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Air on a Flat Earth

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JackBlack

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2021, 01:55:17 AM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on September 19, 2021, 11:15:56 PM
Gases are contained by their own stacked mass, in atmosphere.
Yes, gravity explains the vertical containment. The issue is the sideways containment. Specifically for FE models without a dome.
Without such containment, the air would just spill over the side of the Earth.

Note that the OP stated he is not focusing on models with a dome, as they have plenty of other problems, like how the dome could support itself rather than fall to Earth.
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Solarwind

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2021, 02:30:35 AM »
Quote
everyone knows that we don't lose our atmosphere and from that easily deduce the gas is contained.
Actually Earth is gradually losing its atmosphere all the time. It is just happening very, very slowly. Compared to a human lifetime at least.

Equally though gases which exist naturally in the atmosphere are being regenerated through a number of different natural (as well as manmade) processes at surface level and these gases are then rising up to replace what is lost into space. The balance of the atmospheric gases present in the atmosphere naturally varies over time though and at present more CO2 for example is being added into the atmosphere than is leaking away into space or being absorbed my trees at ground level. That is at the root cause of global warming and climate change. Obviously you wouldn't call it 'global' warming as you don't accept the Earth is a globe but that's a matter for you. I'm just telling you the facts which science has established.

There simply is nothing to 'contain' any part of the atmosphere from leaking off into space. That is why Mars lost the majority of its atmosphere so much quicker than Earth did. Because it is smaller than Earth the effect of gravity to keep the martian atmosphere from leaking off into space has always been much less.  There is some left still but it is mostly heavier elements. Which is why the martian atmosphere is mostly CO2.

If you want to pretend or prefer to think of the Earth as having some sort of 'container' (for which there is no evidence to support its existence) surrounding it to keep the atmosphere 'in' then that's up to you.

Think of it in these terms. We live mainly at sea level. Let's call it around midway between the bottom of atmosphere and the bottom of the oceans. Where is atmospheric pressure greatest?  At sea level.  Where is the water pressure greatest in the oceans? At the bottom or ocean bed.  Water is much denser than air which is why people are consciously aware of increasing pressure underwater when they dive but we are not directly conscious of the air pressure pushing down on us at the Earth surface. So we need to artificially lessen the underwater pressure as we go down and why we need to artificially increase the air pressure in aircraft cabins when when we fly. At least above 10,000ft or so.

The common element here is that the pressure gradient is such that it is always increasing with decreasing distance from the Earth centre. Which coincidentally also happens to be the centre of gravity. No matter where we are on Earth this is always the same. The smallest and most efficient volume for the largest surface area results in a sphere. A finite but unbounded surface. And all of this seems to fit in nicely with our real world experience.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2021, 04:38:52 AM by Solarwind »
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sceptimatic

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2021, 04:06:23 AM »
Quote from: JackBlack on September 20, 2021, 01:55:17 AM
Quote from: sceptimatic on September 19, 2021, 11:15:56 PM
Gases are contained by their own stacked mass, in atmosphere.
Yes, gravity explains the vertical containment. The issue is the sideways containment. Specifically for FE models without a dome.
Without such containment, the air would just spill over the side of the Earth.

Note that the OP stated he is not focusing on models with a dome.
You are quite right and I should've took notice.
I'll deck out of this topic.

My apologies to the OP.
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Solarwind

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2021, 04:52:12 AM »
How come you are 'decking out' then Scepti?  I thought you had an answer for everything.. right?!?
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boydster

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2021, 05:37:01 AM »
Quote from: Solarwind on September 20, 2021, 04:52:12 AM
How come you are 'decking out' then Scepti?  I thought you had an answer for everything.. right?!?
He's been pretty consistently saying his model has a dome for as long as I can remember. Why should he argue otherwise?
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Solarwind

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2021, 05:40:07 AM »
A dome for which neither he nor anyone else seems to be able to provide any evidence that it actually exists either.
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Themightykabool

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2021, 06:05:09 AM »
But its nice hes not hijacking the thread.
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hi529

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2021, 09:15:05 AM »
Quote from: sceptimatic on September 20, 2021, 04:06:23 AM
Quote from: JackBlack on September 20, 2021, 01:55:17 AM
Quote from: sceptimatic on September 19, 2021, 11:15:56 PM
Gases are contained by their own stacked mass, in atmosphere.
Yes, gravity explains the vertical containment. The issue is the sideways containment. Specifically for FE models without a dome.
Without such containment, the air would just spill over the side of the Earth.

