War

This entire time Zelensky has said the plan is to go all in with guerilla style warfare.  Whether that was a threat to deter an invasion or not who knows.

There's definitely gonna be a lot of guerilla warfare if he tries occupying the country. I think and hope Putin knows a war like that is unwinnable.

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 24, 2022, 09:19:55 AM

Quote from: Crouton on February 24, 2022, 09:14:18 AM

Sort of makes me wonder if did we do the right thing by taking such a hands off approach.

Right. Instead of 2 countries fighting we could have literal WWIII between nuclear powers. Sounds like it would have been much better.

Would we though?  Russia vs Ukraine is a foregone conclusion.  Russia vs NATO is a stalemate.  If he attempted the later he would gain nothing.

Yeah, obviously he wouldn't want to attack NATO. But he didn't attack NATO, he attacked Ukraine. If NATO got involved, then he'd automatically be in a war with NATO. And NATO would completely overpower Russia eventually, except that's not even necessarily good news for NATO because he'd be desperate and desperation plus nukes is not a good combo.

There are anti-war protests in Moscow https://twitter.com/martin_camera/status/1496882229443796994?s=20&t=Ra-hodOvt-7H5jqhvgxYHQ 

There are anti-war protests in Moscow https://twitter.com/martin_camera/status/1496882229443796994?s=20&t=Ra-hodOvt-7H5jqhvgxYHQ

Oof can't imagine they will be treated well...

Quote from: Crouton on February 24, 2022, 09:35:41 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 24, 2022, 09:19:55 AM

Quote from: Crouton on February 24, 2022, 09:14:18 AM

Sort of makes me wonder if did we do the right thing by taking such a hands off approach.

Right. Instead of 2 countries fighting we could have literal WWIII between nuclear powers. Sounds like it would have been much better.

Would we though?  Russia vs Ukraine is a foregone conclusion.  Russia vs NATO is a stalemate.  If he attempted the later he would gain nothing.

Yeah, obviously he wouldn't want to attack NATO. But he didn't attack NATO, he attacked Ukraine. If NATO got involved, then he'd automatically be in a war with NATO. And NATO would completely overpower Russia eventually, except that's not even necessarily good news for NATO because he'd be desperate and desperation plus nukes is not a good combo.

In the event of a war between NATO and Russia I seriously doubt we'd do anything beyond forcing them out of whatever territory they tried to invade.  Russia is damn near impossible to invade.  The price of it eliminating that threat vs containing that  threat is extremely high.  My point is there's some reason to think that a conflict like that would be limited.

https://twitter.com/KevinRothrock/status/1496829730103963650?s=20&t=Ra-hodOvt-7H5jqhvgxYHQ

Anti-war solo pickets like this are popping up in cities across Russia. It’s not much but they’re arrested almost immediately, often upon leaving their homes when the cops know to expect them. Here’s Sofya Rusova, co-chair of Russia’s Trade Union of Journalists.

She's carrying a sign that says (in Russian, obv) “War with Ukraine is Russia’s disgrace.”


The protest video in the previous tweet I posted is many people, but I guess there are lots of people protesting by themselves. Standing outside with a sign. It's very brave of all of them, whether marching in a crowd or standing alone.

Quote from: Crouton on February 24, 2022, 09:45:59 AM

This entire time Zelensky has said the plan is to go all in with guerilla style warfare.  Whether that was a threat to deter an invasion or not who knows.

There's definitely gonna be a lot of guerilla warfare if he tries occupying the country. I think and hope Putin knows a war like that is unwinnable.

I think a lot of it depends on the character of the people of Ukraine.  Are they the sort of people who will fight down to the last man for their ideals?  Are they so enamored by modern comforts that they'd just accept this as a "change in management"?

They've supposedly either taken over or are taking over Chernobyl and the Kyiv airport.

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 24, 2022, 09:49:03 AM

Quote from: Crouton on February 24, 2022, 09:45:59 AM

This entire time Zelensky has said the plan is to go all in with guerilla style warfare.  Whether that was a threat to deter an invasion or not who knows.

There's definitely gonna be a lot of guerilla warfare if he tries occupying the country. I think and hope Putin knows a war like that is unwinnable.

I think a lot of it depends on the character of the people of Ukraine.  Are they the sort of people who will fight down to the last man for their ideals?  Are they so enamored by modern comforts that they'd just accept this as a "change in management"?

I think ethnic Ukrainians (especially west Ukraine) will. Ethnic minorities won't. That's why I think he won't try to occupy west Ukraine, I hope he is still reasonable.

