Curvature

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Curvature
« on: November 10, 2021, 07:10:17 AM »
If boats or any object go over the curvature of earth how comes we can't see this curvature they are going over or hidden behind?Go to this website with earths curve calculator https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/earth-curvature scroll down and find the diagram with the curvature and an object hidden from curvature,  where is the big hump of curvature hiding the bottom of objects? Or whole objects? I know you are going to say earth is too big to see the curvature but then objects ain't going over the curvature you can't have it both ways.

If someone can show me on a small scale an object going over a curvature without seeing the tilt or the curvature then that would disprove my point.

Re: Curvature
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2021, 10:58:21 AM »
If boats or any object go over the curvature of earth how comes we can't see this curvature they are going over or hidden behind?Go to this website with earths curve calculator https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/earth-curvature scroll down and find the diagram with the curvature and an object hidden from curvature,  where is the big hump of curvature hiding the bottom of objects? Or whole objects?
The water that's obscuring the the bottoms of those objects is the "hump". What do you think "the hump" should look like? Why?
Quote
I know you are going to say earth is too big to see the curvature but then objects ain't going over the curvature you can't have it both ways.
There's no "both ways" about it. Perhaps "earth is too big to see the curvature" (if anyone actually said that) is better stated as "earth is so big that the curvature isn't immediately obvious". As you note with boats and other objects partially obscured by the horizon, you can see it if you do more than casually glance, and think about it for a few moments.
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If someone can show me on a small scale an object going over a curvature without seeing the tilt or the curvature then that would disprove my point.
As already noted, because the earth is almost 14,000 km in diameter, curvature is less obvious from at the surface (even flying in an airliner is almost the same since you're only about 0.2% further away from its center) than looking at a volleyball you're holding in your hands - which would be about the same as looking at earth from about 20,000 km or so above the surface.

Moving on to tilt, how much tilt would you suppose there "should" be, and what would it look like to you? The "how much" is easy... at the surface of the earth plumb lines are tilted by one minute of arc with respect to each other for each one nautical mile they are apart. So two vertical structures would tilt with respect to each other by 1/2 degree if they are 30 nm apart. Do you think you could detect 1/2 degree of tilt in something, by eye, that is more than 50 km away ? Also, the tilt is directly away from you, making such detection even more difficult.

« Last Edit: November 10, 2021, 11:00:28 AM by Alpha2Omega »
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JackBlack

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Re: Curvature
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2021, 12:52:01 PM »
If boats or any object go over the curvature of earth how comes we can't see this curvature they are going over or hidden behind?
Just what do you expect to see? A giant mountain with a sharp peak?
The ground rising up well above you?

The curvature you will see is distant objects having their bottom obscured, or being entirely obscured.

Go to this website with earths curve calculator https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/earth-curvature scroll down and find the diagram with the curvature and an object hidden from curvature
They have that diagram just for simplicity in the presentation.
The first thing to note is which way is down.
On Earth, down points ~towards the centre of Earth.
A better diagram for that would be this:

The important point here is that Earth curves "down" away from you.
So there wont be a big hump rising up. It will all be below you.
This is actually a difference between a FE and a RE. A FE should have the "horizon" "rise to eye level" unless you can see the edge of this FE.
But for a RE, it will be below you, with the amount below depending on your altitude.
But even at a height of 100 m, it is still quite a small angle of dip, only 0.3 degrees.

The other big issue is scale.
Because of just how small the curvature is, it is quite difficult to show on diagrams. Because of this they will normally use diagrams which show objects that are massive or a tiny Earth.
For example, using your link, the red object on the Earth, if that was too scale, would be ~1200 km high. That is well into space.

I know you are going to say earth is too big to see the curvature but then objects ain't going over the curvature you can't have it both ways.
No, I would say Earth is massive and you are tiny.
For a person viewing an object from 2 m above the surface, you need thousands of m before the object even starts being hidden. Then as it moves on to a few more thousand, you end up with a few m being hidden.
Notice the massive difference in scale?
Thousands of m of distance, to hide a few m.

If you want to see Earth as a small ball you need to be 10s of thousands of km away.

Here is a to scale diagram of the curve of Earth over those 10 km:

The change in y position of Earth across the image is less than a pixel. That is because each pixel corresponds to 10 m.
You can't see the observer, because they are less than a pixel.
You can see the 20 m tall boat, but it looks like a dot because it is so small.

If someone can show me on a small scale an object going over a curvature without seeing the tilt or the curvature then that would disprove my point.
The problem is that on a small scale, the tilt would be quite significant and the curvature is readily apparent.

The circumference of Earth is ~ 40 000 km. That means that if you want 1 degree of tilt, the object needs to be ~111 km away.
And this tilt is in the direction that is hardest to see.

This 1 degree tilt would be like looking at a building that is 100 m away, but instead of looking level, you are looking at a point ~ 1.7 m above your eye line.

If you wanted to simulate it on a small scale, if you had a ball with a radius of 6.4 m, the 2 m high observation point would correspond to roughly 2 um above the surface of the ball. Try finding a camera small enough to put there.
A 20 m tall boat, would correspond to ~20 um.
And the 5 km distance needed for the bottom to start being obscured would be ~5 mm.

