Some reasons I believe FET (prev. "check my FET")

There is no credible source but your own eyes. Take this - it's dangerous to go out alone: the flat earth society.

Interesting position from someone who claims that circles are straight and spheres are flat because of Einstein.

There is no credible source but your own eyes.

Then use your own eyes and answer the question I asked that you keep avoiding:

When viewing (using your own eyes) out over open water on a clear, quiet day, how can there be the well-defined horizon you see just a few miles away if the earth were flat?

Do you know the distances involved? how close are they to the described curvature?

I do.  Roughly 30 miles (48.7 KM).  At sea level, the horizon is about 3 miles from wherever you might be standing.  Standing on the beach in Long Beach, CA, you are at sea level, so anything further than 3 miles from the shore and beyond is obscured (depending on the distance from the viewer) by the curvature of the planet.  At 30 miles, Avalon is not visible.  The entire port is obscured.  Catalina Island, however, is totally visible with it being, at its tallest, 2000 ft above sea level.  But because Avalon is also at sea level, you can't see it from Long Beach no matter how high-powered your optics are.  Your line of sight is blocked by the curvature of planet Earth.

For those skeptics wondering, I live in California and have sat on the beach at the locations described and this is what I've seen.  I've also seen the container ships and oil derricks in various states of being obscured by the curvature as well.  It's not controversial. 

Quote from: faded mike on October 07, 2021, 09:08:26 PM

But with something as base as the flat earth which i can see

I want you for just a moment consider what something the size of a microbe if it had eyes would see if on the surface of a marble, or orange or anything that to your human eyes is obviously a sphere

Would that microbe see curves? Could it, standing on the surface with no other visual clues have all the information to judge what shape it's standing on?


Just consider the possibility. You know how tiny you are. You know how large the earth is....

You'd be very short - and the horizon would block out distant views.

Quote from: Shifter on October 07, 2021, 10:38:00 PM

Quote from: faded mike on October 07, 2021, 09:08:26 PM

But with something as base as the flat earth which i can see

I want you for just a moment consider what something the size of a microbe if it had eyes would see if on the surface of a marble, or orange or anything that to your human eyes is obviously a sphere

Would that microbe see curves? Could it, standing on the surface with no other visual clues have all the information to judge what shape it's standing on?


Just consider the possibility. You know how tiny you are. You know how large the earth is....

You'd be very short - and the horizon would block out distant views.

But would you be able to see any curves? Or would everything around you look like a flat surface as far as your eyes could see?

Truthfully, everything would be flat. And us humans on a gigantic Earth is no different. Everything looks flat. What you need (barring any other clues like a sun rising/setting) is a different perspective. (eg rise far above into space and look there)

You already see the curvature of the Earth every day you see the horizon. That's the start of the curve before it starts dropping off

Quote from: faded mike on October 06, 2021, 07:43:27 PM

First thing  - can i ever see earths curvature from the ground and how.

Yes, you can. You can go to the Bedford Canal and watch someone in a kayak paddle away over the horizon. If you cannot make it personally, then you could watch the video of such an event made by the UK Flat Earth Group.

Or, you could watch any boat travel over the horizon on any large body of water that may be convenient to you.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=89043.0



The people who made that video drew a conclusion (flat earth) that was exactly opposite to what their own video showed (earth curvature). It is easy to get around their flawed commentary, though, by using your own brain to analyze what they present.

I think that the reads getting in the way of the further part of the canal, almost like going around a corner - what do you think about that?

Quote from: faded mike on October 06, 2021, 05:12:07 PM

Explain alternative facts.

"alternative facts" are fictions used to replace facts because you don't like what the facts are and would prefer it to be those fictions, either because you directly prefer those fictions, or you can use those fictions to try to get something else that you want.

"alternative science" can follow the same kind of emotional response, where you discard real science and replace it with something else. On the minor end this would be simply starting with a conclusion you want to be true and trying to find excuses for why it could be true; and on the more extreme end, just blatantly lying about what the results of certain experiments are.

Quote from: faded mike on October 06, 2021, 05:43:13 PM

What wrong with conventinal science is that their are a lot of people reporting things that science says can't be true, but if true could be very beneficial and freeing.

