War

Ukraine is not requiring anyone that "acquires" Russian tanks or other equipment to report them on their taxes. Some Ukrainian farmer already has a Russian tank listed on eBay for $400k and honestly I hope someone buys it to have a very expensive souvenir while also helping fund the boots on the ground.

The mud season (rasputitsa) is in full swing, so that's a welcome tax ruling,  here are some Ukrainian farmers recovering (tax free) bogged and abandoned Russian tanks.
I hope they keep the "Buy It Now"  to a reasonable value.



The kicker here is that the Russian supply convoys have to stick to made roads, and that makes them easier targets.

Just the thing for those freeway traffic jams.

This site has a list of vehicles and equipment captured, destroyed, or abandoned. The list only includes items that have photographs or video evidence (so obviously there are lots more not on the list). It also doesn't include civilian vehicles. https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html 

Just the thing for those freeway traffic jams.

Don't they already have a 40 mile long traffic jam of those things?

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on March 02, 2022, 11:44:26 AM

https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraines-tax-office-captured-russian-tanks-not-personal-taxable-income-2022-3

Quote

Ukrainian authorities say citizens don't need to declare captured Russian tanks and military equipment for tax purposes

Ukrainian authorities said captured Russian tanks wouldn't be counted as part of citizens' income.

They said that seized tanks and military equipment need not be declared for tax purposes.
   
They said such items would be considered a "manifestation of the unity and cohesion" of Ukrainians.

 

That is fucking hilarious.

Yes, it is.  Nobody pays any taxes in Ukraine anyway.

I've seen articles from what I can only wonder are from the 'woke' brigade saying that the news discussion about Ukraine being invaded as 'racist' because we dont cover other war torn regions. While other conflicts dont make the headlines they can certainly be found on sites like Australias ABC or UK's BBC news in their 'world' sections if people bothered to look.

But I think Ukraine is different and worthy of front line news for a number of reasons

Without trying to minimise the tragedy and suffering of African or Middle Eastern nations in war, those are sadly 'not news'. Some of these places have been at each others throats for centuries and have never really had 'peace'.

Russias invasion is news because it is trying to redraw the world map after decades of Ukraines established sovereignty. It also is a threat to all of Europe which frankly does affect the 'Western worlds' audience. If North and South Sudan crack the shits at each other - it really wont affect anyone outside their borders

If North and South Korea engaged in open warfare - you can guarantee it would also make for the same news coverage as that will certainly affect many people all over the world as South Korea is a major economy, friend and trading partner and North Korea is nuclear armed with a deranged leader who might be crazy enough to use them if he feels he's beaten. (and think of the threat to Kdramas!)

So when the worlds biggest country (Russia with 11% total landmass) and having the most nuclear warheads of any other decides to invade a sovereign European country under what is definitely false pretenses and has a batshit crazy leader who is also threatening other countries for daring to talk about joining NATO) then yeah - it's going to make the news.

Is there some racism in reporting and peoples feelings? I'm sure there is. Talking about 'feelings of seeing blue eyed and fair skinned people fleeing war and being turned into refugees' was never going to sit well. Neither is welcoming them at the same time you forbid Syrians from seeking refuge. But the fact news outlets are reporting on it at all while seemingly ignoring conflicts in Africa or the Middle East etc is not 'racist coverage'. At the end of the day, Europe, which is a major trading partner, economy and ally to us is threatened and the stability it has enjoyed for decades since the end of the 2nd world war is no longer assured. Staying silent would be a grave mistake that would be the downfall of us all. If the internet existed in the 1940s I doubt Hitler could have got as far as he did. Russian troops are getting the arse handed to them. They are getting beaten, demoralized and embarrassed. The focused coverage painting Ukraine as the underdog and Russia as the antagonist would be boosting the fighting spirit of Ukraine citizens because they know the world is rooting for them. Imagine if there was a total media blackout and all there was was the BS Russians were spamming. To be blunt, I think people care less about the people of Ukraine and more worried about 'allowing' Russia to dictate policy to Europe as a whole through the barrel of a gun

All this negative Russian coverage can also mean people can make self imposed sanctions against Russian products. Anything Russian is pariah. No more vodka!! Sell all Russian based stocks! Ban all Russians from international events! A lot of these things - they dont 'have' to do them - but they know how deeply unpopular it would be to continue to engage with them thanks to the news coverage.

