note that it doesn't require significant similarity, and even allows intentional distortion.

Why do you use the solar system as a comparison and say you can't make a model of it?
See, this is another great example of why I know I'm not screwed.
If I was, you wouldn't need to lie like that.
Just like Timmy, you are setting up a strawman to attack.

I said that there are plenty of examples of not-to-scale models of the solar system which demonstrate quite well that scale is not a requirement.

So we can ditch this idea of it needing to be a scale model.

To make a physical model of the flat entire earth
Again, why does it need to be a model of the ENTIRE earth? Why can't it be a model of part of Earth?

This is the real reason you refuse my challenge to make a flat earth model of the entire Earth, isn't it, Jack? Admit it.
No, it is because it is a deflection from your inability to defend your claim.
Like I said to Timmy, you are like a theist asserting a god exists and demanding you prove it doesn't. In this case as an example by demanding the atheist sets up an experiment where complex life is formed without any intelligent input.
The atheist is under no obligation to meet this ridiculous demand. Not doing so does not mean a god exists.

Otherwise, what are you proposing, JackBlack?
That your claim is not substantiated.
That FE models can exist.
That Earth not being flat does not preclude the possibility of a FE model.

You're embarrassing yourself. Your face is literally covered in egg right now.
Why? You are the one needing to deflect and set up strawmen.

Lol, I knew there was a post from you to me that I missed responding to. You didn't disappoint, scrambling feebly around with your failure to address all of my points and cherry picking.

Yes, you successfully provided three excellent definitions for physical models, and then fail miserably to notice how any flat earth model can never meet these definitions. Astounding!

Why should a model of the flat earth be of the entire Earth, you ask? Well, that's what we've been talking about, silly boy! The entire Earth!

What, you want to make a flat earth model of Seattle and call it a flat Earth model? Or maybe just North America from your favourite map of North America? We have never been talking about a part of Earth or a single city or continent in this discussion. In fact, we have always been talking about the entire Earth in any flat earth discussion anywhere on this website. That's a lot of entire flat earth discussions, Jack! 

It is the entire Earth represented in any flat earth model utilising distortions from flat maps. It is the entire Earth represented in any flat earth logo. That's where the goal posts are - the entire Earth.

Even your flat earther buddy Danang knows this, which is why his fantasy phew flat earth model, is again of the entire Earth. You gotta love that peninsula Danang has for Russia!

Jack, you are the one who said a flat earth model can be built utilising only all that wonderful flat earth data you're hiding. Well, it has to be of the entire Earth, Jack. It's a bit late in the day to try and shift the goal posts now, to a tiny portion of the earth, just so you can win this argument. That's called cheating!

But when it comes to the crunch, you fall back on your typical debating strategy of accusing your opponent of deflecting, or projecting, or being dishonest with double standards, or even building strawmen.

Me, I'll just call you out on the obvious! Take your cherry picking, for example. You totally ignored addressing at least seventy percent of that post of mine you were quoting. You do so much cherry picking, one would think you do it for a living and have stained hands!

 A flat earth model of the entire Earth utilising only flat earth data, is impossible and you know it, and you continue to prove me right by continually refusing to try and build one. Now i have to take a photo of what the great JackBlack would be calling a flat earth model built only from his top secret flat earth data.

How's that egg on your face, going? I'm sure it will make for some terrific egg nog for you by Christmas!  ;D
« Last Edit: December 12, 2022, 06:02:37 PM by Smoke Machine »
For the overall shape of Earth to be flat, requires billions of people and billions of pieces of information about Earth to be wrong. Do the maths.

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Mikey T.

