Moon Tilt Illusion

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JJA

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Moon Tilt Illusion
« on: July 15, 2021, 07:32:05 AM »
I think someone investigating may be intrigued by it.

 For me it kindof opened my eyes to how they said (I think I was told it) a certain thing as a kid only to see it wasn't actually true....I was told the lit face of moon faces sun but then you see it is not exactly like that.

Even if the explanation was more complete then I remember I still find it eye opening and seems to leave possibilty for sky being sperical and hence footage of earth from space is not evidence definitive of globe.

I think you might be confused here.

The lit face of the Moon does face the Sun.  It looks like it doesn't with the naked eye, and that is the illusion. If you measure it, it lines up perfectly.

I took some pictures previously to demonstrate.

You need to click and zoom in on this one, and sorry the moon is so small but you can still see the crescent and see it does point at the sun.



Below is an example of what the illusion looks like to our eye. You can see the specular highlight and shading on the ball is pointed at an angle up, not at the sun.  Clearly that can't be right and it isn't, it's just an illusion caused by the curvature of the lens on the camera, and the same happens to our eyes.


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faded mike

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Re: Moon Tilt Illusion
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2021, 04:13:31 PM »
Hi JJA, sorry for the tardy reply - I don't remember exactly what i learned from my investigation into the "illusion", and now that i think of it i may have concluded that the mainstreeam explanation seemed to check out - my bad. However i am not so sure.
 
You have said that it is an illusion and suggested a cause - but can you explain what is going on in any more detail than that - like how it actually works, any of the finer points?

I have seen Tom Bishop talk about this and, i think, suggest that the mainstream explanation does not pan out.
" Using our vast surveillance system, we've uncovered revolutionary new information..."
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I am not a druggy

Re: Moon Tilt Illusion
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2021, 04:19:02 PM »
It pans out.
Tom bishop and his pencils are most certainly wrong.

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faded mike

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Re: Moon Tilt Illusion
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2021, 04:27:08 PM »
So what happens exactly? we cant really see the light "rays"(?) in between...
" Using our vast surveillance system, we've uncovered revolutionary new information..."
           -them

I am not a druggy

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Stash

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Re: Moon Tilt Illusion
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2021, 05:29:33 PM »
So what happens exactly? we cant really see the light "rays"(?) in between...

We've never really been a single entity.  We're more like a collection of rabid honey badgers stuffed into a 3 piece suit.  It occasionally bears the semblance of a man

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Jura-Glenlivet II

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Re: Moon Tilt Illusion
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2021, 02:56:25 AM »


Also, most of the time you orient yourself and look at the moon with respect to the horizon, when you see the daytime moon it is tilted up from the skyline, when you then turn your body to the sun in the opposite direction you do so again with the horizon as your reference, this gives the illusion that the moon is tilted up when the actual straight line goes over your head.

I remember on the other site when Tommo came crashing in with this anomaly, quite a few of us did the string test. Basically you go out with a long piece of string and hold it above your head between your view of the two bodies concerned, it’s immediately  apparent that it is an illusion, try it, Tom wouldn’t.
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Re: Moon Tilt Illusion
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2021, 03:01:34 AM »
seriously
wtf faded
you keep bringing up easily testable and researchable things in hopes to prove flat instead of letting the evidence show round.

you've got it backwards.
go watch some CSI grissom.

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JJA

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Re: Moon Tilt Illusion
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2021, 04:22:20 AM »
There are so many things Tom Bishop doesn't understand that we could make an entire thread about it. ;D

It's really a very simple illusion. Cameras (and our eyes) distort the world, making straight lines look curved.

Cameras have extra lenses to try and account for this, and these days have built in software correction as well.

Our brains also correct for this distortion and make straight lines look straight to us, but only if they have context to work with.

Below are two pictures I took of a light source and a round object. Both with the same camera and lens, just one head on and one looking up at an angle.

In the top image it sure LOOKS like the light is magically bending in a curve, and the flashlight is pointing up and the shadow of the 'Moon' is pointing downward. But it's not really doing that as seen from the picture below it. It's just the lens distorting the picture. Tilting the camera up doesn't make the light really bend.

That's all the Moon Tilt Illusion is.  It's just us seeing the world without our brains corrections, because the empty sky doesn't give any clues for our brains to work with.  It's not hard to understand or replicate, it's about as simple as it gets.


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faded mike

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Re: Moon Tilt Illusion
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2021, 10:57:04 PM »
I didn't read all of this here but to add something ti the topic i am quoting Tom Bishops reply in a

thread titled "double standards" in  flar earth general section i think

Quote from: rabinoz on March 04, 2020, 05:12:46 PM
No, it nowhere says that "light is curving" anywhere!
It does say "Straight lines in space are not actually transformed into great circle arcs on a visible celestial sphere."
Go and read THE MOON TILT ILLUSION by ANDREA K. MYERS-BEAGHTON AND ALAN L. MYERS and show where it says light curving on the the "celestial sphere"!

Myers says it here:

https://www.upenn.edu/emeritus/essays/MyersMoon.html

"The scientific explanation is based on the projection of a straight line onto the surface of a sphere. A simpler explanation was provided in a conversation with Benjamin Shen, Professor Emeritus of Astronomy at Penn, who said that light appears to follow a great circle route from the sun to the moon. That's why the moon's lit face appears to us not to face the sun squarely, regardless of whether the sun is above or below the horizon."

And here:

https://www.seas.upenn.edu/~amyers/MoonPaper20June.pdf

"The moon tilt illusion is not described in astronomy textbooks because astronomers know that straight lines in object space become great circles on the celestial sphere."