One big problem is finding a ball smooth enough.

So your best option is to use simulation software you can trust.

Re: Curvature
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2021, 01:13:30 PM »
If boats or any object go over the curvature of earth how comes we can't see this curvature they are going over or hidden behind?Go to this website with earths curve calculator https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/earth-curvature scroll down and find the diagram with the curvature and an object hidden from curvature,  where is the big hump of curvature hiding the bottom of objects? Or whole objects?
The water that's obscuring the the bottoms of those objects is the "hump". What do you think "the hump" should look like? Why?
Quote
I know you are going to say earth is too big to see the curvature but then objects ain't going over the curvature you can't have it both ways.
There's no "both ways" about it. Perhaps "earth is too big to see the curvature" (if anyone actually said that) is better stated as "earth is so big that the curvature isn't immediately obvious". As you note with boats and other objects partially obscured by the horizon, you can see it if you do more than casually glance, and think about it for a few moments.
Quote
If someone can show me on a small scale an object going over a curvature without seeing the tilt or the curvature then that would disprove my point.
As already noted, because the earth is almost 14,000 km in diameter, curvature is less obvious from at the surface (even flying in an airliner is almost the same since you're only about 0.2% further away from its center) than looking at a volleyball you're holding in your hands - which would be about the same as looking at earth from about 20,000 km or so above the surface.

Moving on to tilt, how much tilt would you suppose there "should" be, and what would it look like to you? The "how much" is easy... at the surface of the earth plumb lines are tilted by one minute of arc with respect to each other for each one nautical mile they are apart. So two vertical structures would tilt with respect to each other by 1/2 degree if they are 30 nm apart. Do you think you could detect 1/2 degree of tilt in something, by eye, that is more than 50 km away ? Also, the tilt is directly away from you, making such detection even more difficult.
but we see flat water but an object has apparently gone over the curvature,  for it to have gone over a curvature then this curvature would be obvious to see . Can you repeat what we see on a small scale? Can you make an object go over a curvature without seeing this curvature?

BTW how do I quote separate parts of your post like you did with mine? I'm new to this website and it's seems quite confusing ?

Re: Curvature
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2021, 01:15:34 PM »
If boats or any object go over the curvature of earth how comes we can't see this curvature they are going over or hidden behind?
Just what do you expect to see? A giant mountain with a sharp peak?
The ground rising up well above you?

The curvature you will see is distant objects having their bottom obscured, or being entirely obscured.

Go to this website with earths curve calculator https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/earth-curvature scroll down and find the diagram with the curvature and an object hidden from curvature
They have that diagram just for simplicity in the presentation.
The first thing to note is which way is down.
On Earth, down points ~towards the centre of Earth.
A better diagram for that would be this:

The important point here is that Earth curves "down" away from you.
So there wont be a big hump rising up. It will all be below you.
This is actually a difference between a FE and a RE. A FE should have the "horizon" "rise to eye level" unless you can see the edge of this FE.
But for a RE, it will be below you, with the amount below depending on your altitude.
But even at a height of 100 m, it is still quite a small angle of dip, only 0.3 degrees.

The other big issue is scale.
Because of just how small the curvature is, it is quite difficult to show on diagrams. Because of this they will normally use diagrams which show objects that are massive or a tiny Earth.
For example, using your link, the red object on the Earth, if that was too scale, would be ~1200 km high. That is well into space.

I know you are going to say earth is too big to see the curvature but then objects ain't going over the curvature you can't have it both ways.
No, I would say Earth is massive and you are tiny.
For a person viewing an object from 2 m above the surface, you need thousands of m before the object even starts being hidden. Then as it moves on to a few more thousand, you end up with a few m being hidden.
Notice the massive difference in scale?
Thousands of m of distance, to hide a few m.

If you want to see Earth as a small ball you need to be 10s of thousands of km away.

Here is a to scale diagram of the curve of Earth over those 10 km:

The change in y position of Earth across the image is less than a pixel. That is because each pixel corresponds to 10 m.
You can't see the observer, because they are less than a pixel.
You can see the 20 m tall boat, but it looks like a dot because it is so small.

If someone can show me on a small scale an object going over a curvature without seeing the tilt or the curvature then that would disprove my point.
The problem is that on a small scale, the tilt would be quite significant and the curvature is readily apparent.

The circumference of Earth is ~ 40 000 km. That means that if you want 1 degree of tilt, the object needs to be ~111 km away.
And this tilt is in the direction that is hardest to see.

This 1 degree tilt would be like looking at a building that is 100 m away, but instead of looking level, you are looking at a point ~ 1.7 m above your eye line.

If you wanted to simulate it on a small scale, if you had a ball with a radius of 6.4 m, the 2 m high observation point would correspond to roughly 2 um above the surface of the ball. Try finding a camera small enough to put there.
A 20 m tall boat, would correspond to ~20 um.
And the 5 km distance needed for the bottom to start being obscured would be ~5 mm.

One big problem is finding a ball smooth enough.

