What are meteors, if space doesn't exist?

So if meteors are pieces of the dome that fall to the surface,  how do you explain meteor crater in Arizona or other similar meteor strike sites?

Depressions through collapse of solid structure, potentially.

Volcanoe elector static discharge transmutation.  The red one. With hydrogen.

Sorry i couldn't resist, but (potentially uninformedly) off the top of my head, maybe the first part. Sorry, I havent read the thread. But i just say this because i think transmmutation of elements may be common place and unmentioned.

So if meteors are pieces of the dome that fall to the surface,  how do you explain meteor crater in Arizona or other similar meteor strike sites?

Maybe the dinosaurs were more technologically advanced then we gave them credit for and those craters were nuclear or anti matter bomb strikes in a war which killed them all off. You know, like how we are going to off ourselves soon

Quote from: Platonius21 on July 11, 2021, 06:06:05 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 06, 2021, 10:31:50 PM

Quote from: Platonius21 on July 04, 2021, 11:19:24 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 04, 2021, 09:30:34 AM

Dislodged dome icicles.

What dislodged them and drew them to earth. Gravity??

Molecular breakdown by friction.

You conveniently did not answer the question about what drew them to earth. Is it gravity?

Friction and push on push.

As long as there's something above to lever off of, you'll always get a push on push or push on resistance to push which is basically the same thing.

As long as a mass is greater than the resistance directly below it, it will push through it all the way to a point where it equals the resistance and basically becomes buoyant, as we know it.

Push on push??  So if I throw a rock straight up it is pushing its way up?  Why does it stop pushing itself up and start pushing its way down?  Where is the push coming from?

Push on push??  So if I throw a rock straight up it is pushing its way up?  Why does it stop pushing itself up and start pushing its way down?  Where is the push coming from?

When you throw the rock you hit compressive force.
The compressive force is your energy and the dense mass of the rock compressing the atmospheric molecules in it's way. This slows down the rock and dissipates the energy.
The rock now hits a spot where advancement ceases and immediate descent is in motion because the energy used to propel the rock now has it sitting in layers of the stacked atmosphere which aided by the above atmosphere create a push back onto the rock which is resisted below but not enough to arrest the dense mass because every push through resistance is met by the above push squeezing the rock.


This will happen all the way up and with a build up of dome ice which works in the same way, except the build energy is far smaller scale from ground up, until the molecules take their broken down stage in the atmosphere up high and become buoyant until they gain in restructure before being too dense to stay in the stack.

Quote from: Platonius21 on July 13, 2021, 06:22:05 AM

Push on push??  So if I throw a rock straight up it is pushing its way up?  Why does it stop pushing itself up and start pushing its way down?  Where is the push coming from?

When you throw the rock you hit compressive force.
The compressive force is your energy and the dense mass of the rock compressing the atmospheric molecules in it's way. This slows down the rock and dissipates the energy.
The rock now hits a spot where advancement ceases and immediate descent is in motion because the energy used to propel the rock now has it sitting in layers of the stacked atmosphere which aided by the above atmosphere create a push back onto the rock which is resisted below but not enough to arrest the dense mass because every push through resistance is met by the above push squeezing the rock.

Your explanation makes no sense at all. Here are the flaws in it, and I invite you to address each one:

1. When the rock is moving upward, it does not compress the air because the air is free to move out of the way. It would only be compressed if its volume were constrained.

2. When the rock reaches the top of its travel it is briefly motionless and the air pressure on it is equal in all directions, so the rock is "squeezed" equally in all directions by the air pressure. The air cannot provide a "push" in a preferred direction, so that does not explain why the rock moves down.

It's no different than if you hold a rock out in your hand and let go of it. Before you let go of it, the air pressure on the rock is the same in all directions. It cannot fall due to the action of air pressure alone.  It falls because of gravity, the force with which the earth attracts it.

Push on push??  So if I throw a rock straight up it is pushing its way up?  Why does it stop pushing itself up and start pushing its way down?  Where is the push coming from?

When you throw the rock you hit compressive force.
The compressive force is your energy and the dense mass of the rock compressing the atmospheric molecules in it's way. This slows down the rock and dissipates the energy.
The rock now hits a spot where advancement ceases and immediate descent is in motion because the energy used to propel the rock now has it sitting in layers of the stacked atmosphere which aided by the above atmosphere create a push back onto the rock which is resisted below but not enough to arrest the dense mass because every push through resistance is met by the above push squeezing the rock.

