How about some positivity?

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NotSoSkeptical

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  • Flat like a droplet of water.
Re: How about some positivity?
« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2022, 03:00:36 PM »
I'm positive that TimeisUp is still stuck on the you can only gain information from experts.

I'm positive that JackBlack will hound Timmie until he either stops posting or one of them gets banned.

Ok. Chump tell me. No tell the world how you find things out?

To imagine you spend your days carrying out a whole range of different scientific   endeavours is to ridiculous to contemplate.

To give you the benefit of the doubt please list all the meaningful research you have carried out and published this last month.

Or are you just a bag of wind like your pal Jack ?

People like you who imagine they make their own discoveries are just so pathetic.

Well depends on the what I'm doing.

I've learned from others and have taken what I have learned and expanded on it via trial and error.

You must have never built anything without your own hands or created something new from something old.

Wow… here we go again!

We are not talking about you learning new skills such as tying your shoelaces we are discussing the discovery of previously unknown knowledge. You developing skills that countless millions of others have whoopydoo give  the guy a gold star and a coconut. So what!

While you learning new skills is fine and dandy it’s hardly going to set the heather alight now is it?

Building something with your hands has nothing to do with this discussion. I can and do design and build things but I would never claim that me putting a new electrical supply into a garden office I built for example is some big achievement! It’s a semi-skill that millions of others have that like me me they have learned from others. It’s certainly no big deal and nothing to crow about.

Let’s remember all the armoured cable, glands, sockets etc I used were all pre-made for me, as were all the tools I used. Never mind all the lumber that was cut and milled to shape.

You guys along with Jack are a joke thinking you are doing something new,  original  and groundbreaking.

You know nothing you have not been told and you can do nothing that others have not done before you.


A ground

I've learned from others and have taken what I have learned and expanded on it via trial and error.  The scientific method isn't limited to advanced physics and new discoveries.  Learning from those that came before us can be enhanced or better understood by performing the same or identical experiments that they themselves performed.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2022, 03:13:15 PM by NotSoSkeptical »
Rabinoz RIP

That would put you in the same category as pedophile perverts like John Davis, NSS, robots like Stash, Shifter, and victimized kids like Alexey.

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JackBlack

  • 23451
Re: How about some positivity?
« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2022, 03:05:58 PM »
Bold claims....fantasy....what bold claim. The fantasy is all your Jack.
I know you are desperate to assign that fantasy to me, so you can pretend to be correct by attacking that fantasy, but it is all your invention.
You need to repeatedly make up claims, just because you can't refute what I have actually said.

As for bold claims, you have made plenty.
Here is one such example:
The issue is not how he is taking the photo but the fact he’s doing in the first place!

Which lead us down this path of you implying that there is no point in doing an experiment if the answer is already known:
You really are delusional.
What is the point in doing pointless experiments?
Only a fool would do such an experiment.
You really are the most wrapped and twisted person around.
What is the point in performing an experiment that was designed almost 200 years ago when the information it provides is readily available and far more accurate?
With you even boldly claiming that only a food would do such an experiment, and a clear implication that you think if the information provided by an experiment is already available and far more accurate there is no point in doing it.

Yet eventually when pushed, you cave and refute yourself:
Carrying out a 18th century experiment for fun is fine.

So great job.

And that is just in this thread. In other threads you have made plenty of other insane claims.

Telling lies and ignoring reality don't count. All you constantly do is put up irrelevant smoke screens and avoid answering the questions I put to you.
You sure do love your projection.

It’s a strange situation. A man claiming to have worked everything out from first principles on his own free from any religious scientific interference! What ever that is!
See, this is yet another one of your lies.
I have never claimed anything like that.
But because you couldn't actually defend the BS you spouted, or refute what I actually said, you need to invent this fantasy to attack.

The very kind of person who Jack claims is part of some scientific religion!
No, I don't.
I claim you want to make them part of your religion.
Not that they are part of any.

They would think of your claims as stupid and anti-scientific.
They would be happy with people repeating the experiment to verify the results, even if they didn't have any doubt in the veracity of the results themselves.

The thing is Jack likes to have things his own way by ignoring facts and the reality of the situation and just makes things up.
If he had one ounce of credibility
Again, you sure do love projection.
If you had one gram of credibility you would have provided direct quotes of where I have said these things you repeatedly falsely claim I have said.
But we both know that will never happen, as I never said them.

There is nothing you can discover of scientific merit Jack that is not already known.
The entirety of science is known already?
To say what you have said shows a complete  lack of understanding about  everything.
And more pathetic projection.
What you said requires that there is nothing of scientific merit that is not already known.
Otherwise, there is a possibility for me to discover some of these unknowns.

Wow… here we go again!

we are discussing the discovery of previously unknown knowledge.
That is what you continually want to try to turn the conversation into, along with having absolutely no expert assistance in any way, including having knowledge that is already widely known.

But this thread was about doing an experiment, one where you admit the results are already known. So clearly not what you are saying now.
In the prior thread it was about determining the shape of Earth, again, something already known.

But because you can't defend your BS claims regarding that, you do whatever you can to flee from it and instead set up this fantasy where we have all claimed that you can discover brand new things about the universe, without any technology or knowledge at all.

You know nothing you have not been told and you can do nothing that others have not done before you.
Just because you refuse to think for yourself (or can't), doesn't mean other people don't think for themselves.

Some few individuals do discover things
Such as everyone who obtains a PhD in any of the physical sciences. They will have discovered something new, even if it is fairly minor.

It’s also quite different from the fools on this site who appear to think that they can validate all scientific knowledge by themselves rather that just accept it.
And again with the strawmen, and topping it off with a false dichotomy.

We are saying you can verify some things yourself. But that would mean independent thought and thinking for yourself, rather than just blindly accepting the words of your priests, you attack us and misrepresent us.

There appears to be no end to how far people will delude themselves.
Yes, all so you can pretend you are right.

