War

But Russia must first "denazify" Ukraine by removing Europe's only Jewish leader!

Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on February 25, 2022, 04:54:32 AM

You believe Russia should just be allowed to take what it wants 'because it can'.

? I said it can't, which is the opposite of "it can".

Yet you seem to oppose any measures that could antagonize Putin. Putin aggressively invades and tries to seize control of a sovereign country and you only come up with weasel words of 'well yeah you cant do that!'. No actions to back it up in fear of escalating the conflict. So all we are left with is a bully doing whatever it wants, when it wants without fear of reprisal.

Sanctions may not 'work' to get Putin to give up his ambitions but it is deserved. We cant just have a 'business as usual' approach to Russia anymore. And if NATO countries bolstered the Ukrainian defense and helped to fight back the Russian troops, they would save themselves the trouble later on and at least have a countries worth of buffer zone. Also Russia might get the memo that the EU wouldn't stand for their shit and when Russian troops start getting sent home in body bags as well as the entire countries economy and world standing tanking to near oblivion, Putin might have no choice but to fuck out.

But if we are just going to have some stern words instead, well I don't think Putin gives 2 shits what the rest of the world thinks of him. The guys a soulless bastard.

There is no easy solution. Russia has no interest other than getting everything their own way which is obviously unacceptable. Conflict is guaranteed

Moscow now says they're ready to talk, and it looks like Kiev also is. Gunboat diplomacy, except the gunboat is already shooting.

Given the news I'm seeing I find it highly unlikely that he's genuinely ready to talk.

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 25, 2022, 05:28:23 AM

Moscow now says they're ready to talk, and it looks like Kiev also is. Gunboat diplomacy, except the gunboat is already shooting.

Given the news I'm seeing I find it highly unlikely that he's genuinely ready to talk.

He's angry and needs to smash other people's stuff up to make him feel better.  Also, he has to get rid of the drug addicted nazis.    Especially that Jewish one in charge.

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 25, 2022, 05:28:23 AM

Moscow now says they're ready to talk, and it looks like Kiev also is. Gunboat diplomacy, except the gunboat is already shooting.

Given the news I'm seeing I find it highly unlikely that he's genuinely ready to talk.

Why?  I'm sure he has an evil speech all ready to go about weakness and surrender is your only option.

There is that.  I'm sure he's always ready to accept unconditional surrender provided the Ukrainian leadership is also willing to save Russia some ammunition by executing themselves.

Then again it sounds like the bloodiest part of the war is about to start, where they invade a city where everyone has a gun and a molotov cocktail.

Russia: "Surrender"
Ukraine: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself!"

Nice.  A bit better than yelling "FREEEEEDDDOOOOOMMMM!!".

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 25, 2022, 05:05:29 AM

Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on February 25, 2022, 04:54:32 AM

You believe Russia should just be allowed to take what it wants 'because it can'.

? I said it can't, which is the opposite of "it can".

Yet you seem to oppose any measures that could antagonize Putin. Putin aggressively invades and tries to seize control of a sovereign country and you only come up with weasel words of 'well yeah you cant do that!'. No actions to back it up in fear of escalating the conflict. So all we are left with is a bully doing whatever it wants, when it wants without fear of reprisal.

I don't think you understand. Putin can't occupy Ukraine. Not "shouldn't" CAN'T. He can try but regardless of what anyone else does it's not something he can hold, at all. Russia has a big army but it isn't a wealthy country and even if you militarily achieve your aims, you can't keep dumping resources into holding up against protracted asymmetrical warfare and discontent, while also trying to rebuild the shit you blew up.

Sanctions may not 'work' to get Putin to give up his ambitions but it is deserved.

If they won't work then what's the point? Deserved for whom? Do you think Putin will go homeless or whatever? Sanctioning his oligarch buddies is appropriate and will definitely annoy them, but something like what you are describing will just hurt a whole lot of random people.

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 25, 2022, 05:28:23 AM

Moscow now says they're ready to talk, and it looks like Kiev also is. Gunboat diplomacy, except the gunboat is already shooting.

Given the news I'm seeing I find it highly unlikely that he's genuinely ready to talk.

Peskov said they are ready to send a delegation. If they're so ready then maybe they should do that already...

Quote from: Crouton on February 25, 2022, 07:36:24 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 25, 2022, 05:28:23 AM

Moscow now says they're ready to talk, and it looks like Kiev also is. Gunboat diplomacy, except the gunboat is already shooting.

Given the news I'm seeing I find it highly unlikely that he's genuinely ready to talk.

Peskov said they are ready to send a delegation. If they're so ready then maybe they should do that already...

I've also read that Russia's foreign minister said that Ukraine needs to stop fighting as a condition of these talks.  No word on whether Russia would also stop fighting.

If they won't work then what's the point?