So your best option is to use simulation software you can trust.
so how comes we never see what is in that diagram you just posted? Because that's what it has to look like if an object is going down a curvature . And why would Earth always be going down? What if you was standing where that black stick is on your diagram? Look one way Earth would be going up look the other it would be going down.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2021, 01:17:15 PM by Notasphere »

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JackBlack

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Re: Curvature
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2021, 01:52:53 PM »
but we see flat water
What makes you say that?
How do you know the water is flat rather than curved?
Take a look at the to scale diagram I provided. Can you easily tell that is curved?

for it to have gone over a curvature then this curvature would be obvious to see
No, it wouldn't.
Because it needs to travels thousands of m to hide a few m, the curvature is not obvious.

For the curvature to be obvious you would new a few m hidden after it has travelled a few m.

BTW how do I quote separate parts of your post like you did with mine? I'm new to this website and it's seems quite confusing ?
There are 2 ways.

One is to just copy the section of text you are quoting and click the quote button so it is wrapped in quote tags.
The other is to copy the line at the top of the post when you are quoting.
e.g. this part:
Code: [Select]
[quote author=Notasphere link=topic=89236.msg2337439#msg2337439 date=1636578810]
And also copy the closing quote tag:
Code: [Select]
[/quote]
so how comes we never see what is in that diagram you just posted?
Which diagram?
The not-to-scale one which would require an observer hundreds to thousands of km above Earth?
Because we are only a few m above.

The to-scale diagram? If so, what part isn't seen?

And why would Earth always be going down? What if you was standing where that black stick is on your diagram? Look one way Earth would be going up look the other it would be going down.
Down is relative. If you pick 2 different locations on Earth, down is not the same direction.
A simple example is that 2 points opposite each other on Earth have the direction of down 180 degrees apart. Both are pointing in to the centre of Earth.
I oriented the diagram to match the direction of down for the red line.
The orientation of down for the black line is towards the centre of Earth, not down on the page.
To see what it would look like for them, turn your head roughly 25 degrees. (Also note that the diagram isn't perfect and the black line is actually leaning back, not going straight up for them)
So for them, it is still going down.

It doesn't matter where you are on Earth. If it is level, in every direction you look, Earth is curving down.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2021, 01:55:53 PM by JackBlack »

Re: Curvature
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2021, 02:07:11 PM »
but we see flat water
What makes you say that?
How do you know the water is flat rather than curved?
Take a look at the to scale diagram I provided. Can you easily tell that is curved?

for it to have gone over a curvature then this curvature would be obvious to see
No, it wouldn't.
Because it needs to travels thousands of m to hide a few m, the curvature is not obvious.

For the curvature to be obvious you would new a few m hidden after it has travelled a few m.

BTW how do I quote separate parts of your post like you did with mine? I'm new to this website and it's seems quite confusing ?
There are 2 ways.

One is to just copy the section of text you are quoting and click the quote button so it is wrapped in quote tags.
The other is to copy the line at the top of the post when you are quoting.
e.g. this part:
Code: [Select]
[quote author=Notasphere link=topic=89236.msg2337439#msg2337439 date=1636578810]
And also copy the closing quote tag:
Code: [Select]
[/quote]
so how comes we never see what is in that diagram you just posted?
Which diagram?
The not-to-scale one which would require an observer hundreds to thousands of km above Earth?
Because we are only a few m above.

The to-scale diagram? If so, what part isn't seen?

And why would Earth always be going down? What if you was standing where that black stick is on your diagram? Look one way Earth would be going up look the other it would be going down.
Down is relative. If you pick 2 different locations on Earth, down is not the same direction.
A simple example is that 2 points opposite each other on Earth have the direction of down 180 degrees apart. Both are pointing in to the centre of Earth.
I oriented the diagram to match the direction of down for the red line.
The orientation of down for the black line is towards the centre of Earth, not down on the page.
To see what it would look like for them, turn your head roughly 25 degrees. (Also note that the diagram isn't perfect and the black line is actually leaning back, not going straight up for them)
So for them, it is still going down.

It doesn't matter where you are on Earth. If it is level, in every direction you look, Earth is curving down.
Well I guess how big of a distance we are looking it's hard to tell its flat but it's pretty flat regardless there definitely isn't a curvature when I look out to the horizon or look from a plane, in your diagram it is easy to make out a curvature, I'm not sure you understand what I'm getting at , an object cannot be fully hidden by curvature but this curvature not be seen at the same time I literally cannot understand this one bit to me this is the same thing as hiding something behind a wall and acting like you shouldn't be able to see the wall. Can you show me on a small scale an object over a curvature without seeing this curvature?

This doesn't make sense what you are saying , from your diagram if person a was the red stick and person b was the black stick and they both turned to look at each other they both can't be looking down at each other one of them has to be looking up towards the other how is it possible for them to both be looking down at eachother?

I can't seem to quote individual parts might be because I'm on a phone it just quotes everything also how do I post pictures thanks.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2021, 02:09:03 PM by Notasphere »

Re: Curvature
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2021, 02:18:42 PM »
If boats or any object go over the curvature of earth how comes we can't see this curvature they are going over or hidden behind?Go to this website with earths curve calculator https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/earth-curvature scroll down and find the diagram with the curvature and an object hidden from curvature,  where is the big hump of curvature hiding the bottom of objects? Or whole objects? I know you are going to say earth is too big to see the curvature but then objects ain't going over the curvature you can't have it both ways.

