War

Quote

They throw rockets at us and we shoot them down.  What happens when one of them gets through?

This is also my question about Hamas constantly firing rockets at Israel. The iron dome is impressive, but what does it do to people's minds to have rockets flying in their direction all the time? They must wonder "what if one gets through" every time. Or maybe they become used to it. idk

There are technical aspects in modern warfare that I don't think the media conveys very well.  One of them is counter battery fire. 

When a rocket is launched at Israel, not only can they intercept it but they also know exactly where it was launched from and likely return fire immediately. 

So if Israel is concerned about rocket attacks then interception and counter battery fire are probably their most effective options. 

Turning Gaza into a wasteland of rubble and dead children isn't necessary to defend Israel.

Sorry, this was a reply to Jura, and Crouton posted before I did.

You are, for some reason, refusing to engage with my questions, and pretending I don't get your point. I know Israel is the super power in this conflict. I know that they've gone overboard in retaliation. I know that Palestinians were wronged, and have been abused. I think it was a mistake for Israel to try to create an ethnostate, and a mistake to not get the West Bank settlers under control, and treat the Palestinians as citizens. They've made lots of mistakes, and committed their fair share of the atrocities.  They cannot change the past. They're not moving out of Israel.

I do not care how feeble the Hamas rockets are. They continuously fire them at Israel. I know they kill a lot of Palestinians with them. I know they overwhelmed the Iron Dome at one point. I suppose getting hit with a shitty rocket is fine if you are a Jew?

My question is what do you think Israel should do? You think they should have peace talks, but with whom? Who would be the chosen representative of Palestinians? It can't be Hamas leaders, right? I mean they're promising more Oct 7ths, while they live it up in Qatar. Netanyahu needs to be replaced, I think he's facing corruption charges right now. Maybe some other countries need to step in and negotiate ceasefires, hostage releases, and medical and food aid. Nobody trusts the NGOs anymore, and the UN is a joke.

For some reason the end gets cut off.
So in text form...



The discussion is disrupted when one of Maroni's men fires at him. The bullet deflects and instead hits one of the Russian's men. Distressed, Batman takes the injured man to the hospital. Later, he returns the device to Fox, stating: "...It works too well: I'm willing to put my life on the line to do what I have to. But it has to be mine, no one else's."


The preaervation of life should take utmost priority.
So either

Its calous dont care get the job done let God sortm out i got other thigs to do.

Or

its purposeful wih a purpose.



And given they KNEW it brings a whole bunch of 911 inside job/ pearl harbour/ vietnam quiet american -  seems more and more plausible.














Its om the tip of my brain -
The good guy grabs a bad guy hostage and the bad guy leader shoots his own guy because he doesnt care.  (Clarification hamas is not a good guy)
**insert typocal action movie trope
Because thw hostages they care so much about couldve been in any one of those buildings they bombed to shit.
Blowing up buildings doest not normally rssult in rsscuing of hostages.

Sorry, this was a reply to Jura, and Crouton posted before I did.

You are, for some reason, refusing to engage with my questions, and pretending I don't get your point. I know Israel is the super power in this conflict. I know that they've gone overboard in retaliation. I know that Palestinians were wronged, and have been abused. I think it was a mistake for Israel to try to create an ethnostate, and a mistake to not get the West Bank settlers under control, and treat the Palestinians as citizens. They've made lots of mistakes, and committed their fair share of the atrocities.  They cannot change the past. They're not moving out of Israel.

I do not care how feeble the Hamas rockets are. They continuously fire them at Israel. I know they kill a lot of Palestinians with them. I know they overwhelmed the Iron Dome at one point. I suppose getting hit with a shitty rocket is fine if you are a Jew?

My question is what do you think Israel should do? You think they should have peace talks, but with whom? Who would be the chosen representative of Palestinians? It can't be Hamas leaders, right? I mean they're promising more Oct 7ths, while they live it up in Qatar. Netanyahu needs to be replaced, I think he's facing corruption charges right now. Maybe some other countries need to step in and negotiate ceasefires, hostage releases, and medical and food aid. Nobody trusts the NGOs anymore, and the UN is a joke.

