What do you think about gun control laws?

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Themightykabool

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #570 on: August 12, 2024, 06:10:09 AM »
I wouldn't use the argument that guns are useful to prevent tyranny. The evidence that guns are useful for self-defense is overwhelming: dozens of Gary-Kleck-like studies. The evidence that guns help against tyranny is conflicting anecdotes.



Kleck is thorughly debunked.
By the same methodology a large portion of males can fight and win afainst a grizzly, compete in the ufc, drive better, and coach the super bowl.

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FlatAssembler

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #571 on: August 12, 2024, 08:34:35 AM »
I wouldn't use the argument that guns are useful to prevent tyranny. The evidence that guns are useful for self-defense is overwhelming: dozens of Gary-Kleck-like studies. The evidence that guns help against tyranny is conflicting anecdotes.



Kleck is thorughly debunked.
By the same methodology a large portion of males can fight and win afainst a grizzly, compete in the ufc, drive better, and coach the super bowl.
And what do you think is happening in the Gary-Kleck-like studies?
Do you think that it's massive telescoping, that people are misremembering events that occurred eight years ago as if they occurred less than a year ago? Gary Kleck responds to that objection in his study by citing a study showing that people on average tend to remember events that occurred 14 months ago as if they occurred less than a year ago, not events that occurred 8 years ago. Now, you might argue that defensive gun uses are very stressful events so that telescoping would be much greater, but to say it would increase the number by 8 times (which would be if the NCVS study is right)... That's just a weird assertion, not to mention obviously ad-hoc.
Do you think that people are dreaming that they are using guns in self-defense and are mistaking those dreams for reality? That seems rather implausible to me. To me, it usually happens the other way around: I sometimes remember real events as if they were dreams. Is it different when you don't have a psychotic disorder?
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Themightykabool

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #572 on: August 12, 2024, 09:04:10 AM »
Its all in the question.
Did you feel safer?
Vs
Ddi you draw your gun?



KleckQ1:   do you have a gun?
SruveeA1:  yes
KleckQ2:  did you ever feel threatened?
SurveyeeA2:  yes
KleckQ3:   did you feel safer because you had a gun?
SurveyeeA3:   yes


5000surveyed.
Extroplate to the number of guns x population mathmathmath = 2.5M self defense/y!



Mmmm ...



Amazing.









In a pervious talk here (with that mental guy from east euorpe qho wantesd a fully auto gun for self defense) i eyeballed it using convenience store hold ups because those would get the proper police reporting.

Concluaoon:   Kleck study is grossly flawed with error bars ranging from 50,000-5M to the absurdity of having zero realiable conclusivity



« Last Edit: August 12, 2024, 09:10:36 AM by Themightykabool »

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Themightykabool

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #573 on: September 13, 2024, 08:49:18 AM »

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markjo

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #574 on: September 13, 2024, 01:06:46 PM »
The teen “heard the driver say, ‘Oh s–t, my gun went off,’” according to the arrest report.
Rule number one of handling a gun: never point your gun at something (or someone) that you don't intend to shoot.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Unconvinced

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #575 on: September 13, 2024, 01:37:34 PM »
That’s rule 2.

Rule 1 is don’t buy a gun unless you intend to shoot something (or someone).

Well, that’s my rule.  It’s not endorsed by the NRA or gun manufacturers.

In no other developed democracy do people feel they need to own a gun to be safe.  It’s not just the gun laws that are a problem, it’s the gun culture.  Particularly the paranoia peddled by the gun lobbyists that you’l be raped and murdered in your home if you don’t have one.

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Themightykabool

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #576 on: September 13, 2024, 01:53:46 PM »
usa logic - better to shoot an innocent person by accident than to maybe let a bad person go.

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Themightykabool

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #577 on: September 13, 2024, 01:58:19 PM »
USA logic should say all trump rallies now REQUIRE everyone to be packing

nothing safer than an angry mob of 100-200 (biggest crowds) who all have shooter-guns.

because when a lonewolf-fed-coerced-sniper takes 10min to climb a roof and get into position, the secret-service agents are 10min-08sec to return fire (play on police are only 2min away for those not paying attention).

maga hats should have a tedcruz gun signing party.
i wonder if he'll show up or be in mexico.

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markjo

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #578 on: September 13, 2024, 02:39:46 PM »
That’s rule 2.

Rule 1 is don’t buy a gun unless you intend to shoot something (or someone).
Ummm...  No.  You don't necessarily need to buy or own a gun to handle it. 
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Themightykabool

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #579 on: September 13, 2024, 04:19:27 PM »
Rule 1 is trwr all gun loaded
Rule 2 dont point it

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #580 on: September 13, 2024, 06:07:08 PM »
Rule 1: CONTROL YOUR GUN
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Unconvinced

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #581 on: September 14, 2024, 09:06:10 AM »
That’s rule 2.

