War

You do if you have to kill the terrorist quick and you know he's at home in his apartment, surrounded by innocent people.

So you don’t mind killing the hostages that you’re trying to free?  I’m sure the the families of the dead hostages and innocent bystanders will be happy to hear that.

First of all, "special forces" are not magic. You can't snatch hostages who are kept underground under guard while your information is incomplete.

You can’t rescue hostages after they meet the business end of a 2000lb bomb.

Second, you can't eliminate "all of the terrorists" in any way you envisage. There's a thing called replacement you know. Do you think that if Hamas numbers 10.000, you could win by killing 10.000 terrorists?

Isn’t rescuing the hostages supposed to be the first priority?  After the hostages are freed, you can go after the rest of the terrorists at your leisure. 

One thing nobody seems to want to talk about is what motivates the terrorists in the first place.  Essentially saying that Palestine doesn’t have a right to exist and treating the Palestinians like crap in what little territory they do have doesn’t do much to help the situation.

Quote from: Torve on October 12, 2025, 08:15:22 AM

First of all, "special forces" are not magic. You can't snatch hostages who are kept underground under guard while your information is incomplete.

You can’t rescue hostages after they meet the business end of a 2000lb bomb.

Please leave the straw man alone, he's done nothing to you.

Quote from: Torve on October 12, 2025, 08:15:22 AM

Second, you can't eliminate "all of the terrorists" in any way you envisage. There's a thing called replacement you know. Do you think that if Hamas numbers 10.000, you could win by killing 10.000 terrorists?

Isn’t rescuing the hostages supposed to be the first priority?  After the hostages are freed, you can go after the rest of the terrorists at your leisure. 

You don't HAVE  a solution for rescuing the hostages. And "the rest of the terrorists" is practically infinite, there is such a thing as replacement you know.

What you are essentially proposing is a war of attrition with no end. Kudos.

What’s the alternative, sacrifice the hostages in a war of genocide?

Quote from: Torve on October 11, 2025, 12:48:31 PM

What would you consider proportional?

Surgical strikes against the terrorists by elite troops probably would have been more effective and a lot less expensive.

That's hard to do when they use people as human shields and force them to stay in a building during a known incoming airstrike so as to protect their caches for the purpose of doing one of two things, (1) deter the attackers, (2)if deterrence fails, claim they are committing a genocide from the deaths of the civilians they forced to remain as human shields

Quote from: markjo on October 11, 2025, 01:49:44 PM

Quote from: Torve on October 11, 2025, 12:48:31 PM

What would you consider proportional?

Surgical strikes against the terrorists by elite troops probably would have been more effective and a lot less expensive.

That's hard to do when they use people as human shields and force them to stay in a building during a known incoming airstrike so as to protect their caches for the purpose of doing one of two things, (1) deter the attackers, (2)if deterrence fails, claim they are committing a genocide from the deaths of the civilians they forced to remain as human shields

I never said that it would be easy.  That’s why special forces train for hostage rescue and counter terrorism, so you don’t need to call in air strikes.

Sending in an elite 12man crew to inflitrate an enitre city.

Movies were made ofnsuch ideas.

Impossible.


And also goes tobshow how bad faithed the war is.

You guys are right, kill ‘em all and let God sort ‘em out.

You guys are right, kill ‘em all and let God sort ‘em out.

Your abuse of the straw man is becoming a pattern.

The point here is that this nice way of treating Hamas that some imagine exists actually doesn't.

Quote from: Torve on October 11, 2025, 02:34:09 PM

How do you free hostages with surgical strikes?

What do you think special forces are for?

This works when you know where the hostages are being kept, and it is either not heavily guarded or it is possible to sneak in and get them.
That does not apply in this case.

So you don’t mind killing the hostages that you’re trying to free?  I’m sure the the families of the dead hostages and innocent bystanders will be happy to hear that.

Some may.
Some would prefer for their loved ones to be dead, than to be held hostage by such scum.

One thing nobody seems to want to talk about is what motivates the terrorists in the first place.

One big factor is Islam, saying Jihad is for them.

Unless you are trying to suggest the way out is for Israel to completely surrender to these terrorists and leave?

Quote from: Lorddave on October 12, 2025, 08:06:26 AM

You do if you have to kill the terrorist quick and you know he's at home in his apartment, surrounded by innocent people.

So you don’t mind killing the hostages that you’re trying to free?  I’m sure the the families of the dead hostages and innocent bystanders will be happy to hear that.

I'm mainly referring to the time Trump blew up an apartment building to kill one guy.  I certainly don't agree with it.

Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Quote from: markjo on October 12, 2025, 12:32:55 PM

You guys are right, kill ‘em all and let God sort ‘em out.

Your abuse of the straw man is becoming a pattern.

The point here is that this nice way of treating Hamas that some imagine exists actually doesn't.