*

Timeisup

  • 4048
  • You still think that. You cannot be serious ?
Re: How about some positivity?
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2022, 12:24:59 AM »
I'm positive that TimeisUp is still stuck on the you can only gain information from experts.

I'm positive that JackBlack will hound Timmie until he either stops posting or one of them gets banned.

Ok. Chump tell me. No tell the world how you find things out?

To imagine you spend your days carrying out a whole range of different scientific   endeavours is to ridiculous to contemplate.

To give you the benefit of the doubt please list all the meaningful research you have carried out and published this last month.

Or are you just a bag of wind like your pal Jack ?

People like you who imagine they make their own discoveries are just so pathetic.

Well depends on the what I'm doing.

I've learned from others and have taken what I have learned and expanded on it via trial and error.

You must have never built anything without your own hands or created something new from something old.

Wow… here we go again!

We are not talking about you learning new skills such as tying your shoelaces we are discussing the discovery of previously unknown knowledge. You developing skills that countless millions of others have whoopydoo give  the guy a gold star and a coconut. So what!

While you learning new skills is fine and dandy it’s hardly going to set the heather alight now is it?

Building something with your hands has nothing to do with this discussion. I can and do design and build things but I would never claim that me putting a new electrical supply into a garden office I built for example is some big achievement! It’s a semi-skill that millions of others have that like me me they have learned from others. It’s certainly no big deal and nothing to crow about.

Let’s remember all the armoured cable, glands, sockets etc I used were all pre-made for me, as were all the tools I used. Never mind all the lumber that was cut and milled to shape.

You guys along with Jack are a joke thinking you are doing something new,  original  and groundbreaking.

You know nothing you have not been told and you can do nothing that others have not done before you.


A ground

I've learned from others and have taken what I have learned and expanded on it via trial and error.  The scientific method isn't limited to advanced physics and new discoveries.  Learning from those that came before us can be enhanced or better understood by performing the same or identical experiments that they themselves performed.

Learning is one thing. Discovery is quite a different thing and you keep confusing the two.

Learning a skill is taking information and techniques that already exist and repeating them and that’s absolutely fine. In the process nothing new or novel has been discovered, you have only repeated what countless numbers of others have done. No scientific method required.

Discovery is quite different. You want to know why? Go look it up.

"I can accept that some aspects of FE belief are true, while others are fiction."

Jack Black

Now that is a laugh!

*

Timeisup

  • 4048
  • You still think that. You cannot be serious ?
Re: How about some positivity?
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2022, 01:04:51 AM »
Bold claims....fantasy....what bold claim. The fantasy is all your Jack.
I know you are desperate to assign that fantasy to me, so you can pretend to be correct by attacking that fantasy, but it is all your invention.
You need to repeatedly make up claims, just because you can't refute what I have actually said.

As for bold claims, you have made plenty.
Here is one such example:
The issue is not how he is taking the photo but the fact he’s doing in the first place!

Which lead us down this path of you implying that there is no point in doing an experiment if the answer is already known:
You really are delusional.
What is the point in doing pointless experiments?
Only a fool would do such an experiment.
You really are the most wrapped and twisted person around.
What is the point in performing an experiment that was designed almost 200 years ago when the information it provides is readily available and far more accurate?
With you even boldly claiming that only a food would do such an experiment, and a clear implication that you think if the information provided by an experiment is already available and far more accurate there is no point in doing it.

Yet eventually when pushed, you cave and refute yourself:
Carrying out a 18th century experiment for fun is fine.

So great job.

And that is just in this thread. In other threads you have made plenty of other insane claims.

Telling lies and ignoring reality don't count. All you constantly do is put up irrelevant smoke screens and avoid answering the questions I put to you.
You sure do love your projection.

It’s a strange situation. A man claiming to have worked everything out from first principles on his own free from any religious scientific interference! What ever that is!
See, this is yet another one of your lies.
I have never claimed anything like that.
But because you couldn't actually defend the BS you spouted, or refute what I actually said, you need to invent this fantasy to attack.

The very kind of person who Jack claims is part of some scientific religion!
No, I don't.
I claim you want to make them part of your religion.
Not that they are part of any.

They would think of your claims as stupid and anti-scientific.
They would be happy with people repeating the experiment to verify the results, even if they didn't have any doubt in the veracity of the results themselves.

The thing is Jack likes to have things his own way by ignoring facts and the reality of the situation and just makes things up.
If he had one ounce of credibility
Again, you sure do love projection.
If you had one gram of credibility you would have provided direct quotes of where I have said these things you repeatedly falsely claim I have said.
But we both know that will never happen, as I never said them.

There is nothing you can discover of scientific merit Jack that is not already known.
The entirety of science is known already?
To say what you have said shows a complete  lack of understanding about  everything.
And more pathetic projection.
What you said requires that there is nothing of scientific merit that is not already known.
Otherwise, there is a possibility for me to discover some of these unknowns.

Wow… here we go again!

we are discussing the discovery of previously unknown knowledge.
That is what you continually want to try to turn the conversation into, along with having absolutely no expert assistance in any way, including having knowledge that is already widely known.

But this thread was about doing an experiment, one where you admit the results are already known. So clearly not what you are saying now.
In the prior thread it was about determining the shape of Earth, again, something already known.

But because you can't defend your BS claims regarding that, you do whatever you can to flee from it and instead set up this fantasy where we have all claimed that you can discover brand new things about the universe, without any technology or knowledge at all.

You know nothing you have not been told and you can do nothing that others have not done before you.
Just because you refuse to think for yourself (or can't), doesn't mean other people don't think for themselves.

Some few individuals do discover things
Such as everyone who obtains a PhD in any of the physical sciences. They will have discovered something new, even if it is fairly minor.

It’s also quite different from the fools on this site who appear to think that they can validate all scientific knowledge by themselves rather that just accept it.
And again with the strawmen, and topping it off with a false dichotomy.

We are saying you can verify some things yourself. But that would mean independent thought and thinking for yourself, rather than just blindly accepting the words of your priests, you attack us and misrepresent us.