Rule 1 is don’t buy a gun unless you intend to shoot something (or someone).
Ummm...  No.  You don't necessarily need to buy or own a gun to handle it.

Yeah, yeah.  My point is about why so many Americans feel they need a gun in the first place. 


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FlatAssembler

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #582 on: December 21, 2024, 02:03:08 PM »
I've made a new video against gun control:
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Themightykabool

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #583 on: December 21, 2024, 02:34:16 PM »
Nonsense built on assumption.

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FlatAssembler

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #584 on: December 22, 2024, 06:30:08 AM »
Nonsense built on assumption.

I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean by that.
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FlatAssembler

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #585 on: December 22, 2024, 07:53:00 AM »
And here we go, after the mass stabbing at a primary school Prečko in Zagreb, media are blaming the mass stabbing on the fact that the attacker had schizophrenia. Most of the articles, as far as I can see, don't even mention the fact that the vast majority of mentally ill people aren't violent. Much less that violence is hardly explicable as a result of mental illness. I don't know how it is for the people who commit mass stabbings, but around 80% of people who commit mass shootings have no diagnozed mental illness. And of those 20% that do, the most common mental illness is mild anxiety disorder. The mere suggestion that the relationship is causal seems ridiculous. How can a mild anxiety disorder cause somebody to commit a mass shooting or a mass stabbing? The media are the reason there is so much discrimination against mentally ill people.
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Themightykabool

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #586 on: December 22, 2024, 12:15:00 PM »
So you agree with redflag laws.




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Themightykabool

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #587 on: December 22, 2024, 12:17:18 PM »
Nonsense built on assumption.

I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean by that.


Your conclusion of dgu is nonsenae because its based on assumptions.


Klecks study has error bars that exceed the study's practical range it is ridiculous to draw any conclusion from it.

It basically asserts:
If 1,000people feel safer with a gun, based on a guided survey with no clear or discernable factual or verifiable statments, then by logical extrapolation there were 5M dgu.


Hows that sound?
« Last Edit: December 22, 2024, 12:20:56 PM by Themightykabool »

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Themightykabool

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #588 on: January 03, 2025, 07:34:31 PM »
bloopbloop pewpew

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Themightykabool

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #589 on: January 03, 2025, 07:37:04 PM »
Quote from: Themightykabool
What specific question did he ask to determine dgu?
Presumably he asked "Did you use a gun in self-defence in the past year?" and I know he asked "Have you actually seen the attacker, rather than merely having heard a suspicious noise?". And if the respondents say "yes" to those two questions, then he asked "Was the gun actually fired?" (to which around 20% of respondents said yes) and "Do you think you would have died if you didn't have a gun?" (to which around 16% of respondents said yes).
Quote from: Themightykabool
Why telescope up but not down?
Because that's how studies show telescoping works: people, on average, tend to remember events which occurred 14 months ago as if they occurred less than a year ago.
Quote from: Themightykabool
How reliable is a data pool of 5,000 and was that from a gun county or from a non gun county?
I am not sure what you mean. By dialing a random number on a telephone, you get people from all over the US.

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Themightykabool

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #590 on: January 03, 2025, 08:38:08 PM »
Quote from: Themightykabool
What specific question did he ask to determine dgu?
Presumably he asked "Did you use a gun in self-defence in the past year?" and I know he asked "Have you actually seen the attacker, rather than merely having heard a suspicious noise?". And if the respondents say "yes" to those two questions, then he asked "Was the gun actually fired?" (to which around 20% of respondents said yes) and "Do you think you would have died if you didn't have a gun?" (to which around 16% of respondents said yes).
Quote from: Themightykabool
Why telescope up but not down?
Because that's how studies show telescoping works: people, on average, tend to remember events which occurred 14 months ago as if they occurred less than a year ago.
Quote from: Themightykabool
How reliable is a data pool of 5,000 and was that from a gun county or from a non gun county?
I am not sure what you mean. By dialing a random number on a telephone, you get people from all over the US.





Quote
what was asked?

you would presume.
and you would be wrong.

kleck pg13
what is a throat clearing question?  - priming the bias of the responder and how they feel about cops and tough on crime (table 4).
and then followed up with did you [feel] you used your gun for self protection? - well obvious if they feel it was for protection then they feel they were protecting themselves.

kleckpg14:  story relevance:
1 involved a human, not animal and the respondent was not in security/ service.
2 an actual person, not just a noise.
3 defender could state a specific crime.
4 gun was actually used in some way.

so without knowing the flow of the conversation, i assume the above was guided by table 3 guideline:
and we note B home and C rob-theft-burg-trespass-assault.
if i feel threatened i will assume they're going to rob me or assault me to rob me.
well similarly that is a valid feeling, but is in no way a valid claim.
plenty of people shot last few years for knocking on the wrong door.

and suspiciously E no threat nearly half the time.


i would give you 50% error bars.
like i said a few years ago here, a more realistic survey would be to rate convenience store robberies and successes of gun-no gun and magnitude-population.