Note that the OP stated he is not focusing on models with a dome.
You are quite right and I should've took notice.
I'll deck out of this topic.

My apologies to the OP.

Haven't had much time to monitor this thread constantly but I will come in to say I at least appreciate this. I have my own issues with dome models but that's for another thread, so thank you.
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boydster

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #38 on: September 20, 2021, 09:58:52 AM »
Quote from: Solarwind on September 20, 2021, 05:40:07 AM
A dome for which neither he nor anyone else seems to be able to provide any evidence that it actually exists either.
That's completely irrelevant.
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Solarwind

  • 1839
Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #39 on: September 20, 2021, 01:00:10 PM »
Ok so setting aside those so-called 'dome' models, what is you explanation for air retention if you assume a flat surface for the Earth?
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Username

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #40 on: September 20, 2021, 04:48:14 PM »
Quote from: Solarwind on September 20, 2021, 01:00:10 PM
Ok so setting aside those so-called 'dome' models, what is you explanation for air retention if you assume a flat surface for the Earth?
An infinite plane would hold it due to gravitation, and an infinite plane would have a finite amount of gravitational pull on any object.
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Solarwind

  • 1839
Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #41 on: September 20, 2021, 05:12:47 PM »
How do you work that one out John given that you have already claimed that gravity is a fictional force.

Where is the gravity coming from in an infinite plane? Especially if the infinite plane only had a finite gravitational pull.

Explain.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2021, 05:26:23 PM by Solarwind »
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boydster

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #42 on: September 20, 2021, 06:30:15 PM »
This has been explained before, although it's been a while since the last time it came up. An infinite plane with a finite thickness would have a finite and (this part's important) uniform gravitational force. It's a little above my pay grade, but there is plenty of reading material on it. Here's a wiki to get started: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauss%27s_law_for_gravity

Edit to add: Specifically, check out the info regarding a Bouguer Plate.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2021, 06:49:01 PM by boydster »
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Stash

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #43 on: September 20, 2021, 08:49:22 PM »
Perhaps in short:

- A flat earth that is an infinite plane would allow for gravity to hold air to the earth. Not mention being infinite and all there ain't no sides for air to spill over and drain off
- A flat earth that is a finite plane without a dome, there is no known thing that would prevent air from spilling off the sides.
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hi529

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2021, 06:15:23 AM »
A perfectly uniform infinite plane would have a perfectly uniform gravitational pull, but any irregularity would unbalance it, and the Earth definitely has irregularities. These would, over time, cause disturbances in the uniform gravity that would inevitably collapse it.
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Themightykabool

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2021, 06:56:56 AM »
there would be no irregularities.
it would be completely uniform.

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Username

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2021, 07:28:26 AM »
Quote from: hi529 on September 21, 2021, 06:15:23 AM
A perfectly uniform infinite plane would have a perfectly uniform gravitational pull, but any irregularity would unbalance it, and the Earth definitely has irregularities. These would, over time, cause disturbances in the uniform gravity that would inevitably collapse it.
Show your work.
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boydster

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2021, 07:50:52 AM »
Quote from: hi529 on September 21, 2021, 06:15:23 AM
A perfectly uniform infinite plane would have a perfectly uniform gravitational pull, but any irregularity would unbalance it, and the Earth definitely has irregularities. These would, over time, cause disturbances in the uniform gravity that would inevitably collapse it.
I think that depends on the degree and distribution of irregularities.
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Unconvinced

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2021, 08:44:12 AM »
Has anyone ever worked out how thick and dense a uniform infinite plane would need to be to give a field of about 1g?
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boydster

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2021, 08:47:17 AM »
Quote from: Unconvinced on September 21, 2021, 08:44:12 AM
Has anyone ever worked out how thick and dense a uniform infinite plane would need to be to give a field of about 1g?

https://theflatearthsociety.org/home/index.php/blog/infinite-flat-earth-mathematics
Quote
Given it also has depth we are looking at the case of m = (density * Area * depth). This gives us instead g = 2πG p d, where d is depth.

