War

  • 5166 Replies
  • 623910 Views
*

Pezevenk

  • 15914
  • +50/-57
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: War
« Reply #150 on: February 15, 2022, 12:43:34 PM »
But that's not the point of NATO...

I don't know if you watched it but after Putin met Macron he very specifically warned that if Ukraine joined NATO and then tried to take back Crimea, then the NATO countries would be dragged into a war with Russia.

Woah there. Joining NATO and starting a war to take back Crimea are two very different things.

That's like warning the Ukraine not to join NATO and launch biological weapons all over the world. The one does not automatically follow the other.

Only time will tell if Putin is really as crazy as he is trying to look or if it's all posturing. If he's decided he wants to invade, nothing anyone says is going to stop him.

Yes, but you understand that Russia is worried that Ukraine will use its NATO status to take back Crimea as well as install more US military bases close to Russia. As for "starting" a war, there is no need to start one, they are STILL in war since 2014, and Ukraine considers Crimea to be an occupied territory. Of course Ukraine would not automatically try to invade Crimea if they joined NATO but Russia is worried they would be in a far better position to do something like that.

No, I don't understand that.  Putin is a smart guy, he knows as well as anyone else NATO doesn't want to get involved with a military invasion of Crimeria.

Poor Putin.

If he didn't want to have to worry about all this then maybe he shouldn't have annexed part of another country.  ::)

Is he smart or is he crazy? I'm confused now.

Ukraine definitely wants Crimea back. And NATO does want Putin to lose Crimea. As I said, of course they won't automatically do it but they'd definitely be in a far better position to do it.
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

*

Crouton

  • Flat Earth Inspector General of High Fashion Crimes and Misdemeanors
  • 17037
  • +5/-4
  • He who walks away from Omelas
Re: War
« Reply #151 on: February 15, 2022, 01:03:42 PM »
NATO is for "preventing invasions" about as much as bath salts are for your bath... Like, yeah, that's the idea on the label but that's not the point...

Also I... Think you're kind of confused because NATO was created by a few western countries and later dominated by the US and let's just say neither the US nor Canada are anywhere close to Russia, and most of the original treaty countries were never in any real risk of invasion by the USSR and didn't share any borders. In fact Canada and the US are about as far from Russia as they can be. Greece is in NATO too. I can assure you that absolutely nobody in Greece has ever seriously had the concern that Russia may invade us. NATO was a cold war invention of the US, the point of which was to create a "western bloc" to counter the USSR primarily and serve the foreign policy interests of the US more broadly. The USSR had its own "NATO" in response, the Warsaw pact.

As for the invading other countries part, how common do you think what you are describing is? Russia has not done something like what you are describing to anyone besides Ukraine for a long time, and what is often missed regarding Ukraine is that a big part of the conflict is essentially a civil irredentist conflict between ethnic groups within Ukraine, like the Chechen wars in Russia or the troubles in Ireland. You're making it seem like Russia just keeps invading neighboring countries and is trying to take over everyone when it's just not in a position to do that neither really intending to, barring a few specific long standing disputes involving Russian populations in other places and occasionally sending troops to other places at the request of allied countries, like in Syria. Russia tries to exert influence a lot but not typically by invading other places, it's just not something that common.

As for the NATO thing, both Greece and Turkey are in NATO. And yet Turkey disputes some Greek islands, and is also occupying part of Cyprus. You probably don't know it but a couple years ago many people were worried there would be some sort of incident between Greece and Turkey which could escalate to war, kind of similar to the current stand off in Ukraine. But neither Turkey nor Greece are concerned about a Russian invasion. So you have countries within NATO (supposedly to protect member states from invasions by Russia, right?) that are not threatened at all by Russia, and are instead primarily threatened by other countries within NATO. And obviously NATO did not freak out about any of this nearly as much as it's freaking out about a non-NATO country, where a large component of the issue is essentially a civil conflict between ethnic groups. Does any of this sound normal to you?

I agree that North America is impossible to invade but we're not impervious to nukes.  If I recall in the aftermath of ww2, Russia gobbled up everything between Moscow and Berlin.  That seems like a legitimate cause for concern to me.  War is a part of foreign policy so I suppose you're correct about NATO serving our foreign policy interests.  Obviously Greece isn't concerned about Russia invading them.  They're in NATO.

According to Wikipedia since 1991 Russia has involved itself in 13 wars.  I'm not familiar with all of these conflicts but quite a few look like they're annexing territory or setting puppet governments.  I've read up Crimea a little.  There's some truth to it looking like a civil war in some ways.  But this doesn't negate the fact that Russia most definitely annexed that territory through force.  As for protecting Russian populations in other countries... are you really going to make me point out that this is the same bogus reasoning that Hitler used to invade other countries?

Turkey is a bad actor.  We should probably kick them out of NATO.  I don't know a lot about this Cypress situation.  Perhaps there's a lot of Turks in those areas and Erdogan is just trying to protect them.  I'll have to read up on it.
Intelligentia et magnanimitas vincvnt violentiam et desperationem.
The truth behind NASA's budget

*

Pezevenk

  • 15914
  • +50/-57
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: War
« Reply #152 on: February 15, 2022, 01:03:51 PM »
I think Biden's address was mostly alright and probably encouraging towards a resolution of the crisis.
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

*

JJA

  • 6873
  • +2/-6
  • Math is math!
Re: War
« Reply #153 on: February 15, 2022, 01:31:58 PM »
But that's not the point of NATO...

I don't know if you watched it but after Putin met Macron he very specifically warned that if Ukraine joined NATO and then tried to take back Crimea, then the NATO countries would be dragged into a war with Russia.

Woah there. Joining NATO and starting a war to take back Crimea are two very different things.

That's like warning the Ukraine not to join NATO and launch biological weapons all over the world. The one does not automatically follow the other.

Only time will tell if Putin is really as crazy as he is trying to look or if it's all posturing. If he's decided he wants to invade, nothing anyone says is going to stop him.

