War

In case you're unaware, Russia forbids their soldiers from bringing in phones.  So Russian soldiers have to steal a phone from a Ukrainian to call their loved ones.  The thing is these calls have to go through their telecom network so obviously they listen in on everything.

Here are 3 intercepted calls.

The first is a regular soldier calling his girlfriend or wife.  Nothing special.

The second call is a request to Ukraine to surrender.  He spends a lot of time reassuring him that he wont' cut off off his balls.

The third call is a little rough.  A soldier calls his sifiniciant' other.  He is running from the Kharkiv counter attack.  He explains that shrapnel and hit his hands and feet.  She says to go to the hospital.  Those not an option.  But they have a lot of painkillers to handle it.

Then there's a "BOOM"! that you can hear form the cell.  I'm guessing artillery.  It breaks him.  He starts balling and talking about how they don't have anything to counter the Ukranians and the're all going to die there.

Then "boom".  Aftillery in the

It’s easy to get caught up in the Hollywood, boys-own, good guys and bad guys, Slava Ukraine view of this, or any war, and forget a lot of those dying out there are kids, misinformed, poorly educated, trained, and equipped. 

There was a communist poster from the 2nd world war I think, that said a bayonet is a weapon with a worker at both ends, nothing changed.

I don't lose track of that regardless of how glib I sound about it.

The third recording was kind of excruciating if I'm to be honest.  It kind of stings a bit.  Ukraine is a victim here.  Most Russian soldiers are also victims.

There is a whole raft of these interceptions, and most are difficult to listen to, where he says he’s sick of stacking bodies and he’s covered in blood, but it’s not on the news much, mostly just how awesome the various weapons are that NATO supply, it’s as if it’s an advertisement for the war corporations, this is how you can decimate a generation of your opponents non-essential youth at a distance that makes it impersonal.

Most Russian soldiers are also victims.

How many of those killed would not hesitate to torture, rape and kill civilians if given a chance?

Fuck 'em

The same amount that would in any given population of pretty much any country on earth, including your benighted shithole.

Quote from: Crouton on September 14, 2022, 12:41:58 AM

Most Russian soldiers are also victims.

How many of those killed would not hesitate to torture, rape and kill civilians if given a chance?

Fuck 'em

Jura is right.
Even if its 1%, thats gonna be a decent number of people.
Right now there's 1.15 million Russian servicemen.

1% of that is 11,500.
If 11,000 people torture, rape, and murder civillians, its enough to make the whole army look evil.  Even tho its just 1%

Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on September 14, 2022, 02:27:53 AM

Quote from: Crouton on September 14, 2022, 12:41:58 AM

Most Russian soldiers are also victims.

How many of those killed would not hesitate to torture, rape and kill civilians if given a chance?

Fuck 'em

Jura is right.
Even if its 1%, thats gonna be a decent number of people.
Right now there's 1.15 million Russian servicemen.

1% of that is 11,500.
If 11,000 people torture, rape, and murder civillians, its enough to make the whole army look evil.  Even tho its just 1%

Bad eggs in every soldier of course

Here is one such fuckwit from Australia. Given the Victoria Cross too


And if he died on the battle field, I'd say the same. Fuck him. No sympathy

So according to your faultless logic, for his, and those like him (59 pages of Aussy war crimes in the official war crime dossier), we should condemn all bogan soldiers to an early grave, especially as they did their fighting at the behest of foreign powers, that is the UK and the yanks, so were technically mercenaries?
 

So according to your faultless logic, for his, and those like him (59 pages of Aussy war crimes in the official war crime dossier), we should condemn all bogan soldiers to an early grave, especially as they did their fighting at the behest of foreign powers, that is the UK and the yanks, so were technically mercenaries?

The entire MO of the Russian army is to brutalise civilians. Indeed, fuck them all. I doubt a single one of them, no matter how twisted or conditioned their brainwashing is, believes even they are in Ukraine for any honourable cause

A good soldier not only knows when to follow orders, but when to refuse orders

You think the Russian inside a tank pulling the trigger on an unarmed cyclist minding his own business thought he was doing it for the defense of Russia? Does Englands defense force have the notoriety where the entire time they occupy a foreign land littered with stories where their soldiers raped, tortured, cut off civilian food and water supplies, target apartment buildings, hospitals and schools, use white phosphorus bombs, chemical weapons and shell and take up arms inside a nuclear power plant? Most of all, to have all of this shit sanctioned by the government?

