Curvature

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 04:04:43 PM

Quote from: Stash on November 10, 2021, 03:59:02 PM

You're somehow missing the point and hung up on this "hump" business.

Imagine you are the size of an ant and are standing on a basketball. In all horizontal directions the ball is curving downward and away from you. Here's you standing on the basketball:

Put an object behind that curve on the ball.... then raise the camera just a tiny bit let's see if it matches reality... poor example here I said show me an object over a curvature without seeing the curvature.

This is poor lol we ain't glued to the ground we are above the ground our eyes ain't touching the floor like this camera is on the basketball.

Just how high above the ground do you think a human stands in relation to the size of the Earth?  Must be trolling.  Your stupid attempt to move the camera up higher is exactly what we say for the globe.  The higher you go the more you can see and at around 40 to 50 thousand feet there is enough of the Earth in your view to where your eyes can just start to resolve the curvature.  That camera on the basketball example would be analogous to being about that height already. 
Take the center of the field of view, vs the distance from it to the surface, take that and get a ratio between that height and the diameter of the basketball.  Now use that ratio and plug in the diameter of the Earth and solve for altitude(ie distance from the surface to the center of the camera).  The camera is pointed downwards to get it to look like it is on the surface but just to make it easy, take half the diameter of the camera aperture for your height, since it is a physical item that can't magically phase into the basketball to put its center tangentially on the basketball. 
But you should now claim you don't understand, or yell lies, or just lie yourself, just like ALL FE trolls do.

So to start to see curvature we have to go 40 to 50 thousand feet high? So how does an object fully disappear over the curvature then? If the curvature is soo small like you say then objects ain't going over the curvature if the objects are over a curvature then we would see this curvature. I've asked several people on this post to show me on a small scale an object hidden behind curvature without being able to see this curvature none of you can produce this because its impossible I will even settle for a drawing of this just draw an object over the Curvature without being able to see this curvature.  I've given two  videos showing what we see over large bodies of water being replicated on a small scale.

I've given two  videos showing what we see over large bodies of water being replicated on a small scale.

Odd, because the bottom of the furthest bottle could be seen in your video. How is that a replication of how objects disappear bottom up when the bottom of the bottle didn't disappear? In others words, you haven't provided anything small or large scale.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 05:22:56 PM

I've given two  videos showing what we see over large bodies of water being replicated on a small scale.

Odd, because the bottom of the furthest bottle could be seen in your video. How is that a replication of how objects disappear bottom up when the bottom of the bottle didn't disappear? In others words, you haven't provided anything small or large scale.

I've given you a video which shows how objects will appear to dip down as they get further and further away which means eventually they will merge with the ground ,because you can't understand this simple fact I will have to do the experiment and get an object to disappear over a flat surface you could also do this yourself..

And the video with the car on a flat surface shows how we can see more land the higher and higher we go but you can’t replicate how we can see more and more on a small scale curved surface,  its literally impossible for you to replicate what we see on earth on a small curved surface. 

Quote from: Stash on November 10, 2021, 05:54:01 PM

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 05:22:56 PM

I've given two  videos showing what we see over large bodies of water being replicated on a small scale.

Odd, because the bottom of the furthest bottle could be seen in your video. How is that a replication of how objects disappear bottom up when the bottom of the bottle didn't disappear? In others words, you haven't provided anything small or large scale.

I've given you a video which shows how objects will appear to dip down as they get further and further away which means eventually they will merge with the ground ,because you can't understand this simple fact I will have to do the experiment and get an object to disappear over a flat surface you could also do this yourself..

The video did not show the the bottom of the bottle dipping down. I could still see it just as well as the bottom of the first bottle only further away and smaller. So I don’t know what you’re talking about. In others words you didn’t show anything.

And the video with the car on a flat surface shows how we can see more land the higher and higher we go but you can’t replicate how we can see more and more on a small scale curved surface,  its literally impossible for you to replicate what we see on earth on a small curved surface.

You mean the higher up you could see the end of a table? I have no idea what that shows other than seeing the end of a table.
You’re not making any sense. And it’s abundantly clear you don’t understand the concepts behind flat or globe earth theory.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 06:03:27 PM

Quote from: Stash on November 10, 2021, 05:54:01 PM

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 05:22:56 PM

I've given two  videos showing what we see over large bodies of water being replicated on a small scale.

Odd, because the bottom of the furthest bottle could be seen in your video. How is that a replication of how objects disappear bottom up when the bottom of the bottle didn't disappear? In others words, you haven't provided anything small or large scale.

I've given you a video which shows how objects will appear to dip down as they get further and further away which means eventually they will merge with the ground ,because you can't understand this simple fact I will have to do the experiment and get an object to disappear over a flat surface you could also do this yourself..

The video did not show the the bottom of the bottle dipping down. I could still see it just as well as the bottom of the first bottle only further away and smaller. So I don’t know what you’re talking about. In others words you didn’t show anything.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 06:03:27 PM

And the video with the car on a flat surface shows how we can see more land the higher and higher we go but you can’t replicate how we can see more and more on a small scale curved surface,  its literally impossible for you to replicate what we see on earth on a small curved surface.

You mean the higher up you could see the end of a table? I have no idea what that shows other than seeing the end of a table.
You’re not making any sense. And it’s abundantly clear you don’t understand the concepts behind flat or globe earth theory.

I never said you can't see the bottom of the bottles stop trying to twist what I'm saying, I have said the bottles APPEAR to go downwards from the cameras perspective so from this it's clear to see if you have a long enough distance the bottles will eventually merge with the ground which would make the bottoms disappear.

Yes as you go higher up more and more of the table can be seen a common argument against flat earth is we should be able to see forever but that video shows us we can't, at lower altitudes we see less land which the camera shows when it's lower when it's raised more of the table comes into view,you seriously trying to say you don't understand this? Why when the camera is lower why does it look like the car is at the ends of the table? Why does more table become visible when the camera is raised? My point is this is what also happens on earth something will look like its on the horizon and there is no more land to be seen but then raise the altitude and more land is visible. Its literally observable, testable, repeatable evidence.  You would say more land is visible because the earth is curved but this shows it works on a flat earth. There's no way you can deny this unless you just don't want to accept reality and facts.

it's so obvious to understand that they ain't going over no curvature it's all just an illusion  , you can't always trust your eyes. It's more complicated than just seeing a ship disappear then just saying meh curvature takes more thinking than that to understand.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 04:04:43 PM

Quote from: Stash on November 10, 2021, 03:59:02 PM

You're somehow missing the point and hung up on this "hump" business.

Imagine you are the size of an ant and are standing on a basketball. In all horizontal directions the ball is curving downward and away from you. Here's you standing on the basketball:

Put an object behind that curve on the ball.... then raise the camera just a tiny bit let's see if it matches reality... poor example here I said show me an object over a curvature without seeing the curvature.

This is poor lol we ain't glued to the ground we are above the ground our eyes ain't touching the floor like this camera is on the basketball.

Just how high above the ground do you think a human stands in relation to the size of the Earth?  Must be trolling.  Your stupid attempt to move the camera up higher is exactly what we say for the globe.  The higher you go the more you can see and at around 40 to 50 thousand feet there is enough of the Earth in your view to where your eyes can just start to resolve the curvature.  That camera on the basketball example would be analogous to being about that height already. 
Take the center of the field of view, vs the distance from it to the surface, take that and get a ratio between that height and the diameter of the basketball.  Now use that ratio and plug in the diameter of the Earth and solve for altitude(ie distance from the surface to the center of the camera).  The camera is pointed downwards to get it to look like it is on the surface but just to make it easy, take half the diameter of the camera aperture for your height, since it is a physical item that can't magically phase into the basketball to put its center tangentially on the basketball. 
But you should now claim you don't understand, or yell lies, or just lie yourself, just like ALL FE trolls do.