Yes, but you understand that Russia is worried that Ukraine will use its NATO status to take back Crimea as well as install more US military bases close to Russia. As for "starting" a war, there is no need to start one, they are STILL in war since 2014, and Ukraine considers Crimea to be an occupied territory. Of course Ukraine would not automatically try to invade Crimea if they joined NATO but Russia is worried they would be in a far better position to do something like that.

No, I don't understand that.  Putin is a smart guy, he knows as well as anyone else NATO doesn't want to get involved with a military invasion of Crimeria.

Poor Putin.

If he didn't want to have to worry about all this then maybe he shouldn't have annexed part of another country.  ::)

Is he smart or is he crazy? I'm confused now.

Ukraine definitely wants Crimea back. And NATO does want Putin to lose Crimea. As I said, of course they won't automatically do it but they'd definitely be in a far better position to do it.

He can certainly be both. But don't forget where he comes from, don't forget what his previous job was.

I'm in a better position to punch a baby than another baby, but that doesn't mean I am actually going to do it. NATO is in a better position to to a lot of things they have no intention of doing.

NATO has zero desire to be part of a war in Crimera. There is no upside to that for any NATO member country, except the Ukrane if they join. They would have to do it alone ort not at all and they would have done so by now if that was their plan. NATO knows helping them would just wind up with lots of dead soldiers and a very high possibility of it escalating out of control.

Putin knows this.


*

Pezevenk

  • 15914
  • +50/-57
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: War
« Reply #154 on: February 15, 2022, 01:38:16 PM »
I agree that North America is impossible to invade but we're not impervious to nukes.  If I recall in the aftermath of ww2, Russia gobbled up everything between Moscow and Berlin.

That's not exactly true, they basically replaced the void of government with USSR allied governments. Kind of similar to what happened in Japan. Of course many people in these countries now don't like that because they thought Russia was taking advantage of them.

Quote
    Obviously Greece isn't concerned about Russia invading them.  They're in NATO.

There was never such a threat. Greece was always afraid of Turkey in terms of external threats, never Russia. In fact Greece has certain cultural similarities with Russia and historical ties, so I'd say it's one of the countries that most people here don't look at as "enemies". We don't have bad relations with Russia either.

Quote
According to Wikipedia since 1991 Russia has involved itself in 13 wars.  I'm not familiar with all of these conflicts but quite a few look like they're annexing territory or setting puppet governments.

The only time they've done that was Ukraine. The rest were either civil wars vs separatists within Russia (Chechen wars), or wars in Syria, vs ISIL etc. The only similar thing is their help toward Ossetia and Abkhazia vs Georgia issue, but they didn't annex anything. 

Quote
As for protecting Russian populations in other countries... are you really going to make me point out that this is the same bogus reasoning that Hitler used to invade other countries?

But that's just not true...

Quote
Turkey is a bad actor.  We should probably kick them out of NATO.  I don't know a lot about this Cypress situation.  Perhaps there's a lot of Turks in those areas and Erdogan is just trying to protect them.  I'll have to read up on it.
That's actually part of the reason they invaded Cyprus in the first place, the Turkish Cypriot minority... But obviously it wasn't Erdogan, he was a kid back then. Erdogan is disputing places that have no Turkish population now. Actually some of them have no population, period.

When that happened both Turkey and Greece were in NATO, and yet they had a war. The reason was that the US puppet dictatorship of Greece was the worst possible actor to help Cyprus transition from British colony to either Greek territory or independent country (which would have been the best thing). They decided to just organize a coup in Cyprus and install their hyper nationalist buddies, at which point Turkey was like alright, Cyprus has a minority of Turkish Cypriots (about 18%), we're gonna invade to protect them. It's kind of similar to what happened in Ukraine, except in Cyprus the Turkish minority was not concentrated in a specific area where they were a majority, they were more spread out. But of course Turkey imported a bunch of Turks after the invasion. So all of this happened between two countries which are both in NATO (and a third one I guess but it wasn't a proper country yet), and NATO didn't really do that much. So this should make people consider why NATO cares so much suddenly about some place which isn't even in NATO. And again, this whole thing would have probably been avoided had shitty nationalists not been involved and if it was just left to be a sovereign independent country with balanced representation for all groups. The same kind of mistake led to increased
Russian separatism in Ukraine and the annexation of Crimea.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2022, 01:49:33 PM by Pezevenk »
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

*

Pezevenk

  • 15914
  • +50/-57
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: War
« Reply #155 on: February 15, 2022, 01:45:22 PM »
But that's not the point of NATO...

I don't know if you watched it but after Putin met Macron he very specifically warned that if Ukraine joined NATO and then tried to take back Crimea, then the NATO countries would be dragged into a war with Russia.

Woah there. Joining NATO and starting a war to take back Crimea are two very different things.

That's like warning the Ukraine not to join NATO and launch biological weapons all over the world. The one does not automatically follow the other.

Only time will tell if Putin is really as crazy as he is trying to look or if it's all posturing. If he's decided he wants to invade, nothing anyone says is going to stop him.

Yes, but you understand that Russia is worried that Ukraine will use its NATO status to take back Crimea as well as install more US military bases close to Russia. As for "starting" a war, there is no need to start one, they are STILL in war since 2014, and Ukraine considers Crimea to be an occupied territory. Of course Ukraine would not automatically try to invade Crimea if they joined NATO but Russia is worried they would be in a far better position to do something like that.

No, I don't understand that.  Putin is a smart guy, he knows as well as anyone else NATO doesn't want to get involved with a military invasion of Crimeria.

Poor Putin.

If he didn't want to have to worry about all this then maybe he shouldn't have annexed part of another country.  ::)

Is he smart or is he crazy? I'm confused now.

Ukraine definitely wants Crimea back. And NATO does want Putin to lose Crimea. As I said, of course they won't automatically do it but they'd definitely be in a far better position to do it.

He can certainly be both. But don't forget where he comes from, don't forget what his previous job was.

