Air on a Flat Earth

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Air on a Flat Earth
« on: September 14, 2021, 10:29:16 AM »
Note up front- this is not directed at any FE theories involving some sort of dome. Those have their own problems (for example, the lack of any actual evidence for the existence of such a dome) but they aren't the focus here.

How does air stay on a flat Earth?

This is sort of like the classic "why haven't we fallen off the edge" thing, but there's a catch. Even if humans are prevented from reaching the edge, the air would have no such restriction. On a flat Earth accelerating through space, for example, what's stopping the air from flowing over the edge and out into the abyss as the Earth accelerates past it?

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2021, 10:21:56 PM »
There is no edge.

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NotSoSkeptical

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2021, 06:20:23 AM »
How do you think the turtles on the bottom breathe?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 08:52:05 AM by NotSoSkeptical »
Rabinoz RIP

That would put you in the same category as pedophile perverts like John Davis, NSS, robots like Stash, Shifter, and victimized kids like Alexey.

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Username

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2021, 07:10:21 AM »
Some reasons I've seen:

It's kept in by the dome.
It's kept in by the icewall.
It's kept in because the earth is an infinite plane.
It's kept in by gravity and/or gravitation.
"You are a very reasonable man John." - D1

"The lunatic, the lover, and the poet. Are of imagination all compact" - The Bard

Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2021, 09:25:38 AM »
maybe we can rule some of these out by logical deduction?

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Bullwinkle

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2021, 04:21:57 PM »
How do you think the turtles on the bottom breathe?

They're amphibians, they don't need to breath.

Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2021, 02:08:20 AM »
How does air stay on a flat Earth?

Air has weight.  It stacks on top of itself just like the oceans (and any fluid).  It has no reason to go anywhere.  There is no "infinite sky vacuum" above our heads (without a barrier anyhow) because it would induce the gas to expand into its volume and kill us all.

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On a flat Earth accelerating through space

That's fan fiction, and the core of your misunderstanding. There is no flat earth accelerating through "space".  There are some that conceptualize a flat earth accelerating upwards - but they aren't traveling through "space" - all of "space" (as in the celestial lights) is traveling with us!
« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 02:10:39 AM by jack44556677 »

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JackBlack

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2021, 04:27:38 AM »
Air has weight.  It stacks on top of itself just like the oceans (and any fluid).  It has no reason to go anywhere.
Solids stack, liquids find their level. That means they try to spread out on a flat surface, such that a level line through it as at the same pressure unless there is something to contain them.
That is why above ground swimming pools have sides, to contain the water.
So do you have an infinite Earth to stop it falling off the edge?

There is no "infinite sky vacuum" above our heads (without a barrier anyhow) because it would induce the gas to expand into its volume and kill us all.
No, it wouldn't.
As you have already pointed out, air has weight. That means it will fall back down to Earth.
Just like all fluids, the weight of the fluid above causes the pressure to increase.
So no, an infinite sky vacuum above our heads will not cause the gas to just magically defy gravity and expand into its volume and kill us.

That's fan fiction, and the core of your misunderstanding. There is no flat earth accelerating through "space".  There are some that conceptualize a flat earth accelerating upwards - but they aren't traveling through "space" - all of "space" (as in the celestial lights) is traveling with us!
Those that conceptualise Earth accelerating upwards do so to substitute for gravity.
If all of space accelerated upwards, it would not work for that.
People then come up with that as a cop out for why the planets and stars and the like don't fall and crash into Earth.

But it doesn't really matter what causes things to fall. What you have stated above is the issue.
What is around the FE to stop the air spilling off the edge? Or is your Earth infinite?

Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2021, 08:25:49 AM »
How do you think the turtles on the bottom breathe?

They're amphibians, they don't need to breath.
errm...
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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2021, 08:12:27 AM »
How does air stay on a flat Earth?

Air has weight.  It stacks on top of itself just like the oceans (and any fluid).  It has no reason to go anywhere.  There is no "infinite sky vacuum" above our heads (without a barrier anyhow) because it would induce the gas to expand into its volume and kill us all.

Air has no reason to go anywhere because of its weight, or it should expand into any available space?

One or the other, surely?

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On a flat Earth accelerating through space

That's fan fiction, and the core of your misunderstanding. There is no flat earth accelerating through "space". 

Correct.

Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2021, 02:57:17 PM »
Solids stack, liquids find their level.

Pascal's law applies in uniform solids and fluids for the same reason - stacking.

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No, it wouldn't.

Wrong. Do some scale testing.

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So no, an infinite sky vacuum above our heads will not cause the gas to just magically defy gravity

There is no gravitation, and even if there were - it demonstrably doesn't apply here. Do some scale testing, or remain misinformed.  Remember, "gravitation" is believed (never measured, it isn't measurable or real) strongest here on the surface of the earth where we do all science and established all the laws of gas behavior.

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Those that conceptualise Earth accelerating upwards do so to substitute for gravity.

Sort of. It's really just a straight convention/sign flip. It is for the purposes of mockery.

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People then come up with that as a cop out for why the planets and stars and the like don't fall and crash into Earth.

Because the lights in the sky aren't what you believe, and have been told, they are.  In any case, I agree - the earth is not infinitely accelerating upwards anymore than objects at rest are infinitely accelerating downwards - that's STUPID. What would power this limitless and scientific law defying acceleration? The whole thing is really dumb.

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What is around the FE to stop the air spilling off the edge? Or is your Earth infinite?

It is contained one way or another, we ALL know this from deduction and established scientific law - there are no other options even in potentia.  Gravitation (if it were in any way real) isn't powerful enough to do the job you need it to for your worldview - this is plain fact and easy to demonstrate for yourself.  Gas pressure is derived from the container walls - there can be no pressure without them (though the container can in theory, be "fields" of some sort)

The OP didn't want to discuss the inescapable necessity of a container, so I left it out.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2021, 03:04:25 PM by jack44556677 »

Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2021, 03:00:05 PM »

One or the other, surely?


You'd think so! But you'd be wrong.

Gas behavior is well established as scientific law.  It exhibits different behavior than most other states.

One of those is to always expand as homogenous as possible into an available volume. Nature abhors a vacuum.

Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2021, 03:17:53 PM »
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Because the lights in the sky aren't what you believe, and have been told, they are.
Lights in the sky can cover a lot of different things. Which ones are you talking about and what have we been led to 'believe'? I have to say that my own studies of the stars through my own telescopes and spectroscopes seems to match pretty closely to what I have read so why should I be drawn to think they are any different? Could you identify the differences in the spectra between say an A type star (we use the strong Balmer lines in A type stars to calibrate spectroscopes) with an O type or an M type for instance?

What efforts have you gone to in order to collect your own data on starlight to make you believe differently?

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It is contained one way or another, we ALL know this from deduction and established scientific law
Wow Jack.. one way or another eh.. that is pretty precise isn't it..  How do we all know from deduction and which established scientific law tells us the Earth is flat?

@John Davis
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I've discussed it with physics professors and they agree my interpretation is correct.

Have you also discussed all the below comments about air on a flat Earth with your physics professors as well John?

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Some reasons I've seen:

It's kept in by the dome.
It's kept in by the icewall.
It's kept in because the earth is an infinite plane.

If so I'd find some different professors if I were you.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2021, 03:34:56 PM by Solarwind »

Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2021, 03:41:59 PM »
Wow Jack.. one way or another eh.. that is pretty precise isn't it..

It sounds like you don't understand what I said. Let me try to rephrase for you; everyone knows that we don't lose our atmosphere and from that easily deduce the gas is contained.  This is regardless of conceptions on the shape of the world.  Hopefully you will understand this more clearly.

Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2021, 03:58:19 PM »
The bit I don't understand Jack is how flat Earth believers try to re-invent physics just to try and make their beliefs work. Yes I know that we don't lose our atmosphere and the reasons for that are quite simple and obvious to understand if you accept the model of a spherical Earth. Our atmosphere will be a lot thinner in the future as it is around Mars today.  Mars today is effectively a view of what the Earth will like long into the future.

I believe I understand that very clearly indeed.

Now what about those lights in the sky you think we have been misled about? My own observations tell me that the stars at least are exactly what we have been led to believe they are.

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JackBlack

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2021, 04:18:52 PM »
Pascal's law applies in uniform solids and fluids for the same reason - stacking.
And there you go missing the point.
With solids, you can stack them.
You can take one solid object and place it on the ground, and then take another solid object and place it on top.
This doesn't result in the solid object spreading out, not until you exceed the yield strength.

This is not the case with fluids.
Instead, fluids spread out.

