Why are flat earthers so dishonest?

Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on October 09, 2022, 12:14:22 PM

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on October 09, 2022, 12:00:42 PM

Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on October 08, 2022, 10:23:59 PM

Flat earthers are dishonest in the same way Christians or other religions are. They believe in their heart of hearts what they say is true. That their world view and thoughts of the afterlife is true. But it's wrong.

Being wrong is not dishonest. Just wrong

How do you know their view of what happens in the afterlife is wrong?

If we wiped out all life on Earth and started over with different humans. We would still have religion. Are you suggesting it would be exactly the same?

Every single religion or faith - and there have been thousands if you count all the different factions - all claim something different. Given death is most certainly one place humans have never been to and come back from (I'm not talking about resuscitation) - we can safely say that everything we think we know is just a guess to relieve our fears of the inevitable death

Christians do not know any more about death than anyone else who has ever lived. No one knows what is after death. I'm not saying death is oblivion - But I'm not saying we meet St Peter at some pearly gates and jump around on clouds listening to singing angels and harps and all that other fairy tale nonsense. I happily say I dont have the answer. Some may assert its oblivion. I dont because I dont know. Some say death = Paradise with God/Allah etc (or eternal hellfire with Satan if you're a bady guy). I dont, because I dont know.

No one knows. But I'll wager everyone who thinks they know, only knows jack shit

So as no one knows, you can't say they are wrong.  It doesn't matter what you believe, what happens after death is unknown, and as such, you can't say that one's belief in what happens is wrong.

If a belief is based on no more than a whim or flight of fancy the chances of any of them being right are almost non existent as they are all based on…… zero facts and a ton of BS.

All these post death religious beliefs are no more than PR for the religion that pumps them out.

As Mr Torpedo said there have been thousands of religions over the years all making various stabs in the dark to suit their own agendas. People have a habit of making shit up when it suits them. That is the foundation of most religions.

The thing about made up shit is that some people have a real taste for it and can’t get enough of it.

The only thing we know about death is it looks pretty final with no return possible. As far as the body is concerned once the processes of life stops then those of death, decay and rot  take over. That particular process has been studied by many forensic agencies around the world and is well understood. That much we know. What happens to the inner self, the non fleshy part if what makes you, you? Who can say! as no one has ever come up with an answer to the ‘hard problem’.

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on October 09, 2022, 12:20:03 PM

Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on October 09, 2022, 12:14:22 PM

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on October 09, 2022, 12:00:42 PM

Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on October 08, 2022, 10:23:59 PM

Flat earthers are dishonest in the same way Christians or other religions are. They believe in their heart of hearts what they say is true. That their world view and thoughts of the afterlife is true. But it's wrong.

Being wrong is not dishonest. Just wrong

How do you know their view of what happens in the afterlife is wrong?

If we wiped out all life on Earth and started over with different humans. We would still have religion. Are you suggesting it would be exactly the same?

Every single religion or faith - and there have been thousands if you count all the different factions - all claim something different. Given death is most certainly one place humans have never been to and come back from (I'm not talking about resuscitation) - we can safely say that everything we think we know is just a guess to relieve our fears of the inevitable death

Christians do not know any more about death than anyone else who has ever lived. No one knows what is after death. I'm not saying death is oblivion - But I'm not saying we meet St Peter at some pearly gates and jump around on clouds listening to singing angels and harps and all that other fairy tale nonsense. I happily say I dont have the answer. Some may assert its oblivion. I dont because I dont know. Some say death = Paradise with God/Allah etc (or eternal hellfire with Satan if you're a bady guy). I dont, because I dont know.

No one knows. But I'll wager everyone who thinks they know, only knows jack shit

So as no one knows, you can't say they are wrong.  It doesn't matter what you believe, what happens after death is unknown, and as such, you can't say that one's belief in what happens is wrong.

If a belief is based on no more than a whim or flight of fancy the chances of any of them being right are almost non existent as they are all based on…… zero facts and a ton of BS.

All these post death religious beliefs are no more than PR for the religion that pumps them out.

As Mr Torpedo said there have been thousands of religions over the years all making various stabs in the dark to suit their own agendas. People have a habit of making shit up when it suits them. That is the foundation of most religions.

The thing about made up shit is that some people have a real taste for it and can’t get enough of it.

The only thing we know about death is it looks pretty final with no return possible. As far as the body is concerned once the processes of life stops then those of death, decay and rot  take over. That particular process has been studied by many forensic agencies around the world and is well understood. That much we know. What happens to the inner self, the non fleshy part if what makes you, you? Who can say! as no one has ever come up with an answer to the ‘hard problem’.

That's right, yet each and every one of us has been dead before, haven't we? Before our bodies were conceived at the moment of conception, to be exact. Being dead just means not having a living body to wake u p in and run around in. Could it be us humans are not just ghosts in machines?

The real you, your spark or essence, is your body's controller - conscious and unconscious. If that is a form of energy, and Einstein said energy can neither be created nor destroyed, then can anybody ever truly be classified as dead? Does anybody ever truly die?

But I digress. Flat Earth in human history is part of our race development in learning about our world and our surroundings. It no longer serves a useful purpose for humanity, save for the odd Turbonium here and there.

Discussions on this site while acknowledging mankind's ignorant past of flat earth belief, could be looking more to the future with new discoveries in science, such as in quantum mechanics.

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

Hi Stash.
Things are heating up, it's getting hot here, winter is over.

If a belief is based on no more than a whim or flight of fancy the chances of any of them being right are almost non existent as they are all based on…… zero facts and a ton of BS.

So the chance that the ancient Greek philosopher that believed Earth was round because a sphere is a perfect shape is almost non existent?

If someone were to roll a standard 6 sided dice, and I believe it will land on 6, the chance of me being right is almost non-existent?

That's right, yet each and every one of us has been dead before, haven't we? Before our bodies were conceived at the moment of conception, to be exact.

No, or at least there is no evidence to suggest that.
Before we were conceived, we weren't, we didn't exist at all.

Being dead is typically meant as no longer alive, and would require someone to be living before they could be dead.

The real you, your spark or essence, is your body's controller - conscious and unconscious. If that is a form of energy, and Einstein said energy can neither be created nor destroyed, then can anybody ever truly be classified as dead?