There appears to be no end to how far people will delude themselves.
Yes, all so you can pretend you are right.

That’s a lot of words to say nothing of any substance.

You are at it once more Jack being dishonest, deflecting and telling a stream of lies.

The simple issue here is you rejecting reality and trying to construct an alternate reality.

You appear obsessed with repeating a 18th century experiment that was devised by someone other than you. The result of that experiment though accurate for its time is out of date, and is a fact that should be obvious to anyone.

You appear to be resistant to accepting the results of much more modern experiments but are more than willing to accept results from an 18th century experiment, why?
That experiment like more modern ones are not of your design. In both situations you are relying on the work and brain power of others!

You keep saying I make made up claims. Which claims have I made that are made up?

This is one of the many dishonest ploys you use when cornered. You never address the points I have made simply because you cant. This has happened every time I paint you into a corner.

It’s clear to the world what I have said, it’s clear to the world what your responses are.

There is no way you or anyone else could ever verify every scientific principal they have learned. The  more simple and straightforward ones are done in school while the more elaborate ones are simply learned as the methods used to verify them are just to difficult and complex to carry out. That is the reality.

I strongly doubt you have even replicated the Cavendish experiment from scratch the one you so love to drone on about. Yet more dishonesty. In the end so what you repeat the work of another!

You say accepting such knowledge which is the way the world of academia works worldwide  is somehow akin to a religion! It’s called accepting the evidence. You also give the impression that every scientific principle you drone on about you have verified from first principles!
That being simply delusional.

You harp on about doing one’s own experiments rather than buying into ‘the scientific religion’ and the only experiment you use to defend your stance is an 18th century experiment devised by one of the most famous scientists of his age, Henry Cavendish.  Hell, Cambridge University the very icon of what you despise named one of the most famous labs in the world after Cavendish! I wonder why that was?

The real reason  why you despise and mock the world of science and those who work professionally in these Cavendish labs is they carry out what you will will  never do, real science.

All you will ever do is drone on about the discoveries of others claiming that you have somehow verified it all on your own.

Delusional dishonesty or what? You are no more than a fraud.

By the way Jack the world is a sphere, I’ve seen the images, listened to the first hand accounts.  You should go  look and listen.
"I can accept that some aspects of FE belief are true, while others are fiction."

Jack Black

Now that is a laugh!

*

JackBlack

  • 23451
Re: How about some positivity?
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2022, 02:00:21 AM »
Learning is one thing. Discovery is quite a different thing and you keep confusing the two.
No, that would be you.

For your tantrum in this thread, it started with people doing experiments regarding perspective.
That isn't discovering something new.

For your prior big tantrum, that was regarding the shape of Earth.
That isn't discovering something new.


That’s a lot of words to say nothing of any substance.
Thanks for starting your post with a summary of what it is.

You are at it once more Jack being dishonest, deflecting and telling a stream of lies.
The simple issue here is you rejecting reality and trying to construct an alternate reality.
Again, this is describing you.
You are upset at people not following your religion, and can't actually refute what they say, so you invent all sorts of BS and dishonestly pretend they have said things they have not, so you can attack your fantasy and pretend you are right.

You appear to be resistant to accepting the results of much more modern experiments
Again, this is your fantasy.
Where have I indicated that?
No where.

You keep saying I make made up claims. Which claims have I made that are made up?
I have provided plenty of examples.
Another example is the one directly above, here it is again:

You appear to be resistant to accepting the results of much more modern experiments
This is a claim you have made up, it your fantasy. All because you can't refute what I have actually said.
Here are some more:
You know nothing you have not been told and you can do nothing that others have not done before you.
A man claiming to have worked everything out from first principles on his own free from any religious scientific interference!
...
The very kind of person who Jack claims is part of some scientific religion!
The thing is Jack likes to have things his own way by ignoring facts and the reality of the situation and just makes things up.
You imagine all you know has come through your own experiment!
...
There is nothing you can discover of scientific merit Jack that is not already known. The contents of your ass crack do not qualify.
...
Even amateur astronomers do actually discover things unlike you! who just pretends.
...
You know nothing about science that has not been discovered by others. You have no original knowledge that is based on your own work. Prove me wrong Jack.

And there are plenty more examples in your hate filled posts.

If you want to claim these aren't your made up claims, then how about you start trying to defend them, including with direct quotes from me where I have indicated those things you claim I have.

This is one of the many dishonest ploys you use when cornered. You never address the points I have made simply because you cant. This has happened every time I paint you into a corner.
No, this is one of the many dishonest ploys you use when cornered.
You can't actually refute what I say, so you just make up pure garbage and attack that instead.

I am under no obligation to defend the points you have invented and falsely claimed I have made.

There is no way you or anyone else could ever verify every scientific principal they have learned.
And here is another example of your dishonesty.
Did you bother reading what I said in the previous post? Quite obviously, you did not.
If you did, you would have seen this:
It’s also quite different from the fools on this site who appear to think that they can validate all scientific knowledge by themselves rather that just accept it.
And again with the strawmen, and topping it off with a false dichotomy.

We are saying you can verify some things yourself. But that would mean independent thought and thinking for yourself, rather than just blindly accepting the words of your priests, you attack us and misrepresent us.
Where I have already called you out on that pathetic strawman.
Yet here you are, making it yet again.

You say accepting such knowledge which is the way the world of academia works worldwide  is somehow akin to a religion!
No, that is yet another strawman of yours.
What I have actually said is your hatred of independent thought and people doing experiments themselves rather than just accepting what you are told is akin to a religion.
I have said that if the only way to obtain knowledge is by reading what an expert has said it is, then it is a religion.

The world of academia is vastly different to the religion you are trying to create.
The world of academia encourages independent thought and replicating experiments.

You also give the impression that every scientific principle you drone on about you have verified from first principles!
That being simply delusional.
Well you are right about one thing, that statement of yours is simply you being delusional.

I have not given that impression at all, and have objected to it before.
But you need to falsely pretend I have so you can pretend to be right.