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No, it wouldn't.
Wrong. Do some scale testing.
Yes, you are wrong. You should do scale testing.
See if the pressure spreads out uniformly, or if there is a pressure gradient.

For example, take a tube full of mercury and invert it, placing the open end into a dish full of mercury, and observe that there is a vacuum above the mercury, it doesn't just suck it all up.
There is a pressure gradient established.

And this pressure gradient depends upon height, gravity and density. Specifically, the pressure gradient is equal to the integral of g*rho*dh.

So if you want a scale test of air, at atmospheric pressure, with a vacuum above, with no solid separator, then you need to make sure it is a valid scale test.
The air pressure we experience, is due to the weight of the atmosphere above us.
If you try a smaller test, there is going to be a lot less atmosphere above inside your test, and thus the pressure would be expected to be much much lower.
The density of air around sea level is roughly 1.2 kg/m^3. Treating that as a constant, if your scale test was 1 m high, the pressure gradient you would expect to observe would be a mere 12 Pa, or roughly a 10000th of an atmosphere.
If instead you lower the pressure inside your test to be at 1 mbar, a reasonable vacuum, you end up with a pressure gradient of roughly 12 mPa.
It will be quite difficult to measure. Do you have such an accurate test?

That means to account for the reduction of height, you need to accept that there will be a significant reduction in the pressure, or you need to compensate by having a much greater density or by having a much greater gravitational field.

The kind of test you are implicitly appealing to, in no way shows that mainstream physics is wrong. All it shows is that you are intentionally being dishonest by misapplying physics to pretend there is a problem for the RE.

And again, there really is no need for a scale test.
We have observations of the air pressure. The air pressure is lower the higher you are.
If your blatant lies were true, this would not be the case.
After all, all a vacuum is is a lower pressure.
So this low pressure air above the high pressure air at sea level is a vacuum. Yet notice how it doesn't just magically pull all the air up to equalise the pressure?

You can even appeal to a pathetic, dishonest scale test, where you start with 2 chambers, the lower chamber with air at atmospheric pressure, and the upper chamber with air at the pressure at the cruising altitude of planes. Then open the valve, and observe how the pressure appears to equalise, because of the negligible height difference.

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There is no gravitation
Who said anything about a graviton.
Yet again, you completley miss the point.
It doesn't matter if you accept gravity in the conventional sense or want to coat it in layers of BS.
The same fact applies, air has weight, as you have already admitted.
That means whatever is causing things to fall would apply to air as well.

This means air can't magically fly off into space.

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Those that conceptualise Earth accelerating upwards do so to substitute for gravity.
Sort of. It's really just a straight convention/sign flip. It is for the purposes of mockery.
No, it  isn't for the purpose of mockery. It is try to come up with an excuse for why things fall which gravity explains so well.

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It is contained one way or another, we ALL know this from deduction and established scientific law
We know that it is contained by gravity, with it surrounding a round Earth.
The question is how it would be prevented from spilling over the edge of the FE.

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Gravitation (if it were in any way real) isn't powerful enough to do the job you need it to for your worldview - this is plain fact and easy to demonstrate for yourself.
No, it is a blatant lie, made by people like you to pretend there is a problem.
If your blatant lie was true, there would be no vertical pressure gradient in the atmosphere.
The pressure at the top of Mt Everest, or where planes fly and so on, would be the same as the pressure at sea level.

All it takes to show your claim is garbage is observing ANY pressure gradient caused by gravity, and that really is trivial and is the cause of buoyancy.
So your lie is wrong, and that is a plain fact which is easy for people to demonstrate for themselves, or by using plentiful data showing a pressure gradient in the atmosphere.

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Gas pressure is derived from the container walls - there can be no pressure without them (though the container can in theory, be "fields" of some sort)
You mean like a gravitational field? The thing you said couldn't?

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The OP didn't want to discuss the inescapable necessity of a container, so I left it out.
They pretty much did, as they explicitly excluded FE models which have a dome, i.e. a container.
Gravity, or whatever you want to substitute for it provides a top to the container.
A RE, provides a bottom, and due to the topology, removes the need for the sides, as the surface area is finite.
The question is what provides the bottom and sides for a FE?
You could have an infinite FE, with an infinite amount of air.