Yes. Think of it like a flame.
The flame exists as energy being converted. When that conversion stops, the flame is gone.
Likewise, when you start being you, that is because your body has taken in energy to make you, and when you die, that energy goes to the rest of the universe and you cease being you.

That energy becomes food for maggots who will feast on your corpse

From death begins new life. The 'afterlife' is just the life your bodies rotting corpse helps nurture.

Quote from: Timeisup on October 13, 2022, 12:18:08 AM

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on October 09, 2022, 12:20:03 PM

Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on October 09, 2022, 12:14:22 PM

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on October 09, 2022, 12:00:42 PM

Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on October 08, 2022, 10:23:59 PM

Flat earthers are dishonest in the same way Christians or other religions are. They believe in their heart of hearts what they say is true. That their world view and thoughts of the afterlife is true. But it's wrong.

Being wrong is not dishonest. Just wrong

How do you know their view of what happens in the afterlife is wrong?

If we wiped out all life on Earth and started over with different humans. We would still have religion. Are you suggesting it would be exactly the same?

Every single religion or faith - and there have been thousands if you count all the different factions - all claim something different. Given death is most certainly one place humans have never been to and come back from (I'm not talking about resuscitation) - we can safely say that everything we think we know is just a guess to relieve our fears of the inevitable death

Christians do not know any more about death than anyone else who has ever lived. No one knows what is after death. I'm not saying death is oblivion - But I'm not saying we meet St Peter at some pearly gates and jump around on clouds listening to singing angels and harps and all that other fairy tale nonsense. I happily say I dont have the answer. Some may assert its oblivion. I dont because I dont know. Some say death = Paradise with God/Allah etc (or eternal hellfire with Satan if you're a bady guy). I dont, because I dont know.

No one knows. But I'll wager everyone who thinks they know, only knows jack shit

So as no one knows, you can't say they are wrong.  It doesn't matter what you believe, what happens after death is unknown, and as such, you can't say that one's belief in what happens is wrong.

If a belief is based on no more than a whim or flight of fancy the chances of any of them being right are almost non existent as they are all based on…… zero facts and a ton of BS.

All these post death religious beliefs are no more than PR for the religion that pumps them out.

As Mr Torpedo said there have been thousands of religions over the years all making various stabs in the dark to suit their own agendas. People have a habit of making shit up when it suits them. That is the foundation of most religions.

The thing about made up shit is that some people have a real taste for it and can’t get enough of it.

The only thing we know about death is it looks pretty final with no return possible. As far as the body is concerned once the processes of life stops then those of death, decay and rot  take over. That particular process has been studied by many forensic agencies around the world and is well understood. That much we know. What happens to the inner self, the non fleshy part if what makes you, you? Who can say! as no one has ever come up with an answer to the ‘hard problem’.

That's right, yet each and every one of us has been dead before, haven't we? Before our bodies were conceived at the moment of conception, to be exact. Being dead just means not having a living body to wake u p in and run around in. Could it be us humans are not just ghosts in machines?

The real you, your spark or essence, is your body's controller - conscious and unconscious. If that is a form of energy, and Einstein said energy can neither be created nor destroyed, then can anybody ever truly be classified as dead? Does anybody ever truly die?

But I digress. Flat Earth in human history is part of our race development in learning about our world and our surroundings. It no longer serves a useful purpose for humanity, save for the odd Turbonium here and there.

Discussions on this site while acknowledging mankind's ignorant past of flat earth belief, could be looking more to the future with new discoveries in science, such as in quantum mechanics.

Well done making stuff up while Invoking Einstein in some vain attempt to give your notion some credibility.

So tell me what kind of energy is your inner self composed of?

Can you tap into this inner energy during a cold spell can you use it to power your central heating?

Quote from: Smoke Machine on October 13, 2022, 12:55:11 AM

Quote from: Timeisup on October 13, 2022, 12:18:08 AM

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on October 09, 2022, 12:20:03 PM

Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on October 09, 2022, 12:14:22 PM

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on October 09, 2022, 12:00:42 PM

Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on October 08, 2022, 10:23:59 PM

Flat earthers are dishonest in the same way Christians or other religions are. They believe in their heart of hearts what they say is true. That their world view and thoughts of the afterlife is true. But it's wrong.

Being wrong is not dishonest. Just wrong

How do you know their view of what happens in the afterlife is wrong?

If we wiped out all life on Earth and started over with different humans. We would still have religion. Are you suggesting it would be exactly the same?

Every single religion or faith - and there have been thousands if you count all the different factions - all claim something different. Given death is most certainly one place humans have never been to and come back from (I'm not talking about resuscitation) - we can safely say that everything we think we know is just a guess to relieve our fears of the inevitable death

Christians do not know any more about death than anyone else who has ever lived. No one knows what is after death. I'm not saying death is oblivion - But I'm not saying we meet St Peter at some pearly gates and jump around on clouds listening to singing angels and harps and all that other fairy tale nonsense. I happily say I dont have the answer. Some may assert its oblivion. I dont because I dont know. Some say death = Paradise with God/Allah etc (or eternal hellfire with Satan if you're a bady guy). I dont, because I dont know.

No one knows. But I'll wager everyone who thinks they know, only knows jack shit

So as no one knows, you can't say they are wrong.  It doesn't matter what you believe, what happens after death is unknown, and as such, you can't say that one's belief in what happens is wrong.

If a belief is based on no more than a whim or flight of fancy the chances of any of them being right are almost non existent as they are all based on…… zero facts and a ton of BS.

All these post death religious beliefs are no more than PR for the religion that pumps them out.

As Mr Torpedo said there have been thousands of religions over the years all making various stabs in the dark to suit their own agendas. People have a habit of making shit up when it suits them. That is the foundation of most religions.

The thing about made up shit is that some people have a real taste for it and can’t get enough of it.

The only thing we know about death is it looks pretty final with no return possible. As far as the body is concerned once the processes of life stops then those of death, decay and rot  take over. That particular process has been studied by many forensic agencies around the world and is well understood. That much we know. What happens to the inner self, the non fleshy part if what makes you, you? Who can say! as no one has ever come up with an answer to the ‘hard problem’.