Was marko trying to get the proisraels crowd here to admit that savung hostages was never the point?

The point here is that this nice way of treating Hamas that some imagine exists actually doesn't.

I’m not saying that Hamas should be treated nice.  I’m saying that Hamas is not the sum total of the Palestinian people. 

This works when you know where the hostages are being kept, and it is either not heavily guarded or it is possible to sneak in and get them.
That does not apply in this case.

What do you think the intelligence agencies are for?

Some would prefer for their loved ones to be dead, than to be held hostage by such scum.

I would suspect the the vast majority would prefer their loved ones returned home alive.

Unless you are trying to suggest the way out is for Israel to completely surrender to these terrorists and leave?

I am suggesting that Israel and the Palestinians get together and figure out a way to live together in such a way that they don’t want to keep killing each other.

I am suggesting that Israel and the Palestinians get together and figure out a way to live together in such a way that they don’t want to keep killing each other.

Would you suggest the same to Britain and Germany in 1940?

Quote from: markjo on October 12, 2025, 04:38:04 PM

I am suggesting that Israel and the Palestinians get together and figure out a way to live together in such a way that they don’t want to keep killing each other.

Would you suggest the same to Britain and Germany in 1940?

Yes.

Quote from: Torve on October 12, 2025, 12:41:34 PM

The point here is that this nice way of treating Hamas that some imagine exists actually doesn't.

I’m not saying that Hamas should be treated nice.  I’m saying that Hamas is not the sum total of the Palestinian people. 

This is sophistry, but I accept my own post was imprecise.

To dig out the evil, hard action is necessary. There is not always an option available that spares the innocent. In this case people keep pleading for some option that is rarely put into words. You did try and you deserve credit for that. To many people it seems obvious that Hamas must be destroyed utterly. Perhaps you are not one of those people, who knows. To achieve that end it is unrealistic to expect anything other than widescale destruction and suffering.

To achieve that end it is unrealistic to expect anything other than widescale destruction and suffering.

Also ethnic cleansing.

Its alright.
Europe will take all the displaced refugees, again.

Springtime for Israel, and Netanyahu, winter for Germany and France.

Hamburg 1943.

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-gaza-displacement-trigger-refugees-europe

1. Israel should take the refugees they create with their bombing campaign, its not fair to expect Europe to take them.

2. If they are dangerous terrorists that Israel can't take as refugees then why should Europe take them?

3. Israel is acting like the Nazis who they claim are purely and ontologically evil.

3. Israel is acting like the Nazis who they claim are purely and ontologically evil.

No they're acting like Bomber Command.

Actually not nearly as horrific.

Up to 40,000 people died in Hamburg over a couple of days.

How many people have died in Gaza in 2 years?

To dig out the evil, hard action is necessary. There is not always an option available that spares the innocent.

Isn’t there some Bible passage about God sparing an otherwise evil town for the sake of a few good men who live there?

How many people have died in Gaza in 2 years?

How many hostages were freed in those 2 years?

Quote from: Torve on October 12, 2025, 04:46:50 PM

To dig out the evil, hard action is necessary. There is not always an option available that spares the innocent.

Isn’t there some Bible passage about God sparing an otherwise evil town for the sake of a few good men who live there?

Too bad this isn't happening in fantasy land.

Quote from: Torve on October 12, 2025, 05:56:31 PM

How many people have died in Gaza in 2 years?

How many hostages were freed in those 2 years?

I could look it up. Are you making a serious point?

Quote from: markjo on October 12, 2025, 07:14:38 PM

Quote from: Torve on October 12, 2025, 05:56:31 PM

How many people have died in Gaza in 2 years?

How many hostages were freed in those 2 years?

I could look it up. Are you making a serious point?

Sure.  I’d like to see the dead Gazan to rescued hostage ratio.

Sure.  I’d like to see the dead Gazan to rescued hostage ratio.

That's what AIs are for. Make use of your internet.

Up to 40,000 people died in Hamburg over a couple of days.

Right, and it was awful. I dont see how past atrocities justify present atrocities.

Quote from: Torve on October 12, 2025, 04:46:50 PM

To dig out the evil, hard action is necessary. There is not always an option available that spares the innocent.

Isn’t there some Bible passage about God sparing an otherwise evil town for the sake of a few good men who live there?

Never ask a jew to read the Tanakh.
[edit][/edit]

Too bad this isn't happening in fantasy land.

It used to claim it was "christian" until you quoted the Tanakh to it.

Quote from: Torve on October 12, 2025, 05:56:31 PM

Up to 40,000 people died in Hamburg over a couple of days.

Right, and it was awful. I dont see how past atrocities justify present atrocities.

I wasn't justifying, I was trying to gain some perspective.

Ok.

A far better historical example for what the Jews are doing to the Palestinians for comparison is the Holocaust.