I think you've answered your own question a few posts earlier.  Russia can't hold Ukraine because it doesn't have the money. 

The Guardian reported earlier that Putin wants the Ukrainian armed forces to take power from Zelenskyy before he will meet. I'm not sure he's making these "offers" to talk in good faith.

Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on February 25, 2022, 07:36:06 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 25, 2022, 05:05:29 AM

Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on February 25, 2022, 04:54:32 AM

You believe Russia should just be allowed to take what it wants 'because it can'.

? I said it can't, which is the opposite of "it can".

Yet you seem to oppose any measures that could antagonize Putin. Putin aggressively invades and tries to seize control of a sovereign country and you only come up with weasel words of 'well yeah you cant do that!'. No actions to back it up in fear of escalating the conflict. So all we are left with is a bully doing whatever it wants, when it wants without fear of reprisal.

I don't think you understand. Putin can't occupy Ukraine. Not "shouldn't" CAN'T. He can try but regardless of what anyone else does it's not something he can hold, at all. Russia has a big army but it isn't a wealthy country and even if you militarily achieve your aims, you can't keep dumping resources into holding up against protracted asymmetrical warfare and discontent, while also trying to rebuild the shit you blew up.

He will simply install a puppet regime that does whatever Russia wants. For all intents and purposes, Ukraine will be Russia like Hong Kong is to China

Quote

Sanctions may not 'work' to get Putin to give up his ambitions but it is deserved.

If they won't work then what's the point? Deserved for whom? Do you think Putin will go homeless or whatever? Sanctioning his oligarch buddies is appropriate and will definitely annoy them, but something like what you are describing will just hurt a whole lot of random people.

Sanctions always hurt random people. Like a North Korean tap dancer having their tap dancing shoes seized as it falls under 'luxury goods'. But there's no way we can simply do business as normal with Russia after this. A lot of people in Russia are pissed at this war too. I bet more than a few who might otherwise be apathetic are joining the chorus of protestors as Putins antics have tanked their economy and hurt everyones bottom line.

I gather from your rhetoric that you think sanctions against Russia are too extreme? Russia needs to be punished and preferably stopped/beaten back. So what would you do to achieve this goal?

Sanctions do hit innocent people.  But consider the alternative of war.  Sanctions seem like the lesser evil to me.

Overall if these sanctions are making Russia poorer and limiting their growth then that's a good thing.  Invading a country isn't cheap.

The Guardian reported earlier that Putin wants the Ukrainian armed forces to take power from Zelenskyy before he will meet. I'm not sure he's making these "offers" to talk in good faith.

It also looks like all these messages may have been pre-recorded.  At least it doesn't look like he's changing his suit.

Which might mean he's locked in his bunker somewhere and has no intention of speaking to anyone.  At least until they've finished smashing shit up.

Congrats on 10,000 posts!  I wish it were a cheerier topic.

Maybe Putin is like Borat.  He wore the same suit the entire time also.

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 25, 2022, 08:37:27 AM

If they won't work then what's the point?

I think you've answered your own question a few posts earlier.  Russia can't hold Ukraine because it doesn't have the money.

But you don't even need most of the sanctions for that. They don't have the money anyways. Occupying territories has even gotten too expensive for the US, Russia is a smaller economy than Italy. Imo the EU should just move away from gas and stop buying it from him. That should do the trick.

Quote from: Crouton on February 25, 2022, 08:47:19 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 25, 2022, 08:37:27 AM

If they won't work then what's the point?

I think you've answered your own question a few posts earlier.  Russia can't hold Ukraine because it doesn't have the money.

But you don't even need most of the sanctions for that. They don't have the money anyways. Occupying territories has even gotten too expensive for the US, Russia is a smaller economy than Italy. Imo the EU should just move away from gas and stop buying it from him. That should do the trick.

Isn't that pretty much what sanctions are?

Quote from: Crouton on February 25, 2022, 08:47:19 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 25, 2022, 08:37:27 AM

If they won't work then what's the point?

I think you've answered your own question a few posts earlier.  Russia can't hold Ukraine because it doesn't have the money.

But you don't even need most of the sanctions for that. They don't have the money anyways. Occupying territories has even gotten too expensive for the US, Russia is a smaller economy than Italy. Imo the EU should just move away from gas and stop buying it from him. That should do the trick.

He's apparently been storing reserves for years in preparation for this. He's planned this moment for a long time

https://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2022/01/31/how-can-putin-afford-war-in-ukraine-his-130-billion-gold-horde-helps/


Give Russia the North Korean treatment. See how long Russia can maintain 'self reliance' for. He might have a few years worth of money to burn on this project, but once the world pivots away from Russia and gets it's energy from elsewhere (including renewable sources like solar which would be even better), no one is going to go back to Russia even if they give up their idiocy.