Quote from: JJA on February 24, 2022, 08:20:07 AM

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 24, 2022, 07:18:06 AM

Quote from: JJA on February 24, 2022, 07:14:06 AM

Quote from: Lorddave on February 23, 2022, 09:26:31 PM

Yep.
Who said Putin wouldn't invade?  Cause now he is.

All the "Oh he isn't going to invade" people have now instantly switched to "Well he was forced to do it" and "It's not an invasion because Putin said it's not part of Ukraine anymore".

The dishonesty was 100% predictable.  I don't see anyone here who claimed he would never invade suddenly condemning Putin like they claimed they would. Just more excuses.

Russia needs to be turned into a pariah state until Putin gets overthrown or dies from his health problems.

I've not seen anyone say it's not invasion because it's not part of Ukraine, since he also invaded the part of Ukraine that is, according to him, part of Ukraine. Which is the whole Ukraine and there is surprisingly little resistance.

Why are you surprised?  What kind of resistance were you expecting?

Putin is shelling Ukraine's cities, and using bombs and missiles in the capital and airports. Ukraine anti-air is firing and shooting down some of it. What exactly do you expect the ground forces to do against missiles and shells and bombs?

Putin is murdering people right now, are you ready to condemn his actions yet?

Bruh they've, like, already taken control of a huge territory, and entire sections of the army have surrendered or defected. In a matter of hours. This wasn't supposed to happen. This is shaping up to he about as quick as the Taliban taking Afghanistan.

I already said Putin is also responsible for this and he is entirely responsible for attacking pretty much everything in Ukraine. He could have stopped this far earlier and the outcome would probably still have been good for him but he didn't.

The amount of glee you seem to have for a country getting it's citizens murdered and infrastructure destroyed by a much larger bully is pretty sad I have to say.

You said he's responsible but you seem to be doing a Trump here and expressing appreciation for his power/genius/manly chest.

Do you condemn what he's doing to Ukraine?

I think ethnic Ukrainians (especially west Ukraine) will. Ethnic minorities won't. That's why I think he won't try to occupy west Ukraine, I hope he is still reasonable.

The fact you think ANY of what he is doing is reasonable is pretty screwed up.

Russian forces have just taken Chernobyl:

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/russia-launches-invasion-of-ukraine-forces-trying-to-seize-site-of-chernobyl-nuclear-disaster-12550026

What the actual fuck?

JJA, I don't know why you are debate broing at this point and putting words in my mouth.

Russian forces have just taken Chernobyl:

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/russia-launches-invasion-of-ukraine-forces-trying-to-seize-site-of-chernobyl-nuclear-disaster-12550026

What the actual fuck?

Big tourist money from the miniseries Chernobyl on HBO.

Watch it if you haven't.  It's a really great show.

JJA, I don't know why you are debate broing at this point and putting words in my mouth.

Yeah, I have read most of your posts in this thread and I'm not seeing any "glee" over any of this. Some people think the only way to have a difference of opinion is to paint the other person as evil or something, by making shit up and then being against the shit they made up.  I see it on Twitter all the time. It makes it almost impossible to have a conversation about anything.

If you tell JJA he is strawmanning, he will accuse you of being obsessed with strawmen. lol

I sort of get JJA's frustration.  Not with Pez specifically.  I think we've just witnessed one of the greatest psyops in history.  Russia has convinced nearly all online lefties to defend Russia.  Even when Russia was quite clearly poised to crushed Ukraine into oblivion they kept denying it and saying it was the US that's saber rattling.

To be fair though most of these guys have come to Jesus and have acknowledged that Russia invading places is a bad thing.

This website seems really great for keeping up with all this, from people over there who also speak/write English so they're able to translate https://meduza.io/en/live/2022/02/24/invasion 

I sort of get JJA's frustration.  Not with Pez specifically.  I think we've just witnessed one of the greatest psyops in history.  Russia has convinced nearly all online lefties to defend Russia.  Even when Russia was quite clearly poised to crushed Ukraine into oblivion they kept denying it and saying it was the US that's saber rattling.

To be fair though most of these guys have come to Jesus and have acknowledged that Russia invading places is a bad thing.

That's so different from what I've seen. Mostly conservatives defending Russia, and lefties standing with Ukraine.  Tucker Carlson has been mooning over Putin for days. lol

I sort of get JJA's frustration.  Not with Pez specifically.  I think we've just witnessed one of the greatest psyops in history.  Russia has convinced nearly all online lefties to defend Russia.  Even when Russia was quite clearly poised to crushed Ukraine into oblivion they kept denying it and saying it was the US that's saber rattling.

To be fair though most of these guys have come to Jesus and have acknowledged that Russia invading places is a bad thing.

