War

Quote from: Lorddave on October 09, 2025, 11:11:17 PM

Yeah... That's not what uncivilized means.

Like many words, it has multiple meanings which can vary on the context.
For example, uncivilised includes the following:
"not socially, culturally, or morally advanced." where it is unclear if that requires all, or just one.
Committing acts of terror like that certainly means they are NOT morally advanced.

Quote from: Lorddave on October 09, 2025, 11:11:17 PM

If anything, Hamas is more civilized than Nazi Germany.

And there you go with another pathetic, dishonest comparison.
We are not comparing Hamas with Nazi Germany.
You were trying to compare them to post WWII Germany, pre-unification Germany.

You really are just looking for any pathetic excuse to pretend Hamas is abhorrent aren't you?

Should we not be comparing them to irish NRA?

Should we not be comparing them to irish NRA?

I'm not sure Ireland has a National Rifle Association.

Quote from: Themightykabool on October 10, 2025, 06:23:51 AM

Should we not be comparing them to irish NRA?

I'm not sure Ireland has a National Rifle Association.

It's called the Irish Rifle Association (IRA)

What makes you think I fully support them?

Mainly from the long conversation we had on this thread some time ago about Isreal’s many obvious war crimes, and your defence of them.

What do you call a country that agrees to a ceasefire but doesn't stop firing?

Quote from: JimmyTheLobster on October 10, 2025, 09:01:13 AM

Quote from: Themightykabool on October 10, 2025, 06:23:51 AM

Should we not be comparing them to irish NRA?

I'm not sure Ireland has a National Rifle Association.

It's called the Irish Rifle Association (IRA)

Ha!  Always wondered what that stood for.

Been a while since we had to worry about them blowing shit up.

How we managed that without flattening half of Belfast is a complete mystery.

Same reason Americans justify their hatred of gays or transgenders with religion

i.e. because their religion condemns homosexuality and says they are worthy of death?
Guess what? Other people cherry picking and ignoring that part doesn't mean the religion doesn't command it.
Imagine if instead the Bible clearly said something like: "There is absolutely nothing wrong with homosexuality; homosexuals should be embraced just like any other person in society, not being penalised for their sexual preference."
Do you think they could still use their religion like that?
I don't.

Remember, Muslims weren't killing Jews for no reason before 1945.  We're they?

Sure they were, just not as much because they weren't there.
But Islam has been violent since the time of Mohammed.

Why does it have to be one or other other?  Why can't they both just let eachother exist as their own nations?

Hamas has made it clear they have absolutely no interest in allowing that.
That only way that would ever be possible is if a government of Palestine was elected by the people, and proceeded to prosecute and execute all members of Hamas for acts of terrorism.

Also, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.  History has shown that all too often.

You mean people will ignore acts of terrorism because they lack morals, and instead claim they are just freedom fighters.
Hamas are not freedom fighters. They are terrorists. Anyone pretending otherwise lacks morals.

There's no such thing as Islamic terrorism in the true sense.

Then why are there so many Islamic terrorists, including those using Islam to justify there terrorism.
Don't you remember ISIS?

It isn't that hard to realise that there are plenty of Islamic terrorists and there is Islamic terrorism.
Islam itself commands it.

What do you think the penalty should be for apostacy?

Whether Muslim, Christian, or Jew, it's all the same. The important thing is to live humanly, regardless of religion.

Or try the sane option - discard those religions as the outdated garbage they are.

There will always be people with mental illness

Like yourself?

The most valuable thing everyone here values, and which should be universally true, is peace.

The problem is people like Hamas don't value that.
And life under Islamic rule is not peace.

Been a while since we had to worry about them blowing shit up.

How we managed that without flattening half of Belfast is a complete mystery.

It's bc of gun control.

Mainly from the long conversation we had on this thread some time ago about Isreal’s many obvious war crimes, and your defence of them.

So, strawmen and leaps of faith?
Just attempts to vilify?
Nothing logical or rational?

Leaps of faith?

That doesn’t even make sense.  No, I just remember some of the stuff you said in previous discussions. It was a while ago though, and I’ve no desire to start digging around for old posts.

So what do you think of Isreal’s actions in the war up to now?  All perfectly fine and justified?  Or did they go a bit far?

Leaps of faith?
That doesn’t even make sense.

Sure it does.
You take me justifying one thing they did (or maybe even several), and use that as "justification" to pretend I fully support everything they have done.

So what do you think of Isreal’s actions in the war up to now?