If Russia has no exports and none of the worlds money coming in - they are screwed. It wont matter how many billions of dollars Putin has in his war chest.

He will simply install a puppet regime that does whatever Russia wants. For all intents and purposes, Ukraine will be Russia like Hong Kong is to China

First of all I don't understand the comparison. Hong Kong is not some place China invaded, Hong Kong belongs to China for years now after it was transfered. Second, that's very easy to say, but how? You can't just install someone and that's that. If you invade some random country, replace their government and leave, they're gonna get merked the next day. It's not like Civ where you just take the capital and now the place is yours. You need occupation to keep them where they are, and we've seen how badly it often pans out. The US was in Afghanistan for almost two decades, dumping huge amounts of money, and still when they left the Taliban took over everything in 3 days. It's gonna be orders of magnitude harder for Russia to do the same.

A lot of people in Russia are pissed at this war too. I bet more than a few who might otherwise be apathetic are joining the chorus of protestors as Putins antics have tanked their economy and hurt everyones bottom line.

Maybe this will happen. Or maybe Putin will tell them "the west is trying to kill us all with sanctions, we must resist" and a lot of people will listen. It's happened many times. Maybe they'll get tired after 20 years. But that's a long time and a lot of devastation. They're gonna be hit regardless of sanctions, at least that way it's not anyone else doing that to them but Putin's ideas.

I gather from your rhetoric that you think sanctions against Russia are too extreme? Russia needs to be punished and preferably stopped/beaten back. So what would you do to achieve this goal?

Decouple Europe from his gas. It's a moronic thing that shouldn't have happened anyways.

You keep talking about the DPRK. How's that panning out?

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 25, 2022, 09:08:24 AM

Quote from: Crouton on February 25, 2022, 08:47:19 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 25, 2022, 08:37:27 AM

If they won't work then what's the point?

I think you've answered your own question a few posts earlier.  Russia can't hold Ukraine because it doesn't have the money.

But you don't even need most of the sanctions for that. They don't have the money anyways. Occupying territories has even gotten too expensive for the US, Russia is a smaller economy than Italy. Imo the EU should just move away from gas and stop buying it from him. That should do the trick.

Isn't that pretty much what sanctions are?

No, most the sanctions discussed right now have to do with banks and a pipeline that wasn't working anyways and that Germany asked him to build for some reason. They won't stop buying gas from him yet, because Europe desperately needs that gas. So maybe they should deal with that issue first.

But Russia must first "denazify" Ukraine by removing Europe's only Jewish leader!

Hmmm, makes sense.


Now Finland and Sweden have been threatened with military response is we dare to join NATO. Great.

Seems like the perfect time to join nato to me.

Quote from: Masalang the Torpedo on February 25, 2022, 08:55:37 AM

He will simply install a puppet regime that does whatever Russia wants. For all intents and purposes, Ukraine will be Russia like Hong Kong is to China

First of all I don't understand the comparison. Hong Kong is not some place China invaded, Hong Kong belongs to China for years now after it was transfered. Second, that's very easy to say, but how? You can't just install someone and that's that. If you invade some random country, replace their government and leave, they're gonna get merked the next day. It's not like Civ where you just take the capital and now the place is yours. You need occupation to keep them where they are, and we've seen how badly it often pans out. The US was in Afghanistan for almost two decades, dumping huge amounts of money, and still when they left the Taliban took over everything in 3 days. It's gonna be orders of magnitude harder for Russia to do the same.

Quote

A lot of people in Russia are pissed at this war too. I bet more than a few who might otherwise be apathetic are joining the chorus of protestors as Putins antics have tanked their economy and hurt everyones bottom line.

Maybe this will happen. Or maybe Putin will tell them "the west is trying to kill us all with sanctions, we must resist" and a lot of people will listen. It's happened many times. Maybe they'll get tired after 20 years. But that's a long time and a lot of devastation. They're gonna be hit regardless of sanctions, at least that way it's not anyone else doing that to them but Putin's ideas.

Quote

I gather from your rhetoric that you think sanctions against Russia are too extreme? Russia needs to be punished and preferably stopped/beaten back. So what would you do to achieve this goal?

Decouple Europe from his gas. It's a moronic thing that shouldn't have happened anyways.

You keep talking about the DPRK. How's that panning out?

Lets pretend the DPRK has no sanctions at all against it. We would probably be in a much worse position now in regards to their capabilities. There is also the ethics in doing business with people who mass murder their own people and threaten the safety of the world with nuclear hellfire

I believe as part of the sanctions package they are already telling Russia to shove it in regards to their oil/energy - at least that German pipeline. As for anything else, pretty sure that pivot is coming as they source other markets. It really was stupid to even entertain the idea of countries putting themselves in a position of dependence to others ruled by despots. Australia is also stupid in this regard having China as our major business partner. After China cracked the shits and started a trade war with us, we have started to find other markets though. But countries also really need to bring back industry to their own shores and not depend on others. During the pandemic when hand sanitiser was in short supply, Australia said 'we can make the hand sanitiser no problem but all our plastic packaging is made in China. We have no way to package them' So stupid.