That's right, yet each and every one of us has been dead before, haven't we? Before our bodies were conceived at the moment of conception, to be exact. Being dead just means not having a living body to wake u p in and run around in. Could it be us humans are not just ghosts in machines?

The real you, your spark or essence, is your body's controller - conscious and unconscious. If that is a form of energy, and Einstein said energy can neither be created nor destroyed, then can anybody ever truly be classified as dead? Does anybody ever truly die?

But I digress. Flat Earth in human history is part of our race development in learning about our world and our surroundings. It no longer serves a useful purpose for humanity, save for the odd Turbonium here and there.

Discussions on this site while acknowledging mankind's ignorant past of flat earth belief, could be looking more to the future with new discoveries in science, such as in quantum mechanics.

Well done making stuff up while Invoking Einstein in some vain attempt to give your notion some credibility.

So tell me what kind of energy is your inner self composed of?

Can you tap into this inner energy during a cold spell can you use it to power your central heating?

Do you have to shit on every person in the world who has a single different opinion to you? It's a proposition.

Consciousness and awareness as subtle energy won't be formally recognised as a form of energy until the day science proves it is.

In the meantime, you and the torpedo can sleep tight in your convictions of all those worms and maggots eating up your consciousness, awareness, memories, dreams, talents, and your personality when you're dead.

What do you have to say about me? I would like to know your opinion on me.

Quote from: Timeisup on October 13, 2022, 11:16:03 AM

Quote from: Smoke Machine on October 13, 2022, 12:55:11 AM

Quote from: Timeisup on October 13, 2022, 12:18:08 AM

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on October 09, 2022, 12:20:03 PM

Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on October 09, 2022, 12:14:22 PM

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on October 09, 2022, 12:00:42 PM

Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on October 08, 2022, 10:23:59 PM

Flat earthers are dishonest in the same way Christians or other religions are. They believe in their heart of hearts what they say is true. That their world view and thoughts of the afterlife is true. But it's wrong.

Being wrong is not dishonest. Just wrong

How do you know their view of what happens in the afterlife is wrong?

If we wiped out all life on Earth and started over with different humans. We would still have religion. Are you suggesting it would be exactly the same?

Every single religion or faith - and there have been thousands if you count all the different factions - all claim something different. Given death is most certainly one place humans have never been to and come back from (I'm not talking about resuscitation) - we can safely say that everything we think we know is just a guess to relieve our fears of the inevitable death

Christians do not know any more about death than anyone else who has ever lived. No one knows what is after death. I'm not saying death is oblivion - But I'm not saying we meet St Peter at some pearly gates and jump around on clouds listening to singing angels and harps and all that other fairy tale nonsense. I happily say I dont have the answer. Some may assert its oblivion. I dont because I dont know. Some say death = Paradise with God/Allah etc (or eternal hellfire with Satan if you're a bady guy). I dont, because I dont know.

No one knows. But I'll wager everyone who thinks they know, only knows jack shit

So as no one knows, you can't say they are wrong.  It doesn't matter what you believe, what happens after death is unknown, and as such, you can't say that one's belief in what happens is wrong.

If a belief is based on no more than a whim or flight of fancy the chances of any of them being right are almost non existent as they are all based on…… zero facts and a ton of BS.

All these post death religious beliefs are no more than PR for the religion that pumps them out.

As Mr Torpedo said there have been thousands of religions over the years all making various stabs in the dark to suit their own agendas. People have a habit of making shit up when it suits them. That is the foundation of most religions.

The thing about made up shit is that some people have a real taste for it and can’t get enough of it.

The only thing we know about death is it looks pretty final with no return possible. As far as the body is concerned once the processes of life stops then those of death, decay and rot  take over. That particular process has been studied by many forensic agencies around the world and is well understood. That much we know. What happens to the inner self, the non fleshy part if what makes you, you? Who can say! as no one has ever come up with an answer to the ‘hard problem’.

That's right, yet each and every one of us has been dead before, haven't we? Before our bodies were conceived at the moment of conception, to be exact. Being dead just means not having a living body to wake u p in and run around in. Could it be us humans are not just ghosts in machines?

The real you, your spark or essence, is your body's controller - conscious and unconscious. If that is a form of energy, and Einstein said energy can neither be created nor destroyed, then can anybody ever truly be classified as dead? Does anybody ever truly die?

But I digress. Flat Earth in human history is part of our race development in learning about our world and our surroundings. It no longer serves a useful purpose for humanity, save for the odd Turbonium here and there.

Discussions on this site while acknowledging mankind's ignorant past of flat earth belief, could be looking more to the future with new discoveries in science, such as in quantum mechanics.

Well done making stuff up while Invoking Einstein in some vain attempt to give your notion some credibility.

So tell me what kind of energy is your inner self composed of?

Can you tap into this inner energy during a cold spell can you use it to power your central heating?

Do you have to shit on every person in the world who has a single different opinion to you? It's a proposition.

Consciousness and awareness as subtle energy won't be formally recognised as a form of energy until the day science proves it is.

In the meantime, you and the torpedo can sleep tight in your convictions of all those worms and maggots eating up your consciousness, awareness, memories, dreams, talents, and your personality when you're dead.

You were the one to mention the S word!

My you’re touchy!

So this mysterious unknown to science, yet known to you energy how did you measure it?
How do you know it’s even energy?

This is always a mystery how people call stuff they know nothing about energy! And then claim it’s unknown to science, but is somehow known to them!

People! What can you do? Eh Smokey!

Explain that Smokey.

That energy becomes food for maggots who will feast on your corpse

From death begins new life. The 'afterlife' is just the life your bodies rotting corpse helps nurture.

Difficult to argue with that as it’s fits the facts.

The problem is a lot of people don’t like facts if they contradict with their beliefs.

The problem is people are ‘funny’ and not ha ha funny. Is that not right Jack?

Quote from: Timeisup on October 13, 2022, 12:18:08 AM

If a belief is based on no more than a whim or flight of fancy the chances of any of them being right are almost non existent as they are all based on…… zero facts and a ton of BS.

So the chance that the ancient Greek philosopher that believed Earth was round because a sphere is a perfect shape is almost non existent?

If someone were to roll a standard 6 sided dice, and I believe it will land on 6, the chance of me being right is almost non-existent?