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #436 on: December 12, 2022, 07:19:55 PM »
So now the goalposts are moved further.  All data must only be from an FE person.  Not data that doesn't only support RE, but could also support FE conclusions.  No can't use that data, can't question science.  Sounds like a cult, pretending to be exactly the opposite of what they are. 
I will stick to sanity this round.  You 3 can go play jerk off semantic games to stroke your ego.  Your wrong, but you won't/can't even fathom that.  It's amazing how far you will go just to avoid admitting a simple error, now you are advocating that science should never be questioned, that unless it someone says something about a model that you want them to, then it can't be even possible to even exist.  Cherrypicking cherrypicked data.  Cherrypick squared I guess.  Oh no if this model was made by a Nobel prize winner but they ignored much of the data that didn't fit with how they wanted to model something, right or wrong, for simplicity or for nefarious reasons, oh no that must not be questioned.  But if flat headed bozo decides to ignore data that doesn't fit with what they want to convey, oh no thats heresy. 
2 things can be true at once.  It can be scientifically gathered data AND it may not 100 percent rule out FE or RE.  Therefore, if your just deluded enough, you could use that scientific data while ignoring other data to build an inaccurate model.  And if you want a physical model of your model.  Who the fuck thinks that when a model is discussed in scientific situations, they mean a scale model?  Oh nevermind.
I feel like I stepped into the twilight zone.

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boydster

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #437 on: December 12, 2022, 07:55:34 PM »
You've taken the stance that THERE CAN BE NO FE MODEL AT ALL.
No
Great. If you accept there can possibly be an FE model, then a) Rowbotham remains an irrelevant distraction and b) you've already adopted a much stronger foundational position than you seemed to be advocating earlier when you said the opposite.

Quote
Two people, including me.  Saying that my objections to flat earth models apply equally to Bohr’s.
So... it's two people, instead of one? Ok? And you are, in the very same post where you had a glimpse of an honest take, right back to basically saying science precludes the ability to have a model that doesn't agree with reality unless it's not one of the sacred models that aren't subject to the same criteria. Have fun with that.

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JackBlack

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #438 on: December 12, 2022, 11:53:29 PM »
You keep saying Bohr’s model only works for hydrogen and he  ignored observations of heavier  elements.  Why then did he go back and refine his model to try to get them to fit (with limited success)?
If he wasn't ignoring them when making the model in the first place, it wouldn't have only worked for hydrogen in the first place.

Did you even bother looking at the dates?
At the start of the article we see the model was presented in 1913.
Yet it was only extended in 1921?

So I would call it ignoring it for the purposes of making the model.

Just like a hypothetical FEer could ignore plenty of data to start making a FE model, and later try to expand the model to account for that data.

As for RowBoat, again, at the start it could be said they were following the scientific method. Regardless, a hypothetical FE could.

Didn’t everyone basically agree to the definition a couple of pages back?
No, as people are yet to explain why that excludes the possibility of a FE model.

That is what led to this specific discussion.

A scientific model is a physical and/or mathematical and/or conceptual representation of a system of ideas, events or processes. Scientists seek to identify and understand patterns in our world by drawing on their scientific knowledge to offer explanations that enable the patterns to be predicted. The models scientists create need to be consistent with our observations, inferences and current explanations. However, scientific models are not created to be factual statements about the world.
https://www.education.vic.gov.au/school/teachers/teachingresources/discipline/science/continuum/Pages/scimodels.aspx#:~:text=A%20scientific%20model%20is%20a,the%20patterns%20to%20be%20predicted.
If taken as 100% needed, then the Bohr model fails to be consistent with our (then) current observations and explanations and is discarded as not a model.
Likewise, the idea that light can act as both a wave and a particle would also not fit with the then current explanations, nor would the idea of subatomic particles, so they would also be discarded.

This means in order to not exclude so many scientific models, that would need to be modified to only need to match a limited number of observations, inferences and current explanations rather than all observations, inferences and current explanations.
And with it only needing to match some, that allows the possibility of FE models.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2022, 12:06:07 AM by JackBlack »

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Unconvinced

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #439 on: December 12, 2022, 11:59:19 PM »
You've taken the stance that THERE CAN BE NO FE MODEL AT ALL.
No
Great. If you accept there can possibly be an FE model, then a) Rowbotham remains an irrelevant distraction and b) you've already adopted a much stronger foundational position than you seemed to be advocating earlier when you said the opposite.