You harp on about doing one’s own experiments rather than buying into ‘the scientific religion’
And more lies.
I say people can do experiments, opposing you lashing out at any who dares to try with you telling them they should accept what they are told.
I don't say these experiments need to be entirely their own invention.

Science is not a religion, but you are trying to make it into one.

The real reason  why you despise and mock the world of science and those who work professionally in these Cavendish labs is they carry out what you will will  never do, real science.
I don't. Again, that is your little fantasy you have concocted all because I said you don't need to just accept what an expert says.
Because I dared to question your religion you falsely paint me as anti-science.
Truly pathetic.

Delusional dishonesty or what? You are no more than a fraud.
And more pathetic projection.

*

Timeisup

  • 4048
  • You still think that. You cannot be serious ?
Re: How about some positivity?
« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2022, 06:02:46 AM »
Learning is one thing. Discovery is quite a different thing and you keep confusing the two.
No, that would be you.

For your tantrum in this thread, it started with people doing experiments regarding perspective.
That isn't discovering something new.

For your prior big tantrum, that was regarding the shape of Earth.
That isn't discovering something new.


That’s a lot of words to say nothing of any substance.
Thanks for starting your post with a summary of what it is.

You are at it once more Jack being dishonest, deflecting and telling a stream of lies.
The simple issue here is you rejecting reality and trying to construct an alternate reality.
Again, this is describing you.
You are upset at people not following your religion, and can't actually refute what they say, so you invent all sorts of BS and dishonestly pretend they have said things they have not, so you can attack your fantasy and pretend you are right.

You appear to be resistant to accepting the results of much more modern experiments
Again, this is your fantasy.
Where have I indicated that?
No where.

You keep saying I make made up claims. Which claims have I made that are made up?
I have provided plenty of examples.
Another example is the one directly above, here it is again:

You appear to be resistant to accepting the results of much more modern experiments
This is a claim you have made up, it your fantasy. All because you can't refute what I have actually said.
Here are some more:
You know nothing you have not been told and you can do nothing that others have not done before you.
A man claiming to have worked everything out from first principles on his own free from any religious scientific interference!
...
The very kind of person who Jack claims is part of some scientific religion!
The thing is Jack likes to have things his own way by ignoring facts and the reality of the situation and just makes things up.
You imagine all you know has come through your own experiment!
...
There is nothing you can discover of scientific merit Jack that is not already known. The contents of your ass crack do not qualify.
...
Even amateur astronomers do actually discover things unlike you! who just pretends.
...
You know nothing about science that has not been discovered by others. You have no original knowledge that is based on your own work. Prove me wrong Jack.

And there are plenty more examples in your hate filled posts.

If you want to claim these aren't your made up claims, then how about you start trying to defend them, including with direct quotes from me where I have indicated those things you claim I have.

This is one of the many dishonest ploys you use when cornered. You never address the points I have made simply because you cant. This has happened every time I paint you into a corner.
No, this is one of the many dishonest ploys you use when cornered.
You can't actually refute what I say, so you just make up pure garbage and attack that instead.

I am under no obligation to defend the points you have invented and falsely claimed I have made.

There is no way you or anyone else could ever verify every scientific principal they have learned.
And here is another example of your dishonesty.
Did you bother reading what I said in the previous post? Quite obviously, you did not.
If you did, you would have seen this:
It’s also quite different from the fools on this site who appear to think that they can validate all scientific knowledge by themselves rather that just accept it.
And again with the strawmen, and topping it off with a false dichotomy.

We are saying you can verify some things yourself. But that would mean independent thought and thinking for yourself, rather than just blindly accepting the words of your priests, you attack us and misrepresent us.
Where I have already called you out on that pathetic strawman.
Yet here you are, making it yet again.

You say accepting such knowledge which is the way the world of academia works worldwide  is somehow akin to a religion!
No, that is yet another strawman of yours.
What I have actually said is your hatred of independent thought and people doing experiments themselves rather than just accepting what you are told is akin to a religion.
I have said that if the only way to obtain knowledge is by reading what an expert has said it is, then it is a religion.

The world of academia is vastly different to the religion you are trying to create.
The world of academia encourages independent thought and replicating experiments.

You also give the impression that every scientific principle you drone on about you have verified from first principles!
That being simply delusional.
Well you are right about one thing, that statement of yours is simply you being delusional.

I have not given that impression at all, and have objected to it before.
But you need to falsely pretend I have so you can pretend to be right.

You harp on about doing one’s own experiments rather than buying into ‘the scientific religion’
And more lies.
I say people can do experiments, opposing you lashing out at any who dares to try with you telling them they should accept what they are told.
I don't say these experiments need to be entirely their own invention.

Science is not a religion, but you are trying to make it into one.

The real reason  why you despise and mock the world of science and those who work professionally in these Cavendish labs is they carry out what you will will  never do, real science.
I don't. Again, that is your little fantasy you have concocted all because I said you don't need to just accept what an expert says.
Because I dared to question your religion you falsely paint me as anti-science.
Truly pathetic.

Delusional dishonesty or what? You are no more than a fraud.
And more pathetic projection.

You really are a piece of work telling lie after lie to suit your own agenda.

No tantrum involved as always Jack the tantrum is all yours.

What is this fixation you have with religion? Why do you keep peddling it?

You say:-

I am under no obligation to defend the points you have invented and falsely claimed I have made"

Inventions! It was you who invented this ridiculous notion of religion. I never mentioned it.

You never defend any points I make you just evade and ignore Jack.

You appear by insisting science and its knowledge is akin to a religion that you don't accept anything it produces instead preferring to go with your own discoveries.

Is that the case or not? If not why do you insist on referring to accepting the validated findings of science as following a religion?

You can't have it both ways, you either accept proven validated facts or you don't. If you don't which 'facts' do you prefer and how do you validate them? What methods do you use for choosing what to accept?