Lol you mad

Well I guess how big of a distance we are looking it's hard to tell its flat

Which is the point that is being made.
You are looking for a change in a few 10s of m over a distance of 10s of thousands of m.
You cannot see that by eye.

You need something else, like an observation of a distant object with the base obscured, or an accurate measurement of the angle of dip to the horizon, or observations of how far away the horizon is and how that varies with elevation.

but it's pretty flat regardless there definitely isn't a curvature

How can you tell there "definitely isn't a curvature" when you have just admitted that it is quite hard to tell it is flat?

The statement cannot ever be true. You can NEVER actually measure "no curvature at all". Instead all you can do is get the curvature down to a certain threshold, and know the curve, if it is there, must be less than that.

Even if Earth was perfectly flat, you would only ever be able to restrict it with some upper bound.

So just what threshold have you determined?

in your diagram it is easy to make out a curvature

In the to scale one, it is not.
You are tiny compared to Earth. Earth is massive.

And even then, that is a side view.
It is much easier to see the curve from a side view, than curving as it goes away from you.

And no, you don't expect to see any significant curve like that for Earth, because the horizon is the same angle of dip all around.

an object cannot be fully hidden by curvature but this curvature not be seen at the same time I literally cannot understand this one bit to me this is the same thing as hiding something behind a wall and acting like you shouldn't be able to see the wall.

No, it is more like hiding something behind a gently bending wall and not being able to tell the wall is bent.
Again, it is due to the massively different scales.

Can you show me on a small scale an object over a curvature without seeing this curvature?

Can you get me a ball with a diameter of 6.4 m, with a camera which is less than 2 um tall?
If not, probably not.

Again, the point is when you go to a tiny ball, you are quite large compared to it and viewing it from a considerable distance.
But for Earth, you are tiny, viewing it from practically no distance.
The best you would get is a simulation. Is that good enough?

This doesn't make sense what you are saying , from your diagram if person a was the red stick and person b was the black stick and they both turned to look at each other they both can't be looking down at each other one of them has to be looking up towards the other how is it possible for them to both be looking down at eachother?

Like I said before, down is relative.
The direction of down for red is different to the direction of down for black.
Red sees black below them, and thus they would say they are above black.
But black uses a different direction of down.
To black, red is below them.

If you would like a more understandable example, consider this:

This shows 2 people roughly facing each other.
The Red is looking towards the top of the image.
The Black is looking towards the bottom.

If you asked the Red if Black was to the right or left what would they say? Right.
If you asked the Black if Red was to the right or left what would they say? Right.

But how can both be to the right of each other?
Because right is relative.

If it's such a tiny curve then how can it hide objects fully? I'll ask you aswell can you show me on a small scale how this works?

It is a tiny curve, hiding a few tiny 10s m, over a distance of a few 10s thousand m.
The height that it hides is a tiny portion of the distance.

So where is this hump? Why can't you raise altitude and see this hump?

Because it isn't a hump that goes up. In that sense you are on top of the hump.
In the sense of it being a hump at an angle, lifting yourself up just moves the peak of that hump further away.

Just what are you expecting to see?

So why is the horizon pretty much horizontal? I can't see any hump looking to the horizon at all .

Because it is the same angle of dip all around.
You seem to want to see the hump from the side.

This is poor lol we ain't glued to the ground we are above the ground our eyes ain't touching the floor like this camera is on the basketball.

Yes, you are arguing quite poorly. Completely ignoring what has been said.
That camera is far to high above the ball.

Earth has a diameter of roughly 12742 km.
Being generous, you are 2 m tall. That means you are 1 part in 6,371,000 parts.

A basketball has a diameter of roughly 24 cm.
That means to match you, as a to scale model, you need the camera a mere 0.0000038 cm = 38 nm.
For comparison, blue light has a wavelength of ~400 nm.

The peaks on the basketball correspond to mountains larger than any on Earth.

So it is quite poor to ignore all this and again ask for a small scale version.

Its impossible to have an object hidden behind curvature without being able to see curvature

Why?
You have repeatedly asserted that, but are yet to substantiate it.
Especially not in any way that makes sense given that seeing the object hidden is seeing the curvature.

Did the basketball look curved in that photo? No. Do you think that magically makes it impossible for a basketball to hide things?

They are not slashing into the water it's just an illusion.

Perspective makes things smaller.
It doesn't magically hide the bottom.

can you not see how if you have a very long distance that objects will appear to disappear bottom up?

No, I can't, as it makes no sense at all.
Why should objects magically disappear from the bottom up, rather than simply shrinking?
In the video of lies you linked, the bottoms of the containers are visible. Nothing is hidden, except by the bottles in front.

Given enough distance, they will shrink until they are not resolvable. But that doesn't magically hide the bottom. It means none of it is resolvable.
But look at the turbines. The blades are quite clearly resolvable so that is NOT what is happening.

Try showing on a small scale, objects disappearing from the bottom up without a curve.

of course you don't see the bottles disappearing bottom up because this is such a short distance

So why do you keep demanding small scale observations of objects disappearing over a curve without seeing it?

look at how the bottles are appearing to go downwards from the cameras perspective

The top is. The bottom appears to be going up, along with the table.
They are converging, just like you would expect parallel lines to.
That doesn't make the bottom magically vanish.

notice how when the camera is lowered you can't see the ends of the table ? And it looks like the car is at the ends?

No, I don't.
I can still see parts of the table beyond the car, and far more importantly, THE ENTIRE CAR IS VISIBLE.

The bottom is not magically obscured, because there is no curve to obscure it.

You can also make objects disappear on a flat surface which you could test yourself at home.

No, you can't.
Which is likely why you haven't provided a video of such a magical occurrence.
So no, you cannot replicate what we see on Earth on a flat surface.

This is because you need something to physically obstruct the path, and a flat surface can't do that.


But the bottom of an object being obscured is quite easy to replicate on a curved surface.

I never said you can't see the bottom of the bottles stop trying to twist what I'm saying

But that is the key issue.
On a flat surface, things get smaller, but the entire object is visible, or eventually gets too small to resolve.
It doesn't matter how far away an object is, if it is resolvable, the bottom is visible.

But on a curved surface, as it gets further away, the curve obstructs the view.

I have said the bottles APPEAR to go downwards from the cameras perspective

And that is a blatant lie.
The TOP goes down. The bottom goes up, along with the table.
This is entirely consistent with the known laws of perspective so from this it's clear to see that regardless of how long a distance you have, you will never just hide the bottom.

a common argument against flat earth is we should be able to see forever but that video shows us we can't

No, it doesn't show us that we can't.
What makes you say you can't see the edge of the table?

Just what is blocking the view?

at lower altitudes we see less land

No, at lower altitudes, the table takes up less vertical space in your FOV, because you are seeing it more end on. You don't see less of it.

Your "points" are nothing more than blatant lies.

You are right that it is observable, repeatable and testable, and these show you are wrong.

And great job including the video from TheaPrincess, where they blatantly lie about the relative heights:

it's all just an illusion  , you can't always trust your eyes

Yet you trust it completely to falsely conclude Earth is flat, even with ample evidence showing otherwise.
You even trust it completely to falsely conclude that you can't see the table.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 04:29:34 PM

They are not slashing into the water it's just an illusion.

Perspective makes things smaller.
It doesn't magically hide the bottom.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 04:29:34 PM

can you not see how if you have a very long distance that objects will appear to disappear bottom up?

No, I can't, as it makes no sense at all.
Why should objects magically disappear from the bottom up, rather than simply shrinking?
In the video of lies you linked, the bottoms of the containers are visible. Nothing is hidden, except by the bottles in front.