Your explanation makes no sense at all. Here are the flaws in it, and I invite you to address each one:

1. When the rock is moving upward, it does not compress the air because the air is free to move out of the way. It would only be compressed if its volume were constrained.

The air does move out of the way. The rock compresses it out of the way with every movement against it.
There is a reaction to this which is for that air to return to it's original state just like water would if you threw a rock into it.
The rock would displace the air and every movement of the rock against the air due to energy applied by the thrower, is acted upon.
You always compress with applied energy and the reaction is for the void to be filled with the compression above to always create a resistance.

2. When the rock reaches the top of its travel it is briefly motionless and the air pressure on it is equal in all directions, so the rock is "squeezed" equally in all directions by the air pressure. The air cannot provide a "push" in a preferred direction, so that does not explain why the rock moves down.

It is never equal. It appears to be equal because you simply see a rock in air.
You forget that the atmosphere is stacked. It's layered and each layer below is more compressed than the layer above.
Anything thrown into those layers will naturally displace them but they will return to normal and the only part that won't is where the rock (in this instance) stops before being compressed back down with the atmospheric squeeze and the dense mass of the rock itself overcoming the resistance below.

It's no different than if you hold a rock out in your hand and let go of it. Before you let go of it, the air pressure on the rock is the same in all directions.

No it's not.
First of all your hand is creating a barrier and it's your hand that sits in the layered stack whilst holding the rock in it's own layered stack.

There's nothing equal and there never will be anything equal. There always has to be unequal for anything to work.One cannot cancel the other out, otherwise there is no movement for anything, including this scenario.

It cannot fall due to the action of air pressure alone.  It falls because of gravity, the force with which the earth attracts it.

Nope.
Air pressure and a dense mass is all that is needed.

It's simply displacement just like water.

Air pressure and a dense mass is all that is needed.

Yet each time it is brought up, you are completely incapable of explaining.
How does the air magically push it down, when the air below is at a greater pressure which should push it up?
That is something you have NEVER been able to explain with your nonsense.

My theory based on experiments. I do not claim to have see icicles from a dome. I do not claim to see a dome....etc.
That's the difference.
You people claim you've seen meteors and know what they are. You don't know. You believe what you're told they supposedly are, if you're honest.

What experiments proving icicles form on the dome did you conduct that didn't involve actually seeing the dome? 

Air pressure and a dense mass is all that is needed.

It's simply displacement just like water.

After you get high enough, there is no air to displace, no air pressure.  No "stacked atmosphere" above pushing down. Why would the rock still fall?

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 13, 2021, 10:46:03 PM

Air pressure and a dense mass is all that is needed.

It's simply displacement just like water.

After you get high enough, there is no air to displace, no air pressure.  No "stacked atmosphere" above pushing down. Why would the rock still fall?

There's always stacked atmosphere. There's always displacement.
Don't get mixed up with us struggling to breathe higher up and no atmosphere.

Quote from: Platonius21 on July 14, 2021, 06:48:46 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 13, 2021, 10:46:03 PM

Air pressure and a dense mass is all that is needed.

It's simply displacement just like water.

After you get high enough, there is no air to displace, no air pressure.  No "stacked atmosphere" above pushing down. Why would the rock still fall?

There's always stacked atmosphere. There's always displacement.
Don't get mixed up with us struggling to breathe higher up and no atmosphere.

Oh, I'm not the one who is mixed up. Why do you think planes are limited in how high they can fly, if not because the atmosphere is too thin? The atmospheric pressure is essentially zero past 15km or so. No push up there. Give it up.

Air pressure, aka the density that air in a volume, aka less mass in the amount of space it occupies, reduces as we increase in altitude.  If high pressure pushes objects towards lower pressure then we would all be pushed upwards.  But don't let a little thing like reality spoil any fantasy rebel hero cosplay you got going on.

Oh, I'm not the one who is mixed up. Why do you think planes are limited in how high they can fly, if not because the atmosphere is too thin? The atmospheric pressure is essentially zero past 15km or so. No push up there. Give it up.

Because as temperature, pressure and density all drop, so does the speed of sound. This reduces the maximum speed of the aircraft as its gets higher.
Also associated with this is high speed drag, which aircraft experience as they go transonic (i.e. part supersonic part subsonic).
Additionally, as the air pressure is reduced, so is the lift which means they need a higher angle of attack or speed to keep flying, or to put it another way, their stall speed is increased.

Eventually these 2 effects meet and there is a single velocity the plane can travel at, which means any slight variation such as due to turbulence or turning can result in the plane stalling or entering a transonic regime, likely causing it to fall out of the sky.