You talk about misrepresentation and dishonesty and you then blatantly make stuff up:-

"What I have actually said is your hatred of independent thought and people doing experiments themselves rather than just accepting what you are told is akin to a religion.
I have said that if the only way to obtain knowledge is by reading what an expert has said it is, then it is a religion"

Where have I ever expressed hatred of independent thought? Thats your own spite and distortion of the facts Jack. We learn from the work of past experts its what the whole universal education system is based on. The fact you don't like it is irrelevant.

What's incredible and unbelievable is you appear to give the impression that you have personally validated all the knowledge you have.

You can't have it both ways Jack you have either discovered everything for yourself or you have accepted the validated and tested knowledge that is freely available to all that forms the basis of all scientific learning. Which is it Jack?

You really are a piece of work. You talk about doing independent experiments using the Cavendish as an example. An experiment that was designed and carried out by a past scientific expert. If you or anyone else repeated that experiment they would be doing it with the assistance of a past expert. There would be no other way of doing that experiment without resorting to expert help! the very thing you were both advocating at one moment and rejecting the next! make your mind up Jack. carrying out the Cavendish experiment would be relying on expert assistance! the clue being in the name.

On the one hand you appear to advocate carrying out the Cavendish experiment is somehow not following a 'religion' even when said experiment was designed by a past scientific expert.
While at the same time heaping scorn on those who just accept its finding and the finding of later validated experiments!


You said:-
"I said you don't need to just accept what an expert says.Because I dared to question your religion you falsely paint me as anti-science."

But you do need to accept much of the knowledge that science has produced as there is no way a single individual can do it on their own. Thats not a religion thats just accepting reality.

Even the Cavendish example you use is accepting expert help, in that you accepted that Cavendish had produced a valid experiment that produced valid results. As I said you can't have it both ways.

You suggesting that you can interrogate every scientific concept is plainly ridiculous. You said
" I said you don't need to just accept what an expert says."

So Jack what methods do you use that you yourself have devised to validate scientific knowledge. To pass the methods must be your own and not plagiarised from other experts, as you know how much you hate the whole idea of having to resort to experts, except Cavendish!












"I can accept that some aspects of FE belief are true, while others are fiction."

Jack Black

Now that is a laugh!

*

NotSoSkeptical

  • 8548
  • Flat like a droplet of water.
Re: How about some positivity?
« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2022, 07:19:07 AM »
I'm positive that TimeisUp is still stuck on the you can only gain information from experts.

I'm positive that JackBlack will hound Timmie until he either stops posting or one of them gets banned.

Ok. Chump tell me. No tell the world how you find things out?

To imagine you spend your days carrying out a whole range of different scientific   endeavours is to ridiculous to contemplate.

To give you the benefit of the doubt please list all the meaningful research you have carried out and published this last month.

Or are you just a bag of wind like your pal Jack ?

People like you who imagine they make their own discoveries are just so pathetic.

Well depends on the what I'm doing.

I've learned from others and have taken what I have learned and expanded on it via trial and error.

You must have never built anything without your own hands or created something new from something old.

Wow… here we go again!

We are not talking about you learning new skills such as tying your shoelaces we are discussing the discovery of previously unknown knowledge. You developing skills that countless millions of others have whoopydoo give  the guy a gold star and a coconut. So what!

While you learning new skills is fine and dandy it’s hardly going to set the heather alight now is it?

Building something with your hands has nothing to do with this discussion. I can and do design and build things but I would never claim that me putting a new electrical supply into a garden office I built for example is some big achievement! It’s a semi-skill that millions of others have that like me me they have learned from others. It’s certainly no big deal and nothing to crow about.

Let’s remember all the armoured cable, glands, sockets etc I used were all pre-made for me, as were all the tools I used. Never mind all the lumber that was cut and milled to shape.

You guys along with Jack are a joke thinking you are doing something new,  original  and groundbreaking.

You know nothing you have not been told and you can do nothing that others have not done before you.


A ground

I've learned from others and have taken what I have learned and expanded on it via trial and error.  The scientific method isn't limited to advanced physics and new discoveries.  Learning from those that came before us can be enhanced or better understood by performing the same or identical experiments that they themselves performed.

Learning is one thing. Discovery is quite a different thing and you keep confusing the two.

Learning a skill is taking information and techniques that already exist and repeating them and that’s absolutely fine. In the process nothing new or novel has been discovered, you have only repeated what countless numbers of others have done. No scientific method required.

Discovery is quite different. You want to know why? Go look it up.

From the American Heritage Dictionary....

Discover

1. To notice or learn, especially by making an effort.
2. To be the first, or the first of one's group or kind, to find, learn of, or observe.
3. To learn about for the first time in one's experience.


So no you are wrong. 

You are taking discovery to mean only the first ever to learn, observe, or find.   If you aren't the first, you did not make a discovery.  That's not a correct.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2022, 07:20:41 AM by NotSoSkeptical »
Rabinoz RIP

That would put you in the same category as pedophile perverts like John Davis, NSS, robots like Stash, Shifter, and victimized kids like Alexey.

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Mikey T.

  • 3545
Re: How about some positivity?
« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2022, 09:43:52 AM »
Notice how Timmy still won't come up with quotes of Jack saying he has discovered everything himself, or really any of the things he keeps using as a deflection away from where he may have made a bad take.  I wonder when the expert discussion will reappear.  He seems to be flirting around the edges but afraid of Boyd's immediate temp ban hammer if he even mentions the word expert again. 

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Bullwinkle

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Re: How about some positivity?
« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2022, 12:04:54 PM »
my head hurts

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JackBlack

  • 23451
Re: How about some positivity?
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2022, 02:13:30 PM »
You really are a piece of work telling lie after lie to suit your own agenda.
And more pathetic projection.
Can you provide a direct quote of a single lie?
And if it is calling you out on one of your claims, that means you also need to show that your claim wasn't a lie, especially if it was a statement about me you made.

What is this fixation you have with religion? Why do you keep peddling it?
Because what you are promoting is entirely anti-science. It goes against the very foundations of science and tries to replace it with religion.
Religion has continually held us back. If we followed your thinking regarding science we wouldn't have progressed very far.
For example, once someone decided light was a wave, that would be it, no questioning it every.