If you think that Russians defense force is comparable to your own or Australias then I have no words for you. America... You might have half a case there

I would hazard a guess that if a general in the British defense force asked his men to go to every house in a civilian suburb, round up all the men and boys, strip them, beat them and then kill them - and to rape the women - he wouldn't find a single willing participant. Or is this assumption too generous?

Or maybe you have been watching too much 'Russia Today' and are buying the BS they are selling

refusing orders is execution


being a footsoldier doesnt' usualy tend to have democratic or bottom up managing styles.





hooowever
war criming is war criming

refusing orders is execution


being a footsoldier doesnt' usualy tend to have democratic or bottom up managing styles.





hooowever
war criming is war criming

I'd rather die then commit some of the atrocities these barbarians have done. Apparantly some have fled though, good on them. Maybe some turned their gun on their own commander.

Trying to say Russia's army is comparable to ours is pretty demented. In democratic countries, the penalty of refusing to carry out an order isn't death. And I doubt there would be any trouble if the order refused was to rape and murder civilians purely out of spite. The commander trying to give those orders would be in deep shit though

Or maybe you believe that war is a cut and dried goodies versus baddies thing as reported by our press and that Breaker Morant never killed those teachers, or that during 1900 to 1901 In Beijing Boxer rebelion, Australian officers and sailors were not directly involved in “the execution of Chinese including by firing squad, and later by decapitation (carried out by a Chinese executioner).” That they didn't also participated in “the sack of Peking,” which “was marked by wanton violence and looting, which lasted for several weeks.” That there were “many contemporaneous reports” of looting, rape and murder and the burning of civilian villages.

Another such colonial massacre occurred in the 1918 “Surafend Incident” in Palestine, involving about 200 Australian, New Zealand and Scottish troops. Following the death of a New Zealand soldier, they burned a village and a neighbouring Bedouin encampment. Estimates of the local people killed range from 20 to 137. To name just a few from the long list from the Boer war to Vietnam.


All wars brutalise combatants as well as the locals, and there are considerable and verifiable reports of atrocities in this war, but we are getting a one-sided view and if you don’t think there are reprisals going on then you are an idiot.

The Bottom line is with these intercepts it shows young men out of their depth fighting in a war they don’t understand, in the early ones they were told they would be welcomed, or they were liberators and couldn’t understand the hostilities, as it has progressed many have refused to fight or have seen executions of their own comrades by their own side, or are just plain scared to death.

The Russian people are no different from any other people, their leaders may be bastards who revel in terror but look around the world at the wars prosecuted by any side and point me to one that has not had a massacre of innocents.

Quote from: Jura-Glenlivet II on September 14, 2022, 07:01:03 AM

So according to your faultless logic, for his, and those like him (59 pages of Aussy war crimes in the official war crime dossier), we should condemn all bogan soldiers to an early grave, especially as they did their fighting at the behest of foreign powers, that is the UK and the yanks, so were technically mercenaries?

The entire MO of the Russian army is to brutalise civilians. Indeed, fuck them all. I doubt a single one of them, no matter how twisted or conditioned their brainwashing is, believes even they are in Ukraine for any honourable cause

A good soldier not only knows when to follow orders, but when to refuse orders

You think the Russian inside a tank pulling the trigger on an unarmed cyclist minding his own business thought he was doing it for the defense of Russia? Does Englands defense force have the notoriety where the entire time they occupy a foreign land littered with stories where their soldiers raped, tortured, cut off civilian food and water supplies, target apartment buildings, hospitals and schools, use white phosphorus bombs, chemical weapons and shell and take up arms inside a nuclear power plant? Most of all, to have all of this shit sanctioned by the government?

If you think that Russians defense force is comparable to your own or Australias then I have no words for you. America... You might have half a case there

I would hazard a guess that if a general in the British defense force asked his men to go to every house in a civilian suburb, round up all the men and boys, strip them, beat them and then kill them - and to rape the women - he wouldn't find a single willing participant. Or is this assumption too generous?

Or maybe you have been watching too much 'Russia Today' and are buying the BS they are selling

If you say it all at once, Russian soldiers might not either.
But stagger it?


"Ok men, we need to go in, search this block for enemy combatants.  If you find anyone, take them outside so you can search without risking being shot."