Conversely, if your aircraft is supersonic, this is not an issue as you exceed the speed well below this point and are fine flying at supersonic speeds with your minimum stall speed being above the speed of sound.

An example of that is the Concorde, with a service ceiling of 60 000 ft, well above the ~40 000 ft ceiling of other planes.
Or the blackbird which flies at Mach 3, with a ceiling of 85 000 ft (26 km)

Another main reason isn't that the pressure is ~0, instead it is that the pressure is ~ 0.2 atm.
At this pressure, in the event of cabin depressurisation, you can breathe pure oxygen to live. That is breathing pure oxygen at 0.2 atm. If you go higher, such as to 15 km, the pressure is closer to 0.1 atm, which is not a high enough pressure to allow you to breathe pure oxygen to live. Even pure oxygen at this pressure is not enough to keep humans functioning in any normal manner. Go too much lower and death will occur.
If a plane flies above 20 km and loses cabin pressure, it needs to dive down fast or the passengers die. Pilots flying aircraft at high altitudes wear a special suit to keep them from dying.

But to stop aerodynamic flight, you are looking at altitudes closer to 80-100 km, where you would enter orbit before aerodynamic lift keeps you flying.


The bigger issue for his model isn't why there is a push up there, it is why there is a push down at all.

The pressure is greater below the object, so the object should be pushed up, not down. (as well as other issues such as why the atmosphere is "stacked" in the first place such that there is a higher pressure on the ground rather than a constant pressure.

What brought that on that discourse Jack?  i was just making the point that the atmosphere up high is thinner with lower pressure and used the plane statement as an example. We are in agreement that Scepti's theory is baloney.

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 14, 2021, 09:06:18 PM

Quote from: Platonius21 on July 14, 2021, 06:48:46 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 13, 2021, 10:46:03 PM

Air pressure and a dense mass is all that is needed.

It's simply displacement just like water.

After you get high enough, there is no air to displace, no air pressure.  No "stacked atmosphere" above pushing down. Why would the rock still fall?

There's always stacked atmosphere. There's always displacement.
Don't get mixed up with us struggling to breathe higher up and no atmosphere.

Oh, I'm not the one who is mixed up. Why do you think planes are limited in how high they can fly, if not because the atmosphere is too thin? The atmospheric pressure is essentially zero past 15km or so. No push up there. Give it up.

The pressure is still pressure, whether it's higher or lower.
The point is, it's still a pressure for that stacked environment and is what is the catalyst for any dense mass within it to be squeezed down, as long as the dense mass is also more dense than the stacked layers it is sitting in.

Air pressure, aka the density that air in a volume, aka less mass in the amount of space it occupies, reduces as we increase in altitude.  If high pressure pushes objects towards lower pressure then we would all be pushed upwards.  But don't let a little thing like reality spoil any fantasy rebel hero cosplay you got going on.

Only if your dense mass is less than the dense mass of atmosphere it is in, otherwise you are crushed down.

Hence why helium balloons are squeezed up or air balloons are squeezed down, as an instance.

Quote from: Mikey T. on July 15, 2021, 11:42:58 AM

Air pressure, aka the density that air in a volume, aka less mass in the amount of space it occupies, reduces as we increase in altitude.  If high pressure pushes objects towards lower pressure then we would all be pushed upwards.  But don't let a little thing like reality spoil any fantasy rebel hero cosplay you got going on.

Only if your dense mass is less than the dense mass of atmosphere it is in, otherwise you are crushed down.

No, not just for things less dense than the atmosphere.
High pressure pushes towards lower pressure. That means if it really was the air, EVERYTHING should be pushed up.

Why should the low pressure air above be able to push anything into the higher pressure air below?

Quote from: Mikey T. on July 15, 2021, 11:42:58 AM

Air pressure, aka the density that air in a volume, aka less mass in the amount of space it occupies, reduces as we increase in altitude.  If high pressure pushes objects towards lower pressure then we would all be pushed upwards.  But don't let a little thing like reality spoil any fantasy rebel hero cosplay you got going on.

Only if your dense mass is less than the dense mass of atmosphere it is in, otherwise you are crushed down.

Hence why helium balloons are squeezed up or air balloons are squeezed down, as an instance.