Quote
Two people, including me.  Saying that my objections to flat earth models apply equally to Bohr’s.
So... it's two people, instead of one? Ok? And you are, in the very same post where you had a glimpse of an honest take, right back to basically saying science precludes the ability to have a model that doesn't agree with reality unless it's not one of the sacred models that aren't subject to the same criteria. Have fun with that.

Hilarious bit of quote mining there to remove the WHOLE FUCKING POINT of what I’m saying.  It was only a couple of sentences long.

Good work, Mr Moderator.  Don’t think I need any lessons on honest debate from you, thanks.

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JackBlack

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #440 on: December 13, 2022, 12:06:33 AM »
You didn't disappoint, scrambling feebly around with your failure to address all of my points and cherry picking.
You mean adequately responding to the points raised, including dismissing your pathetic deflections?

Yes, you successfully provided three excellent definitions for physical models, and then fail miserably to notice how any flat earth model can never meet these definitions. Astounding!
Again, how?
What magic causes any FE model to necessarily fail to meet these definitions?

There is no requirement in those definitions that it MUST be to scale. There is no requirement for it to be 100% accurate. There is no requirement for it to be the entire thing.

Why should a model of the flat earth be of the entire Earth, you ask? Well, that's what we've been talking about, silly boy! The entire Earth!
No moron, that is your pathetic attempt to deflect due to your inability to defend your delusional BS.
If you want to claim there cannot be a FE model of the entire Earth, then first admit that there can be FE models, and then we can move on to that separate claim of yours.

And again, if you demand it to be a model of the entire Earth, that then raises the question of for how long have we been able to make a RE model of the entire Earth?

In fact, we have always been talking about the entire Earth in any flat earth discussion anywhere on this website. That's a lot of entire flat earth discussions, Jack!
No, we haven't.
There have been plenty of discussion which don't involve the entire Earth. I would say the vast majority only focus on a relatively small portion of Earth.

It's a bit late in the day to try and shift the goal posts now, to a tiny portion of the earth, just so you can win this argument. That's called cheating!
No, what would be cheating is first trying to claim that there can't be a FE model, and then trying to shift it to there can't be a FE model of the entire Earth, to scale, which shows all continents; but all these requirements are not required for anything you accept as a model.

But when it comes to the crunch, you fall back on your typical debating strategy of accusing your opponent of deflecting, or projecting, or being dishonest with double standards, or even building strawmen.
You mean when opponents like you decide to try and deflect from the issues, set up strawmen, use dishonest double standards or try and setup strawmen to attack I call them out on it.

It isn't my fault your entirely incapable of defending Timmy's delusional claim.

You totally ignored addressing at least seventy percent of that post of mine you were quoting.
Which parts?
Are you sure I didn't address it.

For example, consider this paragraph of yours:
Quote
Why do you use the solar system as a comparison and say you can't make a model of it? I have a very accurate moon and earth to scale model, on my desk and a larger one hanging across my living room.  I've recreated the solar system as a scale model, using a marble to represent the sun, and the planets represented as dots, and not going into scale for each of the planets. For the solar system, what's important in recreating, is the scale of distances between bodies. Hell yeah, I've even thrown in the position of the asteroid belt. Happy?
This starts with the entirely dishonest claim where you are claiming I said you can't make a model of the solar system.
All I need to do to address that dishonest BS of yours is point out that I never said that. And that only requires the very first part of that paragraph. All the rest becomes entirely irrelevant as it is based upon that lie of yours.

Likewise, when you go off on a rant about making a model of the entire Earth, I only need to address that first part, that it doesn't need to be of the entire Earth, for the rest of that rant to be entirely irrelevant.

I don't need to address every word of your pathetic deflections to address your entire post.

How's that egg on your face, going? I'm sure it will make for some terrific egg nog for you by Christmas!  ;D
Still not there, but given how delusional you appear to be, you probably think it is there.
Maybe you can try coming back to reality some time and see that it is all over your face?