Quote from: Smoke Machine on October 13, 2022, 12:55:11 AM

That's right, yet each and every one of us has been dead before, haven't we? Before our bodies were conceived at the moment of conception, to be exact.

No, or at least there is no evidence to suggest that.
Before we were conceived, we weren't, we didn't exist at all.

Being dead is typically meant as no longer alive, and would require someone to be living before they could be dead.

Quote from: Smoke Machine on October 13, 2022, 12:55:11 AM

The real you, your spark or essence, is your body's controller - conscious and unconscious. If that is a form of energy, and Einstein said energy can neither be created nor destroyed, then can anybody ever truly be classified as dead?

Yes. Think of it like a flame.
The flame exists as energy being converted. When that conversion stops, the flame is gone.
Likewise, when you start being you, that is because your body has taken in energy to make you, and when you die, that energy goes to the rest of the universe and you cease being you.

Oh… I think it would be a much bigger dice than that Jack.

You can make a 6-sided die as big as you want. It still has 6 sides. The clue is in the name

You can make a 6-sided die as big as you want. It still has 6 sides. The clue is in the name

More sides clot!

Say Infinitely more sides.

I’d like to see you roll that.

Quote from: boydster on October 13, 2022, 03:39:45 PM

You can make a 6-sided die as big as you want. It still has 6 sides. The clue is in the name

More sides clot!

Say Infinitely more sides.

I’d like to see you roll that.

So, not bigger then. Gotcha. Words, amirite? Truly a difficult thing to wrestle with. If you have a tough time figuring out which ones mean the thing are trying to say, feel free to take your time and use your resources. The internet is truly an incredible place when it comes to figuring this kind of stuff out, you just have to look. You got this, I believe in you.

Now, to get to the meat & potatoes of what you said. It seems to boil down to: things with different properties have different properties. You don't say! This is some great detective work, Tim. Truly fantastic stuff. You still failed to make a point that's relevant to what you responded to, but you've had a journey of personal discovery here that is remarkable.

Quote from: Timeisup on October 13, 2022, 03:44:14 PM

Quote from: boydster on October 13, 2022, 03:39:45 PM

You can make a 6-sided die as big as you want. It still has 6 sides. The clue is in the name

More sides clot!

Say Infinitely more sides.

I’d like to see you roll that.

So, not bigger then. Gotcha. Words, amirite? Truly a difficult thing to wrestle with. If you have a tough time figuring out which ones mean the thing are trying to say, feel free to take your time and use your resources. The internet is truly an incredible place when it comes to figuring this kind of stuff out, you just have to look. You got this, I believe in you.

Now, to get to the meat & potatoes of what you said. It seems to boil down to: things with different properties have different properties. You don't say! This is some great detective work, Tim. Truly fantastic stuff. You still failed to make a point that's relevant to what you responded to, but you've had a journey of personal discovery here that is remarkable.

What you on about?

So you know all about what’s beyond this fleeting existence?

Please share.

Quote from: JackBlack on October 13, 2022, 01:47:41 AM

Quote from: Timeisup on October 13, 2022, 12:18:08 AM

If a belief is based on no more than a whim or flight of fancy the chances of any of them being right are almost non existent as they are all based on…… zero facts and a ton of BS.

So the chance that the ancient Greek philosopher that believed Earth was round because a sphere is a perfect shape is almost non existent?

If someone were to roll a standard 6 sided dice, and I believe it will land on 6, the chance of me being right is almost non-existent?

Quote from: Smoke Machine on October 13, 2022, 12:55:11 AM

That's right, yet each and every one of us has been dead before, haven't we? Before our bodies were conceived at the moment of conception, to be exact.

No, or at least there is no evidence to suggest that.
Before we were conceived, we weren't, we didn't exist at all.

Being dead is typically meant as no longer alive, and would require someone to be living before they could be dead.

Quote from: Smoke Machine on October 13, 2022, 12:55:11 AM

The real you, your spark or essence, is your body's controller - conscious and unconscious. If that is a form of energy, and Einstein said energy can neither be created nor destroyed, then can anybody ever truly be classified as dead?

Yes. Think of it like a flame.
The flame exists as energy being converted. When that conversion stops, the flame is gone.
Likewise, when you start being you, that is because your body has taken in energy to make you, and when you die, that energy goes to the rest of the universe and you cease being you.

Oh… I think it would be a much bigger dice than that Jack.

No need to invoke a bigger dice. Deal with this.
You act like if someone believes something without facts to base it on, then it is basically BS and they are almost certainly wrong. That simply isn't the case.
Instead it depends on the prior likelihood of that statement being true if they didn't say it.
This means it will vary for every statement. Some they have a reasonable chance (just think, if I used a coin it would be a 50% chance), others have a much lower chance, and some are 0.
Once you actually determine if the statement is true or not, it then becomes either 100% or 0%.

Quote from: Timeisup on October 13, 2022, 03:29:57 PM

Quote from: JackBlack on October 13, 2022, 01:47:41 AM

Quote from: Timeisup on October 13, 2022, 12:18:08 AM

If a belief is based on no more than a whim or flight of fancy the chances of any of them being right are almost non existent as they are all based on…… zero facts and a ton of BS.

So the chance that the ancient Greek philosopher that believed Earth was round because a sphere is a perfect shape is almost non existent?

If someone were to roll a standard 6 sided dice, and I believe it will land on 6, the chance of me being right is almost non-existent?

Quote from: Smoke Machine on October 13, 2022, 12:55:11 AM

That's right, yet each and every one of us has been dead before, haven't we? Before our bodies were conceived at the moment of conception, to be exact.

No, or at least there is no evidence to suggest that.
Before we were conceived, we weren't, we didn't exist at all.

Being dead is typically meant as no longer alive, and would require someone to be living before they could be dead.

Quote from: Smoke Machine on October 13, 2022, 12:55:11 AM

The real you, your spark or essence, is your body's controller - conscious and unconscious. If that is a form of energy, and Einstein said energy can neither be created nor destroyed, then can anybody ever truly be classified as dead?

Yes. Think of it like a flame.
The flame exists as energy being converted. When that conversion stops, the flame is gone.
Likewise, when you start being you, that is because your body has taken in energy to make you, and when you die, that energy goes to the rest of the universe and you cease being you.

Oh… I think it would be a much bigger dice than that Jack.