Why down?  Why is the pressure higher, the lower you go in altitude?  What makes it go down, if higher pressure pushes towards lower pressure and pushes us then why isn't it pushing us up, from the higher pressure towards the lower pressure above us?  Why don't I weigh less when I go inside, less of the stack to push down on me. 
Also, since we are talking about air, colder air   usually has more density or pressure, ask any pilot, cold days make the best days for flying, especially in small planes.  If colder usually means more pressure, then why is the pressure lower as we increase altitude and also colder?  Why does it get colder as we get closer towards most of the supposed FE sun location?  Why does pressure systems than supposedly push us down to Earth move downwards?

Why should the low pressure air above be able to push anything into the higher pressure air below?

Sit back and absorb what I'm about to tell you.

Any mass denser than the atmosphere it is in will stay grounded if energy is not applied.

I'll repeat it and highlight the last bit.

Any mass denser than the atmosphere it is in will stay grounded if energy is not applied.


Ok, so if energy is applied to a denser mass than the atmosphere it is in, will overcome that atmosphere by the strength of the applied energy.


For instance: If there is a rock on the ground and you pick it up to throw it into the air above you then you are applying energy to that rock to displace the atmosphere above  until the energy applied to that rock is acted upon by the above resistance....which, when the energy is fully resisted the rock sits within that set of stacked layers.

Those layers are now more compressed by that dense mass and act upon it, pushing it down. Or basically squeezing it down until it takes it's place against a resistance that can hold it.


I've given you the time of day, don't spoil it.

Sit back and absorb what I'm about to tell you.

Stop just telling me to absorb your BS and actually start trying to explain it.

Any mass denser than the atmosphere it is in will stay grounded if energy is not applied.

We are talking about something in the air. That means it isn't grounded and thus can't stay grounded.
You need to explain what grounds it in the first place.

Even if you did want to appeal to something that was grounded, you need to provide an explanation for what is magically keeping it there.

You also need to explain why it only works for denser masses. Why does the mass matter at all? Why doesn't the same apply to masses less dense than the air?

Those layers are now more compressed by that dense mass and act upon it, pushing it down.

Which is why I focus on an object held in the hand and released.
It isn't being thrown up. The atmosphere has been given the time to return to equilibrium.
That means it didn't have energy applied immediately before hand to compress the air in front of it.
It means the air is a higher pressure below it than above.

You need to explain why the air magically pushes it down.
That doesn't mean to completely avoid the issue, it means to explain why the air is pushing the object in direct defiance of the pressure gradient.

And no, you haven't given me the time of day as yet again, you don't actually address what has been said and instead you just dodge the issue.

Why down?  Why is the pressure higher, the lower you go in altitude?

More molecules  per layer.

What makes it go down, if higher pressure pushes towards lower pressure and pushes us then why isn't it pushing us up, from the higher pressure towards the lower pressure above us?

Because we are displacing the same density of atmosphere.

  Why don't I weigh less when I go inside, less of the stack to push down on me.

Going inside changes very little pressure.
However, if you shut your doors and windows you will change the air pressure slightly from outside to inside.
You can prove this by simply Opening your front door or window and even better if you open a front and back door or window.
As for weighing less, your scales will be in a similar environment and will barely register you but delicate scales would likely register a small change.

 

Also, since we are talking about air, colder air   usually has more density or pressure, ask any pilot, cold days make the best days for flying, especially in small planes.  If colder usually means more pressure, then why is the pressure lower as we increase altitude and also colder?

The best way for me to answer this is to think about water and think of sitting in a boat nicely floating.
Now go under that boat and set off air tanks under the boat and watch it sink.

Why?

Because you've made the water much less dense by agitating it and creating intense friction and much less dense mass of water at that point.

Sit a boat in that and think of it as extreme heat in terms of a plane. The boat could sink and the plane will struggle to fly.

Take away the air from the water and the water becomes denser again.
Think of this as the plane being in colder air, meaning much much less agitation, meaning plenty of extra medium to propel into and away.

  Why does it get colder as we get closer towards most of the supposed FE sun location?

It's all down to reflection of it.
Remember, the sun energy might be in the centre but the resultant reflected waves back to us are from a dome, so us getting closer to the energy doesn't mean closer to heat.

  Why does pressure systems than supposedly push us down to Earth move downwards?

They only move downwards if agitated atmosphere pushes upwards and relegates that portion of upper atmosphere, below.


Don;t spend any time calling me names. You asked and you know my mindset.
If you don't want the explanation then don't ask/.

Quote from: Mikey T. on July 16, 2021, 04:33:31 AM

Why down?  Why is the pressure higher, the lower you go in altitude?

More molecules  per layer.

Quote from: Mikey

What makes it go down, if higher pressure pushes towards lower pressure and pushes us then why isn't it pushing us up, from the higher pressure towards the lower pressure above us?