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boydster

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #441 on: December 13, 2022, 03:11:16 AM »
You've taken the stance that THERE CAN BE NO FE MODEL AT ALL.
No
Great. If you accept there can possibly be an FE model, then a) Rowbotham remains an irrelevant distraction and b) you've already adopted a much stronger foundational position than you seemed to be advocating earlier when you said the opposite.

Quote
Two people, including me.  Saying that my objections to flat earth models apply equally to Bohr’s.
So... it's two people, instead of one? Ok? And you are, in the very same post where you had a glimpse of an honest take, right back to basically saying science precludes the ability to have a model that doesn't agree with reality unless it's not one of the sacred models that aren't subject to the same criteria. Have fun with that.

Hilarious bit of quote mining there to remove the WHOLE FUCKING POINT of what I’m saying.  It was only a couple of sentences long.

Good work, Mr Moderator.  Don’t think I need any lessons on honest debate from you, thanks.
One of us is certainly not being honest here, but it's not me. I cut out the parts where you completely contradicted yourself.

You did take the stance that there can be no FE model. Rowbotham doesn't matter. No single FE model matters. All that matters is whether ANY FE model at all is precluded from existing or not.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2022, 03:14:20 AM by boydster »

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Unconvinced

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #442 on: December 13, 2022, 04:31:01 AM »
You keep saying Bohr’s model only works for hydrogen and he  ignored observations of heavier  elements.  Why then did he go back and refine his model to try to get them to fit (with limited success)?
If he wasn't ignoring them when making the model in the first place, it wouldn't have only worked for hydrogen in the first place.

Did you even bother looking at the dates?
At the start of the article we see the model was presented in 1913.
Yet it was only extended in 1921?

So I would call it ignoring it for the purposes of making the model.

Could that possibly be because his 1913 model was specifically a model of a hydrogen atom?

Would you say that a flat earth model must also model other planets as flat?  Or would you consider beyond the scope of the proposed model?

I’m still not seeing any connection to my main objection to flat earth “models”- allegation of lies, dismissing evidence as fake, inventing pseudo science alternatives to well understood mechanisms, etc.  All flat earth models inevitably descend into unscientific bollocks the moment they try to explain any number of simple observations.

Quote
Just like a hypothetical FEer could ignore plenty of data to start making a FE model, and later try to expand the model to account for that data.

As for RowBoat, again, at the start it could be said they were following the scientific method. Regardless, a hypothetical FE could.

You mean he started performing experiments and drawing conclusions from his results?  But that’s not a model.  Once he started putting a model together to explain other simple observations, it all went completely off the rails.

Incidentally, when I joined here, I naively thought that some flat earthers would be trying to refine their ideas to deal with the gapping flaws.  That’s what I was interested in talking about.  But it never happened.  Not even once.

Quote
Didn’t everyone basically agree to the definition a couple of pages back?
No, as people are yet to explain why that excludes the possibility of a FE model.

That is what led to this specific discussion.

A scientific model is a physical and/or mathematical and/or conceptual representation of a system of ideas, events or processes. Scientists seek to identify and understand patterns in our world by drawing on their scientific knowledge to offer explanations that enable the patterns to be predicted. The models scientists create need to be consistent with our observations, inferences and current explanations.However, scientific models are not created to be factual statements about the world.
https://www.education.vic.gov.au/school/teachers/teachingresources/discipline/science/continuum/Pages/scimodels.aspx#:~:text=A%20scientific%20model%20is%20a,the%20patterns%20to%20be%20predicted.

If taken as 100% needed, then the Bohr model fails to be consistent with our (then) current observations and explanations and is discarded as not a model.
Likewise, the idea that light can act as both a wave and a particle would also not fit with the then current explanations, nor would the idea of subatomic particles, so they would also be discarded.

This means in order to not exclude so many scientific models, that would need to be modified to only need to match a limited number of observations, inferences and current explanations rather than all observations, inferences and current explanations.
And with it only needing to match some, that allows the possibility of FE models.