Quote
telescoping, location and sample?

kleck pg13 we also oversampled within contacted households for males, who are more likely to own guns and to be victims of crimes in which victims might use guns defensivley.  Data were later weighted for oversampling

so the calls weren't completely random...
so they've been "randomly" selected to be from, poorer neighbourhoods and male (cuts the population in half right there - did kleck include the females in his telescoping?).

so back table 4 64%respondants are <44,999$anual.
if the bottom 50% make up 50% of the population, we cut that 50 male/female by another 50 poor/mid-upper.



survey was also done by florida.
i would wager the interviewers were they biased.



kleck paper:

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6853&context=jclc



the title says it all:  extreme overestimates

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6936&context=jclc





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FlatAssembler

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #591 on: January 03, 2025, 10:30:21 PM »
Quote from: Themightykabool
What specific question did he ask to determine dgu?
Presumably he asked "Did you use a gun in self-defence in the past year?" and I know he asked "Have you actually seen the attacker, rather than merely having heard a suspicious noise?". And if the respondents say "yes" to those two questions, then he asked "Was the gun actually fired?" (to which around 20% of respondents said yes) and "Do you think you would have died if you didn't have a gun?" (to which around 16% of respondents said yes).
Quote from: Themightykabool
Why telescope up but not down?
Because that's how studies show telescoping works: people, on average, tend to remember events which occurred 14 months ago as if they occurred less than a year ago.
Quote from: Themightykabool
How reliable is a data pool of 5,000 and was that from a gun county or from a non gun county?
I am not sure what you mean. By dialing a random number on a telephone, you get people from all over the US.





Quote
what was asked?

you would presume.
and you would be wrong.

kleck pg13
what is a throat clearing question?  - priming the bias of the responder and how they feel about cops and tough on crime (table 4).
and then followed up with did you [feel] you used your gun for self protection? - well obvious if they feel it was for protection then they feel they were protecting themselves.

kleckpg14:  story relevance:
1 involved a human, not animal and the respondent was not in security/ service.
2 an actual person, not just a noise.
3 defender could state a specific crime.
4 gun was actually used in some way.

so without knowing the flow of the conversation, i assume the above was guided by table 3 guideline:
and we note B home and C rob-theft-burg-trespass-assault.
if i feel threatened i will assume they're going to rob me or assault me to rob me.
well similarly that is a valid feeling, but is in no way a valid claim.
plenty of people shot last few years for knocking on the wrong door.

and suspiciously E no threat nearly half the time.


i would give you 50% error bars.
like i said a few years ago here, a more realistic survey would be to rate convenience store robberies and successes of gun-no gun and magnitude-population.












Quote
telescoping, location and sample?

kleck pg13 we also oversampled within contacted households for males, who are more likely to own guns and to be victims of crimes in which victims might use guns defensivley.  Data were later weighted for oversampling

so the calls weren't completely random...
so they've been "randomly" selected to be from, poorer neighbourhoods and male (cuts the population in half right there - did kleck include the females in his telescoping?).

so back table 4 64%respondants are <44,999$anual.
if the bottom 50% make up 50% of the population, we cut that 50 male/female by another 50 poor/mid-upper.



survey was also done by florida.
i would wager the interviewers were they biased.



kleck paper:

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6853&context=jclc



the title says it all:  extreme overestimates

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6936&context=jclc






My friend, are you implying that the NCVS study is telling the truth that there around 100'000 DGUs in the US per year? Then you will need to find an explanation as to how can Gary-Kleck-like studies suffer from an error of around 8 times. Oversampling and telescoping don't explain even an error of around 2 times, much less 8 times. Besides, what about the Gary-Kleck-like studies with slightly different methodology? It's difficult to see how they could all suffer from oversampling.
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Themightykabool

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #592 on: January 03, 2025, 11:51:52 PM »
what?

selective sampling and extreme extrapoloation is nonsense!

