Question about Flat Earth “Gravity” From Acceleration

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Question about Flat Earth “Gravity” From Acceleration
« on: September 22, 2022, 03:42:46 AM »
Question about Flat Earth “Gravity” From Acceleration

In the flat earth model where gravity, 1G is from the earth and the whole solar system accelerating upward.  The earth, sun, moon and all the known celestial bodies accelerating in the same direction.  I assume since collectively the solar system maintains more or less the same dimensions and distances.  Why would any object released, drop at 1G vs continuing to travel upward with the known solar system?   Or at least try to to continue to move upward once released, and then drop at something less than 1G?

And how is there stronger than earth gravity in the sun for fusion?


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Mikey T.

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Re: Question about Flat Earth “Gravity” From Acceleration
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2022, 03:49:04 AM »
You make a lot of assumptions.  Fix.

Re: Question about Flat Earth “Gravity” From Acceleration
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2022, 03:51:21 AM »
You make a lot of assumptions.  Fix.

I have lots of questions because I don’t understand the flat earth model.  Thus the question.

Re: Question about Flat Earth “Gravity” From Acceleration
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2022, 05:46:43 AM »
You make a lot of assumptions.  Fix.

If you don't make assumptions when speaking to a flat earther then you have to ask them "how do you think days and seasons work, how do you think the dome works, do you think space is real, how do you think gravity works" for every single flat earther before you speak to them.

Assumptions have to be made because there's no single,cohesive agreed on model. Ever flat earther has different rationalizations for all the flaws. If there was a single model that actually worked then no assumptions would need to be made as its all explained by the model rather than that specific persons beliefs

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Mikey T.

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Re: Question about Flat Earth “Gravity” From Acceleration
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2022, 05:58:10 AM »
You make a lot of assumptions.  Fix.

I have lots of questions because I don’t understand the flat earth model.  Thus the question.
First, you assume the FE notions make logical sense.
Second, you assume they ascribe to universal acceleration.
Third, you assume those will actually answer.  This one is forgivable, you asked, it isn't on you to make them answer.
Fourth, you assume they believe in gravity in some form, while also UA, and fusion.

There are more.

You make a lot of assumptions.  Fix.

If you don't make assumptions when speaking to a flat earther then you have to ask them "how do you think days and seasons work, how do you think the dome works, do you think space is real, how do you think gravity works" for every single flat earther before you speak to them.

Assumptions have to be made because there's no single,cohesive agreed on model. Ever flat earther has different rationalizations for all the flaws. If there was a single model that actually worked then no assumptions would need to be made as its all explained by the model rather than that specific persons beliefs
Yes, but you should limit assumptions if you are asking questions or trying to engage in meaningful conversation.  Unless you are just trying gotcha stuff, then it is just entertainment and I would say ignore my comment.

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disputeone

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Re: Question about Flat Earth “Gravity” From Acceleration
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2022, 12:59:05 AM »
Question about Flat Earth “Gravity” From Acceleration

In the flat earth model where gravity, 1G is from the earth and the whole solar system accelerating upward.  The earth, sun, moon and all the known celestial bodies accelerating in the same direction.  I assume since collectively the solar system maintains more or less the same dimensions and distances.  Why would any object released, drop at 1G vs continuing to travel upward with the known solar system?   Or at least try to to continue to move upward once released, and then drop at something less than 1G?

For the same reason things fall down when we drop them now and don't hover in place.

It's incredibly basic, when you're accelerating in a car if you let go of a ball it will stay in place relative to the cars current velocity.

Very simply the ball will travel towards the back of the car as it also falls towards earth. That's because gravity and acceleration are indistinguishable.

I think your confusion lies more with basic physics than flat earth models. This should be easy to visualise.

Re: Question about Flat Earth “Gravity” From Acceleration
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2022, 04:44:42 AM »
Question about Flat Earth “Gravity” From Acceleration

In the flat earth model where gravity, 1G is from the earth and the whole solar system accelerating upward.  The earth, sun, moon and all the known celestial bodies accelerating in the same direction.  I assume since collectively the solar system maintains more or less the same dimensions and distances.  Why would any object released, drop at 1G vs continuing to travel upward with the known solar system?   Or at least try to to continue to move upward once released, and then drop at something less than 1G?

For the same reason things fall down when we drop them now and don't hover in place.

It's incredibly basic, when you're accelerating in a car if you let go of a ball it will stay in place relative to the cars current velocity.