I am under no obligation to defend the points you have invented and falsely claimed I have made"
Inventions! It was you who invented this ridiculous notion of religion. I never mentioned it.
Yes, I was the one who pointed out that what you are doing is effectively religion, and saying why it is bad.
And I have explained why repeatedly, repeatedly defend this fact and you being unable to refute it.

But instead of honestly and rationally responding to that, you instead dishonestly pretend that it is a religion I follow and promote, to pretend I despise science.
You dishonestly pretend that I think science is religion.
They are entirely your own fabrication. They are pathetic strawmen you have set up to attack because you can't refute my actual position which I have made clear repeatedly.

I don't despise science. I despise the religion you are trying to turn it into.

So stop pretending I think science is religion. Stop pretending I don't accept anything I can't validate myself.

You never defend any points I make you just evade and ignore Jack.

You appear by insisting science and its knowledge is akin to a religion that you don't accept anything it produces instead preferring to go with your own discoveries.
Again, as I have explained repeatedly, this claim of your is pure BS.
It is a pathetic strawman you have set up to attack.
Every time you spout crap like this you are showing that all those insults you throw at me are describing you.
You are showing that you are lying or deluded.
I have never acted that science itself is akin to a religion. I have stated and explained how your attempted treatment of it is.

And like many religious people trying to defend their religion, you use all sorts of dishonest tactics/logical fallacies.
Another example is the false dichotomy you present here.

Is that the case or not? If not why do you insist on referring to accepting the validated findings of science as following a religion?
You can't have it both ways, you either accept proven validated facts or you don't.
This is effectively a false dichotomy where you again misrepresent my position.
Where have I ever said anything like that?
Again, can you provide a quote of where I did?
If not, stop pretending I have.

What I have objected to is your idea that accepting the findings of science is all someone can do, that they can't do an experiment to determine it for themselves or verify it or anything like that. Understand the difference?
With what you are suggesting, these findings are facts, that must be accepted as gospel and never challenged, not even challenged by doing an experiment to verify them yourself, even if you fully expect the results to agree with those "facts".
With what you are suggesting, these findings are the only way people can ever learn, they are incapable of discovering anything new or even discovering something that is already known but not to them. Instead all they can do is simply read the word of experts and accept it as fact.

"What I have actually said is your hatred of independent thought and people doing experiments themselves rather than just accepting what you are told is akin to a religion.
I have said that if the only way to obtain knowledge is by reading what an expert has said it is, then it is a religion"
Where have I ever expressed hatred of independent thought?
All over the place.
The first in this thread is here:
In a nutshell their whole stance is based on negativity and refusal to believe what is accepted by mainstream science.
Where you are indicating people should just accept what is provided by mainstream science, without questioning.
Another is here:
The issue is not how he is taking the photo but the fact he’s doing in the first place!
Where you attack people for thinking independently and carrying out experiments of their own.
And again here:
What is the point in doing pointless experiments?
Only a fool would do such an experiment.
and here:
What is the point in performing an experiment that was designed almost 200 years ago when the information it provides is readily available and far more accurate?

You have made it clear that you hate the idea of someone performing an experiment when the result is already "known".
That sure seems like hating independent thought, hating people thinking for themselves and instead treating science like a religion where they must simply accept the word of the priests of your religion.

What's incredible and unbelievable is you appear to give the impression that you have personally validated all the knowledge you have.
Again, stop repeating this same pathetic lie.
If you wish to claim such pure BS, then provide the direct quotes where I have stated that.
If you can't, then stop repeating the same pathetic lie.

You can't have it both ways
But I can, as what you present is another false dichotomy.
I can happily verify things for myself, rather than just blindly accepting what people say without question.
But that doesn't mean I have to verify EVERYTHING myself.
Likewise, I can discover things myself and contribute to the growing body of knowledge.

Try applying the BS you are spouting to people like Einstein or Newton.
Did they discover everything themselves, or did they just accept the knowledge of those who came before them without questioning or thinking?

If you or anyone else repeated that experiment they would be doing it with the assistance of a past expert. There would be no other way of doing that experiment without resorting to expert help!
You already went through this tantrum on the other thread, and had it repeatedly refuted with you unable to defend your position.
There is no need to bring in here for you to be repeatedly refuted on it again.

But you do need to accept much of the knowledge that science has produced as there is no way a single individual can do it on their own. Thats not a religion thats just accepting reality.
Again with a false dichotomy and more misrepresentation.
There is a fundamental distinction between having to just accept all knowledge, with no other option, or a combination of validating knowledge which you can and have an interest in while accepting other knowledge.
But you want to pretend there is not this middle ground, that you either accept everything without questioning or experiment or you accept nothing and validate everything yourself.

Even the Cavendish example you use is accepting expert help, in that you accepted that Cavendish had produced a valid experiment that produced valid results. As I said you can't have it both ways.
You suggesting that you can interrogate every scientific concept is plainly ridiculous. You said
" I said you don't need to just accept what an expert says."

So Jack what methods do you use that you yourself have devised to validate scientific knowledge. To pass the methods must be your own and not plagiarised from other experts, as you know how much you hate the whole idea of having to resort to experts, except Cavendish!
And more false dichotomies and misrepresentation.
Replicating the Cavendish experiment is not simply just accepting what an expert says.
Just accepting what an expert says would be not doing the experiment at all, and in fact doing no experiments ever.
Just accepting what an expert says would be accepting Newton's claim regarding gravity and Cavendish's result about the value of G, and never questioning it.
It would mean claiming Vulcan is real and rejecting general relativity.

Getting expert help or assistance is not the same as just accepting what an expert says.
If you get the assistance of an expert to design an experimental apparatus to test something and then carry out the test yourself to verify it, you are not just accepting what they say, especially if you understand the experimental setup and how it all works.
To understand why, in perhaps the simplest way, what happens if you get a different result?
For example, what happens if you go to measure the curvature of Earth, but a get a result of 9000 km for the radius?
Or go to measure the value of G and get a result that is twice the value provided by Cavendish?