Given enough distance, they will shrink until they are not resolvable. But that doesn't magically hide the bottom. It means none of it is resolvable.
But look at the turbines. The blades are quite clearly resolvable so that is NOT what is happening.

Try showing on a small scale, objects disappearing from the bottom up without a curve.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 05:02:15 PM

of course you don't see the bottles disappearing bottom up because this is such a short distance

So why do you keep demanding small scale observations of objects disappearing over a curve without seeing it?

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 05:02:15 PM

look at how the bottles are appearing to go downwards from the cameras perspective

The top is. The bottom appears to be going up, along with the table.
They are converging, just like you would expect parallel lines to.
That doesn't make the bottom magically vanish.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 05:02:15 PM

notice how when the camera is lowered you can't see the ends of the table ? And it looks like the car is at the ends?

No, I don't.
I can still see parts of the table beyond the car, and far more importantly, THE ENTIRE CAR IS VISIBLE.

The bottom is not magically obscured, because there is no curve to obscure it.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 05:02:15 PM

You can also make objects disappear on a flat surface which you could test yourself at home.

No, you can't.
Which is likely why you haven't provided a video of such a magical occurrence.
So no, you cannot replicate what we see on Earth on a flat surface.

This is because you need something to physically obstruct the path, and a flat surface can't do that.


But the bottom of an object being obscured is quite easy to replicate on a curved surface.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 12:47:10 AM

I never said you can't see the bottom of the bottles stop trying to twist what I'm saying

But that is the key issue.
On a flat surface, things get smaller, but the entire object is visible, or eventually gets too small to resolve.
It doesn't matter how far away an object is, if it is resolvable, the bottom is visible.

But on a curved surface, as it gets further away, the curve obstructs the view.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 12:47:10 AM

I have said the bottles APPEAR to go downwards from the cameras perspective

And that is a blatant lie.
The TOP goes down. The bottom goes up, along with the table.
This is entirely consistent with the known laws of perspective so from this it's clear to see that regardless of how long a distance you have, you will never just hide the bottom.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 12:47:10 AM

a common argument against flat earth is we should be able to see forever but that video shows us we can't

No, it doesn't show us that we can't.
What makes you say you can't see the edge of the table?

Just what is blocking the view?

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 12:47:10 AM

at lower altitudes we see less land

No, at lower altitudes, the table takes up less vertical space in your FOV, because you are seeing it more end on. You don't see less of it.

Your "points" are nothing more than blatant lies.

You are right that it is observable, repeatable and testable, and these show you are wrong.

And great job including the video from TheaPrincess, where they blatantly lie about the relative heights:

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 12:47:10 AM

it's all just an illusion  , you can't always trust your eyes

Yet you trust it completely to falsely conclude Earth is flat, even with ample evidence showing otherwise.
You even trust it completely to falsely conclude that you can't see the table.

All you've done is bring up an image with lines on it. Where's your video proof?

All you've done is bring up an image with lines on it. Where's your video proof?

They provided the video that proves they are wrong.
I exposed the lies in the video, with a simple image I had prepared earlier from someone else using the same footage to lie about how the horizon works to pretend Earth is flat.

The lie in the video is that the distance ratio remains the same. So the red lines should be colinear. But instead, when the ship is further away, the top takes up a larger portion, as if has sunk into the ocean, strongly supporting the fact that Earth is round, and refuting the idea of Earth being flat.

Quote from: ChineseHobo123 on November 11, 2021, 02:26:14 AM

All you've done is bring up an image with lines on it. Where's your video proof?

They provided the video that proves they are wrong.
I exposed the lies in the video, with a simple image I had prepared earlier from someone else using the same footage to lie about how the horizon works to pretend Earth is flat.

The lie in the video is that the distance ratio remains the same. So the red lines should be colinear. But instead, when the ship is further away, the top takes up a larger portion, as if has sunk into the ocean, strongly supporting the fact that Earth is round, and refuting the idea of Earth being flat.

If you're so right then why don't you link a video proving your point?

If you're so right then why don't you link a video proving your point?

Ample evidence proving my point has already been provided.
And that is yet to be actually dealt with.
Why do you need more?

Quote from: ChineseHobo123 on November 11, 2021, 02:32:44 AM

If you're so right then why don't you link a video proving your point?

Ample evidence proving my point has already been provided.
And that is yet to be actually dealt with.
Why do you need more?

I'm just asking for one video supporting your point of view.

Quote from: Mikey T. on November 10, 2021, 05:03:28 PM

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 04:04:43 PM

Quote from: Stash on November 10, 2021, 03:59:02 PM

You're somehow missing the point and hung up on this "hump" business.

Imagine you are the size of an ant and are standing on a basketball. In all horizontal directions the ball is curving downward and away from you. Here's you standing on the basketball:

Put an object behind that curve on the ball.... then raise the camera just a tiny bit let's see if it matches reality... poor example here I said show me an object over a curvature without seeing the curvature.

This is poor lol we ain't glued to the ground we are above the ground our eyes ain't touching the floor like this camera is on the basketball.

Just how high above the ground do you think a human stands in relation to the size of the Earth?  Must be trolling.  Your stupid attempt to move the camera up higher is exactly what we say for the globe.  The higher you go the more you can see and at around 40 to 50 thousand feet there is enough of the Earth in your view to where your eyes can just start to resolve the curvature.  That camera on the basketball example would be analogous to being about that height already. 
Take the center of the field of view, vs the distance from it to the surface, take that and get a ratio between that height and the diameter of the basketball.  Now use that ratio and plug in the diameter of the Earth and solve for altitude(ie distance from the surface to the center of the camera).  The camera is pointed downwards to get it to look like it is on the surface but just to make it easy, take half the diameter of the camera aperture for your height, since it is a physical item that can't magically phase into the basketball to put its center tangentially on the basketball. 
But you should now claim you don't understand, or yell lies, or just lie yourself, just like ALL FE trolls do.

So to start to see curvature we have to go 40 to 50 thousand feet high? So how does an object fully disappear over the curvature then? If the curvature is soo small like you say then objects ain't going over the curvature if the objects are over a curvature then we would see this curvature. I've asked several people on this post to show me on a small scale an object hidden behind curvature without being able to see this curvature none of you can produce this because its impossible I will even settle for a drawing of this just draw an object over the Curvature without being able to see this curvature.  I've given two  videos showing what we see over large bodies of water being replicated on a small scale.

So you chose to just lie.  Ok. 
Why can't an object moving away from you slowly disappear over the curvature?  Don't just blatantly lie, explain. 
You can see the objects traveling away from you being obscured by the Earth bottom up.
Why is this a problem?  Are you a scepti fan?  Is this another form of level sight craziness? 

of course you don't see the bottles disappearing bottom up because this is such a short distance but look at how the bottles are appearing to go downwards from the cameras perspective, now imagine you have a very long distance and loads of bottles going off in the distance can you not see how eventually the bottles will end up merging with the ground because where else are they going to go? If they keep going down and down then eventually they will merge with the ground but it's all just an illusion raise altitude and you will see they are all still the same height....

Where do you see they are just going "down"? I see them going down AND going up:



Why would only the bottom of the bottles merge with the ground? Perspective just shows them uniformly getting smaller with no bias toward the top or bottom.

now watch this notice how when the camera is lowered you can't see the ends of the table ? And it looks like the car is at the ends? But when the camera is raised you can see more of the table? This is exactly what we see with the earth out at the horizon it will look like there is no more land to be seen from a certain height or perspective then raise altitude and change your perspective and more land keeps appearing just like on the flat table.  You can also make objects disappear on a flat surface which you could test yourself at home. If you have a short distance you will need to get a camera as close to the surface as possible and use a smaller object the longer distance you have the higher you can raise the camera.

Wow, so the higher up someone goes the further they can see off into the distance? Shocking! What a revelation you have had. I bet this has not occurred to anyone before.