Right, you want me to give you a simple way to sort out the middle east and if I can’t then you will feel vindicated in going back to your tacit approval of the Israeli genocide because (seemingly) your introduction to the Palestinian/Israeli conflict was the vile actions of the 7th and those images rightly haunt you.

Yes, you talk to your enemy, Hamas, the Palestinian national Authority, the PLO, the Palestinian scrabble league if it does any good, because if you don’t the cycle of violence will continue, and Jewish civilians will be raped and murdered by bastards and countless Palestinians will be entombed or obliterated by bastards.

And the sad thing is the bastards are in control, from Hamas to Jerusalem, Tehran to Washington, and you are right to ask who do the Israelis talk to, but you never asked who can the Palestinians talk to, I don’t know what your grasp of Israeli politics is but Yitzhak Rabin (then Prime minister) was murdered for support of the Oslo accords, not by Hamas but by the religious right in Israel.
Beforehand, Netanyahu had led a mock funeral procession featuring a coffin and hangman's noose at an anti-Rabin rally where protesters chanted, "Death to Rabin". Several of the parties now in the coalition that bought Nety to power called Rabin a traitor and were vehemently opposed to any concessions to Palestinian rights calling it heresy.

So, there is no easy way, but I know this, the current policy of bombing the Gaza strip back to the stone age may in the short term cull the numbers of Hamas, but in the long run it will swell their ranks and ensure that more innocent Jewish civilians die horribly, because despite your insinuation that I don’t care about them, I care about any innocent deaths whoever they are, and the existing Israeli strategy effectively guarantees more on both sides will die, but considerably more from one side than the other, as has always been the case.   

Türkiye has very advanced drone technology. I've explained this before.

With the set-the-target-and-forget-it technology, semi-artificial intelligence-supported drones can communicate with each other in the air, share targets, and destroy a military unit by attacking it in an organized manner. It's like an army on its own. What you see in the media is a fraction of what actually happens.

Türkiye saved Ukraine from Russian occupation and Karabakh from Armenian occupation with drone technology.

Turkey was not on bad terms with Armenia when it helped Azerbaijan against Armenia, and was on good terms with Russia when it helped Ukraine against Russia.

Turkey is not on good terms with Israel, and moreover, in the Gazza, which Erdogan calls "our red line", Israeli tanks crush dozens of innocents every day, and mass murders of civilians occur with bombs. Strangely enough, Türkiye is not helping Palestine with its drone technology, this is not even discussed!

Erdoğan's note from the sincerity test: Minus infinite. 

It's Turkey!  Say it right, Turk!

Or let's go back to calling it the Ottoman Empire.

This treachery of pushing the umlaut on us will not stand.

Jura, you're so convinced that I approve of "genocide" I think you are unable to have a discussion. I would normally be very interested in your opinions on a given topic, but this is weird. I'm not looking for a simple answer! Or for you to solve the ME's problems. I am looking for conversations, and insight, and other opinions. Every time I post something you become a bit smug and snooty about it. If you don't want to have a discussion, fine. No one is making you.

I said I felt "vengeance" and that it isn't a proper way to feel. You act as if I am hiding this from myself or others. idk  Yes, I felt bloodthirsty after seeing the atrocities that the terrorists posted online. If the Israelis were stupid enough to video themselves committing atrocities and then post them online, I would feel bloodthirsty then, too. I also feel angry at stupid middle class westerners who shout "from the river to the sea" and accuse anyone critical of Hamas of being racist Islamophobes. I feel confused by the fact that Jewish people living in Europe and North America are being targeted at their homes and businesses by angry mobs. I feel frustrated that because of the conflict, people who normally would be against antisemitism, are excusing it.

Anyway, whatever happens we have no fucking control over it. We can't even be sure the media we consume isn't propaganda.