Why 100%. Why does everything need to be so absolute with you?

Science isn’t perfect and scientists aren’t perfect.  Like the scientific method, the above is not a set of hard and fast set of rules, but general principles.

You want to pretend there’s no difference between these models and a flat earth model, I don’t know what else to say.

Maybe explain exactly what you consider a flat earth model? 

« Last Edit: December 13, 2022, 04:33:36 AM by Unconvinced »

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Unconvinced

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #443 on: December 13, 2022, 07:14:47 AM »
You've taken the stance that THERE CAN BE NO FE MODEL AT ALL.
No
Great. If you accept there can possibly be an FE model, then a) Rowbotham remains an irrelevant distraction and b) you've already adopted a much stronger foundational position than you seemed to be advocating earlier when you said the opposite.

Quote
Two people, including me.  Saying that my objections to flat earth models apply equally to Bohr’s.
So... it's two people, instead of one? Ok? And you are, in the very same post where you had a glimpse of an honest take, right back to basically saying science precludes the ability to have a model that doesn't agree with reality unless it's not one of the sacred models that aren't subject to the same criteria. Have fun with that.

Hilarious bit of quote mining there to remove the WHOLE FUCKING POINT of what I’m saying.  It was only a couple of sentences long.

Good work, Mr Moderator.  Don’t think I need any lessons on honest debate from you, thanks.
One of us is certainly not being honest here, but it's not me. I cut out the parts where you completely contradicted yourself.

Haha.  Nice try, but no.

You cut out what’s been the main point of my argument from the beginning, reducing my answer to a single word and tried to show  that it contradicted what I said after.

Would you like to try a sensible debate of my argument?

Quote
You did take the stance that there can be no FE model. Rowbotham doesn't matter. No single FE model matters. All that matters is whether ANY FE model at all is precluded from existing or not.

No, I didn’t.  My stance has always been that there has never been a flat earth model that I would consider scientific.  I do not believe that such a model is possible, and as far as I can see no one is trying to make one.

It’s not about being precluded, it’s about the practical impossibility of creating a model of the Earth being flat that’s even roughly consistent with even a few of a vast number of very simple observations.

If people here think it’s possible, then let’s try it shall we, and see how far we get?

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boydster

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #444 on: December 13, 2022, 09:41:31 AM »
Quote
You did take the stance that there can be no FE model. Rowbotham doesn't matter. No single FE model matters. All that matters is whether ANY FE model at all is precluded from existing or not.

No, I didn’t.


A scientific model is a physical and/or mathematical and/or conceptual representation of a system of ideas, events or processes. Scientists seek to identify and understand patterns in our world by drawing on their scientific knowledge to offer explanations that enable the patterns to be predicted. The models scientists create need to be consistent with our observations, inferences and current explanations. However, scientific models are not created to be factual statements about the world.
https://www.education.vic.gov.au/school/teachers/teachingresources/discipline/science/continuum/Pages/scimodels.aspx#:~:text=A%20scientific%20model%20is%20a,the%20patterns%20to%20be%20predicted.

That's been explained to Timmy previously.  He ignores it because it goes against his belief system.

Have you actually read what he said?

Present to one just one FE notion that meets that criteria. None do so the joke is on you fool.

You misunderstand it because you are just too dense with tremendous overtones of gross stupidity.

No, show me where it precludes FET from being a model.

“Scientists seek to identify and understand patterns in our world by drawing on their scientific knowledge to offer explanations that enable the patterns to be predicted. The models scientists create need to be consistent with our observations, inferences and current explanations.”

All of that?

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Unconvinced

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #445 on: December 13, 2022, 11:19:18 AM »
Quote
You did take the stance that there can be no FE model. Rowbotham doesn't matter. No single FE model matters. All that matters is whether ANY FE model at all is precluded from existing or not.

No, I didn’t.