But how would a finite FE, without a dome, work?
You could still have the substitute for gravity providing the top, and while the FE would be a bottom for part of it, there aren't any sides to contain the air, so the air would spill over the edge. It would be like an above ground swimming pool, without the walls.

One or the other, surely?
You'd think so! But you'd be wrong.
No, you would be wrong, as you directly contradicted yourself.
On one hand you claimed air stacks and has no reason to go anywhere, but then you claimed it would expand to fill its container.
So which is it? Does it have no reason to go anywhere, or does it have reason to go and fill its container?
You can't have both.

It exhibits different behavior than most other states.
It is quite similar to other fluids.
The main distinction is that its density is very low, and varies with pressure.
This means that it doesn't have a well defined surface.
For a liquid, as you approach the top, the density remains roughly the same and you have an abrupt end.
For a gas, as you approach the top, the density drops, making the pressure gradient get smaller, so there is more distance to the top.

It's behaviour is so like other fluids (i.e. liquids) that for all substances (which don't break down at these conditions) you can get to a point where there is no distinction between liquid and gas. This is known as a supercritical fluid.

everyone knows that we don't lose our atmosphere and from that easily deduce the gas is contained.
The question is not simply is the air contained, the question is what provides this containment for a FE.

You seem to be going down the common path of circular reasoning for a FE:
"We know Earth is flat. Thus this can't be a problem for the FE. Thus this doesn't show the FE is wrong"

Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2021, 06:25:03 PM »
Air is also contained on a globe earth.
Gravity.


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sceptimatic

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2021, 01:15:28 AM »
Solids stack, liquids find their level.

Pascal's law applies in uniform solids and fluids for the same reason - stacking.

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No, it wouldn't.

Wrong. Do some scale testing.

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So no, an infinite sky vacuum above our heads will not cause the gas to just magically defy gravity

There is no gravitation, and even if there were - it demonstrably doesn't apply here. Do some scale testing, or remain misinformed.  Remember, "gravitation" is believed (never measured, it isn't measurable or real) strongest here on the surface of the earth where we do all science and established all the laws of gas behavior.

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Those that conceptualise Earth accelerating upwards do so to substitute for gravity.

Sort of. It's really just a straight convention/sign flip. It is for the purposes of mockery.

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People then come up with that as a cop out for why the planets and stars and the like don't fall and crash into Earth.

Because the lights in the sky aren't what you believe, and have been told, they are.  In any case, I agree - the earth is not infinitely accelerating upwards anymore than objects at rest are infinitely accelerating downwards - that's STUPID. What would power this limitless and scientific law defying acceleration? The whole thing is really dumb.

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What is around the FE to stop the air spilling off the edge? Or is your Earth infinite?

It is contained one way or another, we ALL know this from deduction and established scientific law - there are no other options even in potentia.  Gravitation (if it were in any way real) isn't powerful enough to do the job you need it to for your worldview - this is plain fact and easy to demonstrate for yourself.  Gas pressure is derived from the container walls - there can be no pressure without them (though the container can in theory, be "fields" of some sort)

The OP didn't want to discuss the inescapable necessity of a container, so I left it out.
I actually enjoy reading what you say, jack.
This is what I class as getting down to the basics of logical thought.
Nice one.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 01:21:08 AM by sceptimatic »

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JackBlack

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2021, 01:31:18 AM »
I actually enjoy reading what you say, jack.
Of course you would when he sides with you and spouts the same kind of nonsense, lacking any semblance of rational thought.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2021, 01:39:36 AM »
I actually enjoy reading what you say, jack.
Of course you would when he sides with you and spouts the same kind of nonsense, lacking any semblance of rational thought.
He's not siding with me he's simply using logic and that's what I love. I also find what he says very interesting.

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JackBlack

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2021, 01:42:52 AM »
He's not siding with me he's simply using logic and that's what I love. I also find what he says very interesting.
He is siding with you, propping up your fantasy.
Just like you, he has thrown logic out the window.

If you wish to claim he is using logic, perhaps you can try to back up his blatant lies about reality?

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sceptimatic

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2021, 01:54:05 AM »
He's not siding with me he's simply using logic and that's what I love. I also find what he says very interesting.
He is siding with you, propping up your fantasy.
Just like you, he has thrown logic out the window.

If you wish to claim he is using logic, perhaps you can try to back up his blatant lies about reality?
I'm done with you. I can't be *****.