So we can observe what we see out on earth and we can replicate it on a flat surface on a small scale but the same can't be said for repeating it on a curved surface 

As far as replicating anything on a small scale, you've already failed at that with the bottle video. The video does not replicate the bottoms disappearing first so I have no idea what you're talking about.

As far as replicating anything with the car and table, you've shown that the higher up one goes, the further they can see? Again, wow! So what?

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 02:07:11 PM

Well I guess how big of a distance we are looking it's hard to tell its flat

Which is the point that is being made.
You are looking for a change in a few 10s of m over a distance of 10s of thousands of m.
You cannot see that by eye.

You need something else, like an observation of a distant object with the base obscured, or an accurate measurement of the angle of dip to the horizon, or observations of how far away the horizon is and how that varies with elevation.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 01:13:30 PM

but it's pretty flat regardless there definitely isn't a curvature

How can you tell there "definitely isn't a curvature" when you have just admitted that it is quite hard to tell it is flat?

The statement cannot ever be true. You can NEVER actually measure "no curvature at all". Instead all you can do is get the curvature down to a certain threshold, and know the curve, if it is there, must be less than that.

Even if Earth was perfectly flat, you would only ever be able to restrict it with some upper bound.

So just what threshold have you determined?

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 01:13:30 PM

in your diagram it is easy to make out a curvature

In the to scale one, it is not.
You are tiny compared to Earth. Earth is massive.

And even then, that is a side view.
It is much easier to see the curve from a side view, than curving as it goes away from you.

And no, you don't expect to see any significant curve like that for Earth, because the horizon is the same angle of dip all around.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 01:13:30 PM

an object cannot be fully hidden by curvature but this curvature not be seen at the same time I literally cannot understand this one bit to me this is the same thing as hiding something behind a wall and acting like you shouldn't be able to see the wall.

No, it is more like hiding something behind a gently bending wall and not being able to tell the wall is bent.
Again, it is due to the massively different scales.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 01:13:30 PM

Can you show me on a small scale an object over a curvature without seeing this curvature?

Can you get me a ball with a diameter of 6.4 m, with a camera which is less than 2 um tall?
If not, probably not.

Again, the point is when you go to a tiny ball, you are quite large compared to it and viewing it from a considerable distance.
But for Earth, you are tiny, viewing it from practically no distance.
The best you would get is a simulation. Is that good enough?

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 01:13:30 PM

This doesn't make sense what you are saying , from your diagram if person a was the red stick and person b was the black stick and they both turned to look at each other they both can't be looking down at each other one of them has to be looking up towards the other how is it possible for them to both be looking down at eachother?

Like I said before, down is relative.
The direction of down for red is different to the direction of down for black.
Red sees black below them, and thus they would say they are above black.
But black uses a different direction of down.
To black, red is below them.

If you would like a more understandable example, consider this:

This shows 2 people roughly facing each other.
The Red is looking towards the top of the image.
The Black is looking towards the bottom.

If you asked the Red if Black was to the right or left what would they say? Right.
If you asked the Black if Red was to the right or left what would they say? Right.

But how can both be to the right of each other?
Because right is relative.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 02:54:02 PM

If it's such a tiny curve then how can it hide objects fully? I'll ask you aswell can you show me on a small scale how this works?

It is a tiny curve, hiding a few tiny 10s m, over a distance of a few 10s thousand m.
The height that it hides is a tiny portion of the distance.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 02:59:00 PM

So where is this hump? Why can't you raise altitude and see this hump?

Because it isn't a hump that goes up. In that sense you are on top of the hump.
In the sense of it being a hump at an angle, lifting yourself up just moves the peak of that hump further away.

Just what are you expecting to see?

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 03:34:45 PM

So why is the horizon pretty much horizontal? I can't see any hump looking to the horizon at all .

Because it is the same angle of dip all around.
You seem to want to see the hump from the side.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 04:04:43 PM

This is poor lol we ain't glued to the ground we are above the ground our eyes ain't touching the floor like this camera is on the basketball.

Yes, you are arguing quite poorly. Completely ignoring what has been said.
That camera is far to high above the ball.

Earth has a diameter of roughly 12742 km.
Being generous, you are 2 m tall. That means you are 1 part in 6,371,000 parts.

A basketball has a diameter of roughly 24 cm.
That means to match you, as a to scale model, you need the camera a mere 0.0000038 cm = 38 nm.
For comparison, blue light has a wavelength of ~400 nm.

The peaks on the basketball correspond to mountains larger than any on Earth.

So it is quite poor to ignore all this and again ask for a small scale version.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 04:10:35 PM

Its impossible to have an object hidden behind curvature without being able to see curvature

Why?
You have repeatedly asserted that, but are yet to substantiate it.
Especially not in any way that makes sense given that seeing the object hidden is seeing the curvature.

Did the basketball look curved in that photo? No. Do you think that magically makes it impossible for a basketball to hide things?

You can't have an object hidden by curvature without seeing this curvature it's impossible you should be able to repeat this on a small scale.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 04:29:34 PM

They are not slashing into the water it's just an illusion.

Perspective makes things smaller.
It doesn't magically hide the bottom.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 04:29:34 PM

can you not see how if you have a very long distance that objects will appear to disappear bottom up?

No, I can't, as it makes no sense at all.
Why should objects magically disappear from the bottom up, rather than simply shrinking?
In the video of lies you linked, the bottoms of the containers are visible. Nothing is hidden, except by the bottles in front.

Given enough distance, they will shrink until they are not resolvable. But that doesn't magically hide the bottom. It means none of it is resolvable.
But look at the turbines. The blades are quite clearly resolvable so that is NOT what is happening.

Try showing on a small scale, objects disappearing from the bottom up without a curve.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 05:02:15 PM

of course you don't see the bottles disappearing bottom up because this is such a short distance

So why do you keep demanding small scale observations of objects disappearing over a curve without seeing it?

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 05:02:15 PM

look at how the bottles are appearing to go downwards from the cameras perspective

The top is. The bottom appears to be going up, along with the table.
They are converging, just like you would expect parallel lines to.
That doesn't make the bottom magically vanish.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 05:02:15 PM

notice how when the camera is lowered you can't see the ends of the table ? And it looks like the car is at the ends?

No, I don't.
I can still see parts of the table beyond the car, and far more importantly, THE ENTIRE CAR IS VISIBLE.

The bottom is not magically obscured, because there is no curve to obscure it.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 05:02:15 PM

You can also make objects disappear on a flat surface which you could test yourself at home.

No, you can't.
Which is likely why you haven't provided a video of such a magical occurrence.
So no, you cannot replicate what we see on Earth on a flat surface.

This is because you need something to physically obstruct the path, and a flat surface can't do that.


But the bottom of an object being obscured is quite easy to replicate on a curved surface.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 12:47:10 AM

I never said you can't see the bottom of the bottles stop trying to twist what I'm saying

But that is the key issue.
On a flat surface, things get smaller, but the entire object is visible, or eventually gets too small to resolve.
It doesn't matter how far away an object is, if it is resolvable, the bottom is visible.

But on a curved surface, as it gets further away, the curve obstructs the view.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 12:47:10 AM

I have said the bottles APPEAR to go downwards from the cameras perspective

And that is a blatant lie.
The TOP goes down. The bottom goes up, along with the table.
This is entirely consistent with the known laws of perspective so from this it's clear to see that regardless of how long a distance you have, you will never just hide the bottom.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 12:47:10 AM

a common argument against flat earth is we should be able to see forever but that video shows us we can't

No, it doesn't show us that we can't.
What makes you say you can't see the edge of the table?

Just what is blocking the view?

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 12:47:10 AM

at lower altitudes we see less land

No, at lower altitudes, the table takes up less vertical space in your FOV, because you are seeing it more end on. You don't see less of it.