The curvature is along an observer's line of sight and over water is the same in all directions. Hence the horizon is the top of the 'hump' from an observer's point of view. The horizon itself is flat as in all directions it is the same distance away and so appears at the same height.

Re: Curvature
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2021, 02:34:33 PM »
If boats or any object go over the curvature of earth how comes we can't see this curvature they are going over or hidden behind?Go to this website with earths curve calculator https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/earth-curvature scroll down and find the diagram with the curvature and an object hidden from curvature,  where is the big hump of curvature hiding the bottom of objects? Or whole objects? I know you are going to say earth is too big to see the curvature but then objects ain't going over the curvature you can't have it both ways.

The curvature is along an observer's line of sight and over water is the same in all directions. Hence the horizon is the top of the 'hump' from an observer's point of view. The horizon itself is flat as in all directions it is the same distance away and so appears at the same height.
Ok cool, so when we are at the beach and we see a ship fully disappear over the curvature so now it's fully gone can't be seen anymore your saying we can't see this curvature it's hidden behind right? If so can you please show me how this works on a small scale?

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Re: Curvature
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2021, 02:49:26 PM »
Ok cool, so when we are at the beach and we see a ship fully disappear over the curvature so now it's fully gone can't be seen anymore your saying we can't see this curvature it's hidden behind right? If so can you please show me how this works on a small scale?






Re: Curvature
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2021, 02:54:02 PM »
Ok cool, so when we are at the beach and we see a ship fully disappear over the curvature so now it's fully gone can't be seen anymore your saying we can't see this curvature it's hidden behind right? If so can you please show me how this works on a small scale?






If it's such a tiny curve then how can it hide objects fully? I'll ask you aswell can you show me on a small scale how this works?

Re: Curvature
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2021, 02:57:45 PM »
If boats or any object go over the curvature of earth how comes we can't see this curvature they are going over or hidden behind?Go to this website with earths curve calculator https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/earth-curvature scroll down and find the diagram with the curvature and an object hidden from curvature,  where is the big hump of curvature hiding the bottom of objects? Or whole objects? I know you are going to say earth is too big to see the curvature but then objects ain't going over the curvature you can't have it both ways.

The curvature is along an observer's line of sight and over water is the same in all directions. Hence the horizon is the top of the 'hump' from an observer's point of view. The horizon itself is flat as in all directions it is the same distance away and so appears at the same height.
Ok cool, so when we are at the beach and we see a ship fully disappear over the curvature so now it's fully gone can't be seen anymore your saying we can't see this curvature it's hidden behind right? If so can you please show me how this works on a small scale?
The curvature is along your line of sight. The top of the 'hump' is the horizon. The ship is behind the hump.

Re: Curvature
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2021, 02:59:00 PM »
If boats or any object go over the curvature of earth how comes we can't see this curvature they are going over or hidden behind?Go to this website with earths curve calculator https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/earth-curvature scroll down and find the diagram with the curvature and an object hidden from curvature,  where is the big hump of curvature hiding the bottom of objects? Or whole objects? I know you are going to say earth is too big to see the curvature but then objects ain't going over the curvature you can't have it both ways.

The curvature is along an observer's line of sight and over water is the same in all directions. Hence the horizon is the top of the 'hump' from an observer's point of view. The horizon itself is flat as in all directions it is the same distance away and so appears at the same height.
Ok cool, so when we are at the beach and we see a ship fully disappear over the curvature so now it's fully gone can't be seen anymore your saying we can't see this curvature it's hidden behind right? If so can you please show me how this works on a small scale?
The curvature is along your line of sight. The top of the 'hump' is the horizon. The ship is behind the hump.
So where is this hump? Why can't you raise altitude and see this hump?

Re: Curvature
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2021, 03:08:07 PM »
If boats or any object go over the curvature of earth how comes we can't see this curvature they are going over or hidden behind?Go to this website with earths curve calculator https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/earth-curvature scroll down and find the diagram with the curvature and an object hidden from curvature,  where is the big hump of curvature hiding the bottom of objects? Or whole objects? I know you are going to say earth is too big to see the curvature but then objects ain't going over the curvature you can't have it both ways.

The curvature is along an observer's line of sight and over water is the same in all directions. Hence the horizon is the top of the 'hump' from an observer's point of view. The horizon itself is flat as in all directions it is the same distance away and so appears at the same height.
Ok cool, so when we are at the beach and we see a ship fully disappear over the curvature so now it's fully gone can't be seen anymore your saying we can't see this curvature it's hidden behind right? If so can you please show me how this works on a small scale?
The curvature is along your line of sight. The top of the 'hump' is the horizon. The ship is behind the hump.
So where is this hump? Why can't you raise altitude and see this hump?

The 'hump' is perfectly visible, directly in front of you, whichever way you look. What makes you think you can't see it?