Yeah, I’ve seen a lot of that.  I mentioned the Stop the War Coalition making arses of themselves earlier.  Putin clearly doesn’t fear NATO stepping into this because he knows we’d be righty terrified of directly fighting Russian forces, so the idea that he’d be losing any sleep about the prospects of unprovoked invasion from Lativa or Estonia was never very convincing.

I sort of get JJA's frustration.  Not with Pez specifically.  I think we've just witnessed one of the greatest psyops in history.  Russia has convinced nearly all online lefties to defend Russia.  Even when Russia was quite clearly poised to crushed Ukraine into oblivion they kept denying it and saying it was the US that's saber rattling.

To be fair though most of these guys have come to Jesus and have acknowledged that Russia invading places is a bad thing.

I'm not really following American lefties etc but I did see most also did not think there would be a full scale invasion, I didn't see them thinking it would be a good thing. I've not seen a lot of people actually saying it's a good thing. Actually in Greece there is a few but not in English language social media. Honestly in hindsight I kinda see why he did end up attacking. It doesn't look nearly as high cost for him as I thought.

Quote from: Crouton on February 24, 2022, 10:26:41 AM

I sort of get JJA's frustration.  Not with Pez specifically.  I think we've just witnessed one of the greatest psyops in history.  Russia has convinced nearly all online lefties to defend Russia.  Even when Russia was quite clearly poised to crushed Ukraine into oblivion they kept denying it and saying it was the US that's saber rattling.

To be fair though most of these guys have come to Jesus and have acknowledged that Russia invading places is a bad thing.

Yeah, I’ve seen a lot of that.  I mentioned the Stop the War Coalition making arses of themselves earlier.  Putin clearly doesn’t fear NATO stepping into this because he knows we’d be righty terrified of directly fighting Russian forces, so the idea that he’d be losing any sleep about the prospects of unprovoked invasion from Lativa or Estonia was never very convincing.

The first two days it almost seemed like Biden was implying there would be military action if Ukraine was invaded. I actually got extremely relieved when I realized they wouldn't do that.

Quote from: Crouton on February 24, 2022, 10:26:41 AM

I sort of get JJA's frustration.  Not with Pez specifically.  I think we've just witnessed one of the greatest psyops in history.  Russia has convinced nearly all online lefties to defend Russia.  Even when Russia was quite clearly poised to crushed Ukraine into oblivion they kept denying it and saying it was the US that's saber rattling.

To be fair though most of these guys have come to Jesus and have acknowledged that Russia invading places is a bad thing.

That's so different from what I've seen. Mostly conservatives defending Russia, and lefties standing with Ukraine.  Tucker Carlson has been mooning over Putin for days. lol

In the UK it’s mainly coming from the more socialist left.  Funny how they seem to agree with America’s new right.

Quote from: Unconvinced on February 24, 2022, 10:38:40 AM

Quote from: Crouton on February 24, 2022, 10:26:41 AM

I sort of get JJA's frustration.  Not with Pez specifically.  I think we've just witnessed one of the greatest psyops in history.  Russia has convinced nearly all online lefties to defend Russia.  Even when Russia was quite clearly poised to crushed Ukraine into oblivion they kept denying it and saying it was the US that's saber rattling.

To be fair though most of these guys have come to Jesus and have acknowledged that Russia invading places is a bad thing.

Yeah, I’ve seen a lot of that.  I mentioned the Stop the War Coalition making arses of themselves earlier.  Putin clearly doesn’t fear NATO stepping into this because he knows we’d be righty terrified of directly fighting Russian forces, so the idea that he’d be losing any sleep about the prospects of unprovoked invasion from Lativa or Estonia was never very convincing.

The first two days it almost seemed like Biden was implying there would be military action if Ukraine was invaded. I actually got extremely relieved when I realized they wouldn't do that.

I know.  I also think we were probably both arguing for the sake of it a bit.

Quote from: Crouton on February 24, 2022, 10:26:41 AM

I sort of get JJA's frustration.  Not with Pez specifically.  I think we've just witnessed one of the greatest psyops in history.  Russia has convinced nearly all online lefties to defend Russia.  Even when Russia was quite clearly poised to crushed Ukraine into oblivion they kept denying it and saying it was the US that's saber rattling.

To be fair though most of these guys have come to Jesus and have acknowledged that Russia invading places is a bad thing.

That's so different from what I've seen. Mostly conservatives defending Russia, and lefties standing with Ukraine.  Tucker Carlson has been mooning over Putin for days. lol

I kinda do understand what Crouton is talking about, a number of leftists really doubted Russia would invade and thought it was a made up story by CIA.

And if I am honest I'm not sure I would say I stand with Ukraine (the government that is), I stand with Ukrainian people not getting blown to pieces. The Ukrainian government is responsible for plenty of shit and a lot of really dumb moves this decade. But this kind of thing is horrible.