See, this is an example.
People don't like reality, so they try providing a fiction which they prefer.

It would be great if we could have a machine magically produce energy from nothing such that everyone could have unlimited free power, but it simply can't happen.

Likewise, it would be great if diseases didn't exist, but they clearly do and are clearly quite damaging (at least some are).

If instead of trying to claim diseases aren't real, or claiming magic cures; people accepted that they were real and attempted to find real cures the world would be better off. Even if those people just didn't try to falsely claim the disease isn't real or try to sell their snake oil, the world would be better off as people would be more inclined to either seek treatment or protect others.

Likewise, it would be great if Earth was flat, such that there was only a single time zone. Gone would be the issues of trying to have a chat or meeting with someone in a different timezone, or even further having to change your sleep schedule to try to match a different timezone. It would also make it much easy to travel without issues caused by timezones.
But something being good doesn't mean it is true. The facts simply do not support it.

Something being beneficial and freeing if true doesn't make it true.
Science doesn't care if something discovered is good or bad, it cares if it is true.

Quote from: faded mike on October 06, 2021, 07:43:27 PM

First thing  - can i ever see earths curvature from the ground and how.

There are several options. Here are some examples.
1 - Watch the sun set, being obscured by Earth - Technically this could work for a FE, if the sun set for everyone, rather than always being above some point on Earth.
2 - Watch a large object set over the horizon.
3 - Go and find a tall mountain and measure the angle of dip to the horizon from various altitudes up the mountain.
4 - Find a series of objects in a straight line at the same elevation and observe how they appear to curve downwards.
5 - Requires travel and is less direct, observe the position of celestial objects and how they vary over time and location.

Just respondong to your response to my question about can i ever see the curvature myself from the ground. This is exactly what prompts me to questin this -

Sunset - like nothing else in this world and perhaps it is not going down around the curve.

Objects setting around horizon - this is the problem i have observed - that they dont go behind the horizon - you can see more of them from far away than you should be able to.

Mountain - can you share your own findings?

Straight line of objects - this isn't a good example I thnk.

Position of celestial objects - this is what I wrote the thing about - I think there is a hemispherical sky image bend but the cause is something completely different.

Sunset - like nothing else in this world and perhaps it is not going down around the curve.

Why is it like nothing else?
Is it purely due to it being very bright and also affecting the sky due to how bright it is?
Most of the effects are quite simple to replicate.

Objects setting around horizon - this is the problem i have observed - that they dont go behind the horizon - you can see more of them from far away than you should be able to.

That is what you keep claiming. But so far, even in cases where you claim missing curvature, the bottom of the object is obscured.
Now which is more likely, pure magic, or a minor effect of refraction combined with you not knowing all the details of height of observer and distance to target?

Mountain - can you share your own findings?

You have shown you are unwilling to accept plenty of evidence provided by plenty of people and organisations that clearly show Earth is round. Why would me sharing my findings change that?
Like I said, you can measure the angle of dip to the horizon.
If Earth was flat, the only horizon that there should be is the very edge of Earth. And that would put it at roughly 0 degrees for the vast majority of people.
But you can observe the horizon clearly below 0 degrees.

Straight line of objects - this isn't a good example I thnk.

Why? Because it shows Earth is round and you really want it to be flat?

Position of celestial objects - this is what I wrote the thing about - I think there is a hemispherical sky image bend but the cause is something completely different.

Yes, you said that, but provided no mechanism for this nor any actual reason to think this.
What is more likely, pure inexplicable magic, or Earth being round?

And this comes back to the current topic of the thread, reasons you believe FET.
Just what reasons are there?
So far the closest you can get is claimed missing curvature, which you claim without all the details, and it still shows the bottom obscured, indicating curvature.

So just why do you believe in FET?
Why do you reject Earth being round when so much evidence supports Earth being round?
Why do you try to come up with excuses for how Earth could possibly be flat with inexplicable magic trying to save it, rather than just honestly examine the evidence and accept what it indicates?

Faded, let me just ask you this. Why do you need mathematics to prove anything?  You can actually use numbers to make anything appear to be true or false if you use them in one way or another.

There is plenty of evidence around which points to the Earth being a globe or sphere which ever you prefer without having to resort to mathematics.