I'm in a better position to punch a baby than another baby, but that doesn't mean I am actually going to do it. NATO is in a better position to to a lot of things they have no intention of doing.

NATO has zero desire to be part of a war in Crimera. There is no upside to that for any NATO member country, except the Ukrane if they join. They would have to do it alone ort not at all and they would have done so by now if that was their plan. NATO knows helping them would just wind up with lots of dead soldiers and a very high possibility of it escalating out of control.

Putin knows this.

1) Calling it "the Ukraine" actually pisses Ukrainians off because it means "the borderland" and it implies it's just Russia's borderland, not its own country.

2) NATO and specifically the US would totally want to retake Crimea, the only reason they wouldn't do it is because it would be more risky than important. Obviously the US wants to expand its sphere of influence and contain Russia. But literally all of the reasons you bring up for NATO not to invade Crimea also apply to Russia not invading Ukraine...
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

*

JJA

  • 6873
  • +2/-6
  • Math is math!
Re: War
« Reply #156 on: February 15, 2022, 02:05:49 PM »
But that's not the point of NATO...

I don't know if you watched it but after Putin met Macron he very specifically warned that if Ukraine joined NATO and then tried to take back Crimea, then the NATO countries would be dragged into a war with Russia.

Woah there. Joining NATO and starting a war to take back Crimea are two very different things.

That's like warning the Ukraine not to join NATO and launch biological weapons all over the world. The one does not automatically follow the other.

Only time will tell if Putin is really as crazy as he is trying to look or if it's all posturing. If he's decided he wants to invade, nothing anyone says is going to stop him.

Yes, but you understand that Russia is worried that Ukraine will use its NATO status to take back Crimea as well as install more US military bases close to Russia. As for "starting" a war, there is no need to start one, they are STILL in war since 2014, and Ukraine considers Crimea to be an occupied territory. Of course Ukraine would not automatically try to invade Crimea if they joined NATO but Russia is worried they would be in a far better position to do something like that.

No, I don't understand that.  Putin is a smart guy, he knows as well as anyone else NATO doesn't want to get involved with a military invasion of Crimeria.

Poor Putin.

If he didn't want to have to worry about all this then maybe he shouldn't have annexed part of another country.  ::)

Is he smart or is he crazy? I'm confused now.

Ukraine definitely wants Crimea back. And NATO does want Putin to lose Crimea. As I said, of course they won't automatically do it but they'd definitely be in a far better position to do it.

He can certainly be both. But don't forget where he comes from, don't forget what his previous job was.

I'm in a better position to punch a baby than another baby, but that doesn't mean I am actually going to do it. NATO is in a better position to to a lot of things they have no intention of doing.

NATO has zero desire to be part of a war in Crimera. There is no upside to that for any NATO member country, except the Ukrane if they join. They would have to do it alone ort not at all and they would have done so by now if that was their plan. NATO knows helping them would just wind up with lots of dead soldiers and a very high possibility of it escalating out of control.

Putin knows this.

1) Calling it "the Ukraine" actually pisses Ukrainians off because it means "the borderland" and it implies it's just Russia's borderland, not its own country.

Interesting, you learn something new every day.

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-18233844

2) NATO and specifically the US would totally want to retake Crimea, the only reason they wouldn't do it is because it would be more risky than important. Obviously the US wants to expand its sphere of influence and contain Russia. But literally all of the reasons you bring up for NATO not to invade Crimea also apply to Russia not invading Ukraine...

No.  If Russia invades Ukrane there is little chance of the Unites States attacking Russia with military force in return.  If the Unites States invaded Crimera, it would be a near certainty that Russia will become involved.

It literally is not at all the same.

Putin isn't doing any of this because he's afraid NATO will try and take back the country he invaded. He just thinks he can get away with it again, and might very well.

There are no excuses here, Putin is just a greedy bitch.  It has nothing to do with NATO's non-existent plans to invade Crimera. Not sure why people want to make Putin to be the good guy here, he started all of this, he's the one massing troops.


*

JJA

  • 6873
  • +2/-6
  • Math is math!
Re: War
« Reply #157 on: February 15, 2022, 02:10:30 PM »
And here is is.  The excuse.  At least he didn't blow up a building this time.

https://www.businessinsider.com/putin-claims-genocide-happening-in-donbas-region-of-ukraine-2022-2?r=US&IR=T

Guessing this is what he's going to use to justify the invasion.

*

Pezevenk

  • 15914
  • +50/-57
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: War
« Reply #158 on: February 15, 2022, 02:17:30 PM »
But that's not the point of NATO...

I don't know if you watched it but after Putin met Macron he very specifically warned that if Ukraine joined NATO and then tried to take back Crimea, then the NATO countries would be dragged into a war with Russia.

Woah there. Joining NATO and starting a war to take back Crimea are two very different things.

That's like warning the Ukraine not to join NATO and launch biological weapons all over the world. The one does not automatically follow the other.

Only time will tell if Putin is really as crazy as he is trying to look or if it's all posturing. If he's decided he wants to invade, nothing anyone says is going to stop him.

Yes, but you understand that Russia is worried that Ukraine will use its NATO status to take back Crimea as well as install more US military bases close to Russia. As for "starting" a war, there is no need to start one, they are STILL in war since 2014, and Ukraine considers Crimea to be an occupied territory. Of course Ukraine would not automatically try to invade Crimea if they joined NATO but Russia is worried they would be in a far better position to do something like that.

No, I don't understand that.  Putin is a smart guy, he knows as well as anyone else NATO doesn't want to get involved with a military invasion of Crimeria.

Poor Putin.

If he didn't want to have to worry about all this then maybe he shouldn't have annexed part of another country.  ::)

Is he smart or is he crazy? I'm confused now.

Ukraine definitely wants Crimea back. And NATO does want Putin to lose Crimea. As I said, of course they won't automatically do it but they'd definitely be in a far better position to do it.

He can certainly be both. But don't forget where he comes from, don't forget what his previous job was.