g = 9.81 m/s/s
G = 6.754×10−11 m3 kg−1 s−2
p = 5.51 g/cm³ , the average density of earth

Giving us d = g / (2πG p). This evaluates to around 4195.43 kilometers deep, thus showing false my early hypothesis of 9000 km deep.
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Unconvinced

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2021, 09:24:14 AM »
Quote from: boydster on September 21, 2021, 08:47:17 AM
Quote from: Unconvinced on September 21, 2021, 08:44:12 AM
Has anyone ever worked out how thick and dense a uniform infinite plane would need to be to give a field of about 1g?

https://theflatearthsociety.org/home/index.php/blog/infinite-flat-earth-mathematics
Quote
Given it also has depth we are looking at the case of m = (density * Area * depth). This gives us instead g = 2πG p d, where d is depth.

g = 9.81 m/s/s
G = 6.754×10−11 m3 kg−1 s−2
p = 5.51 g/cm³ , the average density of earth

Giving us d = g / (2πG p). This evaluates to around 4195.43 kilometers deep, thus showing false my early hypothesis of 9000 km deep.

p for density?  What is this BS?!

Just kidding.  Cheers.  I might check through later, but it looks fairly sensible at a quick glance.  (The maths that is).
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Stash

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2021, 09:37:17 AM »
Quote from: hi529 on September 21, 2021, 06:15:23 AM
A perfectly uniform infinite plane would have a perfectly uniform gravitational pull, but any irregularity would unbalance it, and the Earth definitely has irregularities. These would, over time, cause disturbances in the uniform gravity that would inevitably collapse it.

Why would irregularities cause a collapse? And a collapse of what exactly?
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JackBlack

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2021, 02:14:10 PM »
Quote from: hi529 on September 21, 2021, 06:15:23 AM
A perfectly uniform infinite plane would have a perfectly uniform gravitational pull, but any irregularity would unbalance it, and the Earth definitely has irregularities. These would, over time, cause disturbances in the uniform gravity that would inevitably collapse it.
It would require the irregularities to be large enough to overcome the yeild strength of the material.
The same kind of reasoning you used would indicate Earth should be a perfect oblate spheroid, without any mountains or hills.

Quote from: Stash on September 21, 2021, 09:37:17 AM
Why would irregularities cause a collapse? And a collapse of what exactly?
Lets say you have an irregularity where a region of this infinite plane has a greater mass (either due to a greater density or due to it sticking out from the plane).
This can be treated as the regular infinite plane, and an additional mass.

This additional mass causes gravitational attraction towards it, for all the other mass, which in turn creates a lateral pressure gradient, with the pressure being greatest at this location.

If the additional mass is large enough such that the pressure at the centre of this mass is greater than the yield strength of the material, it will cause it to push material upwards and downwards (above and below the plane).

This in turn allows more material from the sides to move inwards towards this irregularity, making it larger, causing more to move.

This would cause the infinite plane to collapse into a black hole of infinite mass.

The other kind of irregularity would be an absence of mass, which would cause a hole to form in the plane and spread out, but I think that eventually that would result in it also collapsing into a black hole.

If instead these irregularities were spread out fairly regularly over the infinite plane, it would cause the infinite plane to collapse into an infinite number of finite spheres.
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hi529

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2021, 09:19:42 AM »
Quote from: Stash on September 21, 2021, 09:37:17 AM
Quote from: hi529 on September 21, 2021, 06:15:23 AM
A perfectly uniform infinite plane would have a perfectly uniform gravitational pull, but any irregularity would unbalance it, and the Earth definitely has irregularities. These would, over time, cause disturbances in the uniform gravity that would inevitably collapse it.

Why would irregularities cause a collapse? And a collapse of what exactly?

A uniform plane has a stable, uniform gravity because the force of gravity in all directions is exactly equal. Even the slightest difference will destroy that stability.

Adding mass to a part of the plane, for instance, would give that area a slightly stronger gravitational pull. This would create a net gravitational acceleration towards it, causing more mass to pile up, accelerating the process until you have an eternally-growing black hole.
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Stash

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2021, 01:51:05 PM »
Thanks for the 'splainer from Hi and JB. That all makes sense even though it's extremely dark and would mean the end of everything as we know it.