The only thing left is to fuck Russia off the UN security council saying the only way they can get back in is if they can get their shit together and go home

But there is one way out for Putin to save face. That's winding up with his body riddled with hundreds of bullets and his replacement pulling everything back. That way this pointless war can end without Putin having to surrender lol.

Russia should not be isolated on un security since it is a world changing military power.



The racisim is in the way its being reported.
Not in the seriousness of it.
Daily show did a great montage.
Its "drop everything" to find missing pretty white girl vs missing coloured girl "will show up eventually she probably ran away to become a prostitute".


Cant find the trevor noah clip but this vid has similar excerpts minus the funny (not funny) liners.

I've seen articles from what I can only wonder are from the 'woke' brigade saying that the news discussion about Ukraine being invaded as 'racist' because we dont cover other war torn regions. While other conflicts dont make the headlines they can certainly be found on sites like Australias ABC or UK's BBC news in their 'world' sections if people bothered to look.

But I think Ukraine is different and worthy of front line news for a number of reasons

Without trying to minimise the tragedy and suffering of African or Middle Eastern nations in war, those are sadly 'not news'. Some of these places have been at each others throats for centuries and have never really had 'peace'.

Russias invasion is news because it is trying to redraw the world map after decades of Ukraines established sovereignty. It also is a threat to all of Europe which frankly does affect the 'Western worlds' audience. If North and South Sudan crack the shits at each other - it really wont affect anyone outside their borders

If North and South Korea engaged in open warfare - you can guarantee it would also make for the same news coverage as that will certainly affect many people all over the world as South Korea is a major economy, friend and trading partner and North Korea is nuclear armed with a deranged leader who might be crazy enough to use them if he feels he's beaten. (and think of the threat to Kdramas!)

So when the worlds biggest country (Russia with 11% total landmass) and having the most nuclear warheads of any other decides to invade a sovereign European country under what is definitely false pretenses and has a batshit crazy leader who is also threatening other countries for daring to talk about joining NATO) then yeah - it's going to make the news.

Is there some racism in reporting and peoples feelings? I'm sure there is. Talking about 'feelings of seeing blue eyed and fair skinned people fleeing war and being turned into refugees' was never going to sit well. Neither is welcoming them at the same time you forbid Syrians from seeking refuge. But the fact news outlets are reporting on it at all while seemingly ignoring conflicts in Africa or the Middle East etc is not 'racist coverage'. At the end of the day, Europe, which is a major trading partner, economy and ally to us is threatened and the stability it has enjoyed for decades since the end of the 2nd world war is no longer assured. Staying silent would be a grave mistake that would be the downfall of us all. If the internet existed in the 1940s I doubt Hitler could have got as far as he did. Russian troops are getting the arse handed to them. They are getting beaten, demoralized and embarrassed. The focused coverage painting Ukraine as the underdog and Russia as the antagonist would be boosting the fighting spirit of Ukraine citizens because they know the world is rooting for them. Imagine if there was a total media blackout and all there was was the BS Russians were spamming. To be blunt, I think people care less about the people of Ukraine and more worried about 'allowing' Russia to dictate policy to Europe as a whole through the barrel of a gun

All this negative Russian coverage can also mean people can make self imposed sanctions against Russian products. Anything Russian is pariah. No more vodka!! Sell all Russian based stocks! Ban all Russians from international events! A lot of these things - they dont 'have' to do them - but they know how deeply unpopular it would be to continue to engage with them thanks to the news coverage.

The only thing left is to fuck Russia off the UN security council saying the only way they can get back in is if they can get their shit together and go home

But there is one way out for Putin to save face. That's winding up with his body riddled with hundreds of bullets and his replacement pulling everything back. That way this pointless war can end without Putin having to surrender lol.

How is it "news" when it's not even the first time in recent years that war breaks out in Ukraine but it is "not news" if it happens somewhere roughly in the middle east?

I'd say it's not even racism, although racism is definitely part of it. It's simply that the west cares when it's Russia and doesn't care when it is someone else. Like, there was a war between Armenia and Azerbaijan with tens of thousands dead and many more displaced, which was "news" and it wasn't even between some of the designated "uncivilized" countries as some reporters called them, and yet nobody even remembers it less than 2 years after the fact because the west didn't have a dog in the fight.