I'm in a better position to punch a baby than another baby, but that doesn't mean I am actually going to do it. NATO is in a better position to to a lot of things they have no intention of doing.

NATO has zero desire to be part of a war in Crimera. There is no upside to that for any NATO member country, except the Ukrane if they join. They would have to do it alone ort not at all and they would have done so by now if that was their plan. NATO knows helping them would just wind up with lots of dead soldiers and a very high possibility of it escalating out of control.

Putin knows this.

1) Calling it "the Ukraine" actually pisses Ukrainians off because it means "the borderland" and it implies it's just Russia's borderland, not its own country.

Interesting, you learn something new every day.

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-18233844

2) NATO and specifically the US would totally want to retake Crimea, the only reason they wouldn't do it is because it would be more risky than important. Obviously the US wants to expand its sphere of influence and contain Russia. But literally all of the reasons you bring up for NATO not to invade Crimea also apply to Russia not invading Ukraine...

No.  If Russia invades Ukrane there is little chance of the Unites States attacking Russia with military force in return.  If the Unites States invaded Crimera, it would be a near certainty that Russia will become involved.

It literally is not at all the same.

Putin isn't doing any of this because he's afraid NATO will try and take back the country he invaded. He just thinks he can get away with it again, and might very well.

There are no excuses here, Putin is just a greedy bitch.  It has nothing to do with NATO's non-existent plans to invade Crimera. Not sure why people want to make Putin to be the good guy here, he started all of this, he's the one massing troops.
Regardless of whether or not the US gets directly militarily involved (which is more likely than you think given the reactions), it would not be at all easy for Russia to invade Ukraine. Ukraine is a big country that has been preparing for a potential invasion for many years now.
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

*

Pezevenk

  • 15914
  • +50/-57
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: War
« Reply #159 on: February 15, 2022, 02:20:32 PM »
And here is is.  The excuse.  At least he didn't blow up a building this time.

https://www.businessinsider.com/putin-claims-genocide-happening-in-donbas-region-of-ukraine-2022-2?r=US&IR=T

Guessing this is what he's going to use to justify the invasion.

That's not new, he said that as he was saying he would withdraw troops.
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

*

JJA

  • 6873
  • +2/-6
  • Math is math!
Re: War
« Reply #160 on: February 15, 2022, 03:18:59 PM »
And here is is.  The excuse.  At least he didn't blow up a building this time.

https://www.businessinsider.com/putin-claims-genocide-happening-in-donbas-region-of-ukraine-2022-2?r=US&IR=T

Guessing this is what he's going to use to justify the invasion.

That's not new, he said that as he was saying he would withdraw troops.

It is new, he said that today.  As for the troops. Yeah, right. Putin is the last person to take at his word.

The world will believe it when we actually see the troops leaving.

Putin's comments on Tuesday came as Russia said that it was pulling back an unspecified number of its troops from Ukraine's border — a claim met with extreme skepticism by Ukraine and the West.

*

sokarul

  • 19303
  • +1/-1
  • Extra Racist
Re: War
« Reply #161 on: February 15, 2022, 04:50:31 PM »
I was told about this canal in a video. Looked it up. Ukraine cut off water after Crimea was taken.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Crimean_Canal#Since_the_2014_Russian_annexation_of_Crimea

"After the Russian annexation of Crimea, Ukrainian authorities greatly cut the volume of water flowing into Crimea via the canal, citing a huge outstanding debt on water supplies owed by the peninsula. This caused the peninsula's agricultural harvest which is heavily dependent on irrigation to fail in 2014.[2][3]
...
These official statistics contrast with reports of a massive shrinkage in the area under cultivation in Crimea, from 130,000 hectares in 2013 to just 14,000 in 2017,[10] and an empty canal and a nearly dry reservoir resulting in widespread water shortages,[11][12][13] with water only being available for three to five hours a day in 2021.[12] That same year, the New York Times cited senior American officials as saying that securing Crimea's water supply could be an objective of a possible incursion by Russia into Ukraine.[14][15] "
ANNIHILATOR OF  SHIFTER

It's no slur if it's fact.

?

Unconvinced

  • 4030
  • +48/-44
Re: War
« Reply #162 on: February 16, 2022, 02:13:09 AM »
[

NATO is for "preventing invasions" about as much as bath salts are for your bath... Like, yeah, that's the idea on the label but that's not the point...

Also I... Think you're kind of confused because NATO was created by a few western countries and later dominated by the US and let's just say neither the US nor Canada are anywhere close to Russia, and most of the original treaty countries were never in any real risk of invasion by the USSR and didn't share any borders. In fact Canada and the US are about as far from Russia as they can be. Greece is in NATO too. I can assure you that absolutely nobody in Greece has ever seriously had the concern that Russia may invade us. NATO was a cold war invention of the US, the point of which was to create a "western bloc" to counter the USSR primarily and serve the foreign policy interests of the US more broadly. The USSR had its own "NATO" in response, the Warsaw pact.

As for the invading other countries part, how common do you think what you are describing is? Russia has not done something like what you are describing to anyone besides Ukraine for a long time, and what is often missed regarding Ukraine is that a big part of the conflict is essentially a civil irredentist conflict between ethnic groups within Ukraine, like the Chechen wars in Russia or the troubles in Ireland. You're making it seem like Russia just keeps invading neighboring countries and is trying to take over everyone when it's just not in a position to do that neither really intending to, barring a few specific long standing disputes involving Russian populations in other places and occasionally sending troops to other places at the request of allied countries, like in Syria. Russia tries to exert influence a lot but not typically by invading other places, it's just not something that common.

As for the NATO thing, both Greece and Turkey are in NATO. And yet Turkey disputes some Greek islands, and is also occupying part of Cyprus. You probably don't know it but a couple years ago many people were worried there would be some sort of incident between Greece and Turkey which could escalate to war, kind of similar to the current stand off in Ukraine. But neither Turkey nor Greece are concerned about a Russian invasion. So you have countries within NATO (supposedly to protect member states from invasions by Russia, right?) that are not threatened at all by Russia, and are instead primarily threatened by other countries within NATO. And obviously NATO did not freak out about any of this nearly as much as it's freaking out about a non-NATO country, where a large component of the issue is essentially a civil conflict between ethnic groups. Does any of this sound normal to you?