The answer to that question from my narrow perspective is:  It's not my responsibility to figure out their problems.

Picture this, my neighbor asks to borrow my gun, says he has bad blood with a different neighbor who just intentionally ran over one of his kids.  I ask him what he plans to do with it exactly and he tells me he's going to murder at least half of them.

I'm going to say no, come up with a better plan. 

As far as what can be done, Hamas actually released a peace proposal a few weeks ago which basically boils down to establishing the 1967 borders.



Seems reasonable to me.  But as far as I can tell the current government of Israel doesn't want peace and is in fact actively manipulating the situation to make peace impossible. 

The US actually does have the power to stop this.  We could tell them to use the 1967 borders or we're cutting them loose.  That's it.  They have enough firepower to flatten Gaza.  They don't have enough firepower to fend off the entire region.

Jura, you're so convinced that I approve of "genocide" I think you are unable to have a discussion. I would normally be very interested in your opinions on a given topic, but this is weird. I'm not looking for a simple answer! Or for you to solve the ME's problems. I am looking for conversations, and insight, and other opinions. Every time I post something you become a bit smug and snooty about it. If you don't want to have a discussion, fine. No one is making you.

I said I felt "vengeance" and that it isn't a proper way to feel. You act as if I am hiding this from myself or others. idk  Yes, I felt bloodthirsty after seeing the atrocities that the terrorists posted online. If the Israelis were stupid enough to video themselves committing atrocities and then post them online, I would feel bloodthirsty then, too. I also feel angry at stupid middle class westerners who shout "from the river to the sea" and accuse anyone critical of Hamas of being racist Islamophobes. I feel confused by the fact that Jewish people living in Europe and North America are being targeted at their homes and businesses by angry mobs. I feel frustrated that because of the conflict, people who normally would be against antisemitism, are excusing it.

Anyway, whatever happens we have no fucking control over it. We can't even be sure the media we consume isn't propaganda.

Sorry, that is just bullshit!

“You are, for some reason, refusing to engage with my questions, ..My question is what do you think Israel should do?”
“I do feel a certain amount of vengeance that makes it difficult for me to sympathize with the plight of Gaza… I do wonder what everyone thinks Israel is supposed to do about all this.”
“But that still doesn't answer what they should do.”

Three different Spacey quotes, all answered as best as possible under the complicated circumstances by not just me, and then you act like people are not only ignoring the question, but it only applies to one side, as if the Palestinians have no dilemma here. The implication being if Israel stops their relentless pounding of Gaza and a reactive home-made rocket lands somewhere in the Negev, there is no other option other than to raise to the ground a few more apartment blocks and schools!

And the rockets you seem obsessed with.

“I don't think they can just live with constant attacks, even if their iron dome blocks most of it. “
“What would happen if they stopped attacking Israel all the time?”

“I do not care how feeble the Hamas rockets are. They continuously fire them at Israel.
they never stop launching rockets, not even during the truce,”

Again, all answered, all answers ignored and no realisation that retaliatory strikes by Israel do a thousand times the damage as the Gazans don’t have an iron dome, radar or any possible way of dodging laser guided missiles.

And if you feel I’m getting a bit snooty, perhaps it’s the inclusion of the intimation that I am a secret pro Hamas/jew hater with comments like.

“Jura, you want Israel to ceasefire. Do you want Hamas to ceasefire?”

“I suppose getting hit with a shitty rocket is fine if you are a Jew?”

Perhaps stop speed reading peoples posts and look at what they have actually written.

It would make more sense if you quoted all the times you answered, instead of all the times I asked. I don't know, I give up. You go be mad at someone else for awhile! lol

I see that there is an empathy problem here and in the west in general.

I blame Türkiye and the West for not helping Palestine. However, this does not mean that I will ignore possible genocides against the Jews. Unfortunately, a public opinion in this direction is developing in the West and in my country. The solution to the problem can be solved by making empathy for both parties.