Re: Curvature
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2021, 03:17:06 PM »
If boats or any object go over the curvature of earth how comes we can't see this curvature they are going over or hidden behind?Go to this website with earths curve calculator https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/earth-curvature scroll down and find the diagram with the curvature and an object hidden from curvature,  where is the big hump of curvature hiding the bottom of objects? Or whole objects? I know you are going to say earth is too big to see the curvature but then objects ain't going over the curvature you can't have it both ways.

The curvature is along an observer's line of sight and over water is the same in all directions. Hence the horizon is the top of the 'hump' from an observer's point of view. The horizon itself is flat as in all directions it is the same distance away and so appears at the same height.
Ok cool, so when we are at the beach and we see a ship fully disappear over the curvature so now it's fully gone can't be seen anymore your saying we can't see this curvature it's hidden behind right? If so can you please show me how this works on a small scale?
The curvature is along your line of sight. The top of the 'hump' is the horizon. The ship is behind the hump.
So where is this hump? Why can't you raise altitude and see this hump?

The 'hump' is perfectly visible, directly in front of you, whichever way you look. What makes you think you can't see it?
Because there isn't a hump ? Show me the hump.

Re: Curvature
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2021, 03:30:00 PM »
If boats or any object go over the curvature of earth how comes we can't see this curvature they are going over or hidden behind?Go to this website with earths curve calculator https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/earth-curvature scroll down and find the diagram with the curvature and an object hidden from curvature,  where is the big hump of curvature hiding the bottom of objects? Or whole objects? I know you are going to say earth is too big to see the curvature but then objects ain't going over the curvature you can't have it both ways.

The curvature is along an observer's line of sight and over water is the same in all directions. Hence the horizon is the top of the 'hump' from an observer's point of view. The horizon itself is flat as in all directions it is the same distance away and so appears at the same height.
Ok cool, so when we are at the beach and we see a ship fully disappear over the curvature so now it's fully gone can't be seen anymore your saying we can't see this curvature it's hidden behind right? If so can you please show me how this works on a small scale?
The curvature is along your line of sight. The top of the 'hump' is the horizon. The ship is behind the hump.
So where is this hump? Why can't you raise altitude and see this hump?

The 'hump' is perfectly visible, directly in front of you, whichever way you look. What makes you think you can't see it?
Because there isn't a hump ? Show me the hump.

As explained, the 'hump' is in front of you and all around. The top of the hump is the horizon. Stuff far behind the hump (e.g. ships) can't be seen.

Your lack of engagement with what I've written suggests you're trolling. Good luck.

Re: Curvature
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2021, 03:34:45 PM »
If boats or any object go over the curvature of earth how comes we can't see this curvature they are going over or hidden behind?Go to this website with earths curve calculator https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/earth-curvature scroll down and find the diagram with the curvature and an object hidden from curvature,  where is the big hump of curvature hiding the bottom of objects? Or whole objects? I know you are going to say earth is too big to see the curvature but then objects ain't going over the curvature you can't have it both ways.

The curvature is along an observer's line of sight and over water is the same in all directions. Hence the horizon is the top of the 'hump' from an observer's point of view. The horizon itself is flat as in all directions it is the same distance away and so appears at the same height.
Ok cool, so when we are at the beach and we see a ship fully disappear over the curvature so now it's fully gone can't be seen anymore your saying we can't see this curvature it's hidden behind right? If so can you please show me how this works on a small scale?
The curvature is along your line of sight. The top of the 'hump' is the horizon. The ship is behind the hump.
So where is this hump? Why can't you raise altitude and see this hump?

The 'hump' is perfectly visible, directly in front of you, whichever way you look. What makes you think you can't see it?
Because there isn't a hump ? Show me the hump.

As explained, the 'hump' is in front of you and all around. The top of the hump is the horizon. Stuff far behind the hump (e.g. ships) can't be seen.

Your lack of engagement with what I've written suggests you're trolling. Good luck.
So why is the horizon pretty much horizontal? I can't see any hump looking to the horizon at all .

Re: Curvature
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2021, 03:42:56 PM »
If boats or any object go over the curvature of earth how comes we can't see this curvature they are going over or hidden behind?Go to this website with earths curve calculator https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/earth-curvature scroll down and find the diagram with the curvature and an object hidden from curvature,  where is the big hump of curvature hiding the bottom of objects? Or whole objects? I know you are going to say earth is too big to see the curvature but then objects ain't going over the curvature you can't have it both ways.

The curvature is along an observer's line of sight and over water is the same in all directions. Hence the horizon is the top of the 'hump' from an observer's point of view. The horizon itself is flat as in all directions it is the same distance away and so appears at the same height.
Ok cool, so when we are at the beach and we see a ship fully disappear over the curvature so now it's fully gone can't be seen anymore your saying we can't see this curvature it's hidden behind right? If so can you please show me how this works on a small scale?
The curvature is along your line of sight. The top of the 'hump' is the horizon. The ship is behind the hump.
So where is this hump? Why can't you raise altitude and see this hump?

The 'hump' is perfectly visible, directly in front of you, whichever way you look. What makes you think you can't see it?
Because there isn't a hump ? Show me the hump.