NATO was indeed a defensive pact to counter the threat (real or perceived) of Soviet advancement through Europe.

Many countries, including Greece, were bordered by Soviet satellite states, which were little more than puppet governments, backed by significant red army presence that never left after the Second World War (Yugoslavia was more independent though).  The Greek civil war was arguably the first proxy war of the early Cold War, with the communists receiving support from Tito’s Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Albania. 

NATO was formed initially in response to the coup in Czechoslovakia, where the communists had a significant minority in government (through democratic elections), but were losing public support. They did however control most of the military, police as well as armed militias. President Beneš fearing all out civil war and a pretext for Soviet occupation (and they did have troops ready to support) conceded to communist demands to form a new government.  Of course the Soviets did invade later in 1968 in response to attempts at more liberal reforms.

It’s easy to imagine since the Soviet Union collapsed, that NATO are the big bad in everything, but the Cold War was quite evenly  matched, with Soviets propping up governments and supporting revolutions and coups, backed by the threat of military intervention.  Both sides were at it, and both sides had reason to fear the other. 

Out of interest, what do you think of Turkish invasion of the North Cyprus?  Was that a legitimate response to the coup?

*

Pezevenk

  • 15914
  • +50/-57
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: War
« Reply #163 on: February 16, 2022, 03:17:46 AM »
[

NATO is for "preventing invasions" about as much as bath salts are for your bath... Like, yeah, that's the idea on the label but that's not the point...

Also I... Think you're kind of confused because NATO was created by a few western countries and later dominated by the US and let's just say neither the US nor Canada are anywhere close to Russia, and most of the original treaty countries were never in any real risk of invasion by the USSR and didn't share any borders. In fact Canada and the US are about as far from Russia as they can be. Greece is in NATO too. I can assure you that absolutely nobody in Greece has ever seriously had the concern that Russia may invade us. NATO was a cold war invention of the US, the point of which was to create a "western bloc" to counter the USSR primarily and serve the foreign policy interests of the US more broadly. The USSR had its own "NATO" in response, the Warsaw pact.

As for the invading other countries part, how common do you think what you are describing is? Russia has not done something like what you are describing to anyone besides Ukraine for a long time, and what is often missed regarding Ukraine is that a big part of the conflict is essentially a civil irredentist conflict between ethnic groups within Ukraine, like the Chechen wars in Russia or the troubles in Ireland. You're making it seem like Russia just keeps invading neighboring countries and is trying to take over everyone when it's just not in a position to do that neither really intending to, barring a few specific long standing disputes involving Russian populations in other places and occasionally sending troops to other places at the request of allied countries, like in Syria. Russia tries to exert influence a lot but not typically by invading other places, it's just not something that common.

As for the NATO thing, both Greece and Turkey are in NATO. And yet Turkey disputes some Greek islands, and is also occupying part of Cyprus. You probably don't know it but a couple years ago many people were worried there would be some sort of incident between Greece and Turkey which could escalate to war, kind of similar to the current stand off in Ukraine. But neither Turkey nor Greece are concerned about a Russian invasion. So you have countries within NATO (supposedly to protect member states from invasions by Russia, right?) that are not threatened at all by Russia, and are instead primarily threatened by other countries within NATO. And obviously NATO did not freak out about any of this nearly as much as it's freaking out about a non-NATO country, where a large component of the issue is essentially a civil conflict between ethnic groups. Does any of this sound normal to you?

NATO was indeed a defensive pact to counter the threat (real or perceived) of Soviet advancement through Europe.

Many countries, including Greece, were bordered by Soviet satellite states, which were little more than puppet governments, backed by significant red army presence that never left after the Second World War (Yugoslavia was more independent though).  The Greek civil war was arguably the first proxy war of the early Cold War, with the communists receiving support from Tito’s Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Albania.

Communists during the Greek civil war received very little external support. Basically the only support there was was limited supply of weapons, as well as helping communist forces find shelter on the other side of the borders. They asked for more support but the USSR was not interested in giving it to them at that point. The main external agents involved in the conflict were the UK and later the US (fun fact, the Greek civil war was considered to have been one of the first times Napalm bombs were used, some people think it was the first but in fact they had seen limited use during late WWII). Yugoslavia wasn't "more independent", it was pretty much completely independent after a certain point. Yugoslavia was its own thing, as was Albania and Romania eventually. They were not USSR satellite states, and at some points even had pretty bad relations with the USSR. But you did touch on something important. The Greek government wasn't worried about a Russian invasion. It was more worried about INTERNAL conflicts with communists, and it wanted to align with the western bloc. Similarly, Spain for example had no borders with USSR aligned countries at all, but faced potential internal conflicts and wanted to take a side.

Quote
It’s easy to imagine since the Soviet Union collapsed, that NATO are the big bad in everything, but the Cold War was quite evenly  matched,

It was most definitely not evenly matched. At no point did the USSR have remotely as much power as NATO. But what governments were worried about was mostly the internal threat. The entire idea was to keep communists away from power, since in many countries including Greece, they had pretty broad support (especially in Italy where they seemed very likely to win, which eventually led to Operation Gladio and similar operations).

Quote
Out of interest, what do you think of Turkish invasion of the North Cyprus?  Was that a legitimate response to the coup?
It was an expected response, but not a legitimate response, as they ended up occupying a large part of Cyprus which they basically ethnically cleansed of its majority by forcing them out of their homes and replacing them with populations imported from Turkey, not to talk about the war crimes (although the other side also committed numerous). At the end of the day, they split an island nation which had never been split in history in two.

There was actually two invasions, the first captured a very small part of the island, they didn't like the terms in the negotiations so they invaded again (after the junta in Greece had collapsed) and captured about a third of it and created a Turkish Cypriot state, when they ostensibly were trying to protect the integrity and independence of Cyprus. But overall I consider both the Greek junta-Greek Cypriot EOKA-B and Turkey to be at fault for what happened.