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JackBlack

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2021, 02:00:25 AM »
I'm done with you. I can't be *****.
So that's a no then. All you can do is pat your buddy on the back. You can't explain why he is allegedly correct and using logic, especially not when logic outright defies his claims.

If you aren't willing to back him up, don't say he is using logic.
Especially when it is so clear he isn't.

Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2021, 05:29:49 AM »
Remember, "gravitation" is believed (never measured, it isn't measurable or real)
You are either ignorant of the facts, not believing the facts, or lying. I don't know which. But if it is a case of ignorance, maybe we can dispel that. Here is the best experiment I know of the measures gravitational constant:

https://www.npl.washington.edu/eotwash/sites/sand.npl.washington.edu.eotwash/files/documents/prl85-2869.pdf

Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2021, 06:13:15 AM »

One or the other, surely?


You'd think so! But you'd be wrong.

I am not, but that’s not the point.  Your own argument contradicts itself. 

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Gas behavior is well established as scientific law.  It exhibits different behavior than most other states.

You seem very fond of vaguely mentioning scientific law (sometimes even an actual one), and declaring it makes you right without demonstrating how.

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One of those is to always expand as homogenous as possible into an available volume. Nature abhors a vacuum.

Well we know for a fact that air pressure decreases with altitude, so whatever the cause for that is stopping the gas equalizing.  You correctly identify that as the gas’s weight (whether due to gravity or whatever you think is doing that job). 

It’s the weight of the gas that causes the pressure differential in the first place, much like the pressure of water increases with more above it.

On the other hand, if you want to claim that gas always equalizes from high to low pressure regardless of any other factors, you are ignoring the effect of the air’s weight and the cold hard fact that air gets thinner with altitude.

In other words you are mixing your memes.

Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2021, 08:47:34 AM »
Gases will separate just like water and oil.

Amonia and carbon monoxide sink and displace the air.
Thats why building mech rooms have sensors a 4ft to warn people so they dont die.

Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2021, 02:21:38 PM »
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There is no gravitation, and even if there were - it demonstrably doesn't apply here.
That's a pretty bold statement to make there jack. Would you care to post such a comment on other, mainstream physics forums as well as this flat Earth forum? If so be prepared for quite a barrage of replies and demands for evidence to back your claim up.

The force effect on any two objects with mass that we call gravity is I would suggest real enough. It is something we observe everyday. We call it weight. But exactly what gravity is at the physical level is perhaps a bit more complex to explain. What I do know is that we can mathematically find a value for the gravitational force that exists between two masses a certain distance apart.

What are we calculating then if there is no gravity. Perhaps you could elaborate?
« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 02:24:06 PM by Solarwind »

Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2021, 05:16:35 PM »

It is contained one way or another, we ALL know this from deduction and established scientific law - there are no other options even in potentia.  Gravitation (if it were in any way real) isn't powerful enough to do the job you need it to for your worldview - this is plain fact and easy to demonstrate for yourself.  Gas pressure is derived from the container walls - there can be no pressure without them (though the container can in theory, be "fields" of some sort)

If the gas were contained by some kind of external container, then the pressure everywhere inside that container would be the same.  But we know that gas pressure gets smaller as we go up in elevation.  That rules out an external container.

Since the gravitational constant has been well measured (see my quoted reference earlier in this thread), and since it obviously holds you and me and and all masses to the earth, gravity does in fact exist. Masses are attracted to masses.

So what is the basis for your (false) statement that it is not strong enough to support the normal worldview? It would appear that the fact you have air to breathe is powerful evidence that it is strong enough.

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sceptimatic

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Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2021, 11:15:56 PM »
Gases are contained by their own stacked mass, in atmosphere.
The container/dome is merely the end product of that stacking.

On Earth, in terms of us using containers, it's a case of capturing by force, atmosphere and forcing it into containers, artificially.
Down at sea level or simply under atmospheric conditions, we have to use a container.
From ground to the top and outwards, Earth creates it's very own skin. An ice skin. A dome.
A dome full of stacked layers of matter that decrease in dense mass with every layer from bottom to top.

A natural stacking and a natural end result of a dome skin.





Re: Air on a Flat Earth
« Reply #29 on: September 20, 2021, 12:16:08 AM »
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The container/dome is merely the end product of that stacking.
Tell me more about this container/dome. I can't find out much about it anywhere so where did you find about it?