100,000 is way LESS than 2,500,0000

like i said
the magnitude of the error bars is spectacularly hillarious that in no way yields any plausible result.

oh wait, i-the-not-smart-person didn't say it, the actual smart people like hemenway said it, in a published paper no less.




using kleck logic,

we got jack, me, unco, marko, flatass, data/ timisies vs johnD, wise, sceppy, turbo, bulma, tomB
one could telescope that 50-50% of the world population believes the world is flat given the active surveyed experienece here in this forum.
does that make sense?

and gthey feeeeeel the earht is flat because they felt threatened.




if a white person (of the 70%surveyed) were a white cop, how many do you think "i feared for my life" would be relevant?



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FlatAssembler

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #593 on: January 04, 2025, 10:47:24 AM »
what?

selective sampling and extreme extrapoloation is nonsense!

100,000 is way LESS than 2,500,0000

like i said
the magnitude of the error bars is spectacularly hillarious that in no way yields any plausible result.

oh wait, i-the-not-smart-person didn't say it, the actual smart people like hemenway said it, in a published paper no less.




using kleck logic,

we got jack, me, unco, marko, flatass, data/ timisies vs johnD, wise, sceppy, turbo, bulma, tomB
one could telescope that 50-50% of the world population believes the world is flat given the active surveyed experienece here in this forum.
does that make sense?

and gthey feeeeeel the earht is flat because they felt threatened.




if a white person (of the 70%surveyed) were a white cop, how many do you think "i feared for my life" would be relevant?
Look, if you are going to claim NCVS study is telling the truth and that Gary-Kleck-like studies are giant overestimates, then make up some seemingly-plausible explanation of how all Gary-Kleck-like studies are massive overestimates. The problem of oversampling might explain away the Gary Kleck's 1995 study, but it doesn't explain away more than a dozen of Gary-Kleck-like studies with slightly different methodologies. The idea that the Gary-Kleck-like studies all suffer from massive telescoping is way more plausible than saying that they all suffer from massive oversampling.
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Themightykabool

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #594 on: January 04, 2025, 07:20:16 PM »
How oh how could all the studies be weog?

How?
Its not like theres a billion dollar industry capable of influencing the scotus and literally changing meanings of words.

Mmmm
How?




How did sugar, tobaco and big oil all manage to make papers and sway public opinion?

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FlatAssembler

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #595 on: January 06, 2025, 06:15:32 AM »
How oh how could all the studies be weog?

How?
Its not like theres a billion dollar industry capable of influencing the scotus and literally changing meanings of words.

Mmmm
How?




How did sugar, tobaco and big oil all manage to make papers and sway public opinion?

I must admit I don't see the connection here.

Big sugar and big dairy are rejecting everything we know about physiology with arguments such as "Here are some dubious statistics which suggest that the sugar intake in the US reached its peak somewhere in the 1990s and has been falling ever since, while the type-2-diabetes rates continue to rise." or "Here are some dubious statistics which suggest that the saturated fat intake in the US reached its peak somewhere in the 1970s and has been falling ever since, while the heart disease rates continue to rise.". They are trying to use epidemiology to contradict much harder sciences. Pro-gun people aren't doing anything like that. If anything, it's the anti-gun people who are doing that when they are doing cross-country comparisons in spite of there being much better studies.

Big oil generally claims that global warming is somehow natural, but they never provide a mathematical model explaining how it could work. They are making ad-hoc hypotheses. Just like anti-gun people when they are claiming Gary-Kleck-like studies all suffer from massive oversampling or telescoping.

I am not familiar with the arguments that the big tobacco is making.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2025, 07:16:55 AM by FlatAssembler »
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Jura-Glenlivet II

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #596 on: January 06, 2025, 07:50:34 AM »

Surely the main statistic is that countries with low gun deaths are those with low gun ownership and strict control (The UK, Japan), whereas those with high gun ownership and laxer rules have the higher death rates (The US, Brazil).
Life is meaningless and everything dies.

Every man makes a god of his own desire

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Themightykabool

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #597 on: January 06, 2025, 08:40:53 AM »
Shirley, you cant be Joking.

How and Why does one convince a SCOTUS to rewrite the constitution?



Hi, Joking.
Im Dad.

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Jura-Glenlivet II

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #598 on: January 06, 2025, 08:56:32 AM »

It’s just a bit depressing seeing the US and gun-babies in general, flexing in front of the mirror, in their camo and facepaint, and when it all came down to the wire at the capitol building, or in just about any war they’re involved in, it all goes tits up.

Meanwhile the death-rate for civilians and children rises, fuck-wits!
Life is meaningless and everything dies.

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Themightykabool

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Re: What do you think about gun control laws?
« Reply #599 on: January 06, 2025, 12:26:22 PM »
Ok so lets think of how accurate self reported "polling" is on this survey (ignoring previous mentions of guided questions, selective respondents, and bad extrapolation) - and compare such predictive polling for Hclinton and KHarris wins for potus.