Once Russia installs its puppet government it wont be as much work to hold as you might think. After Ukraine has been demilitarized, you populate it with Russians loyal to the homeland (more than enough have fled to probably never return). Once you take control of major infrastructure utilities and the public service, there is little in the way Ukrainians can fight back against. For most Ukrainians, it will be much of a muchness with the only difference being they are now considered Russian and Vlad as their ultimate leader. I dont think Crimea has been difficult to hold for the Russians nor the 20% of Georgia it controls today. 'The West' certainly isn't going to help militarily anyway

Give Russia the North Korean treatment. See how long Russia can maintain 'self reliance' for. He might have a few years worth of money to burn on this project, but once the world pivots away from Russia and gets it's energy from elsewhere (including renewable sources like solar which would be even better), no one is going to go back to Russia even if they give up their idiocy.

If Russia has no exports and none of the worlds money coming in - they are screwed. It wont matter how many billions of dollars Putin has in his war chest.

At this point it's all we can do.  Sanction the bastard and hard.  Doing nothing will just be giving him the greenlight to invade every non NATO country he wants.

Lets pretend the DPRK has no sanctions at all against it. We would probably be in a much worse position now in regards to their capabilities.

Dude. Viewing the DPRK as a threat to the world is just kinda funny.

There is also the ethics in doing business with people who mass murder their own people and threaten the safety of the world with nuclear hellfire

"Ethics"? Lol. No one has any issues trading with murderers, only murderers that are not allied to them. And there is nothing ethical about trying to starve people. 

I believe as part of the sanctions package they are already telling Russia to shove it in regards to their oil/energy - at least that German pipeline.

That pipeline has never operated, and Germany was the one who asked them to build it in the first place for some reason at the same time they were denouncing him (I mean earlier, not now). Then the pipeline was built and for 3 years they were like "ok but we're not sure we want to approve it anyways", so it wasn't being used despite being built. Complete nonsense. Now that's the pipeline they're saying they'll shut down. Except it was never operational anyways. It's only reasonable that they'll say they don't want to make it operational but it doesn't change all that much. 

Once Russia installs its puppet government it wont be as much work to hold as you might think. After Ukraine has been demilitarized, you populate it with Russians loyal to the homeland (more than enough have fled to probably never return).

Is Putin just gonna conjure up 40 million Russians out of nowhere? Ukraine is a massive country. Doesn't matter

I dont think Crimea has been difficult to hold for the Russians nor the 20% of Georgia it controls today. 'The West' certainly isn't going to help militarily anyway

1) Russia does not hold any part of Georgia. Separatists aligned with Russia do. Obviously it's not hard to hold because it's held by people who live there anyways.

2) Of course Crimea wasn't hard to hold, because the majority of Crimeans WANTED to join Russia. It's not the same with western Ukraine. That's why I don't understand why he invaded the rest. Holding Donbass? Easy. Holding Crimea? More than easy. Holding western Ukraine? Nope.

https://thehill.com/policy/international/595656-finland-says-debate-on-nato-membership-will-change-after-russian

Great move Russia!  That really helped to reduce the influence of NATO.

https://thehill.com/policy/international/595656-finland-says-debate-on-nato-membership-will-change-after-russian

Great move Russia!  That really helped to reduce the influence of NATO.

Yeah I don't know what he thinks he is doing here. It's only gonna hurt him in the long run. Maybe he's really just lost it, let's see if the oligarchs realize it.

2) Of course Crimea wasn't hard to hold, because the majority of Crimeans WANTED to join Russia. It's not the same with western Ukraine. That's why I don't understand why he invaded the rest. Holding Donbass? Easy. Holding Crimea? More than easy. Holding western Ukraine? Nope.

The why he did it is easy. He's a murderous dictator who is willing to kill thousands because of his ego.

Ukraine made him mad, and now he's punishing them. Not much else to it.

With what we are seeing right now, it's probably a good idea to consider some things. Putin is 69 years old, which is a number that is probably higher than he ever thought he'd see. He knows he won't live forever. And he clearly doesn't give a shit about anything other than his own power (and, of course, flaunting it to make sure everyone recognizes it).

What we're watching right now could very well be a preamble. This is a guy that, if still in charge of Russia's nuclear arsenal while he's on his deathbed, we need to expect he'll act like a kid on an elevator and push all the buttons, "because fuck it." When he's got nothing left to live for, there's no reason to expect he'll respect that everyone still alive has something to live for.