No need to invoke a bigger dice. Deal with this.
You act like if someone believes something without facts to base it on, then it is basically BS and they are almost certainly wrong. That simply isn't the case.
Instead it depends on the prior likelihood of that statement being true if they didn't say it.
This means it will vary for every statement. Some they have a reasonable chance (just think, if I used a coin it would be a 50% chance), others have a much lower chance, and some are 0.
Once you actually determine if the statement is true or not, it then becomes either 100% or 0%.

Are you saying you know all about death and it’s aftermath? Are you an expert on this as well?

The problem with what religions say it normally involves broadly similar promises, some form of everlasting life if you follow their earth bound rules or some form of damnation if you break said rules.

Thought the Catholics did a great job of turning the whole thing into a nice little earner through the purchase of indulgences.
So Jack what chance does your dice rolling give to that being true?

Making pronouncements as religions do about what’s waiting for it’s believers after death is total made up  BS. How could if not be?
Going by your definition of BS.

Using the Jack Black book of logic every guess or stab in the dark about anything has a chance of being right!

How about there being pink poodles on Venus? Roll away for that one.

How about you making a reasonable statement about something rather than, as you always do going out on a long limb just to contradict for the sake of it!

If it’s not based on anything even remotely concrete or factual, it follows its just made up to suit the needs of the organisation that put it together.

The problem is it’s always packaged in some authoritative way for its adherents to lend credibility to the religion despite it always being nothing more than made up nonsense.

No doubt you will claim, as you do in everything else to be an expert on death and claim I’m telling lies!

Are you saying you know all about death and it’s aftermath? Are you an expert on this as well?

No. I'm saying you don't know, so you have no basis to claim that the likelihood of them being right is virtually non-existent. You have no idea what the likelihood is.
The point is that someone not knowing doesn't mean they are wrong like you want to pretend.

No doubt you will claim, as you do in everything else to be an expert on death and claim I’m telling lies!

You sure do love your misrepresentation.
Remember, you are yet to provide a single quote on when I have claimed to be an expert on anything.
Instead all you can do is continue to prop up your strawmen to knock them down again.

Quote from: Timeisup on October 14, 2022, 01:03:43 AM

Are you saying you know all about death and it’s aftermath? Are you an expert on this as well?

No. I'm saying you don't know, so you have no basis to claim that the likelihood of them being right is virtually non-existent. You have no idea what the likelihood is.
The point is that someone not knowing doesn't mean they are wrong like you want to pretend.

Quote from: Timeisup on October 14, 2022, 01:03:43 AM

No doubt you will claim, as you do in everything else to be an expert on death and claim I’m telling lies!

You sure do love your misrepresentation.
Remember, you are yet to provide a single quote on when I have claimed to be an expert on anything.
Instead all you can do is continue to prop up your strawmen to knock them down again.

Just as I can't claim anything on the subject of post death neither can anyone else! St least thats what I think.

You act as though you are an expert on everything Jack. Though the fact you dislike experts is rather perplexing!
I just wonder where you get your information from if you dislike experts so much!

That you going on about straw people again!

That said Jack. What the hell are you on about?

Do these people you think have a valid claim to know about post death actually know anything about it? If so how?

IF you do think they have a valid shout about what happens post death can you please explain how they formulated their opinions. You obviously know something, or imagine you do.

Timmy, if you'd like to try reading what people say and actually responding to the content of their posts, it would help you make better arguments and maybe prevent all of these non-sequiturs and moving of goalposts you seem to gravitate to.

Quote from: Smoke Machine on October 13, 2022, 12:25:41 PM

Quote from: Timeisup on October 13, 2022, 11:16:03 AM

Quote from: Smoke Machine on October 13, 2022, 12:55:11 AM

Quote from: Timeisup on October 13, 2022, 12:18:08 AM

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on October 09, 2022, 12:20:03 PM

Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on October 09, 2022, 12:14:22 PM

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on October 09, 2022, 12:00:42 PM

Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on October 08, 2022, 10:23:59 PM

Flat earthers are dishonest in the same way Christians or other religions are. They believe in their heart of hearts what they say is true. That their world view and thoughts of the afterlife is true. But it's wrong.

Being wrong is not dishonest. Just wrong

How do you know their view of what happens in the afterlife is wrong?

If we wiped out all life on Earth and started over with different humans. We would still have religion. Are you suggesting it would be exactly the same?

Every single religion or faith - and there have been thousands if you count all the different factions - all claim something different. Given death is most certainly one place humans have never been to and come back from (I'm not talking about resuscitation) - we can safely say that everything we think we know is just a guess to relieve our fears of the inevitable death

Christians do not know any more about death than anyone else who has ever lived. No one knows what is after death. I'm not saying death is oblivion - But I'm not saying we meet St Peter at some pearly gates and jump around on clouds listening to singing angels and harps and all that other fairy tale nonsense. I happily say I dont have the answer. Some may assert its oblivion. I dont because I dont know. Some say death = Paradise with God/Allah etc (or eternal hellfire with Satan if you're a bady guy). I dont, because I dont know.

No one knows. But I'll wager everyone who thinks they know, only knows jack shit

So as no one knows, you can't say they are wrong.  It doesn't matter what you believe, what happens after death is unknown, and as such, you can't say that one's belief in what happens is wrong.

If a belief is based on no more than a whim or flight of fancy the chances of any of them being right are almost non existent as they are all based on…… zero facts and a ton of BS.

All these post death religious beliefs are no more than PR for the religion that pumps them out.

As Mr Torpedo said there have been thousands of religions over the years all making various stabs in the dark to suit their own agendas. People have a habit of making shit up when it suits them. That is the foundation of most religions.

The thing about made up shit is that some people have a real taste for it and can’t get enough of it.

The only thing we know about death is it looks pretty final with no return possible. As far as the body is concerned once the processes of life stops then those of death, decay and rot  take over. That particular process has been studied by many forensic agencies around the world and is well understood. That much we know. What happens to the inner self, the non fleshy part if what makes you, you? Who can say! as no one has ever come up with an answer to the ‘hard problem’.

That's right, yet each and every one of us has been dead before, haven't we? Before our bodies were conceived at the moment of conception, to be exact. Being dead just means not having a living body to wake u p in and run around in. Could it be us humans are not just ghosts in machines?