A scientific model is a physical and/or mathematical and/or conceptual representation of a system of ideas, events or processes. Scientists seek to identify and understand patterns in our world by drawing on their scientific knowledge to offer explanations that enable the patterns to be predicted. The models scientists create need to be consistent with our observations, inferences and current explanations. However, scientific models are not created to be factual statements about the world.
https://www.education.vic.gov.au/school/teachers/teachingresources/discipline/science/continuum/Pages/scimodels.aspx#:~:text=A%20scientific%20model%20is%20a,the%20patterns%20to%20be%20predicted.

That's been explained to Timmy previously.  He ignores it because it goes against his belief system.

Have you actually read what he said?

Present to one just one FE notion that meets that criteria. None do so the joke is on you fool.

You misunderstand it because you are just too dense with tremendous overtones of gross stupidity.

No, show me where it precludes FET from being a model.

“Scientists seek to identify and understand patterns in our world by drawing on their scientific knowledge to offer explanations that enable the patterns to be predicted. The models scientists create need to be consistent with our observations, inferences and current explanations.”

All of that?

Bravo.  OK, you’re right.

My initial somewhat flippant comment shouldn’t have accepted the idea of being “precluded”.

I should have instead said that every flat earth model just spectacularly fails to meet that definition.  I apologize for any confusion.  Happy?

So what do you think about making a flat earth model that doesn’t?  Up for it?


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boydster

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #446 on: December 13, 2022, 11:26:27 AM »
My initial somewhat flippant comment shouldn’t have accepted the idea of being “precluded”.
Well, given that's the entire context of the conversation right now, that's a major thing to retcon. I'd say it's progress.

Quote
I should have instead said that every flat earth model just spectacularly fails to meet that definition.  I apologize for any confusion.

Where specifically does it spectacularly fail according to the definition you had referenced in your flippant comment? (Edit to clarify: ..spectacularly fails in a way that doesn't exclude the Bohr atom example that has been at the center of the conversation, just to keep things on topic here)
A scientific model is a physical and/or mathematical and/or conceptual representation of a system of ideas, events or processes. Scientists seek to identify and understand patterns in our world by drawing on their scientific knowledge to offer explanations that enable the patterns to be predicted. The models scientists create need to be consistent with our observations, inferences and current explanations. However, scientific models are not created to be factual statements about the world.
https://www.education.vic.gov.au/school/teachers/teachingresources/discipline/science/continuum/Pages/scimodels.aspx#:~:text=A%20scientific%20model%20is%20a,the%20patterns%20to%20be%20predicted.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2022, 11:30:03 AM by boydster »

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Unconvinced

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #447 on: December 13, 2022, 11:45:00 AM »
My initial somewhat flippant comment shouldn’t have accepted the idea of being “precluded”.
Well, given that's the entire context of the conversation right now, that's a major thing to retcon. I'd say it's progress.

Quote
I should have instead said that every flat earth model just spectacularly fails to meet that definition.  I apologize for any confusion.

Where specifically does it spectacularly fail according to the definition you had referenced in your flippant comment? (Edit to clarify: ..spectacularly fails in a way that doesn't exclude the Bohr atom example that has been at the center of the conversation, just to keep things on topic here)
A scientific model is a physical and/or mathematical and/or conceptual representation of a system of ideas, events or processes. Scientists seek to identify and understand patterns in our world by drawing on their scientific knowledge to offer explanations that enable the patterns to be predicted. The models scientists create need to be consistent with our observations, inferences and current explanations. However, scientific models are not created to be factual statements about the world.
https://www.education.vic.gov.au/school/teachers/teachingresources/discipline/science/continuum/Pages/scimodels.aspx#:~:text=A%20scientific%20model%20is%20a,the%20patterns%20to%20be%20predicted.

Which one?  Apparently you don’t like me talking about Rowbotham’s.  Let me know what you consider the best example and I’ll tell you where it fails spectacularly to meet that definition.

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boydster

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #448 on: December 13, 2022, 11:59:28 AM »
My initial somewhat flippant comment shouldn’t have accepted the idea of being “precluded”.
Well, given that's the entire context of the conversation right now, that's a major thing to retcon. I'd say it's progress.