Your "points" are nothing more than blatant lies.

You are right that it is observable, repeatable and testable, and these show you are wrong.

And great job including the video from TheaPrincess, where they blatantly lie about the relative heights:

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 12:47:10 AM

it's all just an illusion  , you can't always trust your eyes

Yet you trust it completely to falsely conclude Earth is flat, even with ample evidence showing otherwise.
You even trust it completely to falsely conclude that you can't see the table.

I will show you objects disappearing bottom up on a flat surface I just need to get a long enough flat surface.

You can't see more of the table when the camera is low the car looks like it is at the ends of the table, of course you can still see the car because it's such a short distance....

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 05:22:56 PM

Quote from: Mikey T. on November 10, 2021, 05:03:28 PM

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 04:04:43 PM

Quote from: Stash on November 10, 2021, 03:59:02 PM

You're somehow missing the point and hung up on this "hump" business.

Imagine you are the size of an ant and are standing on a basketball. In all horizontal directions the ball is curving downward and away from you. Here's you standing on the basketball:

Put an object behind that curve on the ball.... then raise the camera just a tiny bit let's see if it matches reality... poor example here I said show me an object over a curvature without seeing the curvature.

This is poor lol we ain't glued to the ground we are above the ground our eyes ain't touching the floor like this camera is on the basketball.

Just how high above the ground do you think a human stands in relation to the size of the Earth?  Must be trolling.  Your stupid attempt to move the camera up higher is exactly what we say for the globe.  The higher you go the more you can see and at around 40 to 50 thousand feet there is enough of the Earth in your view to where your eyes can just start to resolve the curvature.  That camera on the basketball example would be analogous to being about that height already. 
Take the center of the field of view, vs the distance from it to the surface, take that and get a ratio between that height and the diameter of the basketball.  Now use that ratio and plug in the diameter of the Earth and solve for altitude(ie distance from the surface to the center of the camera).  The camera is pointed downwards to get it to look like it is on the surface but just to make it easy, take half the diameter of the camera aperture for your height, since it is a physical item that can't magically phase into the basketball to put its center tangentially on the basketball. 
But you should now claim you don't understand, or yell lies, or just lie yourself, just like ALL FE trolls do.

So to start to see curvature we have to go 40 to 50 thousand feet high? So how does an object fully disappear over the curvature then? If the curvature is soo small like you say then objects ain't going over the curvature if the objects are over a curvature then we would see this curvature. I've asked several people on this post to show me on a small scale an object hidden behind curvature without being able to see this curvature none of you can produce this because its impossible I will even settle for a drawing of this just draw an object over the Curvature without being able to see this curvature.  I've given two  videos showing what we see over large bodies of water being replicated on a small scale.

So you chose to just lie.  Ok. 
Why can't an object moving away from you slowly disappear over the curvature?  Don't just blatantly lie, explain. 
You can see the objects traveling away from you being obscured by the Earth bottom up.
Why is this a problem?  Are you a scepti fan?  Is this another form of level sight craziness?

where have I lied? .. an object moving away if it was going over a curvature you would be able to see this curvature it is going over its not possible to have an object go over a curvature without being able to see this curvature if its possible then you should be able to show me how this works on a small scale.

Just because objects get obscured doesn't mean it's a curvature do you believe everything you see with your eyes ? Do you not believe your eyes can be tricked ? Or is it just easier for you to see something disappear and say it's curvature and leave it at that? Is it too hard to actually think about it and figure out what actually is happening because I know some people don't like to use their brains so they take the most simple answer.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 05:02:15 PM

of course you don't see the bottles disappearing bottom up because this is such a short distance but look at how the bottles are appearing to go downwards from the cameras perspective, now imagine you have a very long distance and loads of bottles going off in the distance can you not see how eventually the bottles will end up merging with the ground because where else are they going to go? If they keep going down and down then eventually they will merge with the ground but it's all just an illusion raise altitude and you will see they are all still the same height....

Where do you see they are just going "down"? I see them going down AND going up:



Why would only the bottom of the bottles merge with the ground? Perspective just shows them uniformly getting smaller with no bias toward the top or bottom.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 05:02:15 PM

now watch this notice how when the camera is lowered you can't see the ends of the table ? And it looks like the car is at the ends? But when the camera is raised you can see more of the table? This is exactly what we see with the earth out at the horizon it will look like there is no more land to be seen from a certain height or perspective then raise altitude and change your perspective and more land keeps appearing just like on the flat table.  You can also make objects disappear on a flat surface which you could test yourself at home. If you have a short distance you will need to get a camera as close to the surface as possible and use a smaller object the longer distance you have the higher you can raise the camera.

Wow, so the higher up someone goes the further they can see off into the distance? Shocking! What a revelation you have had. I bet this has not occurred to anyone before.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 05:02:15 PM

So we can observe what we see out on earth and we can replicate it on a flat surface on a small scale but the same can't be said for repeating it on a curved surface 

As far as replicating anything on a small scale, you've already failed at that with the bottle video. The video does not replicate the bottoms disappearing first so I have no idea what you're talking about.

As far as replicating anything with the car and table, you've shown that the higher up one goes, the further they can see? Again, wow! So what?

yes they appear to go up and they also appear to go downwards... long enough distance and they would merge with the ground  .

Well people who believe we live on a sphere use being able to see further when going higher proof we live on a sphere what that video with the car shows is on a flat earth you also see further as you go higher,  apparently according to people who believe we live on a sphere we should be able to see forever on a flat earth obviously we can't.   

Quote from: Stash on November 11, 2021, 08:29:42 AM

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 05:02:15 PM

of course you don't see the bottles disappearing bottom up because this is such a short distance but look at how the bottles are appearing to go downwards from the cameras perspective, now imagine you have a very long distance and loads of bottles going off in the distance can you not see how eventually the bottles will end up merging with the ground because where else are they going to go? If they keep going down and down then eventually they will merge with the ground but it's all just an illusion raise altitude and you will see they are all still the same height....

Where do you see they are just going "down"? I see them going down AND going up:



Why would only the bottom of the bottles merge with the ground? Perspective just shows them uniformly getting smaller with no bias toward the top or bottom.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 05:02:15 PM

now watch this notice how when the camera is lowered you can't see the ends of the table ? And it looks like the car is at the ends? But when the camera is raised you can see more of the table? This is exactly what we see with the earth out at the horizon it will look like there is no more land to be seen from a certain height or perspective then raise altitude and change your perspective and more land keeps appearing just like on the flat table.  You can also make objects disappear on a flat surface which you could test yourself at home. If you have a short distance you will need to get a camera as close to the surface as possible and use a smaller object the longer distance you have the higher you can raise the camera.

Wow, so the higher up someone goes the further they can see off into the distance? Shocking! What a revelation you have had. I bet this has not occurred to anyone before.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 05:02:15 PM

So we can observe what we see out on earth and we can replicate it on a flat surface on a small scale but the same can't be said for repeating it on a curved surface 

As far as replicating anything on a small scale, you've already failed at that with the bottle video. The video does not replicate the bottoms disappearing first so I have no idea what you're talking about.

As far as replicating anything with the car and table, you've shown that the higher up one goes, the further they can see? Again, wow! So what?

yes they appear to go up and they also appear to go downwards... long enough distance and they would merge with the ground.

Now you're getting it - Upward AND downward, not just downward like you've been claiming. Over a long distance they would become so uniformly small that you wouldn't be able to see them anymore. However, there's no bias toward a bottom up disappearance. The cap on top would get smaller in the same proportion as the bottom of the bottle. Where you're getting this bottom up disappearance due to perspective thing is not viable and has not been demonstrated. You haven't presented a small scale example showing that, something you keep asking other's for.