Oh great, now the EU is banning Russian media outlets, because that's definitely a normal thing to do and not the start of McCarthyism 2.0 (which is already happening in Czechia).

I have absolutely no problem condemning Putin and his crew for what is happening in Ukraine and hoping for peace at the soonest opportunity, but there is a massive difference in how the world treats different blocks.

When NATO invaded Iraq on the flimsiest of pretext and royally fucked that country, exacerbating the terror situation by creating a growth in those terror organisations by shelling and bombing their infrastructure back to the iron age with no regard for civilian casualties there wasn’t this amount of hand wringing.

The differences that I see?

The top guy of this invaded country seems okay, it’s quite near to me, we got some oil, and they weren’t…. you know…. Like us, if you get my drift.

As usual Pez misreads the situation...

The reaction from the civilized world is more of a reaction against Putin's Russia, rather than purely a reaction in support of Ukraine,  although both those are currently equivalent.

Putin has been waging war on the rest of the world for years,  and rattling the nuclear sabre to try an scare everybody into not responding. 

Remove Putin and everybody that's still surviving goes home happy.   Except maybe with the exception of a few Oligarchs and a few corrupt UK tory pollicians. 

As usual Pez misreads the situation...

The reaction from the civilized world

Oh wow, the "civilized" world. Get over the colonialist mindset challenge, difficulty level: impossible.

Yes, obviously it's not in support of Ukraine, no one otherwise gave a shit about Ukraine. No one gave a shit if they were one of the if not the poorest countries in Europe and overrun with gangs and nazis. The only reason the west cares is because Russia is a competitor, and not even a very powerful one. But Russia does have a lot of fossil fuel, and they are significant for providing China, an actual competitor, with energy and materials. That's the only reason the west cares so much and we're seeing this crazy hysteria in Europe.

Putin has been waging war on the rest of the world for years, 

Nope. Couldn't even do that if he wanted.

Remove Putin and everybody that's still surviving goes home happy.   Except maybe with the exception of a few Oligarchs and a few corrupt UK tory pollicians.

If you say so. Are you the one who designed these policies?

I want to buy a tank, can anyone lend me the money?

Nope. Couldn't even do that if he wanted.

Yes Putin has been at war with the west for years,  with him the cold war never stopped.

Moreover for the past few years he has been winning. 

Quote from: Pezevenk on March 03, 2022, 05:28:13 AM

Nope. Couldn't even do that if he wanted.

Yes Putin has been at war with the west for years,  with him the cold war never stopped.

Moreover for the past few years he has been winning.

The cold war never stopped with the guy who tried to join NATO earlier on, and the last few years the side that saw its sphere of influence continuously shrink and the relevance at the world stage go to shit has been winning. Ok.

The cold war never stopped with the guy who tried to join NATO earlier on, and the last few years the side that saw its sphere of influence continuously shrink and the relevance at the world stage go to shit has been winning. Ok.

Just curious,  how would you describe the points of difference between "european values"  and  "russian values"  with regards to human rights and freedoms.

Quote from: Pezevenk on March 03, 2022, 05:50:43 AM

The cold war never stopped with the guy who tried to join NATO earlier on, and the last few years the side that saw its sphere of influence continuously shrink and the relevance at the world stage go to shit has been winning. Ok.

Just curious,  how would you describe the points of difference between "european values"  and  "russian values"  with regards to human rights and freedoms.

Russia censors media to further their own propaganda. Europe censors media to further their own propaganda but say it's for democracy. Idiots make up stuff like "European values" and "Russian values" as if it's a matter of who is more civilized and whose culture is better instead of a matter of geopolitics.

Quote from: Rayzor on March 03, 2022, 05:13:50 AM

As usual Pez misreads the situation...

The reaction from the civilized world

Oh wow, the "civilized" world. Get over the colonialist mindset challenge, difficulty level: impossible.

Yes, obviously it's not in support of Ukraine, no one otherwise gave a shit about Ukraine. No one gave a shit if they were one of the if not the poorest countries in Europe and overrun with gangs and nazis. The only reason the west cares is because Russia is a competitor, and not even a very powerful one. But Russia does have a lot of fossil fuel, and they are significant for providing China, an actual competitor, with energy and materials. That's the only reason the west cares so much and we're seeing this crazy hysteria in Europe.