I wonder what sort of timeframe we're looking at? As in, how long would it take for a build up of mass irregularities on an infinite flat plane before collapsing into a black hole or spitting off mini-spheres? Do we have any theoretical data/notions on black hole ages and how long before they became black holes?
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boydster

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2021, 02:01:08 PM »
A better question, I think, is: Would any land/sea features or events be enough of an irregularity to actually overcome the yield strength of the 4200km-thick plate of the infinite Earth?
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JackBlack

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #56 on: September 22, 2021, 03:03:31 PM »
Quote from: hi529 on September 22, 2021, 09:19:42 AM
A uniform plane has a stable, uniform gravity because the force of gravity in all directions is exactly equal. Even the slightest difference will destroy that stability.
That would be like saying that a uniform sphere has a stable, uniform gravity because the force of gravity in all directions is exactly equal, and the surface is at the same gravitational potential. Even the slightest difference will destroy that stability.

Adding mass to a part of the sphere, for instance, would give that area a slightly stronger gravitational pull, and increase the pressure below. This would cause the mass to fall into the sphere, and push the rest of the sphere outwards.

Unfortunately, this only works when the material has no compressive strength, and is why it doesn't happen for all objects and is why Earth can still have mountains.

Any irregularity is not enough.
You need a large enough irregularity that it will exceed the yield strength of the material the object is made from, to allow it to deform.

This is why objects need to be large enough before gravity will force them into a roughly spherical shape, and why even then, they are still not perfect spheres.

Quote from: Stash on September 22, 2021, 01:51:05 PM
Thanks for the 'splainer from Hi and JB. That all makes sense even though it's extremely dark and would mean the end of everything as we know it.

I wonder what sort of timeframe we're looking at? As in, how long would it take for a build up of mass irregularities on an infinite flat plane before collapsing into a black hole or spitting off mini-spheres? Do we have any theoretical data/notions on black hole ages and how long before they became black holes?
It would take an infinite time for the infinite mass on the infinite plane to collapse into an infinite black hole, with how big of an infinity depending on the size of the irregularity.

As for known black holes, some formed quite early on in the universe (some suggest less than a second after the big bang), when it was much denser. These are known as primordial black holes.
But other black holes show a significant limitation, before forming the black holes, you will get it dense enough to start nuclear fusion which will add additional pressure to hold it apart, making it take a bit longer.

So maybe infinity plus 1 time units?
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Themightykabool

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2021, 04:21:39 PM »
Wouldnt a blip of mass just be cancelled by infinity?
Why would the plane collapse into a singularity?
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JackBlack

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #58 on: September 23, 2021, 05:35:34 AM »
Quote from: Themightykabool on September 22, 2021, 04:21:39 PM
Wouldnt a blip of mass just be cancelled by infinity?
Why would the plane collapse into a singularity?
Infinity can be weird. It is one of those infinity-infinity situations.

My understanding is that the gravitational field of any object, can be considered as the sum of the gravitational fields of parts of the object.
This should mean that you could consider an irregular plane with a bit of extra mass as the sum of a perfectly homogenous infinite plane, a bit of extra mass.
A perfectly homogenous infinite plane has a gravitational field that is purely vertical.
This means it will not give rise to any horizontal gravitational field.
This means the horizontal gravitational field should come entirely from that extra mass.
If we then consider the pressure caused by that, in the simplest way possible, that of integrating rho*g*dr, from r=R, the edge of that extra mass, to r=infinity, the infinite distance of the plane, we end up with:
g=GM/r^2
P=int(rho*(G*M/r^2)*dr, from R to inf)=(-rho*G*M/r, from r=R to inf) = rho*G*M/R

So if this irregularity has a large enough mass, then the pressure will exceed the yield strength of the plane.
This high pressure will cause the mass in the plane to push outwards in all directions. But as there isn't all that mass above and below, it will push out there.
This results in mass flow which increases the mass at the anomaly, and causes the pressure to increase more.
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Themightykabool

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #59 on: September 23, 2021, 06:27:11 AM »
But look at earths profile.
Mountains hills valleys oceans.
At a small scale its massively irregular.
Stretched out infinitely these blips become infinityl meaningless?

Ah well ok.
Math is beyond me
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