Through it all NATO just didn't really care at all because the point was never to protect countries from external threats, it was to expand the reach of the western bloc and restrict communism. Similarly now the US cares about restricting Russia. But when Turkey invaded Cyprus, or when their puppet government ordered to coup Makarios, they didn't care. Like, seriously, why is the Donetsk/Crimea situation, a conflict between non-NATO countries so important for NATO but the invasion and occupation of Northern Cyprus, a conflict between 2 NATO countries and one that isn't technically in NATO isn't?

I frankly consider it ridiculous that there are such conflicts between NATO countries and yet we're supposed to take NATO seriously as a defensive mechanism. Like, Erdogan is disputing Aegean islands, is trying to reopen Varosha in Cyprus (which is currently a ghost town since it's on a "dead zone" following negotiations) and regularly violating Greek airspace. NATO doesn't do nearly enough to resolve the conflict and that's between NATO countries (tbh that's probably for the better because if they did they'd probably mess it up). France and the US simply use the conflict to make Greece buy weapons from them. On the one hand I understand they don't want to alienate Turkey. So why do they want to alienate Russia so bad?

Also, supposedly NATO can only operate if a NATO country has been attacked. But if that is the case, why was Yugoslavia bombed when no NATO countries were attacked? Kinda makes the mission statement look ridiculous.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2022, 03:42:26 AM by Pezevenk »
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

*

Space Cowgirl

  • MOM
  • Planar Moderator
  • 52320
  • +97/-65
  • Official FE Recruiter
Re: War
« Reply #164 on: February 16, 2022, 07:41:36 AM »
https://twitter.com/MuradGazdiev/status/1493862768818151425?s=20&t=rupbwfbEOXouymABLMl2qA
Quote
The Russian Foreign Ministry has called on Western media outlets to publish a full list of dates on which Russia will invade Ukraine for the year ahead, so Russian diplomats can schedule their vacations accordingly.

This is not satire. They did this

They are trolling.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

*

JJA

  • 6873
  • +2/-6
  • Math is math!
Re: War
« Reply #165 on: February 16, 2022, 07:45:26 AM »
https://twitter.com/MuradGazdiev/status/1493862768818151425?s=20&t=rupbwfbEOXouymABLMl2qA
Quote
The Russian Foreign Ministry has called on Western media outlets to publish a full list of dates on which Russia will invade Ukraine for the year ahead, so Russian diplomats can schedule their vacations accordingly.

This is not satire. They did this

They are trolling.

I seriously hope the troop buildup is just trolling too.  I'd be very happy if they all get withdrawn and the USA, Biden, the entire Democratic party and myself and everyone else who was concerned are proven to be wrong and foolish.

#PutinGotMe

*

Space Cowgirl

  • MOM
  • Planar Moderator
  • 52320
  • +97/-65
  • Official FE Recruiter
Re: War
« Reply #166 on: February 16, 2022, 07:54:44 AM »
Well it could be trolling, but in a different way. Putin might enjoy freaking the world out now and then, or he could be joking around and then BAM the invasion happens.

I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

*

Crouton

  • Flat Earth Inspector General of High Fashion Crimes and Misdemeanors
  • 17037
  • +5/-4
  • He who walks away from Omelas
Re: War
« Reply #167 on: February 16, 2022, 08:05:04 AM »
https://twitter.com/MuradGazdiev/status/1493862768818151425?s=20&t=rupbwfbEOXouymABLMl2qA
Quote
The Russian Foreign Ministry has called on Western media outlets to publish a full list of dates on which Russia will invade Ukraine for the year ahead, so Russian diplomats can schedule their vacations accordingly.

This is not satire. They did this

They are trolling.

I've gotta respect them.  Russia is a world class troll.

It reminds me of this incident in the space race.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Race

Quote
Eisenhower ordered project Vanguard to move up its timetable and launch its satellite much sooner than originally planned.[49] The December 6, 1957 Project Vanguard launch failure occurred at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florida. It was a monumental failure, exploding a few seconds after launch, and it became an international joke. The satellite appeared in newspapers under the names Flopnik, Stayputnik, Kaputnik,[50] and Dudnik.[51] In the United Nations, the Soviet delegate offered the US representative aid "under the Soviet program of technical assistance to backwards nations."[50]
Intelligentia et magnanimitas vincvnt violentiam et desperationem.
The truth behind NASA's budget

*

Pezevenk

  • 15914
  • +50/-57
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: War
« Reply #168 on: February 16, 2022, 08:07:53 AM »
https://twitter.com/MuradGazdiev/status/1493862768818151425?s=20&t=rupbwfbEOXouymABLMl2qA
Quote
The Russian Foreign Ministry has called on Western media outlets to publish a full list of dates on which Russia will invade Ukraine for the year ahead, so Russian diplomats can schedule their vacations accordingly.

This is not satire. They did this

They are trolling.

I've gotta respect them.  Russia is a world class troll.

It reminds me of this incident in the space race.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Race

Quote
Eisenhower ordered project Vanguard to move up its timetable and launch its satellite much sooner than originally planned.[49] The December 6, 1957 Project Vanguard launch failure occurred at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in Florida. It was a monumental failure, exploding a few seconds after launch, and it became an international joke. The satellite appeared in newspapers under the names Flopnik, Stayputnik, Kaputnik,[50] and Dudnik.[51] In the United Nations, the Soviet delegate offered the US representative aid "under the Soviet program of technical assistance to backwards nations."[50]
Kaputnik is awesome.
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

?

Lorddave

  • 19811
  • +28/-60
Re: War
« Reply #169 on: February 16, 2022, 08:29:49 AM »
Well it could be trolling, but in a different way. Putin might enjoy freaking the world out now and then, or he could be joking around and then BAM the invasion happens.
Or he's seeing how the world reacts so he can plan accordingly next time.