The real you, your spark or essence, is your body's controller - conscious and unconscious. If that is a form of energy, and Einstein said energy can neither be created nor destroyed, then can anybody ever truly be classified as dead? Does anybody ever truly die?

But I digress. Flat Earth in human history is part of our race development in learning about our world and our surroundings. It no longer serves a useful purpose for humanity, save for the odd Turbonium here and there.

Discussions on this site while acknowledging mankind's ignorant past of flat earth belief, could be looking more to the future with new discoveries in science, such as in quantum mechanics.

Well done making stuff up while Invoking Einstein in some vain attempt to give your notion some credibility.

So tell me what kind of energy is your inner self composed of?

Can you tap into this inner energy during a cold spell can you use it to power your central heating?

Do you have to shit on every person in the world who has a single different opinion to you? It's a proposition.

Consciousness and awareness as subtle energy won't be formally recognised as a form of energy until the day science proves it is.

In the meantime, you and the torpedo can sleep tight in your convictions of all those worms and maggots eating up your consciousness, awareness, memories, dreams, talents, and your personality when you're dead.

You were the one to mention the S word!

My you’re touchy!

So this mysterious unknown to science, yet known to you energy how did you measure it?
How do you know it’s even energy?

This is always a mystery how people call stuff they know nothing about energy! And then claim it’s unknown to science, but is somehow known to them!

People! What can you do? Eh Smokey!

Explain that Smokey.

I'm in the middle of my 7 nights of night work. I'm more easily irritated than usual, especially by stupid people.

Well, you tell me, Mr know-it-all. How do I measure my own consciousness and unconsciousness, Tiemeup? Tell me, where do my thoughts originate? What regulates my state of mind? What physical scientific device would you like me to use? While I'm at it, maybe I should measure what capacity my memory storage is at. Tell me how I do that.

Your consciousness is firmly seated in your head, isn't it, Tiemeup? Have you ever tried to move your consciousness to another part of your body? What's life like from the fingernail on your little finger on your right hand? If you can do that, try moving your consciousness outside your body, maybe to a corner of your room. You think I'm delirious from.my night shift and just speaking shit, don't you? Oops, I said the 's' word again!

I'm self aware and know my own consciousness, and I know my consciousness is not my body. I refer to my body as 'me' but 'I' am controlling it. I'm also pretty sure my consciousness and my thoughts are a form of energy. As for death, I don't know about you, but I die a mini death every time I go to sleep. See how subjective it can be?

For all his faults, at least Turbonium thinks deeply about his flat earth beliefs, and isn't hanging off every word of scientists. At least he thinks for himself. You however. Your depths, Tiemeup, go no deeper than what science has to offer.

Just as I can't claim anything on the subject of post death neither can anyone else!

Yet you did, by claiming that they are almost certainly wrong.

You act as though you are an expert on everything Jack.

No I don't, that is just your pathetic strawman because you can't refute what I actually say.

Though the fact you dislike experts is rather perplexing!

Where have I ever indicating anything like that?
Again, you can't address what I say, so you just set up pathetic strawmen to attack.

That said Jack. What the hell are you on about?

I have made that clear. If you bothered reading my posts and trying to actually respond to what I say, rather than spending all your time setting up pathetic strawmen to attack, you would know what I am on about.

My point is that your claim that they are almost certainly wrong is just as baseless as their claims.

Quote from: Timeisup on October 13, 2022, 03:23:01 PM

Quote from: Smoke Machine on October 13, 2022, 12:25:41 PM

Quote from: Timeisup on October 13, 2022, 11:16:03 AM

Quote from: Smoke Machine on October 13, 2022, 12:55:11 AM

Quote from: Timeisup on October 13, 2022, 12:18:08 AM

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on October 09, 2022, 12:20:03 PM

Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on October 09, 2022, 12:14:22 PM

Quote from: NotSoSkeptical on October 09, 2022, 12:00:42 PM

Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on October 08, 2022, 10:23:59 PM

Flat earthers are dishonest in the same way Christians or other religions are. They believe in their heart of hearts what they say is true. That their world view and thoughts of the afterlife is true. But it's wrong.

Being wrong is not dishonest. Just wrong

How do you know their view of what happens in the afterlife is wrong?

If we wiped out all life on Earth and started over with different humans. We would still have religion. Are you suggesting it would be exactly the same?

Every single religion or faith - and there have been thousands if you count all the different factions - all claim something different. Given death is most certainly one place humans have never been to and come back from (I'm not talking about resuscitation) - we can safely say that everything we think we know is just a guess to relieve our fears of the inevitable death

Christians do not know any more about death than anyone else who has ever lived. No one knows what is after death. I'm not saying death is oblivion - But I'm not saying we meet St Peter at some pearly gates and jump around on clouds listening to singing angels and harps and all that other fairy tale nonsense. I happily say I dont have the answer. Some may assert its oblivion. I dont because I dont know. Some say death = Paradise with God/Allah etc (or eternal hellfire with Satan if you're a bady guy). I dont, because I dont know.

No one knows. But I'll wager everyone who thinks they know, only knows jack shit

So as no one knows, you can't say they are wrong.  It doesn't matter what you believe, what happens after death is unknown, and as such, you can't say that one's belief in what happens is wrong.

If a belief is based on no more than a whim or flight of fancy the chances of any of them being right are almost non existent as they are all based on…… zero facts and a ton of BS.

All these post death religious beliefs are no more than PR for the religion that pumps them out.

As Mr Torpedo said there have been thousands of religions over the years all making various stabs in the dark to suit their own agendas. People have a habit of making shit up when it suits them. That is the foundation of most religions.

The thing about made up shit is that some people have a real taste for it and can’t get enough of it.

The only thing we know about death is it looks pretty final with no return possible. As far as the body is concerned once the processes of life stops then those of death, decay and rot  take over. That particular process has been studied by many forensic agencies around the world and is well understood. That much we know. What happens to the inner self, the non fleshy part if what makes you, you? Who can say! as no one has ever come up with an answer to the ‘hard problem’.

That's right, yet each and every one of us has been dead before, haven't we? Before our bodies were conceived at the moment of conception, to be exact. Being dead just means not having a living body to wake u p in and run around in. Could it be us humans are not just ghosts in machines?