Quote

Putin has been waging war on the rest of the world for years, 

Nope. Couldn't even do that if he wanted.

Quote

Remove Putin and everybody that's still surviving goes home happy.   Except maybe with the exception of a few Oligarchs and a few corrupt UK tory pollicians.

If you say so. Are you the one who designed these policies?

Ahh. The Russian sympathizer returns. Of course Putin / Russian state would never have engaged in cyber attacks and hacking and trolling Americans and other Western nations in an attempt to turning them against themselves (seemed to have worked in America)

Just as dumb as Trump when Trump said 'Putin said he didn't interfere in the election and I believe him' (over his fellow American intelligence agency staff of course )

How is it "news" when it's not even the first time in recent years that war breaks out in Ukraine but it is "not news" if it happens somewhere roughly in the middle east?

Look at the scale and the threat to the wider world if Russia is allowed to walk over a sovereign European country. We kinda dropped the ball with Crimea and it may have added to Russia's belligerence. You can bet if Vlad is still around in a few years, he'd think twice before trying to take another country on. Should we have made bigger noise about all the other smaller areas? I agree. Certainly better than all that yankee 'reality' TV shit and tabloid crap we get spammed with. But the reality is the Middle East and many places in Africa etc has been fighting among each other for centuries and their impact to the world is not great enough that their war affects anyone else in 'the west'.

Russia (well basically Vladimir Putin) is a threat to much of our security. Despite over a dozen African countries in armed conflict with their neighbours at almost any given time, none of those leaders threaten anyone outside of their own neighbours safety. That is just the cold reality of it and why people tune in to watch 'Keeping up with the Kardashians' and not on depressing war torn news from countries that have zero impact on their daily life and security.

We are humans - not computers. There is only so much news feed we are going to be able to digest. I'm not going to sit for hours every day studying every single news paper from around the world looking at every conflict and deciding which side to give a fuck about. War is tragic and a bastard wherever it happens. There could be slaughter on an unimaginable scale far off on an alien world - do I personally give a fuck? No. Is it sad and brutal - of course. If that war was a pretext to an invasion of Earth? Well then I'd have a stake in it and would give a damn.

I guarantee you there are countries that do not give a fuck about the Ukraine invasion too. If I lived in Honduras I'm sure I'd have more pressing concerns than the shit Putin gets up to - even if he were to take more than just Ukraine.

Quote from: Rayzor on March 03, 2022, 06:05:47 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on March 03, 2022, 05:50:43 AM

The cold war never stopped with the guy who tried to join NATO earlier on, and the last few years the side that saw its sphere of influence continuously shrink and the relevance at the world stage go to shit has been winning. Ok.

Just curious,  how would you describe the points of difference between "european values"  and  "russian values"  with regards to human rights and freedoms.

Russia censors media to further their own propaganda. Europe censors media to further their own propaganda but say it's for democracy. Idiots make up stuff like "European values" and "Russian values" as if it's a matter of who is more civilized and whose culture is better instead of a matter of geopolitics.

Being civilized is respecting the rights of others and not invading and killing your neighbours.  But I'm not fully familiar with "greek values"  maybe that's acceptable in your greek world.

Shifter, yes, Europe (I'm not sure who "we" is supposed to be here) dropped the ball on Crimea, not for the reason you seem to think.

Media has just decided that "the world" is the west and that there are worthy and unworthy victims, that's all. You're also talking about it as if it is a personal thing. It's not personal, it's not YOU being unable to follow all the news. It has nothing to do with you. It has to do with the approach states have taken here. And the war in Ukraine doesn't affect YOU in Australia either. If the west wasn't competing with Russia this would have been a footnote and no one would have paid attention.

Quote from: Pezevenk on March 03, 2022, 06:08:49 AM

Quote from: Rayzor on March 03, 2022, 06:05:47 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on March 03, 2022, 05:50:43 AM

The cold war never stopped with the guy who tried to join NATO earlier on, and the last few years the side that saw its sphere of influence continuously shrink and the relevance at the world stage go to shit has been winning. Ok.

Just curious,  how would you describe the points of difference between "european values"  and  "russian values"  with regards to human rights and freedoms.