I haven't really cared enough to pay much attention. It isn't like I have the power to do anything about it.

Quote from: Themightykabool on October 10, 2025, 06:23:51 AM

Should we not be comparing them to irish NRA?

I'm not sure Ireland has a National Rifle Association.

Hahaha correction noted!
IRA


Damit kabool
Get your shit together.

So what do you think of Isreal’s actions in the war up to now?  All perfectly fine and justified?  Or did they go a bit far?

How far would be not too far?

Quote from: Unconvinced on October 10, 2025, 02:41:25 PM

Leaps of faith?
That doesn’t even make sense.

Sure it does.
You take me justifying one thing they did (or maybe even several), and use that as "justification" to pretend I fully support everything they have done.

Quote from: Unconvinced on October 10, 2025, 02:41:25 PM

So what do you think of Isreal’s actions in the war up to now?

I haven't really cared enough to pay much attention. It isn't like I have the power to do anything about it.

Along with you saying that the only solution would be Isreal’s complete annexation of Palestine. 

I had assumed that your opinion was based on you actually following what’s been happening.  Now I know you just didn’t care enough to pay attention.  Thanks.

Along with you saying that the only solution would be Isreal’s complete annexation of Palestine.

Which still doesn't necessarily include everything they have done.
So why claim I think everything they have done is fine?

I had assumed that your opinion was based on you actually following what’s been happening.  Now I know you just didn’t care enough to pay attention.  Thanks.

I have followed along enough to have my opinion and that to be based in fact.
But I also know that I don't know everything so I wont be making bold statements about everything.
Do you know literally everything Israel has done during this conflict?

Quote from: Unconvinced on October 10, 2025, 11:36:11 PM

Along with you saying that the only solution would be Isreal’s complete annexation of Palestine.

Which still doesn't necessarily include everything they have done.
So why claim I think everything they have done is fine?

Quote from: Unconvinced on October 10, 2025, 11:36:11 PM

I had assumed that your opinion was based on you actually following what’s been happening.  Now I know you just didn’t care enough to pay attention.  Thanks.

I have followed along enough to have my opinion and that to be based in fact.
But I also know that I don't know everything so I wont be making bold statements about everything.
Do you know literally everything Israel has done during this conflict?

Not talking about dissecting every individual incident, but Israel’s overall conduct in the last two years of their war against Hamas.

The war that’s reduced Gaza to a smoking wasteland; the tens of thousands of mostly civilians, women and children confirmed dead with God knows how many more buried under the rubble; the vast destruction of civilian infrastructure and agricultural land; the blocking of humanitarian aid, targeting of (or at the very least disregard for) hospitals, journalists, first responders, etc, etc.

The dead, the starving and the homeless.

Whether all that death, destruction and suffering was proportional to the threat that Hamas posed following their terrorist attack, given Isreal’s overwhelming military superiority.

And now, after everything that’s happened, your idea of a solution is for Israel to completely annex Palestine?  Even as we gradually inch towards a possible peace deal.

Quote from: JackBlack on October 11, 2025, 02:09:59 AM

Quote from: Unconvinced on October 10, 2025, 11:36:11 PM

Along with you saying that the only solution would be Isreal’s complete annexation of Palestine.

Which still doesn't necessarily include everything they have done.
So why claim I think everything they have done is fine?

Quote from: Unconvinced on October 10, 2025, 11:36:11 PM

I had assumed that your opinion was based on you actually following what’s been happening.  Now I know you just didn’t care enough to pay attention.  Thanks.

I have followed along enough to have my opinion and that to be based in fact.
But I also know that I don't know everything so I wont be making bold statements about everything.
Do you know literally everything Israel has done during this conflict?

Not talking about dissecting every individual incident, but Israel’s overall conduct in the last two years of their war against Hamas.

The war that’s reduced Gaza to a smoking wasteland; the tens of thousands of mostly civilians, women and children confirmed dead with God knows how many more buried under the rubble; the vast destruction of civilian infrastructure and agricultural land; the blocking of humanitarian aid, targeting of (or at the very least disregard for) hospitals, journalists, first responders, etc, etc.

The dead, the starving and the homeless.

Whether all that death, destruction and suffering was proportional to the threat that Hamas posed following their terrorist attack, given Isreal’s overwhelming military superiority.

What would you consider proportional?

What would you consider proportional?

Surgical strikes against the terrorists by elite troops probably would have been more effective and a lot less expensive.

Quote from: Torve on October 11, 2025, 12:48:31 PM

What would you consider proportional?