The real you, your spark or essence, is your body's controller - conscious and unconscious. If that is a form of energy, and Einstein said energy can neither be created nor destroyed, then can anybody ever truly be classified as dead? Does anybody ever truly die?

But I digress. Flat Earth in human history is part of our race development in learning about our world and our surroundings. It no longer serves a useful purpose for humanity, save for the odd Turbonium here and there.

Discussions on this site while acknowledging mankind's ignorant past of flat earth belief, could be looking more to the future with new discoveries in science, such as in quantum mechanics.

Well done making stuff up while Invoking Einstein in some vain attempt to give your notion some credibility.

So tell me what kind of energy is your inner self composed of?

Can you tap into this inner energy during a cold spell can you use it to power your central heating?

Do you have to shit on every person in the world who has a single different opinion to you? It's a proposition.

Consciousness and awareness as subtle energy won't be formally recognised as a form of energy until the day science proves it is.

In the meantime, you and the torpedo can sleep tight in your convictions of all those worms and maggots eating up your consciousness, awareness, memories, dreams, talents, and your personality when you're dead.

You were the one to mention the S word!

My you’re touchy!

So this mysterious unknown to science, yet known to you energy how did you measure it?
How do you know it’s even energy?

This is always a mystery how people call stuff they know nothing about energy! And then claim it’s unknown to science, but is somehow known to them!

People! What can you do? Eh Smokey!

Explain that Smokey.

I'm in the middle of my 7 nights of night work. I'm more easily irritated than usual, especially by stupid people.

Well, you tell me, Mr know-it-all. How do I measure my own consciousness and unconsciousness, Tiemeup? Tell me, where do my thoughts originate? What regulates my state of mind? What physical scientific device would you like me to use? While I'm at it, maybe I should measure what capacity my memory storage is at. Tell me how I do that.

Your consciousness is firmly seated in your head, isn't it, Tiemeup? Have you ever tried to move your consciousness to another part of your body? What's life like from the fingernail on your little finger on your right hand? If you can do that, try moving your consciousness outside your body, maybe to a corner of your room. You think I'm delirious from.my night shift and just speaking shit, don't you? Oops, I said the 's' word again!

I'm self aware and know my own consciousness, and I know my consciousness is not my body. I refer to my body as 'me' but 'I' am controlling it. I'm also pretty sure my consciousness and my thoughts are a form of energy. As for death, I don't know about you, but I die a mini death every time I go to sleep. See how subjective it can be?

For all his faults, at least Turbonium thinks deeply about his flat earth beliefs, and isn't hanging off every word of scientists. At least he thinks for himself. You however. Your depths, Tiemeup, go no deeper than what science has to offer.

Your irritated. Well good for you.

As I said and if you had been paying attention, no one knows. Hence the name given to it:-
The hard problem or the hard question.

It’s hard because no one as yet has come up with an answer to definitively explain what conciseness is and what gives rise to it. How a collection of non thinking atoms when arranged into a human being can suddenly think and become aware of themselves and the world. It’s also not know what happens to this conciseness when the biological system that may or may not have given rise to it ceases to exist.

These are the current known facts that you may or may not like, or even be irritated by. Your choice.

The other fact is I’m NOT saying I know, I’m saying I dont know and neither does anyone else. Though if you do know I’m sure there is a Nobel with your name on it.

The fact that you are irritated by this situation is your choice. No one other than yourself is making you irritated.

The issue hangs on the fact that no one knows. Religions that have attempted to offer answers have given no more than opinions based on nothing more than what suits their beliefs and amounts to no more than fairy stories.

If you in your irritated state think otherwise then go ahead and produce your evidence something no one, to date, has been able to do.

If science is not good enough for you where are you going to get your information from. Once you have decided what you like how are you going to determine if it’s correct?
Use your feelings?

Quote from: Timeisup on October 14, 2022, 10:10:07 AM

Just as I can't claim anything on the subject of post death neither can anyone else!

Yet you did, by claiming that they are almost certainly wrong.

Quote from: Timeisup on October 14, 2022, 10:10:07 AM

You act as though you are an expert on everything Jack.

No I don't, that is just your pathetic strawman because you can't refute what I actually say.

Quote from: Timeisup on October 14, 2022, 10:10:07 AM

Though the fact you dislike experts is rather perplexing!

Where have I ever indicating anything like that?
Again, you can't address what I say, so you just set up pathetic strawmen to attack.

Quote from: Timeisup on October 14, 2022, 10:10:07 AM

That said Jack. What the hell are you on about?

I have made that clear. If you bothered reading my posts and trying to actually respond to what I say, rather than spending all your time setting up pathetic strawmen to attack, you would know what I am on about.

My point is that your claim that they are almost certainly wrong is just as baseless as their claims.

I’ll state I’ve no idea what conciseness is how it works and what happens to it after death. Not a clue nor inkling or even the remotest insight. My understanding is nor does anyone else know.

You appear to suggest that sone religious types must fit have a chance of being right. How about you explain how they are right.

How about you explain how they arrived at their answers.

You could also explain how they were able to confirm their findings as you appear to be of the opinion that they could be right.

You can also explain on what basis you think they could be right when currently the understanding is no one knows, not even you.

You appear to suggest that sone religious types must fit have a chance of being right. How about you explain how they are right.

Lighten up Francis...

JB: "My point is that your claim that they are almost certainly wrong is just as baseless as their claims."

Do you not get the logic?

I’ll state I’ve no idea what conciseness is how it works and what happens to it after death. Not a clue nor inkling or even the remotest insight. My understanding is nor does anyone else know.

And what that means is you have no idea what the chance of people making claims about it have of being correct.

You appear to suggest that sone religious types must fit have a chance of being right.

No. I'm suggesting no one knows what the chance of them being right is.
This is in contrast to you, who is indicating that they are almost certainly wrong, that there is basically no chance that they are right. Even though you have no idea.

How about you explain how you know they are wrong, when you admit that you don't know?

If you don't know anything about what happens after death then you cannot know that what they believe is wrong.

You can also explain on what basis you think they could be right when currently the understanding is no one knows, not even you.

