What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?

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What makes this Flat Earth Hypothesis more realistic that the Globe Earth Model?

I haven't found any reasons to believe this that were not just immediately disproven or if there is a person giving points towards a globe earth, the flat earth debater just changed the subject when he was given a response, not even mentioning the response at all. Sometimes they will respond, but once their point is disproven with superior evidence, they just change the subject.

So, what points make this model better than the globe model, the one with one unified system on how the Earth works? Can you defend your reasons as well?

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Timeisup

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2022, 08:44:48 AM »
But it’s not believable! Flat earth belief is based on a giant global conspiracy!

Ok the world can look flat….but that’s a about it!

Looks can be deceiving.
What a laugh!!!

Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2022, 09:24:02 AM »
But it’s not believable! Flat earth belief is based on a giant global conspiracy!

Ok the world can look flat….but that’s a about it!

Looks can be deceiving.

I know it is round, I want someone is actually believes in this false reality to use any inkling of logic whatsoever to disprove anything I have ever said. (In a way I can't just immediately disprove against them)

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gotham

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2022, 09:46:39 AM »
...but wait a minute. You "know" it's round because why?

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Timeisup

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2022, 04:12:45 PM »
...but wait a minute. You "know" it's round because why?

The real question is why do you believe in the giant global conspiracy? The one question every flat earther flees from answering.

So what’s your answer?
What a laugh!!!

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gotham

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2022, 05:54:59 PM »
Returning to the question presented by the OP, FET is more realistic than RET because the former has philosophy, common sense, and proof as evidence and the latter only has the limitations of science to back it up.

Limitations are mentioned because there is no proof in science and if you have had any science classes, you know that is stated on the first day of class.

Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2022, 08:55:41 PM »
Returning to the question presented by the OP, FET is more realistic than RET because the former has philosophy, common sense, and proof as evidence and the latter only has the limitations of science to back it up.

Limitations are mentioned because there is no proof in science and if you have had any science classes, you know that is stated on the first day of class.

The Round Earth Model does in fact have common sense and proof. Proof starts as early back as Eratosthenes about 2000 years ago, when he placed two different sticks in far away locations, and recorded the angle they each made with the sun at the same time. The angle came to be about 1/50th a full circle (about 7.2 degrees difference.) Common sense comes in when you think about the simplest shape a bunch of random materials could float into. Would it be a perfectly flat, perfectly round circle? No, I don't think so.

The Round Earth Model has "the limitations of science," when that is by far the most important point. The Flat Earth Model can't even explain some of the most common events in the world. Like sunsets or eclipses. Either of these break the flat earth model, or can be explained much, much better by the round earth model. The Flat Earth Model has absolutely no grounding in science at all. A lot of the points I have heard before are also nonsensical, like how water "can't bend," as if the person saying that has never seen raindrops, waterfalls, or people riding waves before.

The Flat Earth model doesn't even have a map. That is a simple thing to solve. Create a COMPLETE map. Having a map of something isn't all you need, you also need a SCALE to go along with it. Create that, create a scale on a map. If it doesn't then the map is unreliable, as the same lengths on the map may be different when compared to the real world. It means that the main map that describes the world in the flat earth model is not a correct map, meaning you have a wrong map, or a correct map of an incorrect model, which would still lead back to the map being incorrect.

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Timeisup

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2022, 11:50:38 PM »
Returning to the question presented by the OP, FET is more realistic than RET because the former has philosophy, common sense, and proof as evidence and the latter only has the limitations of science to back it up.

Limitations are mentioned because there is no proof in science and if you have had any science classes, you know that is stated on the first day of class.

Just like I said flat earth believers avoid answering that question like the plague. They much rather do what you have done.

Let’s remember flat earth belief is confined to individuals who belief in the conspiracy.

There is not one single nation, big or small that has taken up the flat earth belief. Why is that?

There is not one single academic institution on the planet that would agree with you. Why is that?

The only answer you can provide for either question is to invoke the conspiracy? Why is that?
And why do you and other flat earthers avoid addressing it?

A conspiracy that defies belief and that you own belief hangs on. Never mind addressing unimportant side issues deal with the main question. Remember no conspiracy no flat earth.
What a laugh!!!