Imagine yourself as an Arab living in Gaza. An organization (a terrorist organization or a political organization) is fighting a state and you are told by the state to leave your home and go south. You go south and you get bombed there too. Your near and dear ones die and you become homeless. Staying silent about such a tragedy means that it could happen to any of us tomorrow. States remain silent to this, moreover, the dominant political will still supports these attacks all over the world. They do this either by providing actual support, by secretly sending weapons or supplies, or by not intervening at all. To remain silent in the face of injustice is to tacitly support that injustice.

On the other hand, imagine yourself as a Jew living in the USA or any other country in the West. A state with the same religious beliefs as yours unjustly invades another country and commits genocide, and therefore you live with the worry that you may receive an attack like the Nazis or its crypto form at any moment. Your shop is burned down or an X is marked on your house. The psychology of this must be terrible. I cannot suggest a solution to this, because such a solution does not appear. It does not seem possible to stop this once it starts, as standing in front of such a public opinion will cause similar reactions. "Hey you! Are you in favor of genocide, supporter of Jews?" This style suddenly causes reactions to be directed towards the person calling for common sense. This is a problematic situation.

The main solution for both situations is to end the war as soon as possible and put Netanyahu on trial for the crime of genocide. It is obvious that political wills act in favor of the party committing genocide. It is obvious that they will continue to remain silent or play Don Quixote. They will not produce any real reaction and will cause the public's frenzied anger to escalate. This may be the psychological environment that evil globalists want to create for a new genocide of the Jews. And so there will be no obstacle remain to the world's great reset.

PS for croissant : After the reactions, Google Translate changed the word Turkey to Türkiye. If you want, you can test this translation by translating it twice on Google. Turkey is dead, long live Türkiye! Additionally, the Ottoman kings were fratricides and committed assimilation against the Karamanids, the largest Turkish tribe. I would say also that Ottoman committed genocide to Karamanids, but saying this could cause legal problems in my country, so I don't say so. Look, I didn't say. Fake Turkish history almost worships the Ottoman Empire and does not mention Karamanoğlu much. A race to which more than half of this population belongs has been officially ignored for 500 years. The only difference between what Hitler did to the Jews and what the Ottomans did to the Karamanids is that history writes one of them. Since this is a long historical topic, I won't go into it here. Maybe I'll talk about it at length another time.

It's Turkey!  Say it right, Turk!

Or let's go back to calling it the Ottoman Empire.

This treachery of pushing the umlaut on us will not stand.

i went on a tour

she said it's pronoucned "tur-kee-yeh"

Jura, you're so convinced that I approve of "genocide" I think you are unable to have a discussion. I would normally be very interested in your opinions on a given topic, but this is weird. I'm not looking for a simple answer! Or for you to solve the ME's problems. I am looking for conversations, and insight, and other opinions. Every time I post something you become a bit smug and snooty about it. If you don't want to have a discussion, fine. No one is making you.

I said I felt "vengeance" and that it isn't a proper way to feel. You act as if I am hiding this from myself or others. idk  Yes, I felt bloodthirsty after seeing the atrocities that the terrorists posted online. If the Israelis were stupid enough to video themselves committing atrocities and then post them online, I would feel bloodthirsty then, too. I also feel angry at stupid middle class westerners who shout "from the river to the sea" and accuse anyone critical of Hamas of being racist Islamophobes. I feel confused by the fact that Jewish people living in Europe and North America are being targeted at their homes and businesses by angry mobs. I feel frustrated that because of the conflict, people who normally would be against antisemitism, are excusing it.

Anyway, whatever happens we have no fucking control over it. We can't even be sure the media we consume isn't propaganda.

soooooooo to sumarize

jura mansplained to space why she is wrong.
or
jura attempted to 'solvetheprbolme' tha tspace presented as her-problem when all she was doing was trying resolve her conflicting feelings torwards genocidal vendetta and self defense.

good times good times


also also
as alwasy the female makes life more complicated than it needs tob e























BAHAHHAHAAHAHHAAHAHAH

















also also
babies are dying
sad face

So, sorry to Spacey for being a jerk, I’m probably projecting onto you some of the people I’ve heard that will agree with any amount of crap that the Israeli government will say and do from some sort of ingrained holocaust guilt trip, and that is not me hating Jews, the unfortunate victims and their families of the 7th have my unreserved sympathy as their attackers have my disgust.