That means you can come to a different conclusion (and people have, with more and more accurate results).
Just accepting what the expert says would mean taking the value they have and not verifying it at all.

Re: How about some positivity?
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2022, 02:39:48 PM »
Can't you boys play nicely?

Timeisup is clearly expressing a fact that scientific discoveries become canon in the scientific community. This is after the scientific experiment has been repeated repeatedly with the same result being the outcome always. Reliable certainty. So, Timeisup is right in saying, if you repeat one of these experiments, you will not make a new scientific discovery.

Jack Black on the other hand is using the term of discovery in a personal sense. Yes, Jack, you can do one of these scientific experiments and discover for yourself the scientific outcome. However, if you are inept and aren't careful, you can wind up with a flawed result. That in itself might be a personal discovery. Jack, are you listening?

Sounds to me, Jack is sloppy in his experiments if he thinks he's proven Earth is flat!

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Bullwinkle

  • The Elder Ones
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Re: How about some positivity?
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2022, 05:44:03 PM »
Can't you boys play nicely?

Like moths to a flame . . .

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Stash

  • Ethical Stash
  • 13398
  • I am car!
Re: How about some positivity?
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2022, 08:36:27 PM »
Discovering things that exist like scorpions and moons are quite different from the discovery of some new scientific principle w was hitch seldom happens.

Why is it different?

NASA's Webb telescope captures first evidence of carbon dioxide on an exoplanet
"By measuring this carbon dioxide feature, we can determine how much solid versus how much gaseous material was used to form this gas giant planet," Line added. "In the coming decade, JWST will make this measurement for a variety of planets, providing insight into the details of how planets form and the uniqueness of our own solar system.""

That's a new discovery with almost unending implications which will lead to new discoveries, maybe even upending what we currently believe in some areas of physics and cosmology.

And this new discovery just happened a mere month ago.

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NotSoSkeptical

  • 8548
  • Flat like a droplet of water.
Re: How about some positivity?
« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2022, 06:46:50 AM »
Can't you boys play nicely?

Timeisup is clearly expressing a fact that scientific discoveries become canon in the scientific community. This is after the scientific experiment has been repeated repeatedly with the same result being the outcome always. Reliable certainty. So, Timeisup is right in saying, if you repeat one of these experiments, you will not make a new scientific discovery.

Jack Black on the other hand is using the term of discovery in a personal sense. Yes, Jack, you can do one of these scientific experiments and discover for yourself the scientific outcome. However, if you are inept and aren't careful, you can wind up with a flawed result. That in itself might be a personal discovery. Jack, are you listening?

Sounds to me, Jack is sloppy in his experiments if he thinks he's proven Earth is flat!

Well that's not accurate.  If scientific discovery was considered cannon, science would stop advancing, because no one would question or re-perform experiments.  Advances in technology can allow for more accurate measurements and testing.  Thus reperforming experiments could lead to new information and thus allow for new discoveries.
Rabinoz RIP

That would put you in the same category as pedophile perverts like John Davis, NSS, robots like Stash, Shifter, and victimized kids like Alexey.

Re: How about some positivity?
« Reply #44 on: September 26, 2022, 03:59:18 PM »
Can't you boys play nicely?

Timeisup is clearly expressing a fact that scientific discoveries become canon in the scientific community. This is after the scientific experiment has been repeated repeatedly with the same result being the outcome always. Reliable certainty. So, Timeisup is right in saying, if you repeat one of these experiments, you will not make a new scientific discovery.

Jack Black on the other hand is using the term of discovery in a personal sense. Yes, Jack, you can do one of these scientific experiments and discover for yourself the scientific outcome. However, if you are inept and aren't careful, you can wind up with a flawed result. That in itself might be a personal discovery. Jack, are you listening?

Sounds to me, Jack is sloppy in his experiments if he thinks he's proven Earth is flat!

Well that's not accurate.  If scientific discovery was considered cannon, science would stop advancing, because no one would question or re-perform experiments.  Advances in technology can allow for more accurate measurements and testing.  Thus reperforming experiments could lead to new information and thus allow for new discoveries.

Nonsense! Scientists use scientific discoveries and build on them.

Yes, they reperform experiments, but not necessarily for the purpose of proving previous conclusions are incorrect. If an advance in technology comes along and an experiment is repeated utilising the new technology, then technically it isn't exactly the same experiment being repeated, is it?

Likewise, if all scientists did was to repeat previous experiments, and not build on them by treating results as canon, there would be no progress and no new discoveries.

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NotSoSkeptical

  • 8548
  • Flat like a droplet of water.
Re: How about some positivity?
« Reply #45 on: September 26, 2022, 04:17:57 PM »
Can't you boys play nicely?

Timeisup is clearly expressing a fact that scientific discoveries become canon in the scientific community. This is after the scientific experiment has been repeated repeatedly with the same result being the outcome always. Reliable certainty. So, Timeisup is right in saying, if you repeat one of these experiments, you will not make a new scientific discovery.

Jack Black on the other hand is using the term of discovery in a personal sense. Yes, Jack, you can do one of these scientific experiments and discover for yourself the scientific outcome. However, if you are inept and aren't careful, you can wind up with a flawed result. That in itself might be a personal discovery. Jack, are you listening?

Sounds to me, Jack is sloppy in his experiments if he thinks he's proven Earth is flat!

Well that's not accurate.  If scientific discovery was considered cannon, science would stop advancing, because no one would question or re-perform experiments.  Advances in technology can allow for more accurate measurements and testing.  Thus reperforming experiments could lead to new information and thus allow for new discoveries.

Nonsense! Scientists use scientific discoveries and build on them.

Yes, they reperform experiments, but not necessarily for the purpose of proving previous conclusions are incorrect. If an advance in technology comes along and an experiment is repeated utilising the new technology, then technically it isn't exactly the same experiment being repeated, is it?