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wise

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2022, 12:01:22 AM »
I looked at what NASA has given us. Usually it was something like this:



Then I looked at what flat earthers had to offer. Usually it was something like this:



The second group seemed more serious to me. I researched what they said. I've searched for years. I corresponded with flat earthers from youtube, facebook, twitter, instagram, online dictionaries, all over. And I was finally convinced. Ah yes, they were all sane people and not in the teenage mentality to manipulate the sun just because halloween came. gmta.
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JackBlack

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2022, 12:17:36 AM »
I looked at what NASA has given us. Usually it was something like this:

Then I looked at what flat earthers had to offer. Usually it was something like this:
Yes, NASA providing quite good images of the sun, without any BS layering over the top; while FEers provide dishonest and misleading garbage.
Where the FEers dishonestly change the elevation of the light source, and have the curvature as much greater than that for Earth, to pretend you can't get that observation on a RE.
Even after they are refuted, with their claims being demonstrated to be false, and a correction provided, they still provide this same dishonest garbage.


The second group looks far more deceitful, as if they are trying to manipulate whatever they can into pretending Earth is flat, instead of honestly conducting experiments to determine the shape of Earth.

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ecco

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2022, 09:47:50 AM »
...but wait a minute. You "know" it's round because why?
That was not addressed to me, but I'll respond. 
In the beginning, it's because what I was taught in school and by my elders.  I was also taught Santa Clause existed and, later, Santa Clause does not exist.

Beyond that, I never really gave it much thought, until I came upon people, mostly on line, who believed otherwise.  So, there is some controversy.  If there is controversy, then one must find evidence - pro and con.

For starters, one can use pictures of earth from ISS, from the moon, from satellites.  Then one must determine if the evidence is valid. 

Here we have two options; they are real or they are artificially manufactured.   If they are artificially manufactured, one would have to question WHY and WHO.  Who would gain from telling everyone the earth is a sphere when it's really a Frisbee. 

From comments on boards like this, there are no rational answers as to WHY and WHO.  From further research, the  WHY and WHO are a small community of people who make money selling books, maps, and tee shirts and make more money by holding and speaking at conferences.


Alternatively, if they are real, one can also ask  WHY and WHO.  The WHO supporting a spherical earth are tens of thousands of scientists, explorers, sailors, pilots, etc. over many hundreds of years who have no agenda other than recording their observations for the benefit of mankind.




Beyond just pictures, mankind has made a model for a spherical earth orbiting a distant sun that is in accord with observable nature.   

FE proponents do not have such a model.  There is no single model that addresses day time, night time, seasons, moon phases, eclipses, tides and the "movement" of the stars and planets across the sky.   FEs' cannot explain Mars's apparent retrograde.  FEers cannot even define basics like the distances to the sun and moon.


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gotham

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2022, 10:41:58 AM »
It is interesting to note that Earth shape debate has gone on extensively for more than 175 years and both sides have dug in and presented their best evidence. The back and forth conversation ebbs and flows as new evidence is brought forward.

FET has been defended boldly and successfully in open forum live settings and now that the internet has become the norm, these debates have continued to this day.

RET believers tend to think they have a lock on Earth shape finality which is, of course, questionable. They do have a possible claim to having more proponents, but a proper sampling would perhaps give results showing the true number of FET catching up in due course as the confirmed evidence is brought forth.

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Stash

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2022, 11:25:30 AM »
Interesting data from April, 2022 (2021):

Conspiracy vs. Science: A Survey of U.S. Public Beliefs



Looks like belief in Flat Earth stands around 10%. Which is basically the same number I've seen for years. So I would say traction has not been gained in quite some time. Though one could argue that more recent generations have embraced the notion just a smidge more than earlier demos.
Yes Stash.

I am clearly the product of castrated machine learning.

You are quite obviously, human.

Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2022, 11:50:02 AM »

FET has been defended boldly and successfully in open forum live settings and now that the internet has become the norm, these debates have continued to this day.


Really?  With only about 10 percent of the population believing?  As pointed out by Stash.

So.  Please give an example of one of the most “successfully in open forum live settings” proofs of flat earth delusion. 

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Alexei

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2022, 11:51:58 AM »

FET has been defended boldly and successfully in open forum live settings and now that the internet has become the norm, these debates have continued to this day.


Really?  With only about 10 percent of the population believing?  As pointed out by Stash.

So.  Please give an example of one of the most “successfully in open forum live settings” proofs of flat earth delusion.