Strangely enough, d1's self-destruction leaving only his pure love behind, created a Jesus effect and enabled the spread of his ideas.

Okay Jura, I still want to be bffs. I know this is a touchy subject, but I really have been trying to understand all the opinions on it. I don't expect anyone here to solve the problems, but I am truly interested in everyone's ideas about what they should do differently. I know they should stop bombing the shit out of Gaza, and the civilian toll is horrifying. It's bad, and the leaders and the warmongering defense contractors make it all worse. Politicians make it worse. The media make it worse.

I cannot believe themightykabool just brokered world peace and I understood every word of it! lol

The main solution for both situations is to end the war as soon as possible and put Netanyahu on trial for the crime of genocide. It is obvious that political wills act in favor of the party committing genocide. It is obvious that they will continue to remain silent or play Don Quixote. They will not produce any real reaction and will cause the public's frenzied anger to escalate. This may be the psychological environment that evil globalists want to create for a new genocide of the Jews. And so there will be no obstacle remain to the world's great reset.

wise, I agree that Netanyahu should be tried for war crimes (and all the other crimes he has committed). I wish all the war criminals would be held responsible for their actions. The ones sending others to die as martyrs as they sit in luxury. The war profiteers... all of them. 

Also, Mr Crouton shall become croissant!

I shall photoshop a thin french moustache on my avatar at the nearest possible convenience.

Peace on earth good will to men
Trelalalallalalala
Koombayaya

Much gratitude towards kabool for negotiating this humanitarian pause.

Okay Jura, I still want to be bffs. I know this is a touchy subject, but I really have been trying to understand all the opinions on it. I don't expect anyone here to solve the problems, but I am truly interested in everyone's ideas about what they should do differently. I know they should stop bombing the shit out of Gaza, and the civilian toll is horrifying. It's bad, and the leaders and the warmongering defense contractors make it all worse. Politicians make it worse. The media make it worse.

I cannot believe themightykabool just brokered world peace and I understood every word of it! lol

Quote

The main solution for both situations is to end the war as soon as possible and put Netanyahu on trial for the crime of genocide. It is obvious that political wills act in favor of the party committing genocide. It is obvious that they will continue to remain silent or play Don Quixote. They will not produce any real reaction and will cause the public's frenzied anger to escalate. This may be the psychological environment that evil globalists want to create for a new genocide of the Jews. And so there will be no obstacle remain to the world's great reset.

wise, I agree that Netanyahu should be tried for war crimes (and all the other crimes he has committed). I wish all the war criminals would be held responsible for their actions. The ones sending others to die as martyrs as they sit in luxury. The war profiteers... all of them. 

Also, Mr Crouton shall become croissant!

Funny you should mention war profiteers...
A big weapons company here had a christmas party and it got inturrupted by activists dressed as santa, protesting the wars.
https://www.nettavisen.no/okonomi/demonstranter-avbrot-kongsberg-gruppens-julebord/s/5-95-1494612

Apparently they think Kongsberg Aerospace and Defense sells weapons to Israel. 

But they do not.  They do sell to the US tho.  One of their bigger customers.  But I guess its easy to hate weapon makers when you don't bother to think that without them, Ukraine would have lost to Russia already.

I cannot believe themightykabool just brokered world peace and I understood every word of it! lol

Them crazy Candadians.

worship me!
bow to me!



The Antichrist—Will He Bring Peace Between Hamas and ...