As explained, the 'hump' is in front of you and all around. The top of the hump is the horizon. Stuff far behind the hump (e.g. ships) can't be seen.

Your lack of engagement with what I've written suggests you're trolling. Good luck.
So why is the horizon pretty much horizontal? I can't see any hump looking to the horizon at all .

Over water, the horizon is the same distance away in all directions. It is therefore the same height in all directions. Hence it is horizontal. This is exactly what would be expected on a round earth.

Re: Curvature
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2021, 03:44:41 PM »
If boats or any object go over the curvature of earth how comes we can't see this curvature they are going over or hidden behind?Go to this website with earths curve calculator https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/earth-curvature scroll down and find the diagram with the curvature and an object hidden from curvature,  where is the big hump of curvature hiding the bottom of objects? Or whole objects? I know you are going to say earth is too big to see the curvature but then objects ain't going over the curvature you can't have it both ways.

The curvature is along an observer's line of sight and over water is the same in all directions. Hence the horizon is the top of the 'hump' from an observer's point of view. The horizon itself is flat as in all directions it is the same distance away and so appears at the same height.
Ok cool, so when we are at the beach and we see a ship fully disappear over the curvature so now it's fully gone can't be seen anymore your saying we can't see this curvature it's hidden behind right? If so can you please show me how this works on a small scale?
The curvature is along your line of sight. The top of the 'hump' is the horizon. The ship is behind the hump.
So where is this hump? Why can't you raise altitude and see this hump?

The 'hump' is perfectly visible, directly in front of you, whichever way you look. What makes you think you can't see it?
Because there isn't a hump ? Show me the hump.

As explained, the 'hump' is in front of you and all around. The top of the hump is the horizon. Stuff far behind the hump (e.g. ships) can't be seen.

Your lack of engagement with what I've written suggests you're trolling. Good luck.
So why is the horizon pretty much horizontal? I can't see any hump looking to the horizon at all .

Over water, the horizon is the same distance away in all directions. It is therefore the same height in all directions. Hence it is horizontal. This is exactly what would be expected on a round earth.
You have contradicted yourself,  how can the horizon be horizontal if there is a hump?

Re: Curvature
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2021, 03:55:08 PM »
If boats or any object go over the curvature of earth how comes we can't see this curvature they are going over or hidden behind?Go to this website with earths curve calculator https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/earth-curvature scroll down and find the diagram with the curvature and an object hidden from curvature,  where is the big hump of curvature hiding the bottom of objects? Or whole objects? I know you are going to say earth is too big to see the curvature but then objects ain't going over the curvature you can't have it both ways.

The curvature is along an observer's line of sight and over water is the same in all directions. Hence the horizon is the top of the 'hump' from an observer's point of view. The horizon itself is flat as in all directions it is the same distance away and so appears at the same height.
Ok cool, so when we are at the beach and we see a ship fully disappear over the curvature so now it's fully gone can't be seen anymore your saying we can't see this curvature it's hidden behind right? If so can you please show me how this works on a small scale?
The curvature is along your line of sight. The top of the 'hump' is the horizon. The ship is behind the hump.
So where is this hump? Why can't you raise altitude and see this hump?

The 'hump' is perfectly visible, directly in front of you, whichever way you look. What makes you think you can't see it?
Because there isn't a hump ? Show me the hump.

As explained, the 'hump' is in front of you and all around. The top of the hump is the horizon. Stuff far behind the hump (e.g. ships) can't be seen.

Your lack of engagement with what I've written suggests you're trolling. Good luck.
So why is the horizon pretty much horizontal? I can't see any hump looking to the horizon at all .

Over water, the horizon is the same distance away in all directions. It is therefore the same height in all directions. Hence it is horizontal. This is exactly what would be expected on a round earth.
You have contradicted yourself,  how can the horizon be horizontal if there is a hump?

I've never said there was a hump in the horizon. I've been very consistent in saying that the curvature is along the line of sight, not along the horizon.

Fairly sure you're trolling here. That's a shame, but I won't be replying further.

Re: Curvature
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2021, 03:58:42 PM »
If boats or any object go over the curvature of earth how comes we can't see this curvature they are going over or hidden behind?Go to this website with earths curve calculator https://www.omnicalculator.com/physics/earth-curvature scroll down and find the diagram with the curvature and an object hidden from curvature,  where is the big hump of curvature hiding the bottom of objects? Or whole objects? I know you are going to say earth is too big to see the curvature but then objects ain't going over the curvature you can't have it both ways.

The curvature is along an observer's line of sight and over water is the same in all directions. Hence the horizon is the top of the 'hump' from an observer's point of view. The horizon itself is flat as in all directions it is the same distance away and so appears at the same height.
Ok cool, so when we are at the beach and we see a ship fully disappear over the curvature so now it's fully gone can't be seen anymore your saying we can't see this curvature it's hidden behind right? If so can you please show me how this works on a small scale?
The curvature is along your line of sight. The top of the 'hump' is the horizon. The ship is behind the hump.
So where is this hump? Why can't you raise altitude and see this hump?

The 'hump' is perfectly visible, directly in front of you, whichever way you look. What makes you think you can't see it?
Because there isn't a hump ? Show me the hump.