Obviously depending on your point of view you can interpret that evidence however best suits you.

I think you guys are all denying the evidence that the flat earthers are talking about.

Or are you simply denying the evidence that shows the Earth is not flat? 

I don't know about you but I just form conclusions based on my own observations and data.  If they told me the Earth was most likely flat then I would go with that.  But so far they don't.  I am not a denialist. I just go with the evidence.

For instance. As we look into the distance, the contrast and clarity of the landscape gradually falls away doesn't it.  Things look less distinct and more hazy with increasing distance. Then we find a sharply defined line which forms the limit of what we can see. The borderline of where the ground (or sea) meets the sky.  We call it the horizon. On average that line is a few miles away.

If the Earth was flat why would we even see a horizon?  The landscape would just fade into a hazy nothingness. Not a clear and distinct line. 

Quote from: Themightykabool on October 07, 2021, 08:59:06 AM

maybe faded can stop with the pleading and answer simple questions

when the cars go over the peak of the bridge, does the viewer at ground level see a distinct edge?
are the cars disappearing bottom-top or top-bottom or just getting smaller?
why are the cars disappearing?
can you see the curvature of the bridge from this angle?

pause at 1:04 and once again pause at 1:13

Lets have faded take a swing?

No math involved.
It does or it doesnt

Quote from: Thunderwolf on October 06, 2021, 08:05:36 PM

Quote from: faded mike on October 06, 2021, 07:43:27 PM

First thing  - can i ever see earths curvature from the ground and how.

Yes, you can. You can go to the Bedford Canal and watch someone in a kayak paddle away over the horizon. If you cannot make it personally, then you could watch the video of such an event made by the UK Flat Earth Group.

Or, you could watch any boat travel over the horizon on any large body of water that may be convenient to you.
...

I think that the reads getting in the way of the further part of the canal, almost like going around a corner - what do you think about that?

If reeds were blocking our view, then what we would have seen was ... ... the reeds blocking our view!

How can reeds block our view of something, yet not themselves be visible? It makes no sense.

I think you guys are all denying the evidence that the flat earthers are talking about.

Interesting accusation there when you asked for a disucssion yet refused to discuss and when others present counter arguments you refused to refute.

Sounds like someones in denial.
Guess who?

The thing is he picked the worst possible example of a flat earth “experiment” pretty much ever? Reeds? Their batteries dying? Referencing Jareds 8” explanation which is a hot mess. The whole thing is a debacle and makes FE look terrible.

faded mike is the classic example of confirmation bias. You can throw indisputable facts at him all day long, most of which he can verify with his own eyes right now and it wont compute. But if some random goes 'yeah man it looks flat out my window', then that's all the information he needs to settle his question

Dont bother

He's either a troll or lost to the shrooms

Let's keep our attacks directed at ideas and arguments, not at people.

I think you guys are all denying the evidence that the flat earthers are talking about.

No, we aren't. Instead we point out simple issues with it, such as the height being unknown and refraction playing a role.
Or we just point out how it has been falsely interpreted to pretend there is a problem for the RE.

Conversely, the FEers rely upon denying massive amounts of evidence and claim a global conspiracy to fabricate such evidence.

When presented with things which quite clearly show Earth is round, you dismiss it, however you can.
For example, rather than accept Earth is round and that is what causes the apparent position of celestial objects, you dismiss it and instead claim things like "personal skies" with no explanation of just how these would work.

For things like the Lake pontachrain powerlines which show the curve, you just dismiss it as "this isn't a good example I thnk."

So really, which side is denying the evidence?

For me, flat Earthers are just a bunch of losers in life who just want to find something to give themselves a sense of value and purpose in their otherwise totally unremarkable lives. So they thought how clever and important it would make them seem to be they were to take science by the scruff of the neck and declare everything it says about the world, including it being round and claim it to be some kind of massive fake or lie.

Well good luck with that because if you are going to succeed with that you had better come up with something a damn sight more convincing that any of you have so far.  And the likes of some I could mention who think that the Earth is some kind of cell are not exactly proving to be the best ambassadors for your cause.

Carefil there.

There are also "losers"who feel picking super easy fights with anonymous strangers on the internet....

If reeds were blocking our view, then what we would have seen was ... ... the reeds blocking our view!