Quote from: Pezevenk on February 24, 2022, 10:40:28 AM

Quote from: Unconvinced on February 24, 2022, 10:38:40 AM

Quote from: Crouton on February 24, 2022, 10:26:41 AM

I sort of get JJA's frustration.  Not with Pez specifically.  I think we've just witnessed one of the greatest psyops in history.  Russia has convinced nearly all online lefties to defend Russia.  Even when Russia was quite clearly poised to crushed Ukraine into oblivion they kept denying it and saying it was the US that's saber rattling.

To be fair though most of these guys have come to Jesus and have acknowledged that Russia invading places is a bad thing.

Yeah, I’ve seen a lot of that.  I mentioned the Stop the War Coalition making arses of themselves earlier.  Putin clearly doesn’t fear NATO stepping into this because he knows we’d be righty terrified of directly fighting Russian forces, so the idea that he’d be losing any sleep about the prospects of unprovoked invasion from Lativa or Estonia was never very convincing.

The first two days it almost seemed like Biden was implying there would be military action if Ukraine was invaded. I actually got extremely relieved when I realized they wouldn't do that.

I know.  I also think we were probably both arguing for the sake of it a bit.

There was definitely some of that.

On the one hand I hope this is quickly over, on the other hand I hope it's not so quickly over so that at least the consequences have the time to become apparent and quell the initial excitement.

Apparently the Russian stock market collapsed but I don't read Russian so I don't know https://www.interfax.ru/business/824299 

If this is true, it's probably because of all the sanctions, but what I want to know is will this put pressure on Putin to stop invading Ukraine, or will he even care.

Apparently the Russian stock market collapsed but I don't read Russian so I don't know https://www.interfax.ru/business/824299 

If this is true, it's probably because of all the sanctions, but what I want to know is will this put pressure on Putin to stop invading Ukraine, or will he even care.

Doubt he will care that much, stock market is temporary, what he is going for is really long term.

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on February 24, 2022, 10:37:57 AM

Quote from: Crouton on February 24, 2022, 10:26:41 AM

I sort of get JJA's frustration.  Not with Pez specifically.  I think we've just witnessed one of the greatest psyops in history.  Russia has convinced nearly all online lefties to defend Russia.  Even when Russia was quite clearly poised to crushed Ukraine into oblivion they kept denying it and saying it was the US that's saber rattling.

To be fair though most of these guys have come to Jesus and have acknowledged that Russia invading places is a bad thing.

That's so different from what I've seen. Mostly conservatives defending Russia, and lefties standing with Ukraine.  Tucker Carlson has been mooning over Putin for days. lol

In the UK it’s mainly coming from the more socialist left.  Funny how they seem to agree with America’s new right.

I'm sure it is for very different reasons, though. The US conservatives are only pro Russia because of Trump and his googly eyes for Putin. 

I've only seen a handful of real anti-war lefties speak out against this war, even then they have to make sure everyone knows they've always been anti-war and they're not suddenly Trump fans.

Quote from: Unconvinced on February 24, 2022, 10:41:55 AM

Quote from: Space Cowgirl on February 24, 2022, 10:37:57 AM

Quote from: Crouton on February 24, 2022, 10:26:41 AM

I sort of get JJA's frustration.  Not with Pez specifically.  I think we've just witnessed one of the greatest psyops in history.  Russia has convinced nearly all online lefties to defend Russia.  Even when Russia was quite clearly poised to crushed Ukraine into oblivion they kept denying it and saying it was the US that's saber rattling.

To be fair though most of these guys have come to Jesus and have acknowledged that Russia invading places is a bad thing.

That's so different from what I've seen. Mostly conservatives defending Russia, and lefties standing with Ukraine.  Tucker Carlson has been mooning over Putin for days. lol

In the UK it’s mainly coming from the more socialist left.  Funny how they seem to agree with America’s new right.

I'm sure it is for very different reasons, though. The US conservatives are only pro Russia because of Trump and his googly eyes for Putin. 

I've only seen a handful of real anti-war lefties speak out against this war, even then they have to make sure everyone knows they've always been anti-war and they're not suddenly Trump fans.

Its not just Trump but anti-Biden.
Buden isn't blasting rockets so he's weak.
If he was blasting rockets, he'd be dragging America into another war.
The Right is just anti-left at this point.
Same with the left, really.

Yeah, there's a lot of anti-Biden involved too. Plus, there is a distrust of the media in general, but especially when it comes to war. The media seemed pretty hyped about this war, and I think a lot of people were like, you tricked us about the WMDs, we're not getting tricked again!