10 percent of the population would be about 700-800 million people on the disk.
Therefore, there are plenty of flat earthers on the disk.
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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2022, 11:53:15 AM »

RET believers tend to think they have a lock on Earth shape finality which is, of course, questionable.

What navy in the world has better targeting solutions, able to bring ships on station faster with less fuel, and have a tactical advantage because they treat the world as flat? 

Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2022, 11:58:52 AM »

FET has been defended boldly and successfully in open forum live settings and now that the internet has become the norm, these debates have continued to this day.


Really?  With only about 10 percent of the population believing?  As pointed out by Stash.

So.  Please give an example of one of the most “successfully in open forum live settings” proofs of flat earth delusion.

10 percent of the population would be about 700-800 million people on the disk.
Therefore, there are plenty of flat earthers on the disk.

The world also used to believe in slavery. 

Belief isn’t proof of something being right…

Quote
People Once Believed That Women's Uteruses Would Fly Out On Speeding Trains

https://www.iflscience.com/people-once-believed-that-womens-uteruses-would-fly-out-on-speeding-trains-61343

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Alexei

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2022, 12:00:08 PM »

FET has been defended boldly and successfully in open forum live settings and now that the internet has become the norm, these debates have continued to this day.


Really?  With only about 10 percent of the population believing?  As pointed out by Stash.

So.  Please give an example of one of the most “successfully in open forum live settings” proofs of flat earth delusion.

10 percent of the population would be about 700-800 million people on the disk.
Therefore, there are plenty of flat earthers on the disk.

The world also used to believe in slavery. 

Belief isn’t proof of something being right…

Quote
People Once Believed That Women's Uteruses Would Fly Out On Speeding Trains

https://www.iflscience.com/people-once-believed-that-womens-uteruses-would-fly-out-on-speeding-trains-61343

That was because people will believe anything even without evidence! However, we do have evidence for a flat earth.
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Stash

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2022, 12:01:01 PM »

FET has been defended boldly and successfully in open forum live settings and now that the internet has become the norm, these debates have continued to this day.


Really?  With only about 10 percent of the population believing?  As pointed out by Stash.

So.  Please give an example of one of the most “successfully in open forum live settings” proofs of flat earth delusion.

10 percent of the population would be about 700-800 million people on the disk.
Therefore, there are plenty of flat earthers on the disk.

Yeah, that's a bunch of people. May have to remove some younger ones. But still, 2x size of America. The point is, the numbers really haven't changed much as Gotham implied. In otjher words, I'm not seeing a "catching up", as it it were. There was sort of a surge in FE interest back in like 2015-2017 realm. Probably something to do with basketball stars and other celebs trotting out FE. Seems to have died down quite a bit. Maybe not here, but on YT and just look at tfes.org, no one really posts much there anymore.
Yes Stash.

I am clearly the product of castrated machine learning.

You are quite obviously, human.

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Alexei

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2022, 12:05:56 PM »

FET has been defended boldly and successfully in open forum live settings and now that the internet has become the norm, these debates have continued to this day.


Really?  With only about 10 percent of the population believing?  As pointed out by Stash.

So.  Please give an example of one of the most “successfully in open forum live settings” proofs of flat earth delusion.

10 percent of the population would be about 700-800 million people on the disk.
Therefore, there are plenty of flat earthers on the disk.

Yeah, that's a bunch of people. May have to remove some younger ones. But still, 2x size of America. The point is, the numbers really haven't changed much as Gotham implied. In otjher words, I'm not seeing a "catching up", as it it were. There was sort of a surge in FE interest back in like 2015-2017 realm. Probably something to do with basketball stars and other celebs trotting out FE. Seems to have died down quite a bit. Maybe not here, but on YT and just look at tfes.org, no one really posts much there anymore.

If we add up all the people who believed in a flat earth, we would have over 1 billion flat earthers or maybe even (if we convert the population back then to todays population) more than 2 billion.
However, I say this because cities were small back then so even the most population dense city in 1700 would be like less than 500,000.
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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2022, 12:06:13 PM »

FET has been defended boldly and successfully in open forum live settings and now that the internet has become the norm, these debates have continued to this day.


Really?  With only about 10 percent of the population believing?  As pointed out by Stash.

So.  Please give an example of one of the most “successfully in open forum live settings” proofs of flat earth delusion.