How can reeds block our view of something, yet not themselves be visible? It makes no sense.

Invisible reeds that you can't see through are actually pretty common.

They've evolved to use the Bendy Light phenomenon, so as to avoid predation.   An in-depth study might yield interesting results for flat earth scientists such as John Davis.  It's just a shame we can't see them....

See thread in flat earth general titled "those search engines" for visual evidence with a video titled "Flat Earth 31.63 Miles...Undeniable Proof"

More video evidence



Haven't double checked this fellows numbers myself and I am not actually sure what this is showing but he says it is too flat If I understand correctly.

Faded, let me just ask you this. Why do you need mathematics to prove anything?  You can actually use numbers to make anything appear to be true or false if you use them in one way or another.

There is plenty of evidence around which points to the Earth being a globe or sphere which ever you prefer without having to resort to mathematics.

Obviously depending on your point of view you can interpret that evidence however best suits you.

I dont need math to prove everything - I think you could never do the measurements to get the numbers to crunch to match anywhere near what your brain can do.
...

Search globe earth math proof and find all the quality (at first glance) flat earth vids you couldnt find straight up, and mysteriously absent globe earth math proof vids - on duck duck go videos anyway.

For things like the Lake pontachrain powerlines which show the curve, you just dismiss it as "this isn't a good example I thnk."

So really, which side is denying the evidence?

That would be you. You're the one denying the evidence. The same person who took that picture also provided other time-lapse media from the area showing that the observations are not consistent:



You know this, and you have seen this, yet continue to shout "muh soundly prooof".

... The same person who took that picture also provided other time-lapse media from the area showing that the observations are not consistent:

(Correct me if I am wrong, but ...) the argument here seems to be: "If, because of refraction, we do not have a consistent view always, then we can dismiss all [alleged] evidence of curvature as invalid."  But, why?

Why can't both explanations be correct at the same time?
— There is curvature of the Earth; and
— Atmospheric refraction is sometimes a factor when we view it.

The curvature is always there — our view of it depends on the local atmospheric conditions at the moment of viewing. With variable weather, of course we experience inconsistent views — that's how refraction works — that's how nature works. Compressed-time photography makes the inevitable optical variation more noticeable. Big deal.

That would be you. You're the one denying the evidence.

No, that would be you, where you are quite happy to cherry pick and blatantly misquote things to pretend they support you.

What I provided is merely 1 example of such evidence.
And you try to object, with a video which intentionally misrepresents a video by soundly.
It is known that close to water refraction can be a significant issue.
Your dishonest portrayal of refraction, over a relatively short distance, quite close to water, is quite incomparable to the example I suggested, which shows far more significant curvature and is much higher above the water, and thus less effected by refraction.

Additionally, this is entirely consistent with RE and refraction, which typically bends light downwards making distant objects appear higher than they are.
It only bends light upwards in rare circumstances which is often associated with significant distortion.
So it makes perfect sense with a RE causing things to appear lower and varying levels of refraction causing it to appear higher to varying extents, some times countering the curvature quite well.

What doesn't make sense is repeated consistent refraction having light bend upwards to make things appear to be hidden by the curve, and make the horizon appear lower than what it actually is.

Not to mention you and other FEers being quite happy to entirely ignore refraction and claim that curvature is missing.

More video evidence



Haven't double checked this fellows numbers myself and I am not actually sure what this is showing but he says it is too flat If I understand correctly.

Mike, firstly, is the content of this video one of the reasons you believe in flat earth theory? Secondly, if so, do you believe everything in the video like it's gospel, or are there some things you believe more than others? Thirdly, is there anything in this video you don't believe at all?

A glaring problem for it being a flerfer video is the camera lens is not on the surface of the earth, and proved horizontal. He looks to be at quite an elevation either in a high rise building, or standing on a mountain, and everybody knows, the higher you go, the further you can see.

Quote from: John Davis on October 09, 2021, 10:23:43 PM

There is no credible source but your own eyes. Take this - it's dangerous to go out alone: the flat earth society.

Interesting position from someone who claims that circles are straight and spheres are flat because of Einstein.

It's almost like you don't understand math.

I'm trying to find a point to defend beyond a circular argument. Do you have one?