Once they're all out...

"Ok we need to search the males for weapons or intel.  Setup strip searches."

Some time later...

"We recieved intel that these people know something about enemy movements.  Find out what, anyway you can."

Some time later...

"Men, you've done good.  You deserve a break and I'm sure the women here need a new man. *Wink*"

Its easy to resist evil if it sounds evil.  Less so if it sounds reasonable.

Or maybe you believe that war is a cut and dried goodies versus baddies thing as reported by our press and that Breaker Morant never killed those teachers, or that during 1900 to 1901 In Beijing Boxer rebelion, Australian officers and sailors were not directly involved in “the execution of Chinese including by firing squad, and later by decapitation (carried out by a Chinese executioner).” That they didn't also participated in “the sack of Peking,” which “was marked by wanton violence and looting, which lasted for several weeks.” That there were “many contemporaneous reports” of looting, rape and murder and the burning of civilian villages.

Another such colonial massacre occurred in the 1918 “Surafend Incident” in Palestine, involving about 200 Australian, New Zealand and Scottish troops. Following the death of a New Zealand soldier, they burned a village and a neighbouring Bedouin encampment. Estimates of the local people killed range from 20 to 137. To name just a few from the long list from the Boer war to Vietnam.


All wars brutalise combatants as well as the locals, and there are considerable and verifiable reports of atrocities in this war, but we are getting a one-sided view and if you don’t think there are reprisals going on then you are an idiot.

The Bottom line is with these intercepts it shows young men out of their depth fighting in a war they don’t understand, in the early ones they were told they would be welcomed, or they were liberators and couldn’t understand the hostilities, as it has progressed many have refused to fight or have seen executions of their own comrades by their own side, or are just plain scared to death.

The Russian people are no different from any other people, their leaders may be bastards who revel in terror but look around the world at the wars prosecuted by any side and point me to one that has not had a massacre of innocents.

So your examples are from over a century ago. I'll do you one better. When the British colonisedinvaded Australia and fucked over the indigenous population in a culling that would would make Putin take notice. Exterminated them in Tasmania for.... reasons.

How about we compare your defense for TODAY vs Russias defense force. TODAY. And the governments behind both. I think you'll find that in our 21st century values that one comes out as honourable and the other comes out as despicable.

Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on September 14, 2022, 07:42:46 AM

Quote from: Jura-Glenlivet II on September 14, 2022, 07:01:03 AM

So according to your faultless logic, for his, and those like him (59 pages of Aussy war crimes in the official war crime dossier), we should condemn all bogan soldiers to an early grave, especially as they did their fighting at the behest of foreign powers, that is the UK and the yanks, so were technically mercenaries?

The entire MO of the Russian army is to brutalise civilians. Indeed, fuck them all. I doubt a single one of them, no matter how twisted or conditioned their brainwashing is, believes even they are in Ukraine for any honourable cause

A good soldier not only knows when to follow orders, but when to refuse orders

You think the Russian inside a tank pulling the trigger on an unarmed cyclist minding his own business thought he was doing it for the defense of Russia? Does Englands defense force have the notoriety where the entire time they occupy a foreign land littered with stories where their soldiers raped, tortured, cut off civilian food and water supplies, target apartment buildings, hospitals and schools, use white phosphorus bombs, chemical weapons and shell and take up arms inside a nuclear power plant? Most of all, to have all of this shit sanctioned by the government?

If you think that Russians defense force is comparable to your own or Australias then I have no words for you. America... You might have half a case there

I would hazard a guess that if a general in the British defense force asked his men to go to every house in a civilian suburb, round up all the men and boys, strip them, beat them and then kill them - and to rape the women - he wouldn't find a single willing participant. Or is this assumption too generous?

Or maybe you have been watching too much 'Russia Today' and are buying the BS they are selling

If you say it all at once, Russian soldiers might not either.
But stagger it?


"Ok men, we need to go in, search this block for enemy combatants.  If you find anyone, take them outside so you can search without risking being shot."

Once they're all out...

"Ok we need to search the males for weapons or intel.  Setup strip searches."

Some time later...

"We recieved intel that these people know something about enemy movements.  Find out what, anyway you can."

Some time later...