As explained, the 'hump' is in front of you and all around. The top of the hump is the horizon. Stuff far behind the hump (e.g. ships) can't be seen.

Your lack of engagement with what I've written suggests you're trolling. Good luck.
So why is the horizon pretty much horizontal? I can't see any hump looking to the horizon at all .

Over water, the horizon is the same distance away in all directions. It is therefore the same height in all directions. Hence it is horizontal. This is exactly what would be expected on a round earth.
You have contradicted yourself,  how can the horizon be horizontal if there is a hump?

I've never said there was a hump in the horizon. I've been very consistent in saying that the curvature is along the line of sight, not along the horizon.

Fairly sure you're trolling here. That's a shame, but I won't be replying further.
You literally said the top of the hump is the horizon go back and read what you wrote ... you saying I'm trolling because you are losing lol

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Re: Curvature
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2021, 03:59:02 PM »
You're somehow missing the point and hung up on this "hump" business.

Imagine you are the size of an ant and are standing on a basketball. In all horizontal directions the ball is curving downward and away from you. Here's you standing on the basketball:


Re: Curvature
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2021, 04:04:43 PM »
You're somehow missing the point and hung up on this "hump" business.

Imagine you are the size of an ant and are standing on a basketball. In all horizontal directions the ball is curving downward and away from you. Here's you standing on the basketball:


Put an object behind that curve on the ball.... then raise the camera just a tiny bit let's see if it matches reality... poor example here I said show me an object over a curvature without seeing the curvature.

This is poor lol we ain't glued to the ground we are above the ground our eyes ain't touching the floor like this camera is on the basketball.

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Re: Curvature
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2021, 04:08:15 PM »
You're somehow missing the point and hung up on this "hump" business.

Imagine you are the size of an ant and are standing on a basketball. In all horizontal directions the ball is curving downward and away from you. Here's you standing on the basketball:


Put an object behind that curve on the ball.... then raise the camera just a tiny bit let's see if it matches reality... poor example here I said show me an object over a curvature without seeing the curvature.

This is poor lol we ain't glued to the ground we are above the ground our eyes ain't touching the floor like this camera is on the basketball.


Re: Curvature
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2021, 04:10:35 PM »
You're somehow missing the point and hung up on this "hump" business.

Imagine you are the size of an ant and are standing on a basketball. In all horizontal directions the ball is curving downward and away from you. Here's you standing on the basketball:


Put an object behind that curve on the ball.... then raise the camera just a tiny bit let's see if it matches reality... poor example here I said show me an object over a curvature without seeing the curvature.

This is poor lol we ain't glued to the ground we are above the ground our eyes ain't touching the floor like this camera is on the basketball.


So if you believe they are over the curvature then where is this curvature? Its impossible to have an object hidden behind curvature without being able to see curvature that's why it's impossible for you to replicate what we see in that picture on a small curved surface...

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Re: Curvature
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2021, 04:18:13 PM »
You're somehow missing the point and hung up on this "hump" business.

Imagine you are the size of an ant and are standing on a basketball. In all horizontal directions the ball is curving downward and away from you. Here's you standing on the basketball:


Put an object behind that curve on the ball.... then raise the camera just a tiny bit let's see if it matches reality... poor example here I said show me an object over a curvature without seeing the curvature.

This is poor lol we ain't glued to the ground we are above the ground our eyes ain't touching the floor like this camera is on the basketball.


So if you believe they are over the curvature then where is this curvature? Its impossible to have an object hidden behind curvature without being able to see curvature that's why it's impossible for you to replicate what we see in that picture on a small curved surface...

You're not making any sense. Why are the blades of the turbines slashing into the water?

Re: Curvature
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2021, 04:29:34 PM »
You're somehow missing the point and hung up on this "hump" business.

Imagine you are the size of an ant and are standing on a basketball. In all horizontal directions the ball is curving downward and away from you. Here's you standing on the basketball:


Put an object behind that curve on the ball.... then raise the camera just a tiny bit let's see if it matches reality... poor example here I said show me an object over a curvature without seeing the curvature.

This is poor lol we ain't glued to the ground we are above the ground our eyes ain't touching the floor like this camera is on the basketball.


So if you believe they are over the curvature then where is this curvature? Its impossible to have an object hidden behind curvature without being able to see curvature that's why it's impossible for you to replicate what we see in that picture on a small curved surface...

You're not making any sense. Why are the blades of the turbines slashing into the water?
They are not slashing into the water it's just an illusion.
watch this quick video it's very simple to understand, can you not see how if you have a very long distance that objects will appear to disappear bottom up? As you can see the bottles on this short distance seem to go down from the cameras perspective give a long enough distance and the bottles will end up merging with the ground which will give the illusion of the bottles sinking and they will disappear bottom up.

You are saying its curvature so there should be curvature to be seen like I have said so many times just show me on a small scale objects over a curvature without being able to see this curvature. But you canít because its impossible.

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Stash

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Re: Curvature
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2021, 04:47:27 PM »
You're somehow missing the point and hung up on this "hump" business.