Well people who believe we live on a sphere use being able to see further when going higher proof we live on a sphere what that video with the car shows is on a flat earth you also see further as you go higher,  apparently according to people who believe we live on a sphere we should be able to see forever on a flat earth obviously we can't.

I don't know any globe adherent that says the higher you go, the further you can see, therefore a round earth. Where is that coming from? There's the old flat earth convention that the horizon always rises to eye-level, therefore a flat earth. But that has been endlessly proven to be incorrect. But I know nothing of what you are claiming that globe earth people believe.

Some people might ask why they can't see forever on a flat earth, but those folks don't understand globe or flat earth theory.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 09:46:07 AM

Quote from: Stash on November 11, 2021, 08:29:42 AM

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 05:02:15 PM

of course you don't see the bottles disappearing bottom up because this is such a short distance but look at how the bottles are appearing to go downwards from the cameras perspective, now imagine you have a very long distance and loads of bottles going off in the distance can you not see how eventually the bottles will end up merging with the ground because where else are they going to go? If they keep going down and down then eventually they will merge with the ground but it's all just an illusion raise altitude and you will see they are all still the same height....

Where do you see they are just going "down"? I see them going down AND going up:



Why would only the bottom of the bottles merge with the ground? Perspective just shows them uniformly getting smaller with no bias toward the top or bottom.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 05:02:15 PM

now watch this notice how when the camera is lowered you can't see the ends of the table ? And it looks like the car is at the ends? But when the camera is raised you can see more of the table? This is exactly what we see with the earth out at the horizon it will look like there is no more land to be seen from a certain height or perspective then raise altitude and change your perspective and more land keeps appearing just like on the flat table.  You can also make objects disappear on a flat surface which you could test yourself at home. If you have a short distance you will need to get a camera as close to the surface as possible and use a smaller object the longer distance you have the higher you can raise the camera.

Wow, so the higher up someone goes the further they can see off into the distance? Shocking! What a revelation you have had. I bet this has not occurred to anyone before.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 05:02:15 PM

So we can observe what we see out on earth and we can replicate it on a flat surface on a small scale but the same can't be said for repeating it on a curved surface 

As far as replicating anything on a small scale, you've already failed at that with the bottle video. The video does not replicate the bottoms disappearing first so I have no idea what you're talking about.

As far as replicating anything with the car and table, you've shown that the higher up one goes, the further they can see? Again, wow! So what?

yes they appear to go up and they also appear to go downwards... long enough distance and they would merge with the ground.

Now you're getting it - Upward AND downward, not just downward like you've been claiming. Over a long distance they would become so uniformly small that you wouldn't be able to see them anymore. However, there's no bias toward a bottom up disappearance. The cap on top would get smaller in the same proportion as the bottom of the bottle. Where you're getting this bottom up disappearance due to perspective thing is not viable and has not been demonstrated. You haven't presented a small scale example showing that, something you keep asking other's for.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 09:46:07 AM

Well people who believe we live on a sphere use being able to see further when going higher proof we live on a sphere what that video with the car shows is on a flat earth you also see further as you go higher,  apparently according to people who believe we live on a sphere we should be able to see forever on a flat earth obviously we can't.

I don't know any globe adherent that says the higher you go, the further you can see, therefore a round earth. Where is that coming from? There's the old flat earth convention that the horizon always rises to eye-level, therefore a flat earth. But that has been endlessly proven to be incorrect. But I know nothing of what you are claiming that globe earth people believe.

Some people might ask why they can't see forever on a flat earth, but those folks don't understand globe or flat earth theory.

Objects do get smaller on earth just like the bottles would I will show you the experiment when I can.

https://www.popsci.com/10-ways-you-can-prove-earth-is-round/ number 5

I don't know any globe adherent that says the higher you go, the further you can see, therefore a round earth. Where is that coming from? There's the old flat earth convention that the horizon always rises to eye-level, therefore a flat earth. But that has been endlessly proven to be incorrect. But I know nothing of what you are claiming that globe earth people believe.

Some people might ask why they can't see forever on a flat earth, but those folks don't understand globe or flat earth theory.

This is strong evidence of a RE, but only when there aren't hills or mountains or the like, such as out at sea.
Standing on the beach at sea level, the horizon is a mere 5 km away.
But get up higher and it can be much futher.
There is no reason for this on a FE, as there is nothing to obstruct the view.
But there is a reason for it on a RE.

The bottom of objects being obscured is just one manifestation of this.
If Earth was flat, you should be able to see the bottom of the object. That means the horizon should be at least that far away.
But because Earth is round, the curve blocks the view and gives a much closer horizon.

Some FEers like appealing to the atmosphere not being clear enough. But this doesn't explain why the horizon is so close when near sea level, nor does it explain why there is often such a clear horizon.

Can you explain why you should be able to see further on a FE the higher you are?

You can't have an object hidden by curvature without seeing this curvature it's impossible you should be able to repeat this on a small scale.

That is your baseless claim you are yet to substantiate. Prove it.

But do you know what you have shown quite well?
You can't have the bottom of an object hidden on a flat surface.

I will show you objects disappearing bottom up on a flat surface I just need to get a long enough flat surface.

Then go get one. Until you do, don't try claiming the bottom can be obscured, when there is literally nothing to block the path of the light.

You can't see more of the table when the camera is low the car looks like it is at the ends of the table, of course you can still see the car because it's such a short distance....

I didn't say you can see more.
I said you can see the same.
You can see to the end of the table.
When the camera is low, you can still see table beyond the car.

For example, here is where I think the camera is the lowest:

The black line is where the wheels of the car is. The purple line is the edge of the table (or slightly below).
Notice how the edge of the table is beyond the car?

where have I lied?

In several different ways.
One is by repeating the same lie that you should see obvious curvature for an object to be partially hidden.
Do you think that basketball can no longer obscure an object just because it now "looks flat"?
This is especially dishonest as you claim the same could magically happen on a flat surface. So what should prevent it on a round surface?

Another is where you falsely claim the car appears to be at the end of the table.

But the far more significant one is your repeatedly claim that we can replicate what we see over the ocean with a flat surface.
A key part you are yet to show is the bottom of an object being obscured while the top is clearly visible, such that it appears that the object has sunk into the ocean.
Until you provide such a demonstration every time you repeat that it can be done on a flat surface you are lying.

if its possible then you should be able to show me how this works on a small scale.

We have explained why that is hard.
You are TINY compared to Earth.
Why do you keep ignoring that?

This just further shows your dishonesty as you are trying to pretend Earth is a tiny ball where the curvature would be obvious.

Just because objects get obscured doesn't mean it's a curvature do you believe everything you see with your eyes ? Do you not believe your eyes can be tricked?

No we don't. But you certainly seem to, believing your eyes are perfect and capable of telling if something is flat or curved just by looking at it.

Or is it just easier for you to see something disappear and say it's curvature and leave it at that?

It isn't a matter of it being hard or difficult.
It is a matter of what actually makes sense.
For a flat object, there is nothing to obstruct the view so you should be able to see the bottom.
Yes, eventually it will be too small to resolve, but while you can resolve it, you can see the bottom.
It will not just magically have the bottom obscured.

But for a round object, the object itself physically obstructs the path of light.

Is it too hard to actually think about it and figure out what actually is happening because I know some people don't like to use their brains so they take the most simple answer.

Yes, you do know yourself quite well.
Try using your brain and explaining what is stopping the light on a FE to make the bottom disappear while the top is still visible.
Try using your brain and realising that something taking up less of your vertical FOV doesn't mean you can see less of it.