"Men, you've done good.  You deserve a break and I'm sure the women here need a new man. *Wink*"

Its easy to resist evil if it sounds evil.  Less so if it sounds reasonable.

Well even if you staggered it like that, I dont think you'll find too many British eager to to take that last step and shoot a bound person in the back of the head - possibly to dozens to hundreds of civilians.

Even our soldiers that didn't commit any 'war crimes' that come home can suffer major PTSD. That has killed more soldiers at home (through suicide) in recent years then on the battle field. Probably because our soldiers have a conscious. Dont know if all the conditioning the Ruskis get makes them at peace with the depraved crimes they do. To those at peace with their crimes - most certainly, fuck 'em. Beyond saving

There is a whole raft of these interceptions, and most are difficult to listen to, where he says he’s sick of stacking bodies and he’s covered in blood, but it’s not on the news much, mostly just how awesome the various weapons are that NATO supply, it’s as if it’s an advertisement for the war corporations, this is how you can decimate a generation of your opponents non-essential youth at a distance that makes it impersonal.

The real war rarely gets put on the news.  I've read some accounts of ww2 in the Pacific theater.  There's no way they could make an accurate movie based on that.

To take it back to a macro level, given the demographics of Russia all youth is very essential.  The amount of young people they're losing is going to cause a lot of harm to them in the long run.

Quote from: Crouton on September 14, 2022, 12:41:58 AM

Most Russian soldiers are also victims.

How many of those killed would not hesitate to torture, rape and kill civilians if given a chance?

Fuck 'em

I don't know how widespread that is.  1%?  10%?  I'm sure there's at least a non zero percentage who are sticking to the rules.

I wouldn't immediately assume that any Russian soldier is also a war criminal.

Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on September 14, 2022, 02:27:53 AM

Quote from: Crouton on September 14, 2022, 12:41:58 AM

Most Russian soldiers are also victims.

How many of those killed would not hesitate to torture, rape and kill civilians if given a chance?

Fuck 'em

I don't know how widespread that is.  1%?  10%?  I'm sure there's at least a non zero percentage who are sticking to the rules.

I wouldn't immediately assume that any Russian soldier is also a war criminal.

As the invasion itself has been deemed illegal and based on bullshit, their existence in Ukraine which is a sovereign country makes them criminals at the least. If you stormed into my house accusing me of being a NAZI and to GTFO and I told you to GTFO, you would be the criminal

And what 'rules' are the Russian soldiers adhering to?

Quote from: Crouton on September 14, 2022, 08:56:58 AM

Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on September 14, 2022, 02:27:53 AM

Quote from: Crouton on September 14, 2022, 12:41:58 AM

Most Russian soldiers are also victims.

How many of those killed would not hesitate to torture, rape and kill civilians if given a chance?

Fuck 'em

I don't know how widespread that is.  1%?  10%?  I'm sure there's at least a non zero percentage who are sticking to the rules.

I wouldn't immediately assume that any Russian soldier is also a war criminal.

As the invasion itself has been deemed illegal and based on bullshit, their existence in Ukraine which is a sovereign country makes them criminals at the least. If you stormed into my house accusing me of being a NAZI and to GTFO and I told you to GTFO, you would be the criminal

And what 'rules' are the Russian soldiers adhering to?

International Humanitarian Law specifically.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_humanitarian_law

Fighting in an illegal war is bad.  Committing war crimes in any war is way worse.  And as far as the legitimacy of a war, it's not always obvious to the soldiers or their civilian population if that war is justified or not.  If we're going down that route then we'd have to throw every country that invaded Iraq into the same bucket as Russian war criminals.

If we're going down that route then we'd have to throw every country that invaded Iraq into the same bucket as Russian war criminals.

The yanks were part of that fake intel. And they knew it was fake. I have zero problem admonishing the yanks for their past wars. You can see how they continue to treat Julian Assange who only revealed some war crimes as to their values today.

But would England or Australia condone or praise the kinds of atrocities that Russia is doing right now? Do you think any Russian returning home will face a court of tribunal regarding their conduct?

Like I said, comparing our nations and soldiers to Russias is demented. There are nothing alike. If Russians were misled going into the war, thinking they would be liberators, they sure as shit know they aren't welcome anymore

Quote from: Lorddave on September 14, 2022, 08:19:15 AM

Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on September 14, 2022, 07:42:46 AM

Quote from: Jura-Glenlivet II on September 14, 2022, 07:01:03 AM

So according to your faultless logic, for his, and those like him (59 pages of Aussy war crimes in the official war crime dossier), we should condemn all bogan soldiers to an early grave, especially as they did their fighting at the behest of foreign powers, that is the UK and the yanks, so were technically mercenaries?