Imagine you are the size of an ant and are standing on a basketball. In all horizontal directions the ball is curving downward and away from you. Here's you standing on the basketball:


Put an object behind that curve on the ball.... then raise the camera just a tiny bit let's see if it matches reality... poor example here I said show me an object over a curvature without seeing the curvature.

This is poor lol we ain't glued to the ground we are above the ground our eyes ain't touching the floor like this camera is on the basketball.


So if you believe they are over the curvature then where is this curvature? Its impossible to have an object hidden behind curvature without being able to see curvature that's why it's impossible for you to replicate what we see in that picture on a small curved surface...

You're not making any sense. Why are the blades of the turbines slashing into the water?
They are not slashing into the water it's just an illusion.
watch this quick video it's very simple to understand, can you not see how if you have a very long distance that objects will appear to disappear bottom up? As you can see the bottles on this short distance seem to go down from the cameras perspective give a long enough distance and the bottles will end up merging with the ground which will give the illusion of the bottles sinking and they will disappear bottom up.

You are saying its curvature so there should be curvature to be seen like I have said so many times just show me on a small scale objects over a curvature without being able to see this curvature. But you canít because its impossible.

I don't see in the video the bottles disappearing from the bottom up. I can see the bottom of the furthest bottle in its entirety and quite clearly, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Re: Curvature
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2021, 05:02:15 PM »
You're somehow missing the point and hung up on this "hump" business.

Imagine you are the size of an ant and are standing on a basketball. In all horizontal directions the ball is curving downward and away from you. Here's you standing on the basketball:


Put an object behind that curve on the ball.... then raise the camera just a tiny bit let's see if it matches reality... poor example here I said show me an object over a curvature without seeing the curvature.

This is poor lol we ain't glued to the ground we are above the ground our eyes ain't touching the floor like this camera is on the basketball.


So if you believe they are over the curvature then where is this curvature? Its impossible to have an object hidden behind curvature without being able to see curvature that's why it's impossible for you to replicate what we see in that picture on a small curved surface...

You're not making any sense. Why are the blades of the turbines slashing into the water?
They are not slashing into the water it's just an illusion.
watch this quick video it's very simple to understand, can you not see how if you have a very long distance that objects will appear to disappear bottom up? As you can see the bottles on this short distance seem to go down from the cameras perspective give a long enough distance and the bottles will end up merging with the ground which will give the illusion of the bottles sinking and they will disappear bottom up.

You are saying its curvature so there should be curvature to be seen like I have said so many times just show me on a small scale objects over a curvature without being able to see this curvature. But you canít because its impossible.

I don't see in the video the bottles disappearing from the bottom up. I can see the bottom of the furthest bottle in its entirety and quite clearly, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.
of course you don't see the bottles disappearing bottom up because this is such a short distance but look at how the bottles are appearing to go downwards from the cameras perspective, now imagine you have a very long distance and loads of bottles going off in the distance can you not see how eventually the bottles will end up merging with the ground because where else are they going to go? If they keep going down and down then eventually they will merge with the ground but it's all just an illusion raise altitude and you will see they are all still the same height....

now watch this notice how when the camera is lowered you can't see the ends of the table ? And it looks like the car is at the ends? But when the camera is raised you can see more of the table? This is exactly what we see with the earth out at the horizon it will look like there is no more land to be seen from a certain height or perspective then raise altitude and change your perspective and more land keeps appearing just like on the flat table.  You can also make objects disappear on a flat surface which you could test yourself at home. If you have a short distance you will need to get a camera as close to the surface as possible and use a smaller object the longer distance you have the higher you can raise the camera. So we can observe what we see out on earth and we can replicate it on a flat surface on a small scale but the same can't be said for repeating it on a curved surface  ..

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Re: Curvature
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2021, 05:03:28 PM »
You're somehow missing the point and hung up on this "hump" business.

Imagine you are the size of an ant and are standing on a basketball. In all horizontal directions the ball is curving downward and away from you. Here's you standing on the basketball:


Put an object behind that curve on the ball.... then raise the camera just a tiny bit let's see if it matches reality... poor example here I said show me an object over a curvature without seeing the curvature.

This is poor lol we ain't glued to the ground we are above the ground our eyes ain't touching the floor like this camera is on the basketball.
Just how high above the ground do you think a human stands in relation to the size of the Earth?  Must be trolling.  Your stupid attempt to move the camera up higher is exactly what we say for the globe.  The higher you go the more you can see and at around 40 to 50 thousand feet there is enough of the Earth in your view to where your eyes can just start to resolve the curvature.  That camera on the basketball example would be analogous to being about that height already. 
Take the center of the field of view, vs the distance from it to the surface, take that and get a ratio between that height and the diameter of the basketball.  Now use that ratio and plug in the diameter of the Earth and solve for altitude(ie distance from the surface to the center of the camera).  The camera is pointed downwards to get it to look like it is on the surface but just to make it easy, take half the diameter of the camera aperture for your height, since it is a physical item that can't magically phase into the basketball to put its center tangentially on the basketball. 
But you should now claim you don't understand, or yell lies, or just lie yourself, just like ALL FE trolls do.