Living Waters
https://livingwaters.com › Learn
Oct 25, 2023 — Many Christians believe the Israel-Hamas war will lead to the Antichrist's coming—and it does seem like the stage may be set for his coming.










actually fun fact
some evangelicals back trump because they viewed him as the anticrhist (kushner's 666 address and the putin-hitler-trump connection).
(and the other evangelicals want tax breaks or are just nutty)







also also
glad i was understood
thanks for the shoutout and the koodos.

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on December 06, 2023, 06:42:06 AM

Okay Jura, I still want to be bffs. I know this is a touchy subject, but I really have been trying to understand all the opinions on it. I don't expect anyone here to solve the problems, but I am truly interested in everyone's ideas about what they should do differently. I know they should stop bombing the shit out of Gaza, and the civilian toll is horrifying. It's bad, and the leaders and the warmongering defense contractors make it all worse. Politicians make it worse. The media make it worse.

I cannot believe themightykabool just brokered world peace and I understood every word of it! lol

Quote

The main solution for both situations is to end the war as soon as possible and put Netanyahu on trial for the crime of genocide. It is obvious that political wills act in favor of the party committing genocide. It is obvious that they will continue to remain silent or play Don Quixote. They will not produce any real reaction and will cause the public's frenzied anger to escalate. This may be the psychological environment that evil globalists want to create for a new genocide of the Jews. And so there will be no obstacle remain to the world's great reset.

wise, I agree that Netanyahu should be tried for war crimes (and all the other crimes he has committed). I wish all the war criminals would be held responsible for their actions. The ones sending others to die as martyrs as they sit in luxury. The war profiteers... all of them. 

Also, Mr Crouton shall become croissant!

Funny you should mention war profiteers...
A big weapons company here had a christmas party and it got inturrupted by activists dressed as santa, protesting the wars.
https://www.nettavisen.no/okonomi/demonstranter-avbrot-kongsberg-gruppens-julebord/s/5-95-1494612

Apparently they think Kongsberg Aerospace and Defense sells weapons to Israel. 

But they do not.  They do sell to the US tho.  One of their bigger customers.  But I guess its easy to hate weapon makers when you don't bother to think that without them, Ukraine would have lost to Russia already.

I don't like storms!

Ban all umbrella manufacturers!

Let's throw the poor weapons makers a big thank you party. imo

Let's throw the poor weapons makers a big thank you party. imo

Nah.  They're good.  Your money is all the thanks they need.

Ban all umbrella manufacturers!

Right!  Nothing wrong with getting wet.  Why are people afraid of water?  I walk in the rain all the time and I'm fine.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/12/israel-gaza-hamas-biden-netanyahu/

Biden told supporters that “the indiscriminate bombing that takes place” was beginning to cost Israel support around the world.

One thing I like about Biden is that sometimes he just blurts out the truth for no reason.

We are both saying that companies want to make as much money as possible and sell to as many people as possible.
I'm not entirely sure what distinction you're trying to make here.  Something about it's the media's fault for reporting on X's bad content and... I'm not sure. 
Look at how hard But Light pulled away from promoting a single trans person when the backlash hit. Is that "the media" again, or is it the right wing freaking out and making Bud panic?
Doesn't matter if the left or right has a freakout, companies are going to shy away from anything that generates controversy.

Not that it is the media's fault. Instead that if the media stopped focusing on twitter so much, it would get its advertisers back relatively easy. But I don't think Musk wants that.

Again I'm going to disagree here.  I have a lot of left wing friends and family and groups and none of them, literally none of them are supporting Hamas terrorists.  None of them want Israel destroyed.  None of them want to see any Isralies die.  None of them want to see the rockets hit apartment buildings.  None of them want to see Israel fall. None.

Picking which side you think is more at fault does NOT mean you support the murderers on the other side.  I can choose which side I think is more at fault and still want them both to stop the killing.

Maybe your leftist friends are saying otherwise but that's not the case in any groups I engage with.  Not saying nobody is supporting the terrorists, some people clearly ARE but to try and claim this is a majority opinion of the Democratic party is insane.  A college student saying something ignorant and stupid isn't anything new here, there are always plenty of them.