Likewise, if all scientists did was to repeat previous experiments, and not build on them by treating results as canon, there would be no progress and no new discoveries.

Building on them doesn't exclude using or repeating previous experiments.  Timmie is saying that you can't learn from previous experiments thus repeating them does not and cannot bring about new discovery or new learning.  That's false.
Rabinoz RIP

That would put you in the same category as pedophile perverts like John Davis, NSS, robots like Stash, Shifter, and victimized kids like Alexey.

Re: How about some positivity?
« Reply #46 on: September 26, 2022, 06:33:28 PM »
Can't you boys play nicely?

Timeisup is clearly expressing a fact that scientific discoveries become canon in the scientific community. This is after the scientific experiment has been repeated repeatedly with the same result being the outcome always. Reliable certainty. So, Timeisup is right in saying, if you repeat one of these experiments, you will not make a new scientific discovery.

Jack Black on the other hand is using the term of discovery in a personal sense. Yes, Jack, you can do one of these scientific experiments and discover for yourself the scientific outcome. However, if you are inept and aren't careful, you can wind up with a flawed result. That in itself might be a personal discovery. Jack, are you listening?

Sounds to me, Jack is sloppy in his experiments if he thinks he's proven Earth is flat!

Well that's not accurate.  If scientific discovery was considered cannon, science would stop advancing, because no one would question or re-perform experiments.  Advances in technology can allow for more accurate measurements and testing.  Thus reperforming experiments could lead to new information and thus allow for new discoveries.

Nonsense! Scientists use scientific discoveries and build on them.

Yes, they reperform experiments, but not necessarily for the purpose of proving previous conclusions are incorrect. If an advance in technology comes along and an experiment is repeated utilising the new technology, then technically it isn't exactly the same experiment being repeated, is it?

Likewise, if all scientists did was to repeat previous experiments, and not build on them by treating results as canon, there would be no progress and no new discoveries.

Building on them doesn't exclude using or repeating previous experiments.  Timmie is saying that you can't learn from previous experiments thus repeating them does not and cannot bring about new discovery or new learning.  That's false.

All science courses repeat previous experiments because it teaches students how to conduct scientific experiments, and reinforces scientific principles. Those students aren't making new scientific discoveries though, are they?

Timeisup is not talking about learning. Timeisup is saying repeating such experiments will not bring about new scientific discoveries, and that is correct. Scientific experiments and their outcomes become canon, and to bring about new discoveries, you have to do new experiments.

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NotSoSkeptical

  • 8548
  • Flat like a droplet of water.
Re: How about some positivity?
« Reply #47 on: September 26, 2022, 06:53:45 PM »
Can't you boys play nicely?

Timeisup is clearly expressing a fact that scientific discoveries become canon in the scientific community. This is after the scientific experiment has been repeated repeatedly with the same result being the outcome always. Reliable certainty. So, Timeisup is right in saying, if you repeat one of these experiments, you will not make a new scientific discovery.

Jack Black on the other hand is using the term of discovery in a personal sense. Yes, Jack, you can do one of these scientific experiments and discover for yourself the scientific outcome. However, if you are inept and aren't careful, you can wind up with a flawed result. That in itself might be a personal discovery. Jack, are you listening?

Sounds to me, Jack is sloppy in his experiments if he thinks he's proven Earth is flat!

Well that's not accurate.  If scientific discovery was considered cannon, science would stop advancing, because no one would question or re-perform experiments.  Advances in technology can allow for more accurate measurements and testing.  Thus reperforming experiments could lead to new information and thus allow for new discoveries.

Nonsense! Scientists use scientific discoveries and build on them.

Yes, they reperform experiments, but not necessarily for the purpose of proving previous conclusions are incorrect. If an advance in technology comes along and an experiment is repeated utilising the new technology, then technically it isn't exactly the same experiment being repeated, is it?

Likewise, if all scientists did was to repeat previous experiments, and not build on them by treating results as canon, there would be no progress and no new discoveries.

Building on them doesn't exclude using or repeating previous experiments.  Timmie is saying that you can't learn from previous experiments thus repeating them does not and cannot bring about new discovery or new learning.  That's false.

All science courses repeat previous experiments because it teaches students how to conduct scientific experiments, and reinforces scientific principles. Those students aren't making new scientific discoveries though, are they?

Timeisup is not talking about learning. Timeisup is saying repeating such experiments will not bring about new scientific discoveries, and that is correct. Scientific experiments and their outcomes become canon, and to bring about new discoveries, you have to do new experiments.

I'm not saying that existing experiments will produce new results, but that existing experiments can lead to new ideas.  New ideas and new experiments lead to new discoveries.  As we don't know everything, we can't say that every idea and every avenue has been looked at within an experiment.
Rabinoz RIP

That would put you in the same category as pedophile perverts like John Davis, NSS, robots like Stash, Shifter, and victimized kids like Alexey.

*

Stash

  • Ethical Stash
  • 13398
  • I am car!
Re: How about some positivity?
« Reply #48 on: September 26, 2022, 09:41:59 PM »
I'm thinking repeated experiments with better technology may lead to more accuracy and therefore, something may be gleaned from the more accurate repeated experiment. Or perhaps there are discrepancies with the previous same experiments that lead to different theories, different "discoveries".
Also, one repeats experiments over time to see what or if there are any deltas. If present, maybe that leads to some new theory or discovery.

I'm not really in the camp that repeated experiments serve the sole purpose of education.

I don't think Timmie's argument is really that academic, it's more polemic if anything. It's:

FE is stupid because we all know the earth is a globe - So repeating any experiment that has to do with "determining" the shape of the earth is stupid.

Re: How about some positivity?
« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2022, 03:59:42 AM »
Any experiment to do with the shape of the Earth, should be a verification experiment that the Earyh is a globe. For the reason to discover a flat earth proof, IS a stupid reason.  Anybody repeating the Cavendish Experiment, should do so to verify where Cavendish went wrong.