Try using your brain and realising you are tiny rather than taking the simple answer of Earth is flat as the reason why you cannot see obvious curvature.

long enough distance and they would merge with the ground

Long enough distance and they shrink to an unresolvable point which cannot be distinguished from the ground.
It is not long enough distance and the bottom magically vanishes.

that video with the car shows is on a flat earth you also see further as you go higher

No, it doesn't. That is your false claim you have not substantiated.
They use a featureless table, and quite low resolution, to try to hide the fact that you can still see the end of the table.
With such a featureless table it is unclear just what portion you can see to.
But because the end appears so much shorter, due to perspective making things far away smaller, you falsely conclude you can't see the end.
But if you marked the end such that it is clear where it is, you would then clearly recognise that you can see the end of the table.

Objects do get smaller on earth just like the bottles would I will show you the experiment when I can.

And this just further shows your dishonesty.
This is not the issue we are objecting to.
We are not claiming that objects magically don't get smaller.
So you repeatedly focusing on this rather than the actual issue to pretend there isn't a problem for the FE is extremely dishonest.
You are setting up a strawman to refute rather than dealing with the actual issue.

Once more, the issue is that the bottom of clearly resolvable objects are obscured, as if the object has sunk into the ocean.

For example, the image of toronto's skyline, where it appears the majority of the buildings are underwater, with only the tops of the tallest buildings visible. It was even animated to show a scaled down version of a much closer view to show where the bottom of the objects should be, clearly showing it is BELOW the horizon.
Or the images of the turbine showing how the blades appear to be going into the water, even though they should be quite well above it.

So don't bother wasting everyone's time by showing things getting smaller. All that will show is your dishonesty.

What you need to show is the bottom of an object being hidden by a flat surface where it is physically impossible for the path of the light to be obstructed to hide the bottom; and the object appearing to sink into that flat surface.

I'm quite confident you cannot do that as it is physically impossible.

Quote from: Stash on November 11, 2021, 10:20:31 AM

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 09:46:07 AM

Quote from: Stash on November 11, 2021, 08:29:42 AM

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 05:02:15 PM

of course you don't see the bottles disappearing bottom up because this is such a short distance but look at how the bottles are appearing to go downwards from the cameras perspective, now imagine you have a very long distance and loads of bottles going off in the distance can you not see how eventually the bottles will end up merging with the ground because where else are they going to go? If they keep going down and down then eventually they will merge with the ground but it's all just an illusion raise altitude and you will see they are all still the same height....

Where do you see they are just going "down"? I see them going down AND going up:



Why would only the bottom of the bottles merge with the ground? Perspective just shows them uniformly getting smaller with no bias toward the top or bottom.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 05:02:15 PM

now watch this notice how when the camera is lowered you can't see the ends of the table ? And it looks like the car is at the ends? But when the camera is raised you can see more of the table? This is exactly what we see with the earth out at the horizon it will look like there is no more land to be seen from a certain height or perspective then raise altitude and change your perspective and more land keeps appearing just like on the flat table.  You can also make objects disappear on a flat surface which you could test yourself at home. If you have a short distance you will need to get a camera as close to the surface as possible and use a smaller object the longer distance you have the higher you can raise the camera.

Wow, so the higher up someone goes the further they can see off into the distance? Shocking! What a revelation you have had. I bet this has not occurred to anyone before.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 10, 2021, 05:02:15 PM

So we can observe what we see out on earth and we can replicate it on a flat surface on a small scale but the same can't be said for repeating it on a curved surface 

As far as replicating anything on a small scale, you've already failed at that with the bottle video. The video does not replicate the bottoms disappearing first so I have no idea what you're talking about.

As far as replicating anything with the car and table, you've shown that the higher up one goes, the further they can see? Again, wow! So what?

yes they appear to go up and they also appear to go downwards... long enough distance and they would merge with the ground.

Now you're getting it - Upward AND downward, not just downward like you've been claiming. Over a long distance they would become so uniformly small that you wouldn't be able to see them anymore. However, there's no bias toward a bottom up disappearance. The cap on top would get smaller in the same proportion as the bottom of the bottle. Where you're getting this bottom up disappearance due to perspective thing is not viable and has not been demonstrated. You haven't presented a small scale example showing that, something you keep asking other's for.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 09:46:07 AM

Well people who believe we live on a sphere use being able to see further when going higher proof we live on a sphere what that video with the car shows is on a flat earth you also see further as you go higher,  apparently according to people who believe we live on a sphere we should be able to see forever on a flat earth obviously we can't.

I don't know any globe adherent that says the higher you go, the further you can see, therefore a round earth. Where is that coming from? There's the old flat earth convention that the horizon always rises to eye-level, therefore a flat earth. But that has been endlessly proven to be incorrect. But I know nothing of what you are claiming that globe earth people believe.

Some people might ask why they can't see forever on a flat earth, but those folks don't understand globe or flat earth theory.

Objects do get smaller on earth just like the bottles would I will show you the experiment when I can.

https://www.popsci.com/10-ways-you-can-prove-earth-is-round/ number 5

So yes, of course, the higher up you can see past an obstruction.

We're well aware that due to perspective objects appear smaller the further away from you they are. What you haven't demonstrated is the disappearing from the bottom up.

On the left is what you see from your bottles on a table video. On the right is what we observe in reality:

Quote from: Stash on November 11, 2021, 10:20:31 AM

I don't know any globe adherent that says the higher you go, the further you can see, therefore a round earth. Where is that coming from? There's the old flat earth convention that the horizon always rises to eye-level, therefore a flat earth. But that has been endlessly proven to be incorrect. But I know nothing of what you are claiming that globe earth people believe.

Some people might ask why they can't see forever on a flat earth, but those folks don't understand globe or flat earth theory.

This is strong evidence of a RE, but only when there aren't hills or mountains or the like, such as out at sea.
Standing on the beach at sea level, the horizon is a mere 5 km away.
But get up higher and it can be much futher.
There is no reason for this on a FE, as there is nothing to obstruct the view.
But there is a reason for it on a RE.

The bottom of objects being obscured is just one manifestation of this.
If Earth was flat, you should be able to see the bottom of the object. That means the horizon should be at least that far away.
But because Earth is round, the curve blocks the view and gives a much closer horizon.

Some FEers like appealing to the atmosphere not being clear enough. But this doesn't explain why the horizon is so close when near sea level, nor does it explain why there is often such a clear horizon.

Can you explain why you should be able to see further on a FE the higher you are?

why when the camera is lowered does the car look like its at the ends of the table? How comes when the camera is raised more of the flat table is revealed ? Im not exactly sure what to call it but seeing further on a flat earth happens just like this, seeing further the higher we go doesn't prove we live on a sphere.

why when the camera is lowered does the car look like its at the ends of the table? How comes when the camera is raised more of the flat table is revealed ? Im not exactly sure what to call it but seeing further on a flat earth happens just like this, seeing further the higher we go doesn't prove we live on a sphere.

Posting the same video and repeating the same lie does not help.
The car is not at the end of the table.

The black line is where the car is.
The purple is where the end of the table is.
Notice how the end of the table is beyond the car?

When the camera is raised, more of the table is not revealed. Instead it just takes up a larger portion of your vertical FOV compared to the front of the table.

So what you can call it is a blatant lie to falsely claim a FE can describe what is observed, because you do not like reality, that Earth is curved.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 09:30:05 AM

You can't have an object hidden by curvature without seeing this curvature it's impossible you should be able to repeat this on a small scale.

That is your baseless claim you are yet to substantiate. Prove it.

But do you know what you have shown quite well?
You can't have the bottom of an object hidden on a flat surface.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 09:32:59 AM

I will show you objects disappearing bottom up on a flat surface I just need to get a long enough flat surface.

Then go get one. Until you do, don't try claiming the bottom can be obscured, when there is literally nothing to block the path of the light.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 09:32:59 AM

You can't see more of the table when the camera is low the car looks like it is at the ends of the table, of course you can still see the car because it's such a short distance....