Surgical strikes against the terrorists by elite troops probably would have been more effective and a lot less expensive.

Effective how? In pursuit of what goal?

Quote from: markjo on October 11, 2025, 01:49:44 PM

Quote from: Torve on October 11, 2025, 12:48:31 PM

What would you consider proportional?

Surgical strikes against the terrorists by elite troops probably would have been more effective and a lot less expensive.

Effective how? In pursuit of what goal?

Killing terrorists and freeing hostages, of course.  Wasn’t that supposed to be the goal from the start?

Quote from: Torve on October 11, 2025, 02:08:44 PM

Quote from: markjo on October 11, 2025, 01:49:44 PM

Quote from: Torve on October 11, 2025, 12:48:31 PM

What would you consider proportional?

Surgical strikes against the terrorists by elite troops probably would have been more effective and a lot less expensive.

Effective how? In pursuit of what goal?

Killing terrorists and freeing hostages, of course.  Wasn’t that supposed to be the goal from the start?

How do you free hostages with surgical strikes?

And no, "killing terrorists" is not a reasonable goal. Which terrorists? How many? For how long? What are the victory conditions?

Not talking about dissecting every individual incident, but Israel’s overall conduct in the last two years of their war against Hamas.

And you take me defending them at the start to mean I fully support them.

And now, after everything that’s happened, your idea of a solution is for Israel to completely annex Palestine?  Even as we gradually inch towards a possible peace deal.

Yes.
Because while Palestine and Israel exist as 2 separately governed regions, there will not be peace.
There may be temporary peace, but it will not last long.

Surgical strikes against the terrorists by elite troops probably would have been more effective and a lot less expensive.

I doubt it.
You have the complication of organising and carrying out such strikes, and the number required given how spread out Hamas is, and getting the intelligence to carry them out.

What would have been more effective and a lot less expensive would be condemned by almost everyone.

What were the goals?
Allowing yourself to be attacked, to enrage the popation and unite against a foe and consolidate sweeping overreach powers.

Mmmmmm we talking 911, BLM, or oct07, reichatag?

Allowing yourself to be attacked, to enrage the popation and unite against a foe and consolidate sweeping overreach powers.

Mmmmmm we talking 911

I didn't know you thought 9/11 was a false flag done in order to justify wars in the Middle East and consolidate sweeping overreach powers.

Well there you go.

Not a full false flag.
But it was a permittable collateral damage.

How do you free hostages with surgical strikes?

What do you think special forces are for?

And no, "killing terrorists" is not a reasonable goal. Which terrorists? How many? For how long? What are the victory conditions?

You kill or capture all of the terrorists who captured and/or are holding the hostages until all of the hostages are freed.  Victory is when all of the hostages are free and all of the terrorists responsible are dead or in prison.   You shouldn’t need to level entire cities and kill tens of thousands of innocent women and children to do that, lest you start looking worse than the terrorists.

Quote from: Torve on October 11, 2025, 02:34:09 PM

How do you free hostages with surgical strikes?

What do you think special forces are for?

Quote from: Torve on October 11, 2025, 02:34:09 PM

And no, "killing terrorists" is not a reasonable goal. Which terrorists? How many? For how long? What are the victory conditions?

You kill or capture all of the terrorists who captured and/or are holding the hostages until all of the hostages are freed.  Victory is when all of the hostages are free and all of the terrorists responsible are dead or in prison.   You shouldn’t need to level entire cities and kill tens of thousands of innocent women and children to do that, lest you start looking worse than the terrorists.

You do if you have to kill the terrorist quick and you know he's at home in his apartment, surrounded by innocent people.

Quote from: Torve on October 11, 2025, 02:34:09 PM

How do you free hostages with surgical strikes?

What do you think special forces are for?

Quote from: Torve on October 11, 2025, 02:34:09 PM

And no, "killing terrorists" is not a reasonable goal. Which terrorists? How many? For how long? What are the victory conditions?

You kill or capture all of the terrorists who captured and/or are holding the hostages until all of the hostages are freed.  Victory is when all of the hostages are free and all of the terrorists responsible are dead or in prison.   You shouldn’t need to level entire cities and kill tens of thousands of innocent women and children to do that, lest you start looking worse than the terrorists.

First of all, "special forces" are not magic. You can't snatch hostages who are kept underground under guard while your information is incomplete.

Second, you can't eliminate "all of the terrorists" in any way you envisage. There's a thing called replacement you know. Do you think that if Hamas numbers 10.000, you could win by killing 10.000 terrorists?