Very simply the ball will travel towards the back of the car as it also falls towards earth. That's because gravity and acceleration are indistinguishable.

I think your confusion lies more with basic physics than flat earth models. This should be easy to visualise.


Some flat earther’s believe gravity is only from the earth accelerating up?  Is that false.


So what would happen in this flat earth model if your holding a ball, and then let go?  Would it cause an event similar to what we call gravity?

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disputeone

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Re: Question about Flat Earth “Gravity” From Acceleration
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2022, 06:35:25 PM »
Anon, I.
https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/why-is-acceleration-due-to-gravity-a-constant/

We would see no difference at all between a gravitational constant of 9.8m/s2 and accelerating at 9.8m/s2.

You know how pilots talk about G force?

That's acceleration measured in gravitational acceleration. 9.8m/s2 is one G.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-force

It wouldn't cause a similar event, it would be indistinguishable.


Just out of personal curiosity.
Can you picture a cube in your imagination then rotate it and change its colour?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2022, 06:37:39 PM by disputeone »

Re: Question about Flat Earth “Gravity” From Acceleration
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2022, 07:37:57 PM »
Anon, I.
https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/why-is-acceleration-due-to-gravity-a-constant/

We would see no difference at all between a gravitational constant of 9.8m/s2 and accelerating at 9.8m/s2.

Read the article from beginning all the way to the end. It doesn't say what you claim it's saying.

Quote
To answer this question at the elementary level, a number of assumptions will be made, which will become obvious later on. Still, at this point, we will simply deal with objects with spherical symmetry and no complicated mass distribution. In other words, the mass of each object can be considered to be at its respective center of mass.

...

As can be seen from above, we simplified our analysis by using a fixed distance “h” between the two objects, in order to focus on the importance of the mass ratio for the evaluation of g. But, what can we say about the experienced gravitational force an object AT the surface of the Earth meets, relative to the gravitational force it experiences say, 100 meters up in the air? Is it allowable for us to regard “g”, the acceleration of gravity, to be the same value in these two instances? Yes, it is, but due to an independent effect from the effect we just have looked at concerning the mass ratio:

If we set “h” as the distance from the Earth center to the surface, an object a distance “d” up in the air has distance from Earth center h+d=h(1+d/h).

But, just as with our mass ratio, as long as d/h<<1, we effectively can ignore this effect, and g can effectively be modeled as a constant.

This analysis is oversimplified. The measured value of g (acceleration of gravity) varies depending on your location and height above the geoid.
 
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You know how pilots talk about G force?

That's acceleration measured in gravitational acceleration. 9.8m/s2 is one G.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-force

That is an approximation of the average acceleration of gravity at earth's surface.

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It wouldn't cause a similar event, it would be indistinguishable.

If you substitute acceleration of the entire earth in place of gravity, the measured acceleration would be the same everywhere and would not vary with elevation. This is known not to be the case. It's approximately the same everywhere on earth - it varies by a fraction of a percent - and changes only slightly with elevation change of a few hundred meters or less.

So, no, "similar" is a better description than "indistinguishable".
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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disputeone

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Re: Question about Flat Earth “Gravity” From Acceleration
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2022, 09:58:01 PM »
No, it would be indistinguishable.

I'm not a flat earther, you're just wrong.

Re: Question about Flat Earth “Gravity” From Acceleration
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2022, 01:47:29 AM »
No, it would be indistinguishable.

I'm not a flat earther, you're just wrong.


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https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_geodesy/geo07_gravity.html

One reason that geodesists measure variations in the Earth's gravity is because gravity plays a major role in determining mean sea level. Geodesists calculate the elevation of locations on the Earth's surface based on the mean sea level. So knowing how gravity changes sea level helps geodesists make more accurate measurements. In general, in areas of the planet where gravitational forces are stronger, the mean sea level will be higher. In areas where the Earth's gravitational forces are weaker, the mean sea level will be lower.

To measure the Earth's gravity field, geodesists use instruments in space and on land. In space, satellites gather data on gravitational changes as they pass over points on the Earth's surface. On land, devices called gravimeters measure the Earth's gravitational pull on a suspended mass. With this data, geodesists can create detailed maps of gravitational fields and adjust elevations on existing maps. Gravity measurements accurately reflect elevation changes on the Earth's surface.