10 percent of the population would be about 700-800 million people on the disk.
Therefore, there are plenty of flat earthers on the disk.

The world also used to believe in slavery. 

Belief isn’t proof of something being right…

Quote
People Once Believed That Women's Uteruses Would Fly Out On Speeding Trains

https://www.iflscience.com/people-once-believed-that-womens-uteruses-would-fly-out-on-speeding-trains-61343

That was because people will believe anything even without evidence! However, we do have evidence for a flat earth.


And that evidence would be what to cause the world’s navies to give up the tactical advantage of treating the earth for the sphere it is? 

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Alexei

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2022, 12:12:04 PM »
I'm sure if we convert the sphere to make it flat, the total area for the sphere would be more than the flat disk.
Therefore, less area= less money spent on fuel/energy.
Seems reasonable to me.
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Timeisup

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2022, 12:48:04 PM »
It is interesting to note that Earth shape debate has gone on extensively for more than 175 years and both sides have dug in and presented their best evidence. The back and forth conversation ebbs and flows as new evidence is brought forward.

FET has been defended boldly and successfully in open forum live settings and now that the internet has become the norm, these debates have continued to this day.

RET believers tend to think they have a lock on Earth shape finality which is, of course, questionable. They do have a possible claim to having more proponents, but a proper sampling would perhaps give results showing the true number of FET catching up in due course as the confirmed evidence is brought forth.

There is no debate about the shape of the earth. Possibly inside your head but not in the real world.

There is no evidence flat earth believers can present. You yourself have never presented a single shred, mainly because there is none.



What a laugh!!!

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Stash

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2022, 12:51:32 PM »
I'm sure if we convert the sphere to make it flat, the total area for the sphere would be more than the flat disk.
Therefore, less area= less money spent on fuel/energy.
Seems reasonable to me.

You'd have to convert it first.
Yes Stash.

I am clearly the product of castrated machine learning.

You are quite obviously, human.

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Alexei

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2022, 12:52:42 PM »
I'm sure if we convert the sphere to make it flat, the total area for the sphere would be more than the flat disk.
Therefore, less area= less money spent on fuel/energy.
Seems reasonable to me.

You'd have to convert it first.

Yeah, sorry about that bud.
I have to do my homework instead of spending an hour converting sphere and the flat disk.
Maybe one day when I have more time I will do it but not today.
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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2022, 12:59:26 PM »
I'm sure if we convert the sphere to make it flat, the total area for the sphere would be more than the flat disk.
Therefore, less area= less money spent on fuel/energy.
Seems reasonable to me.

Which is not representative of actual distances and relative positions, especially in the Southern Hemisphere.

Quote

2.3 Map Projections

https://rwu.pressbooks.pub/webboceanography/chapter/2-3-map-projections/


It is difficult to accurately represent a three-dimensional spherical object like the Earth on a flat, two-dimensional map or chart. Therefore, two-dimensional maps are distorted in representing the Earth’s true area, direction, distance, and shape. Only a globe is accurate in all of these variables, but globes are impractical to use in the field, and impossible to reproduce in a book. Because of these limitations, we use different map projections to represent the Earth, depending on the needs of the presenter. Below are some of the more common map projections used in oceanography.



If the earth was flat, there wouldn’t be need of different map projections.


Quote

MISCMercator Misconceptions: Clever Map Shows the True Size of Countries

https://www.visualcapitalist.com/mercator-map-true-size-of-countries/

Geographic Inflation
The vast majority of us aren’t using paper maps to chart our course across the ocean anymore, so critics of the Mercator projection argue that the continued use of this style of map gives users a warped sense of the true size of countries—particularly in the case of the African continent.

Mercator’s map inadvertently also pumps up the sizes of Europe and North America. Visually speaking, Canada and Russia appear to take up approximately 25% of the Earth’s surface, when in reality they occupy a mere 5%.



https://flatearth.ws/azimuthal-equidistant
« Last Edit: November 01, 2022, 01:50:01 PM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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JackBlack

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2022, 01:25:07 PM »
It is interesting to note that Earth shape debate has gone on extensively for more than 175 years and both sides have dug in and presented their best evidence. The back and forth conversation ebbs and flows as new evidence is brought forward.

FET has been defended boldly and successfully in open forum live settings and now that the internet has become the norm, these debates have continued to this day.