Or he's just trolling because he enjoys it.
Gone.

*

Crouton

  • Flat Earth Inspector General of High Fashion Crimes and Misdemeanors
  • 17037
  • +5/-4
  • He who walks away from Omelas
Re: War
« Reply #170 on: February 16, 2022, 08:38:56 AM »



That's not exactly true, they basically replaced the void of government with USSR allied governments. Kind of similar to what happened in Japan. Of course many people in these countries now don't like that because they thought Russia was taking advantage of them.

There's more to it than that.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland  Russia was responsible to some degree or another for these power vacuums.

There was never such a threat. Greece was always afraid of Turkey in terms of external threats, never Russia. In fact Greece has certain cultural similarities with Russia and historical ties, so I'd say it's one of the countries that most people here don't look at as "enemies". We don't have bad relations with Russia either.

That's actually part of the reason they invaded Cyprus in the first place, the Turkish Cypriot minority... But obviously it wasn't Erdogan, he was a kid back then. Erdogan is disputing places that have no Turkish population now. Actually some of them have no population, period.

I was partly joking when I said that.  There's probably an answer for this but why hasn't Greece invoked article 5 over Turkey? 

But that's just not true...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudetenland#:~:text=Immediately%20after%20the%20Anschlu%C3%9F%20of,Konrad%20Henlein%2C%20agitated%20for%20autonomy.

Quote
Immediately after the Anschluß of Austria into the Third Reich in March 1938, Hitler made himself the advocate of ethnic Germans living in Czechoslovakia, triggering the "Sudeten Crisis". The following month, Sudeten Nazis, led by Konrad Henlein, agitated for autonomy.

The Sudetenland is an area that encircled Czechoslovakia.  It had many ethnic Germans in it.  Hitler, out of the kindness of his heart, decided that they must be protected at all costs.  Oh also all of the defensive structures for Czechoslovakia were located in The Sudetenland.  I'm sure that was a coincidence though. 

They though that by giving up the Sudentenland that Hitler would be appeased.  It did not because, like Putin, defending his displaced countrymen was never his goal.


When that happened both Turkey and Greece were in NATO, and yet they had a war. The reason was that the US puppet dictatorship of Greece was the worst possible actor to help Cyprus transition from British colony to either Greek territory or independent country (which would have been the best thing). They decided to just organize a coup in Cyprus and install their hyper nationalist buddies, at which point Turkey was like alright, Cyprus has a minority of Turkish Cypriots (about 18%), we're gonna invade to protect them. It's kind of similar to what happened in Ukraine, except in Cyprus the Turkish minority was not concentrated in a specific area where they were a majority, they were more spread out. But of course Turkey imported a bunch of Turks after the invasion. So all of this happened between two countries which are both in NATO (and a third one I guess but it wasn't a proper country yet), and NATO didn't really do that much. So this should make people consider why NATO cares so much suddenly about some place which isn't even in NATO. And again, this whole thing would have probably been avoided had shitty nationalists not been involved and if it was just left to be a sovereign independent country with balanced representation for all groups. The same kind of mistake led to increased
Russian separatism in Ukraine and the annexation of Crimea.

I don't know much Greek history post ww2.  I will say though that failed states are generally bad for business so that alone is reason enough to try to prevent wars.
Intelligentia et magnanimitas vincvnt violentiam et desperationem.
The truth behind NASA's budget

*

Crouton

  • Flat Earth Inspector General of High Fashion Crimes and Misdemeanors
  • 17037
  • +5/-4
  • He who walks away from Omelas
Re: War
« Reply #171 on: February 16, 2022, 08:41:12 AM »
Well it could be trolling, but in a different way. Putin might enjoy freaking the world out now and then, or he could be joking around and then BAM the invasion happens.
Or he's seeing how the world reacts so he can plan accordingly next time.

Or he's just trolling because he enjoys it.

It's worth noting that we haven't actually seen any signs of troop withdrawal yet.
Intelligentia et magnanimitas vincvnt violentiam et desperationem.
The truth behind NASA's budget

?

Themightykabool

  • 13095
  • +58/-79
Re: War
« Reply #172 on: February 16, 2022, 09:21:26 AM »
trump moved out of syria and tried to start a war with iran.
i wonder if that was because his master, putin, needed someone to buy russian weapons.
now that there's no iran war, putin has to make use of teh stock piles somehow to keep russia war machine moving.


*

Pezevenk

  • 15914
  • +50/-57
  • Militant aporfyrodrakonist
Re: War
« Reply #173 on: February 16, 2022, 10:59:53 AM »



That's not exactly true, they basically replaced the void of government with USSR allied governments. Kind of similar to what happened in Japan. Of course many people in these countries now don't like that because they thought Russia was taking advantage of them.

There's more to it than that.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland  Russia was responsible to some degree or another for these power vacuums.

I mean, Poland yes, but Poland was before they got involved in WWII, not after.

Quote
I was partly joking when I said that.  There's probably an answer for this but why hasn't Greece invoked article 5 over Turkey?

I don't know what was invoked and what wasn't back in 1974 when this happened but it was expected that NATO would do something, and it didn't. Some Cypriot nationalists were quite pissed and killed a US ambassador. Pretty messy times. People don't really trust that NATO will do very much if some Greek island is invaded.

Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudetenland#:~:text=Immediately%20after%20the%20Anschlu%C3%9F%20of,Konrad%20Henlein%2C%20agitated%20for%20autonomy.

Yes, that was about Sudetenland in particular. There wasn't any real significant German population anywhere else besides Austria that Hitler invaded. He kind of tried to invade everywhere.
 
Quote
They though that by giving up the Sudentenland that Hitler would be appeased.  It did not because, like Putin, defending his displaced countrymen was never his goal.

See, again the same Hitler comparisons when Russia has not given any signs of trying to do something similar whatsoever. Putin didn't just appear yesterday, he's been there for two decades, and Russia has followed pretty much the same foreign policy the whole time. We know how he operates.