Russia censors media to further their own propaganda. Europe censors media to further their own propaganda but say it's for democracy. Idiots make up stuff like "European values" and "Russian values" as if it's a matter of who is more civilized and whose culture is better instead of a matter of geopolitics.

Being civilized is respecting the rights of others and not invading and killing your neighbours.  But I'm not fully familiar with "greek values"  maybe that's acceptable in your greek world.

Then how is Australia or the US civilized?

Quote from: Rayzor on March 03, 2022, 06:15:00 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on March 03, 2022, 06:08:49 AM

Quote from: Rayzor on March 03, 2022, 06:05:47 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on March 03, 2022, 05:50:43 AM

The cold war never stopped with the guy who tried to join NATO earlier on, and the last few years the side that saw its sphere of influence continuously shrink and the relevance at the world stage go to shit has been winning. Ok.

Just curious,  how would you describe the points of difference between "european values"  and  "russian values"  with regards to human rights and freedoms.

Russia censors media to further their own propaganda. Europe censors media to further their own propaganda but say it's for democracy. Idiots make up stuff like "European values" and "Russian values" as if it's a matter of who is more civilized and whose culture is better instead of a matter of geopolitics.

Being civilized is respecting the rights of others and not invading and killing your neighbours.  But I'm not fully familiar with "greek values"  maybe that's acceptable in your greek world.

Then how is Australia or the US civilized?

That's whataboutism.  You are a smart guy you can do better. 

Why are you supporting Putin's attack on Ukraine,  I'm genuinely curious?

Quote from: Pezevenk on March 03, 2022, 06:21:10 AM

Quote from: Rayzor on March 03, 2022, 06:15:00 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on March 03, 2022, 06:08:49 AM

Quote from: Rayzor on March 03, 2022, 06:05:47 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on March 03, 2022, 05:50:43 AM

The cold war never stopped with the guy who tried to join NATO earlier on, and the last few years the side that saw its sphere of influence continuously shrink and the relevance at the world stage go to shit has been winning. Ok.

Just curious,  how would you describe the points of difference between "european values"  and  "russian values"  with regards to human rights and freedoms.

Russia censors media to further their own propaganda. Europe censors media to further their own propaganda but say it's for democracy. Idiots make up stuff like "European values" and "Russian values" as if it's a matter of who is more civilized and whose culture is better instead of a matter of geopolitics.

Being civilized is respecting the rights of others and not invading and killing your neighbours.  But I'm not fully familiar with "greek values"  maybe that's acceptable in your greek world.

Then how is Australia or the US civilized?

That's whataboutism.  You are a smart guy you can do better. 

Why are you supporting Putin's attack on Ukraine,  I'm genuinely curious?

I'm not supporting Putin's attack. It's not whataboutism at all, seems like people don't know what that word means. You were talking about what the "civilized" world is doing. Then you said civilized is when you don't invade and kill people. Then how are the places you described as civilized actually civilized according to you? It's not at all whataboutism, you just have a very weird perception of what civilized means and you don't see why splitting countries into civilized and uncivilized is just propaganda and nothing more.

I want to buy a tank, can anyone lend me the money?

They're a bit pricey. But if you volunteer to go to Ukraine and join their army then I hear Russia will eventually donate a tank to you.

Shifter, yes, Europe (I'm not sure who "we" is supposed to be here) dropped the ball on Crimea, not for the reason you seem to think.

Media has just decided that "the world" is the west and that there are worthy and unworthy victims, that's all. You're also talking about it as if it is a personal thing. It's not personal, it's not YOU being unable to follow all the news. It has nothing to do with you. It has to do with the approach states have taken here. And the war in Ukraine doesn't affect YOU in Australia either. If the west wasn't competing with Russia this would have been a footnote and no one would have paid attention.

How is 'the west' competing with Russia? No one gives a fuck about taking on Russia. Did you ever think that a lot of our response to Russia is 'reactionary'. Putin is just an authoritatian arsehole. He tries to take sovereign territory that isn't is. They meddle in international affairs.  If anyone is in competition it's Russia despite their economy being nearly 20 times smaller than America (must be even shitter now)

America competed against them in the 'Space Race' and Russia, for the most part, won on all but 1 metric. Landing on the Moon first. Of course they nearly bankrupted themselves in the endeavor though.