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disputeone

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Re: Question about Flat Earth “Gravity” From Acceleration
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2022, 01:50:01 AM »
Go and find somewhere on earth where things don't fall at 9.8m/s2.

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JackBlack

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Re: Question about Flat Earth “Gravity” From Acceleration
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2022, 01:55:05 AM »
No, it would be indistinguishable.

I'm not a flat earther, you're just wrong.
It is only indistinguishable locally.
As soon as you move to a large enough area (and with highly accurate instruments that can be a fairly small area), variations in g make it no longer equivalent.

Go and find somewhere on earth where things don't fall at 9.8m/s2.
How about the poles where it is 9.83 or the equator where it is 9.78?

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disputeone

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Re: Question about Flat Earth “Gravity” From Acceleration
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2022, 01:59:46 AM »
Have you measured this? With gravimetres or by dropping things?

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JackBlack

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Re: Question about Flat Earth “Gravity” From Acceleration
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2022, 02:44:47 AM »
Have you measured this? With gravimetres or by dropping things?
I haven't done so personally, but plenty of people have.

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disputeone

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Re: Question about Flat Earth “Gravity” From Acceleration
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2022, 02:48:16 AM »
Yeah I'm not arguing this with you Jack.

I'm not a flat earther.

Dataoverflow didn't understand that gravity was indistinguishable from acceleration in his OP.

He clearly did some research afterwards and has now found a good technical argument against Universal Acceleration.

I'm happy to concede it. I don't argue in bad faith.

Re: Question about Flat Earth “Gravity” From Acceleration
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2022, 02:58:04 AM »
Yeah I'm not arguing this with you Jack.

I'm not a flat earther.

Dataoverflow didn't understand that gravity was indistinguishable from acceleration in his OP.

He clearly did some research afterwards and has now found a good technical argument against Universal Acceleration.

I'm happy to concede it. I don't argue in bad faith.


So I played with dropping a bottle in the car and accelerating.  I understand the frame of reference better now.  And dropping a bottle at a constant speed vs dropping a bottle while accelerating.

 From reading how gravity is measured.  “In space, satellites gather data on gravitational changes as they pass over points on the Earth's surface. On land, devices called gravimeters measure the Earth's gravitational pull on a suspended mass”


Lead me to wondering if lift for an airplane would be different on a earth with no gravity and constant upward acceleration vs lift for an airplane on an earth at a constant speed/rotation with gravity? 

Re: Question about Flat Earth “Gravity” From Acceleration
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2022, 03:20:35 AM »
And that got me thinking about buoyancy and the seas.  And tides and tidal bores vs a large liquid body like our oceans under constant upward motion boxed in / encircled by an Ice Wall? 


And I was wondering what flat earther’s would post? 
« Last Edit: October 24, 2022, 03:22:09 AM by DataOverFlow2022 »

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JackBlack

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Re: Question about Flat Earth “Gravity” From Acceleration
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2022, 03:46:47 AM »
Yeah I'm not arguing this with you Jack.

I'm not a flat earther.

Dataoverflow didn't understand that gravity was indistinguishable from acceleration in his OP.

He clearly did some research afterwards and has now found a good technical argument against Universal Acceleration.

I'm happy to concede it. I don't argue in bad faith.
I saw you respond to Alpha, and I hadn't said anything before before because Data didn't understand the equivalence.

Lead me to wondering if lift for an airplane would be different on a earth with no gravity and constant upward acceleration vs lift for an airplane on an earth at a constant speed/rotation with gravity?
Well there is the increased elevation which reduces g. But a more significant effect (I think) is the Eotvos effect. Basically the plane pitching down to go around Earth reduces the apparent g. But if it goes against the rotation, then initially it is actually pitching down less than it would if it was "stationary" on the ground.
So if you are on a plane flying east, g is less. If you are on a plane flying west (to a certain point) g is greater.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E%C3%B6tv%C3%B6s_effect

And that got me thinking about buoyancy and the seas.  And tides and tidal bores vs a large liquid body like our oceans under constant upward motion boxed in / encircled by an Ice Wall? 

And I was wondering what flat earther’s would post?
Well what I would normally post when something like that is brought up would be this:


Buoyancy works the same with acceleration and gravity.
That is how a centrifuge works.
Effectively simulating a massive gravitational acceleration (sometimes thousands of gs) to separate out things.

But as that defeats there "balloons show gravity isn't real" claim, I'm not sure if they would post it.