The entire MO of the Russian army is to brutalise civilians. Indeed, fuck them all. I doubt a single one of them, no matter how twisted or conditioned their brainwashing is, believes even they are in Ukraine for any honourable cause

A good soldier not only knows when to follow orders, but when to refuse orders

You think the Russian inside a tank pulling the trigger on an unarmed cyclist minding his own business thought he was doing it for the defense of Russia? Does Englands defense force have the notoriety where the entire time they occupy a foreign land littered with stories where their soldiers raped, tortured, cut off civilian food and water supplies, target apartment buildings, hospitals and schools, use white phosphorus bombs, chemical weapons and shell and take up arms inside a nuclear power plant? Most of all, to have all of this shit sanctioned by the government?

If you think that Russians defense force is comparable to your own or Australias then I have no words for you. America... You might have half a case there

I would hazard a guess that if a general in the British defense force asked his men to go to every house in a civilian suburb, round up all the men and boys, strip them, beat them and then kill them - and to rape the women - he wouldn't find a single willing participant. Or is this assumption too generous?

Or maybe you have been watching too much 'Russia Today' and are buying the BS they are selling

If you say it all at once, Russian soldiers might not either.
But stagger it?


"Ok men, we need to go in, search this block for enemy combatants.  If you find anyone, take them outside so you can search without risking being shot."

Once they're all out...

"Ok we need to search the males for weapons or intel.  Setup strip searches."

Some time later...

"We recieved intel that these people know something about enemy movements.  Find out what, anyway you can."

Some time later...

"Men, you've done good.  You deserve a break and I'm sure the women here need a new man. *Wink*"

Its easy to resist evil if it sounds evil.  Less so if it sounds reasonable.

Well even if you staggered it like that, I dont think you'll find too many British eager to to take that last step and shoot a bound person in the back of the head - possibly to dozens to hundreds of civilians.

Even our soldiers that didn't commit any 'war crimes' that come home can suffer major PTSD. That has killed more soldiers at home (through suicide) in recent years then on the battle field. Probably because our soldiers have a conscious. Dont know if all the conditioning the Ruskis get makes them at peace with the depraved crimes they do. To those at peace with their crimes - most certainly, fuck 'em. Beyond saving

Maybe not.  Or maybe they wouldn't.  It really depends on their training.

Like if you had some experienced and well trained soldiers, they probably wouldn't.
Throw a bunch of 18 year olds with a week training there with a "do it or we kill you", and they just might.

Throw a bunch of 18 year olds with a week training there with a "do it or we kill you", and they just might.

Still goes to the heart of how fucked up their defense force is. And the fact that someone is giving that order, and more than a few following them. This isn't some lone bad egg or 2. It is systematic. It is not comparable to ones like Australia or England.

100+ years ago we were brutes. Times have changed. For us at least

Quote from: Lorddave on September 14, 2022, 10:42:26 AM

Throw a bunch of 18 year olds with a week training there with a "do it or we kill you", and they just might.

Still goes to the heart of how fucked up their defense force is. And the fact that someone is giving that order, and more than a few following them. This isn't some lone bad egg or 2. It is systematic. It is not comparable to ones like Australia or England.

100+ years ago we were brutes. Times have changed. For us at least

Agreed.

Also, I'm sure there's plenty who sign up for the love of war and murder.  Those people wouldn't need orders...

https://odessa-journal.com/georgia-proposes-to-hold-a-referendum-and-ask-if-georgians-want-war-with-russia/

I don't know how serious this is.  It seems like a good time to attempt it.  I almost hope they don't since it's the sort of thing that threatens to move us closer to a world war.

Quote from: Jura-Glenlivet II on September 14, 2022, 08:16:40 AM

Or maybe you believe that war is a cut and dried goodies versus baddies thing as reported by our press and that Breaker Morant never killed those teachers, or that during 1900 to 1901 In Beijing Boxer rebelion, Australian officers and sailors were not directly involved in “the execution of Chinese including by firing squad, and later by decapitation (carried out by a Chinese executioner).” That they didn't also participated in “the sack of Peking,” which “was marked by wanton violence and looting, which lasted for several weeks.” That there were “many contemporaneous reports” of looting, rape and murder and the burning of civilian villages.