RET believers tend to think they have a lock on Earth shape finality which is, of course, questionable. They do have a possible claim to having more proponents, but a proper sampling would perhaps give results showing the true number of FET catching up in due course as the confirmed evidence is brought forth.
Not really.
The actual debate was settled thousands of years ago.
Recently there has been a movement of people objecting to the government and pretending Earth is flat.

The only way these modern FEers have been able to "defend" FE (it isn't a theory, it is yet to produce a coherent model which is actually capable of explaining reality), is by refuting specific arguments given by ill informed REers, or by resorting to such convoluted nonsense it effectively amounts to nature itself conspiring to make Earth appear round, and making a RE and a FE indistinguishable.
They have certainly never been able to demonstrate that Earth is flat rather than round.

Conversely REers have been able to demonstrate countless flaws in FE models and provide plenty of evidence to show Earth is round, which FEers can only try to escape by either ignoring it or pretending that you should get every observation expected for a RE on a FE.

That was because people will believe anything even without evidence! However, we do have evidence for a flat earth.
Like what?
I'm yet to find any evidence for a FE.
Is it actually evidence for a FE over a RE, or is it just an observation consistent with both, where you can't tell the difference and thus isn't really evidence for either? Or is it just a misrepresentation where it isn't evidence for a FE at all and actually shows a problem with the FE?

I'm sure if we convert the sphere to make it flat, the total area for the sphere would be more than the flat disk.
Therefore, less area= less money spent on fuel/energy.
Seems reasonable to me.
The area for a sphere is 4*pi*r^2.
That depends entirely upon the conversion used. With the typical azimuthal equidistant projection used, the area ends up being pi^3*r^2. This is larger by a factor of pi^2/4 which is roughly 2.4674
But it only works to give you less money spent on fuel if you can actually take a shorter path.

Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2022, 01:47:49 PM »
I'm sure if we convert the sphere to make it flat, the total area for the sphere would be more than the flat disk.
Therefore, less area= less money spent on fuel/energy.
Seems reasonable to me.

You'd have to convert it first.

Yeah, sorry about that bud.
I have to do my homework instead of spending an hour converting sphere and the flat disk.
Maybe one day when I have more time I will do it but not today.

Well... Flat earth 'maps' seem to imply an earth radius equal to the distance between the poles. This is approx. 20,000 km. Calculating from that gives a flat earth area of about 1.26 billion km2.

This is considerably larger than the accepted earth surface area of 510 million km2. A discrepancy which might have been noticed...

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Timeisup

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2022, 12:55:43 AM »
I'm sure if we convert the sphere to make it flat, the total area for the sphere would be more than the flat disk.
Therefore, less area= less money spent on fuel/energy.
Seems reasonable to me.

You'd have to convert it first.

Yeah, sorry about that bud.
I have to do my homework instead of spending an hour converting sphere and the flat disk.
Maybe one day when I have more time I will do it but not today.

Well... Flat earth 'maps' seem to imply an earth radius equal to the distance between the poles. This is approx. 20,000 km. Calculating from that gives a flat earth area of about 1.26 billion km2.

This is considerably larger than the accepted earth surface area of 510 million km2. A discrepancy which might have been noticed...

Why do people go on about alternative flat  earth maps ?

There is no such thing.

How can the already accurately mapped  surface of the earth have an alternative?

What continent, mountain range, river, ocean. Etc do you propose relocating?

It’s totally bonkers to think that an alternative map of the world can be produced.

Thousands of aircraft and boats leave airports and ports to go to other airports snd ports all over the world using  GPS to keep them on course and arrive safely at their destinations. Do you hear reports of huge numbers being lost because someone had misplaced NYC or Paris?

The locations of every port and city in earth is known and fixed, as are all the roads, railway lines etc, they cannot be magically relocated, there can never be alternate maps. Get it?

Such an idea of alternative maps just  beyond stupid, just think about it.

What a laugh!!!

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Stash

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Re: What Makes the Flat Earth Hypothesis Believable in the First Place?
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2022, 01:07:06 AM »
Such an idea of alternative maps just  beyond stupid, just think about it.

Did you miss this bit:

This is considerably larger than the accepted earth surface area of 510 million km2. A discrepancy which might have been noticed...
Yes Stash.

I am clearly the product of castrated machine learning.

You are quite obviously, human.