Quote
I don't know much Greek history post ww2.  I will say though that failed states are generally bad for business so that alone is reason enough to try to prevent wars.
Russia is bad for US business. It's just a hegemonic superpower vs a minor superpower conflict. That's why they care. Otherwise you probably wouldn't even know anything is happening right now like you don't know about random ethnic wars in Africa, or why most people don't remember Cyprus.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2022, 11:02:25 AM by Pezevenk »
Member of the BOTD for Anti Fascism and Racism

It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
-Intikam

Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
-Intikam (again)

?

Lorddave

  • 19811
  • +28/-60
Re: War
« Reply #174 on: February 16, 2022, 12:17:32 PM »
Welp, Day's just about over and no invasion.  Looks like that date was wrong.
Gone.

*

JJA

  • 6873
  • +2/-6
  • Math is math!
Re: War
« Reply #175 on: February 16, 2022, 12:40:43 PM »
Welp, Day's just about over and no invasion.  Looks like that date was wrong.

Lets hope the west continues to be wrong.

*

Crouton

  • Flat Earth Inspector General of High Fashion Crimes and Misdemeanors
  • 17037
  • +5/-4
  • He who walks away from Omelas
Re: War
« Reply #176 on: February 16, 2022, 02:24:23 PM »



That's not exactly true, they basically replaced the void of government with USSR allied governments. Kind of similar to what happened in Japan. Of course many people in these countries now don't like that because they thought Russia was taking advantage of them.

There's more to it than that.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland  Russia was responsible to some degree or another for these power vacuums.

I mean, Poland yes, but Poland was before they got involved in WWII, not after.

Quote
I was partly joking when I said that.  There's probably an answer for this but why hasn't Greece invoked article 5 over Turkey?

I don't know what was invoked and what wasn't back in 1974 when this happened but it was expected that NATO would do something, and it didn't. Some Cypriot nationalists were quite pissed and killed a US ambassador. Pretty messy times. People don't really trust that NATO will do very much if some Greek island is invaded.

Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudetenland#:~:text=Immediately%20after%20the%20Anschlu%C3%9F%20of,Konrad%20Henlein%2C%20agitated%20for%20autonomy.

Yes, that was about Sudetenland in particular. There wasn't any real significant German population anywhere else besides Austria that Hitler invaded. He kind of tried to invade everywhere.
 
Quote
They though that by giving up the Sudentenland that Hitler would be appeased.  It did not because, like Putin, defending his displaced countrymen was never his goal.

See, again the same Hitler comparisons when Russia has not given any signs of trying to do something similar whatsoever. Putin didn't just appear yesterday, he's been there for two decades, and Russia has followed pretty much the same foreign policy the whole time. We know how he operates.


Looks like NATO wasn't doing its job in Greece's case then.  I'd have a grudge against NATO also.  But that's something I"ll need to read up on.

I don't mean to call Putin Hitler.  Hitler was completely delusion, Putin is not.  My point is that it's extremely naive to take Putin, or any other leader, at their word when it comes to invading other countries.  They're never going to declare that they're invading a country because they like running their country like they're playing Civilization 5.  If they say they're invading because they want to take their stuff then everyone is going to oppose that.  So they come up with the best excuse possible.  Hitler's best excuse for the Sudentenland was protecting Germans.  There were not a lot of Germans in Poland so his best excuse there was to manufacture a false flag attack.  It doesn't matter that this was ridiculous.  A non zero percentage of the people in foreign countries believed it which blunted their opposition to it.

Maybe I'm overreacting a little though.  Looking into it more other than the times Russia has invaded Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Afghanistan, Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine they've been pretty quiet.

Russia is bad for US business. It's just a hegemonic superpower vs a minor superpower conflict. That's why they care. Otherwise you probably wouldn't even know anything is happening right now like you don't know about random ethnic wars in Africa, or why most people don't remember Cyprus.

Probably true but that doesn't make me wrong.
Intelligentia et magnanimitas vincvnt violentiam et desperationem.
The truth behind NASA's budget

*

Space Cowgirl

  • MOM
  • Planar Moderator
  • 52320
  • +97/-65
  • Official FE Recruiter
Re: War
« Reply #177 on: February 16, 2022, 03:56:25 PM »
https://www.politico.com/newsletters/national-security-daily/2022/02/16/feb-16-was-always-a-distraction-00009532

Quote
The prospect of a Russian invasion of Ukraine on Feb. 16 was always overhyped. The time frame to really keep an eye on is what happens shortly after Feb. 20.

The Feb. 16 focus was understandable: Media reports, including here in NatSec Daily, noted how President JOE BIDEN told Western leaders about intelligence assessing that Russia might launch its invasion then. Importantly, though, top Biden aides never said publicly that Feb. 16 was the certain invasion day — only that Russian President VLADIMIR PUTIN’s troop buildup meant an attack could come “at any time” and possibly before the Olympics wrap up.

It was really Feb 20th! lol
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

*

Crouton

  • Flat Earth Inspector General of High Fashion Crimes and Misdemeanors
  • 17037
  • +5/-4
  • He who walks away from Omelas
Re: War
« Reply #178 on: February 16, 2022, 04:25:01 PM »
I've read somewhere that an invasion would have to occur before the end of winter since the ground would thaw and they can't move their heavy equipment.  I don't know if that's true or not.
Intelligentia et magnanimitas vincvnt violentiam et desperationem.
The truth behind NASA's budget

*

Crouton

  • Flat Earth Inspector General of High Fashion Crimes and Misdemeanors
  • 17037
  • +5/-4
  • He who walks away from Omelas
Re: War
« Reply #179 on: February 16, 2022, 04:37:49 PM »
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-pullout-meets-uk-scepticism-ukraine-defence-website-still-hacked-2022-02-16/

So they're now at 170,000 troops and they're advanced towards the Ukrainian border.

Maybe they know a shortcut to get home that goes through Ukraine.
Intelligentia et magnanimitas vincvnt violentiam et desperationem.
The truth behind NASA's budget