Again, that is quite simple.
Go back to the dice.
I roll a 6 sided dice, covered with a cup. What face is up? No one knows. No one has any evidence of what face is up.
But if I get 6 people, and they all say a different integer from 1 to 6 (inclusive), one of them must be right.
Each of them could be right, even though they don't know.

Yet here you are acting like none of them could be right.

Do you understand the difference between being right, and knowing something (or even knowing that you are right)?

Quote from: Timeisup on October 15, 2022, 12:44:59 AM

You appear to suggest that sone religious types must fit have a chance of being right. How about you explain how they are right.

Lighten up Francis...

JB: "My point is that your claim that they are almost certainly wrong is just as baseless as their claims."

Do you not get the logic?

Ok Joe

You tell me which are right and which are wrong. There have been thousands of religions all with differing explanations. They can’t all be right. Could you explain which are correct and which are not how you arrived at your decision.

Could you also explain how the religion you have determined is correct arrived at their understanding.

I simply said none of them are right as current evidence suggests that nothing concrete is know about post life. If that’s the case then none can be correct.
In reality each individual religion made up a story to suit its own particular narrative. That is unless you have evidence that suggests otherwise.

If the mechanism that creates conciseness, that’s assuming there is one, from inanimate matter is not known or understood how can someone or organisation proclaim they know what happens when the inanimate matter that housed this  conciseness no longer functions.

You tell me. The world is waiting.

Quote from: Timeisup on October 15, 2022, 12:44:59 AM

I’ll state I’ve no idea what conciseness is how it works and what happens to it after death. Not a clue nor inkling or even the remotest insight. My understanding is nor does anyone else know.

And what that means is you have no idea what the chance of people making claims about it have of being correct.

Quote from: Timeisup on October 15, 2022, 12:44:59 AM

You appear to suggest that sone religious types must fit have a chance of being right.

No. I'm suggesting no one knows what the chance of them being right is.
This is in contrast to you, who is indicating that they are almost certainly wrong, that there is basically no chance that they are right. Even though you have no idea.

How about you explain how you know they are wrong, when you admit that you don't know?

If you don't know anything about what happens after death then you cannot know that what they believe is wrong.

Quote from: Timeisup on October 15, 2022, 12:44:59 AM

You can also explain on what basis you think they could be right when currently the understanding is no one knows, not even you.

Again, that is quite simple.
Go back to the dice.
I roll a 6 sided dice, covered with a cup. What face is up? No one knows. No one has any evidence of what face is up.
But if I get 6 people, and they all say a different integer from 1 to 6 (inclusive), one of them must be right.
Each of them could be right, even though they don't know.

Yet here you are acting like none of them could be right.

Do you understand the difference between being right, and knowing something (or even knowing that you are right)?

What you appear to be suggesting is this.

If enough people guess or make a stab in the dark about a particular unknown situation there is a chance that one may be correct by chance.

What I’m suggesting is based on the fact that no one currently has any idea about the nature of the post death situation. Then it is unlikely that any statement made by any religious group is anymore than wishful thinking or just plain poppycock given the motivation for their own particular offering.

Religions made stories up to placate and offer succour to their members and believers. They were in the PR business with no facts required. There were thousands of religions each offering an answer.
The fact that most of these answers were produced hundreds or even thousands of years ago before science when actual evidence was not a requirement and superstition ruled the day says much about the stories that each produced.

Earthquake! The gods must be angry!

As you appear to be suggesting that one of them had a chance of being correct can you explain why you think that is the case. Can you also explain how that religion you are suggesting knows the answer arrived at it.

The truth about post life like life itself is pretty digital. You are either right or wrong alive or dead.

Nothing or not very much is known about what it is that creates life from inanimate  matter and generates a conciseness in the process. Or if that’s what actually happens!  Nothing  is known about what happens to that conciseness or whatever it is once the biological system that appeared to contain it ceases to exist.

Though the phrase dust to dust ashes to ashes does appear to have some ring of truth to it.

Quote from: Timeisup on October 15, 2022, 12:44:59 AM

You appear to suggest that sone religious types must fit have a chance of being right. How about you explain how they are right.

Lighten up Francis...

JB: "My point is that your claim that they are almost certainly wrong is just as baseless as their claims."

Do you not get the logic?

You actually think you have presented a statement that had logic behind it!

Think again.

They can’t all be right.

But that doesn't mean they are all wrong.

Could you explain how you know that they are all wrong.

I simply said none of them are right as current evidence suggests that nothing concrete is know about post life. If that’s the case then none can be correct.

Again, no it isn't. That isn't how it works.

If you don't know, then you don't know if they are right or wrong.

Again, consider the dice example.
Nothing concrete is known about which face is up.
We have 6 people all saying 6 different things.

According to your claim there, that means that they must all be wrong.
So if all 6 are wrong, what face is up?

If the mechanism that creates conciseness, that’s assuming there is one, from inanimate matter is not known or understood how can someone or organisation proclaim they know what happens when the inanimate matter that housed this  conciseness no longer functions.

If it isn't known, how can you or anyone else claim that someone else is wrong?

What you appear to be suggesting is this.

No, I seem to be understanding quite well and clearly demonstrating why you are wrong.

If enough people guess or make a stab in the dark about a particular unknown situation there is a chance that one may be correct by chance.

So if enough religious people guess or make a stab in the dark about a particular unknown situation (e.g. what happens after you die), there is a chance that one may be correct by chance?
Directly contradicting your prior claims that they are wrong.

What I’m suggesting is based on the fact that no one currently has any idea about the nature of the post death situation.

What you are suggesting goes directly against that fact.
You are acting like you know, as how else could you know they are wrong?

As you appear to be suggesting that one of them had a chance of being correct can you explain why you think that is the case. Can you also explain how that religion you are suggesting knows the answer arrived at it.

Again with the strawmen.
In my last post I explicitly pointed out the difference between being right and knowing.
Even if one of the religions were correct, that doesn't mean that they know rather than simply believe.

Just like in the dice example, just because one of the 6th people is right, that doesn't mean they know they are right.

I am saying because we don't know, there is the possibility (i.e. the chance) that at least one claim about what happens in an afterlife is correct.
That isn't me saying they are correct. That isn't me saying that they know. That is simply me saying there isn't enough information to determine if they are right or wrong.
This is in contrast to you who claims they are wrong.

Unless you know what happens, you cannot know that they are wrong.