And elsewhere in the document here:

"Astronomers rely upon the celestial sphere model for maps of the sky because locations of stars and constellations depend only on their right ascension and declination. For the topocentric model used for the sun and the moon, location is specified by azimuth and altitude. All objects in the sky are assumed to be located at the same distance from the observer, as if pasted upon the surface of an imaginery sphere surrounding the observer. Astronomers, for whom the celestial sphere model is a basic tool for mapping the stars, are not surprised by the apparently curved path of light from the sun to the moon because they know that straight lines in 3-D object space are transformed to great-circle arcs on the imaginary celestial sphere."

He also says that the equations in the predictive portion use the celestial sphere concept:

"Our aim is to derive an equation for the magnitude of the moon tilt illusion that is straightforward to apply to all configurations of sun and moon in the sky. The viewer’s expectation for the direction of incoming light is modeled using vector geometry, which is appropriate for treating 3-D straight lines such as the sun-moon light ray. Analyzing an illusion may seem trivial but the explanation of the moon tilt illusion requires knowledge of the perspective projection basis of human vision, vector algebra, and geometrical concepts such as orthographic projections, the celestial sphere, and geodesics."

Maybe YOU should read it.

Quote
Surely the string stretched straight from the one ball in the direction of the moon to the other in the direction of the sun demonstrates that.

Nope. The string experiment stretches a string across our spherical field of vision. It does not prove that the illuminated part of the Moon is pointing at the Sun.



For a fish-bowl type simulation of the Moon Tilt Illusion see University of Nebraska-Lincoln's Moon Phases and the Horizon Diagram:



Quote from: rabinoz
In closing, we can all observe the moon's terminator tilt illusion so how do you explain it from your flat Earth path of the Sun and Moon?

It's explained in the Wiki link: https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion#Flat_Earth_Moon_Tilt
" Using our vast surveillance system, we've uncovered revolutionary new information..."
           -them

I am not a druggy

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faded mike

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Re: Moon Tilt Illusion
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2021, 10:58:11 PM »
There are pix in the original post which I urge anyone interedsted to check out.
" Using our vast surveillance system, we've uncovered revolutionary new information..."
           -them

I am not a druggy

Re: Moon Tilt Illusion
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2021, 01:55:56 AM »
Quote from: rabinoz on March 04, 2020, 05:12:46 PM
No, it nowhere says that "light is curving" anywhere!
It does say "Straight lines in space are not actually transformed into great circle arcs on a visible celestial sphere."
Go and read THE MOON TILT ILLUSION by ANDREA K. MYERS-BEAGHTON AND ALAN L. MYERS and show where it says light curving on the the "celestial sphere"!

Myers says it here:

https://www.upenn.edu/emeritus/essays/MyersMoon.html

"The scientific explanation is based on the projection of a straight line onto the surface of a sphere. A simpler explanation was provided in a conversation with Benjamin Shen, Professor Emeritus of Astronomy at Penn, who said that light appears to follow a great circle route from the sun to the moon. That's why the moon's lit face appears to us not to face the sun squarely, regardless of whether the sun is above or below the horizon."
1 - That link doesn't work.
2 - That statement clearly has "light appears to follow..."  This is NOT claiming that light IS CURVING on the celestial sphere. It is saying it APPEARS to follow. Notice the difference?

https://www.seas.upenn.edu/~amyers/MoonPaper20June.pdf

"The moon tilt illusion is not described in astronomy textbooks because astronomers know that straight lines in object space become great circles on the celestial sphere."
Again, this is not saying that light is curving.


And elsewhere in the document here:

"Astronomers rely upon the celestial sphere model for maps of the sky because locations of stars and constellations depend only on their right ascension and declination. For the topocentric model used for the sun and the moon, location is specified by azimuth and altitude. All objects in the sky are assumed to be located at the same distance from the observer, as if pasted upon the surface of an imaginery sphere surrounding the observer. Astronomers, for whom the celestial sphere model is a basic tool for mapping the stars, are not surprised by the apparently curved path of light from the sun to the moon because they know that straight lines in 3-D object space are transformed to great-circle arcs on the imaginary celestial sphere."
Again, APPARENTLY CURVED, not actually curved.

So no, maybe YOU should read it, and actually pay attention to what is said and what the objection is.

Light is not curving along the celestial sphere. It is following a straight line in real space, which is projected onto the celestial sphere making it appear to curve.

Tom Bishop is great at blatantly misrepresenting science to pretend it says things that it doesn't.

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JJA

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Re: Moon Tilt Illusion
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2021, 04:54:01 AM »
I didn't read all of this here but to add something ti the topic i am quoting Tom Bishops reply in a

thread titled "double standards" in  flar earth general section i think

You probably should read all of it. It's always a good idea to read and understand a subject or conversation before replying.

The misunderstanding here that JackBlack went into more detail is that the celestial sphere is NOT REAL. It's just a useful mathematical tool for plotting and locating stars and other bodies. It's not a physical object. It doesn't exist. Just like a vanishing point isn't an actual point you can walk up top and touch.

Quotes from your own sources:

"projection of a straight line onto the surface of a sphere"

"light appears to follow a great circle"

"as if pasted upon the surface of an imaginery sphere"

"great-circle arcs on the imaginary celestial sphere"

This experiment is very useful because anyone with string and a view of the sky can do it themselves. I suggest trying it yourself.

Tom Bishop is very good at cherry-picking single words and small phrases to misrepresent his view, as demonstrated in the Wiki page you linked. He simply doesn't understand the basic concepts he uses, just strings words and sentence fragments together and ignores the context

Re: Moon Tilt Illusion
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2021, 05:39:38 AM »

It's explained in the Wiki link: https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion#Flat_Earth_Moon_Tilt

The wiki is classic Tom.  He provides references to several sites explaining how it works, but then just dismisses the explanations.  Really all the “round earth” explanations just describe the same thing in different ways.