If you have any polls or actual data to support the majority of Democrats support actual terrorists, please say so.  Otherwise it's just your experiences verses mine, and I see a very different world than you do.

If they are saying things like Israel is to blame for the Hamas terrorist attack on Israel, they are defending and supporting terrorists.
If they are saying things like Israel shouldn't take action against Hamas, they are defending and supporting terrorists.

I agree that it would be much better if innocent Palestinians weren't caught in the cross fire, and I think Israel should take better steps to protect them.
But I also recognise that Hamas is using human shields.

That is very simplistic, to argue that Hamas did the foul things they did in a vacuum, out of the blue and to cite previous and ongoing atrocities done by the Israeli government (Sabra, Shatila etc) as backing them.
To say that slaughtering tens of thousands of Palestinians in an indiscriminate bombing campaign to get at Hamas is an abomination, is in your eyes defending and supporting terrorists.

I am with JJ on this, I am left wing, consequently many of my friends and family are too, none of them are Hamas supporters, on the contrary they think as I do that they are a vile radical hate group, but they are born from a conflict decades in the making, where forced repatriation and the stripping of all rights in the country they were born to is part of the process of the Jewish settlement program, protest is met with bullets and bulldozers.

To say this, is in no way to give a pass or to agree in anyway with what was done on the 7th but to give a context that Israel, who had warning from both its border watchers and the Egyptian military that this was about to happen, are using the horror generated to kill as many Palestinians as they possibly can.

To call for a ceasefire, isn’t backing terrorists it’s recognising that Hamas isn’t the Palestinian people any more than the IRA were the Irish, that this type of response can only bring decades more of reprisals from the traumatised survivors.

That is very simplistic, to argue that Hamas did the foul things they did in a vacuum, out of the blue and to cite previous and ongoing atrocities done by the Israeli government (Sabra, Shatila etc) as backing them.
To say that slaughtering tens of thousands of Palestinians in an indiscriminate bombing campaign to get at Hamas is an abomination, is in your eyes defending and supporting terrorists.

I am with JJ on this, I am left wing, consequently many of my friends and family are too, none of them are Hamas supporters, on the contrary they think as I do that they are a vile radical hate group, but they are born from a conflict decades in the making, where forced repatriation and the stripping of all rights in the country they were born to is part of the process of the Jewish settlement program, protest is met with bullets and bulldozers.

To say this, is in no way to give a pass or to agree in anyway with what was done on the 7th but to give a context that Israel, who had warning from both its border watchers and the Egyptian military that this was about to happen, are using the horror generated to kill as many Palestinians as they possibly can.

To call for a ceasefire, isn’t backing terrorists it’s recognising that Hamas isn’t the Palestinian people any more than the IRA were the Irish, that this type of response can only bring decades more of reprisals from the traumatised survivors.

I'm not pretending it is done in a vacuum. But that does not provide justification for Hamas to go into Israel and intentionally target civilians like they did.
Likewise, there is no justifiable reason for them to use these civilians as hostages and threaten to murder them if Israel continues.

I would compare it to the bombings of cities during WWII, and suggesting that the allies just call for a ceasefire with Hitler still in power.
But in a sense Israel is more justified in that due to Hamas using human shields.
That is what makes Israel resort to these tactics, Hamas using human shields.
Yes, it is very unfortunate that those civilians die, but with Hamas using them as human shields, including telling them to stay while the IDF told them to evacuate, and Hamas wanting to wipe out Israel, Israel doesn't have much choice.
The only ceasefire that would be acceptable is a complete surrender of Hamas. Otherwise Hamas remains and continues to carry out attacks on Israel, which will lead to more conflicts like this.

Also, do you not find it strange how you happily give context to a terrorist group intentionally targeting and killing/kidnapping civilians, while you don't do the same for the bombing?
Even if it is indiscriminate, that is still better than intentionally targeting civilians.