Another such colonial massacre occurred in the 1918 “Surafend Incident” in Palestine, involving about 200 Australian, New Zealand and Scottish troops. Following the death of a New Zealand soldier, they burned a village and a neighbouring Bedouin encampment. Estimates of the local people killed range from 20 to 137. To name just a few from the long list from the Boer war to Vietnam.


All wars brutalise combatants as well as the locals, and there are considerable and verifiable reports of atrocities in this war, but we are getting a one-sided view and if you don’t think there are reprisals going on then you are an idiot.

The Bottom line is with these intercepts it shows young men out of their depth fighting in a war they don’t understand, in the early ones they were told they would be welcomed, or they were liberators and couldn’t understand the hostilities, as it has progressed many have refused to fight or have seen executions of their own comrades by their own side, or are just plain scared to death.

The Russian people are no different from any other people, their leaders may be bastards who revel in terror but look around the world at the wars prosecuted by any side and point me to one that has not had a massacre of innocents.

So your examples are from over a century ago. I'll do you one better. When the British colonisedinvaded Australia and fucked over the indigenous population in a culling that would would make Putin take notice. Exterminated them in Tasmania for.... reasons.

How about we compare your defense for TODAY vs Russias defense force. TODAY. And the governments behind both. I think you'll find that in our 21st century values that one comes out as honourable and the other comes out as despicable.

You seem to be missing my point at the same time as underlining it,

Something a bit more up-to-date.  https://www.uwa.edu.au/news/article/2020/november/report-exposes-alleged-war-crimes-in-the-australian-special-forces

The report outlined information that shocked the Australian public including allegations of 39 unlawful killings of civilians or prisoners, and two cases of cruel treatment.

And like you put about past British atrocities, absolutely and we have a question mark over things that were done both in Afghanistan and Iraq, the point is when these things are allowed or encouraged they flourish, where they are frowned on or discouraged they still happen, but as Dave put it's a smaller percentage of the general military presence.

The point I was making with Crouts, was that the conscripts barely knew what was going on, in the early interceptions some of them thought they were on manoeuvrers, others thought they were liberators who would be welcomed and some didn't even realise they were in Ukraine, until they were getting shot at and dying.

Yes Putin is a bastard, yes some of his troops especially the special forces, Chechen mercenaries and regulars and perhaps some of the conscripts have committed barbarities, but the vast majority are dying having been dumped into a war as poorly armed, barely trained cannon fodder, and deserve some sympathy.   

Wagner is recruiting from the Russian prisons. 

https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1570370211114631169

Seeing as the regular Russian troops are theiving murdering looting rapists,  these guys will fit right in.

No sexual contact with local women, men or fauna and flora.

Great. Russia doesn't need to start General mobilization. They just need to arrest all males age 18 to 40 for failing to enlist in the military.

Something tells me this is a controled fake war! And the images we see of some war going on is a show, and they are sarcrificing their own people. They see it as a necessary evil of deception and lies, and killing off their own civilians for their greater goal of destroying and conquering the West.

I think Russia and Ukraine, their allies, and corrupt western leaders are all in, in this controled military escalations, like a warm up war for World War 3! They started with hacking Western voting systems to elect corrupt lunitics, to demoralize and kill the Souls of the West. The east is miles ahead when it comes to digital technmology, and the Web!  Then they injected them with poison Bioweapon and called it a vaccine! West is a sitting duck! Are you expecting a demoralized, druged, poisoned nations of people going to stand up and fight!?
And by the way this has been going on for decades!

Russia will eventualy take all of Ukraine, which is why Zelensky was put in there, but they are going to drag this to the end until they get what they want from the West. Which is money, and more military weapons, which are in BILLIONS of dollars!  Russia and Ukraine as one, and their allies around the world, including worshippers of the Devil, Turkey, are going to make their move in the winter! They have already shut off energy to the west. So if not this one then it'll be next winter.

How was that? Well, at least I can think outside the box! I'm not like you old and round normies!

How was that? Well, at least I can think outside the box! I'm not like you old and round normies!

It's good to have an open mind, but it shouldn't be so open that your brain falls out.