I didn't say you can see more.
I said you can see the same.
You can see to the end of the table.
When the camera is low, you can still see table beyond the car.

For example, here is where I think the camera is the lowest:

The black line is where the wheels of the car is. The purple line is the edge of the table (or slightly below).
Notice how the edge of the table is beyond the car?

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 09:36:32 AM

where have I lied?

In several different ways.
One is by repeating the same lie that you should see obvious curvature for an object to be partially hidden.
Do you think that basketball can no longer obscure an object just because it now "looks flat"?
This is especially dishonest as you claim the same could magically happen on a flat surface. So what should prevent it on a round surface?

Another is where you falsely claim the car appears to be at the end of the table.

But the far more significant one is your repeatedly claim that we can replicate what we see over the ocean with a flat surface.
A key part you are yet to show is the bottom of an object being obscured while the top is clearly visible, such that it appears that the object has sunk into the ocean.
Until you provide such a demonstration every time you repeat that it can be done on a flat surface you are lying.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 09:36:32 AM

if its possible then you should be able to show me how this works on a small scale.

We have explained why that is hard.
You are TINY compared to Earth.
Why do you keep ignoring that?

This just further shows your dishonesty as you are trying to pretend Earth is a tiny ball where the curvature would be obvious.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 09:36:32 AM

Just because objects get obscured doesn't mean it's a curvature do you believe everything you see with your eyes ? Do you not believe your eyes can be tricked?

No we don't. But you certainly seem to, believing your eyes are perfect and capable of telling if something is flat or curved just by looking at it.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 09:36:32 AM

Or is it just easier for you to see something disappear and say it's curvature and leave it at that?

It isn't a matter of it being hard or difficult.
It is a matter of what actually makes sense.
For a flat object, there is nothing to obstruct the view so you should be able to see the bottom.
Yes, eventually it will be too small to resolve, but while you can resolve it, you can see the bottom.
It will not just magically have the bottom obscured.

But for a round object, the object itself physically obstructs the path of light.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 09:36:32 AM

Is it too hard to actually think about it and figure out what actually is happening because I know some people don't like to use their brains so they take the most simple answer.

Yes, you do know yourself quite well.
Try using your brain and explaining what is stopping the light on a FE to make the bottom disappear while the top is still visible.
Try using your brain and realising that something taking up less of your vertical FOV doesn't mean you can see less of it.

Try using your brain and realising you are tiny rather than taking the simple answer of Earth is flat as the reason why you cannot see obvious curvature.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 09:46:07 AM

long enough distance and they would merge with the ground

Long enough distance and they shrink to an unresolvable point which cannot be distinguished from the ground.
It is not long enough distance and the bottom magically vanishes.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 09:46:07 AM

that video with the car shows is on a flat earth you also see further as you go higher

No, it doesn't. That is your false claim you have not substantiated.
They use a featureless table, and quite low resolution, to try to hide the fact that you can still see the end of the table.
With such a featureless table it is unclear just what portion you can see to.
But because the end appears so much shorter, due to perspective making things far away smaller, you falsely conclude you can't see the end.
But if you marked the end such that it is clear where it is, you would then clearly recognise that you can see the end of the table.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 10:33:04 AM

Objects do get smaller on earth just like the bottles would I will show you the experiment when I can.

And this just further shows your dishonesty.
This is not the issue we are objecting to.
We are not claiming that objects magically don't get smaller.
So you repeatedly focusing on this rather than the actual issue to pretend there isn't a problem for the FE is extremely dishonest.
You are setting up a strawman to refute rather than dealing with the actual issue.

Once more, the issue is that the bottom of clearly resolvable objects are obscured, as if the object has sunk into the ocean.

For example, the image of toronto's skyline, where it appears the majority of the buildings are underwater, with only the tops of the tallest buildings visible. It was even animated to show a scaled down version of a much closer view to show where the bottom of the objects should be, clearly showing it is BELOW the horizon.
Or the images of the turbine showing how the blades appear to be going into the water, even though they should be quite well above it.

So don't bother wasting everyone's time by showing things getting smaller. All that will show is your dishonesty.

What you need to show is the bottom of an object being hidden by a flat surface where it is physically impossible for the path of the light to be obstructed to hide the bottom; and the object appearing to sink into that flat surface.

I'm quite confident you cannot do that as it is physically impossible.

But there is lots more table that we can't see beyond the car when the camera is lower you can see the end but you can’t really see the part between the car and the end just wait I'll show you object with the bottom obscured on a flat surface give me some time I'm at home and I only have short distance to use atm .

You are the one who should prove to me that you can hide an object behind curvature without seeing the curvature.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 01:30:15 PM

why when the camera is lowered does the car look like its at the ends of the table? How comes when the camera is raised more of the flat table is revealed ? Im not exactly sure what to call it but seeing further on a flat earth happens just like this, seeing further the higher we go doesn't prove we live on a sphere.

Posting the same video and repeating the same lie does not help.
The car is not at the end of the table.

The black line is where the car is.
The purple is where the end of the table is.
Notice how the end of the table is beyond the car?

When the camera is raised, more of the table is not revealed. Instead it just takes up a larger portion of your vertical FOV compared to the front of the table.

So what you can call it is a blatant lie to falsely claim a FE can describe what is observed, because you do not like reality, that Earth is curved.

In your picture I can't see the part between the car and the end.

But there is lots more table that we can't see beyond the car when the camera is lower

Prove it.
As far as I can tell, the entire table is visible, ALL THE TIME.
Sure, the far end appears smaller due to perspective, and quite blurry due to the low resolution, but it is still visible.
Try it with a higher resolution, and then zoom in on the end, you will easily be able to see it.

You are the one who should prove to me that you can hide an object behind curvature without seeing the curvature.

No, I shouldn't.
You are the one trying to claim Earth is flat because you can't see the curvature. Thus the burden of proof is on you.

I have explained why small scale tests are practically impossible due to the sizes required because of just how tiny you are compared to Earth.
You can't even clearly describe just what you expect to see.

Can you see the curvature in the photo of the basketball?

Just what curvature are you expecting?
What counts as "seeing curvature"?

In your picture I can't see the part between the car and the end.

Then you are either blind or blatantly lying.
Can you see the part between the black and purple line?
Are you trying to say you don't see it above the top of the car?

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 01:35:51 PM

But there is lots more table that we can't see beyond the car when the camera is lower

Prove it.
As far as I can tell, the entire table is visible, ALL THE TIME.
Sure, the far end appears smaller due to perspective, and quite blurry due to the low resolution, but it is still visible.
Try it with a higher resolution, and then zoom in on the end, you will easily be able to see it.

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 01:35:51 PM

You are the one who should prove to me that you can hide an object behind curvature without seeing the curvature.

No, I shouldn't.
You are the one trying to claim Earth is flat because you can't see the curvature. Thus the burden of proof is on you.

I have explained why small scale tests are practically impossible due to the sizes required because of just how tiny you are compared to Earth.
You can't even clearly describe just what you expect to see.

Can you see the curvature in the photo of the basketball?

Just what curvature are you expecting?
What counts as "seeing curvature"?

Quote from: Notasphere on November 11, 2021, 01:37:11 PM

In your picture I can't see the part between the car and the end.

Then you are either blind or blatantly lying.
Can you see the part between the black and purple line?
Are you trying to say you don't see it above the top of the car?

You are either just trolling now or lying the car does appear to look like its at the end of the table anyone can see this yes zooming in will reveal it actually isn't at the end but it still looks like it is and I clearly cannot see the part between the car and the end of the table maybe a tiny bit but there's lots of distance between the two which becomes more visible as the camera is raised.

How do I post pictures and videos from my phone ? Only way I will be able to show you stuff I'm doing.?