And it is personal if my fuel per litre starts to get more expensive! Fuck you Vladimir Putin!!!

Do you think Australia has no stake in this if the security and peace in the EU collapses? Even you cant be that dense.

As usual Pez misreads the situation...

The reaction from the civilized world is more of a reaction against Putin's Russia, rather than purely a reaction in support of Ukraine,  although both those are currently equivalent.

Putin has been waging war on the rest of the world for years,  and rattling the nuclear sabre to try an scare everybody into not responding. 

Remove Putin and everybody that's still surviving goes home happy.   Except maybe with the exception of a few Oligarchs and a few corrupt UK tory pollicians.

It's very insensitive to call them the civilized countries. The correct terminology is non shit hole countries.

Quote from: Rayzor on March 03, 2022, 06:27:36 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on March 03, 2022, 06:21:10 AM

Quote from: Rayzor on March 03, 2022, 06:15:00 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on March 03, 2022, 06:08:49 AM

Quote from: Rayzor on March 03, 2022, 06:05:47 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on March 03, 2022, 05:50:43 AM

The cold war never stopped with the guy who tried to join NATO earlier on, and the last few years the side that saw its sphere of influence continuously shrink and the relevance at the world stage go to shit has been winning. Ok.

Just curious,  how would you describe the points of difference between "european values"  and  "russian values"  with regards to human rights and freedoms.

Russia censors media to further their own propaganda. Europe censors media to further their own propaganda but say it's for democracy. Idiots make up stuff like "European values" and "Russian values" as if it's a matter of who is more civilized and whose culture is better instead of a matter of geopolitics.

Being civilized is respecting the rights of others and not invading and killing your neighbours.  But I'm not fully familiar with "greek values"  maybe that's acceptable in your greek world.

Then how is Australia or the US civilized?

That's whataboutism.  You are a smart guy you can do better. 

Why are you supporting Putin's attack on Ukraine,  I'm genuinely curious?

I'm not supporting Putin's attack. It's not whataboutism at all, seems like people don't know what that word means. You were talking about what the "civilized" world is doing. Then you said civilized is when you don't invade and kill people. Then how are the places you described as civilized actually civilized according to you? It's not at all whataboutism, you just have a very weird perception of what civilized means and you don't see why splitting countries into civilized and uncivilized is just propaganda and nothing more.

Can you name a country that Australia is in the middle of trying to violently overthrow and take as it's own territory?

I'm not supporting Putin's attack. It's not whataboutism at all, seems like people don't know what that word means. You were talking about what the "civilized" world is doing. Then you said civilized is when you don't invade and kill people. Then how are the places you described as civilized actually civilized according to you? It's not at all whataboutism, you just have a very weird perception of what civilized means.

Ok so you aren't supporting Putin,  good to know.

Since you ducked the "values" question,  let's try another tack,  can you describe for me what you think being civilized means.   

Quote from: Rayzor on March 03, 2022, 05:13:50 AM

As usual Pez misreads the situation...

The reaction from the civilized world is more of a reaction against Putin's Russia, rather than purely a reaction in support of Ukraine,  although both those are currently equivalent.

Putin has been waging war on the rest of the world for years,  and rattling the nuclear sabre to try an scare everybody into not responding. 

Remove Putin and everybody that's still surviving goes home happy.   Except maybe with the exception of a few Oligarchs and a few corrupt UK tory pollicians.

It's very insensitive to call them the civilized countries. The correct terminology is non shit hole countries.

Aaahaha

Yss
The racist parts of the coverage are the reportors saying rhat in more polite terms.

Except for tuckerC, the pos, who actually said that.

Quote from: Pezevenk on March 03, 2022, 06:31:20 AM

I'm not supporting Putin's attack. It's not whataboutism at all, seems like people don't know what that word means. You were talking about what the "civilized" world is doing. Then you said civilized is when you don't invade and kill people. Then how are the places you described as civilized actually civilized according to you? It's not at all whataboutism, you just have a very weird perception of what civilized means.

Ok so you aren't supporting Putin,  good to know.

Since you ducked the "values" question,  let's try another tack,  can you describe for me what you think being civilized means.

Civilized to liberals are the people who agree with you. If you disagree you are uncivilized. Simple.