Quote
I should have instead said that every flat earth model just spectacularly fails to meet that definition.  I apologize for any confusion.

Where specifically does it spectacularly fail according to the definition you had referenced in your flippant comment? (Edit to clarify: ..spectacularly fails in a way that doesn't exclude the Bohr atom example that has been at the center of the conversation, just to keep things on topic here)
A scientific model is a physical and/or mathematical and/or conceptual representation of a system of ideas, events or processes. Scientists seek to identify and understand patterns in our world by drawing on their scientific knowledge to offer explanations that enable the patterns to be predicted. The models scientists create need to be consistent with our observations, inferences and current explanations. However, scientific models are not created to be factual statements about the world.
https://www.education.vic.gov.au/school/teachers/teachingresources/discipline/science/continuum/Pages/scimodels.aspx#:~:text=A%20scientific%20model%20is%20a,the%20patterns%20to%20be%20predicted.

Which one?  Apparently you don’t like me talking about Rowbotham’s.  Let me know what you consider the best example and I’ll tell you where it fails spectacularly to meet that definition.
Well you kind of waffled, it seemed like you conceded that there could potentially be a FE model, but then immediately afterward you said that every FE model fails spectacularly, so I took that to mean you still were suggesting that there cannot be an FE model because they all fail. I might have misread things.

If I'm mistaken, and you just mean the models you are currently aware of fail but there could exist models that don't, we're in agreement at that point, and should also be in agreement that Timmy's rampant posting about how "tHeRe CaN bE nO fLaT eArTh MoDeL BeCaUsE sCiEnCe!!" is patently wrong and just noise that he is spamming all over the forum.

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Unconvinced

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #449 on: December 13, 2022, 01:13:44 PM »
My initial somewhat flippant comment shouldn’t have accepted the idea of being “precluded”.
Well, given that's the entire context of the conversation right now, that's a major thing to retcon. I'd say it's progress.

Quote
I should have instead said that every flat earth model just spectacularly fails to meet that definition.  I apologize for any confusion.

Where specifically does it spectacularly fail according to the definition you had referenced in your flippant comment? (Edit to clarify: ..spectacularly fails in a way that doesn't exclude the Bohr atom example that has been at the center of the conversation, just to keep things on topic here)
A scientific model is a physical and/or mathematical and/or conceptual representation of a system of ideas, events or processes. Scientists seek to identify and understand patterns in our world by drawing on their scientific knowledge to offer explanations that enable the patterns to be predicted. The models scientists create need to be consistent with our observations, inferences and current explanations. However, scientific models are not created to be factual statements about the world.
https://www.education.vic.gov.au/school/teachers/teachingresources/discipline/science/continuum/Pages/scimodels.aspx#:~:text=A%20scientific%20model%20is%20a,the%20patterns%20to%20be%20predicted.

Which one?  Apparently you don’t like me talking about Rowbotham’s.  Let me know what you consider the best example and I’ll tell you where it fails spectacularly to meet that definition.
Well you kind of waffled, it seemed like you conceded that there could potentially be a FE model, but then immediately afterward you said that every FE model fails spectacularly, so I took that to mean you still were suggesting that there cannot be an FE model because they all fail. I might have misread things.

If I'm mistaken, and you just mean the models you are currently aware of fail but there could exist models that don't, we're in agreement at that point, and should also be in agreement that Timmy's rampant posting about how "tHeRe CaN bE nO fLaT eArTh MoDeL BeCaUsE sCiEnCe!!" is patently wrong and just noise that he is spamming all over the forum.

Waffled?  Maybe, but no more than you just did.  Why are we all waffling?

Have you considered that it might be because the whole argument is over the narrowest line of disagreement?

Everyone posting knows that flat earth is a hot mess of nonsense.  I personally don’t believe it’s possible to make a detailed flat earth model that isn’t a hot mess of nonsense.  I’ll stop just short of stating that as an indisputable fact though.

Do you need me to pick a side?