Because we are displacing the same density of atmosphere.

Quote from: Mikey

  Why don't I weigh less when I go inside, less of the stack to push down on me.

Going inside changes very little pressure.
However, if you shut your doors and windows you will change the air pressure slightly from outside to inside.
You can prove this by simply Opening your front door or window and even better if you open a front and back door or window.
As for weighing less, your scales will be in a similar environment and will barely register you but delicate scales would likely register a small change.

 

Quote from: Mikey

Also, since we are talking about air, colder air   usually has more density or pressure, ask any pilot, cold days make the best days for flying, especially in small planes.  If colder usually means more pressure, then why is the pressure lower as we increase altitude and also colder?

The best way for me to answer this is to think about water and think of sitting in a boat nicely floating.
Now go under that boat and set off air tanks under the boat and watch it sink.

Why?

Because you've made the water much less dense by agitating it and creating intense friction and much less dense mass of water at that point.

Sit a boat in that and think of it as extreme heat in terms of a plane. The boat could sink and the plane will struggle to fly.

Take away the air from the water and the water becomes denser again.
Think of this as the plane being in colder air, meaning much much less agitation, meaning plenty of extra medium to propel into and away.

Quote from: Mikey

  Why does it get colder as we get closer towards most of the supposed FE sun location?

It's all down to reflection of it.
Remember, the sun energy might be in the centre but the resultant reflected waves back to us are from a dome, so us getting closer to the energy doesn't mean closer to heat.

Quote from: Mikey

  Why does pressure systems than supposedly push us down to Earth move downwards?

They only move downwards if agitated atmosphere pushes upwards and relegates that portion of upper atmosphere, below.


Don;t spend any time calling me names. You asked and you know my mindset.
If you don't want the explanation then don't ask/.

Why down?  I'll ask it again.  Why that vector?  Nothing you have ever said addresses that. 
Also, where in my questions did I call you names?  I only return what you give because when you refuse to answer something you get defensive and start off the aggressive posting.  That's when I usually return the same attitude to you.  So let's not start off immediately playing the victim game ok.
Also I was asking about air pressure.  You gave me water analogies that did nothing to address my questions, please try again.

Quote from: Platonius21 on July 15, 2021, 07:22:33 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 14, 2021, 09:06:18 PM

Quote from: Platonius21 on July 14, 2021, 06:48:46 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 13, 2021, 10:46:03 PM

Air pressure and a dense mass is all that is needed.

It's simply displacement just like water.

After you get high enough, there is no air to displace, no air pressure.  No "stacked atmosphere" above pushing down. Why would the rock still fall?

There's always stacked atmosphere. There's always displacement.
Don't get mixed up with us struggling to breathe higher up and no atmosphere.

Oh, I'm not the one who is mixed up. Why do you think planes are limited in how high they can fly, if not because the atmosphere is too thin? The atmospheric pressure is essentially zero past 15km or so. No push up there. Give it up.

The pressure is still pressure, whether it's higher or lower.
The point is, it's still a pressure for that stacked environment and is what is the catalyst for any dense mass within it to be squeezed down, as long as the dense mass is also more dense than the stacked layers it is sitting in.

What is your definition of a squeeze? Most people would consider a squeeze being two equal opposing forces on an object that tries to compress that object. A squeeze does not provide a motivating force to an object. So it makes no sense to say a mass is "squeezed down" by the atmosphere.

Your problem is that you don't understand that masses attract each other and the rock falls because the earth attracts it. Open your mind and try to absorb that fact. It is well established science.

Quote from: Mikey T. on July 16, 2021, 04:33:31 AM

Why down?  Why is the pressure higher, the lower you go in altitude?

More molecules  per layer.

That isn't an answer. That is just restating what the problem is.
Why are there more molecules per layer?

In the absence of a force, gas will even itself out, making the pressure and number density uniform.

We have been over this countless times.

You need another force, like gravity, to cause your stacking, to cause the pressure gradient in the first place.

Quote from: Mikey

What makes it go down, if higher pressure pushes towards lower pressure and pushes us then why isn't it pushing us up, from the higher pressure towards the lower pressure above us?

Because we are displacing the same density of atmosphere.

This doesn't address the issue at all.
The issue is that the pressure is greater below the object.
You need to explain how the low pressure air above the object pushes the object down into the high pressure air below.

Quote from: Mikey

  Why don't I weigh less when I go inside, less of the stack to push down on me.

Going inside changes very little pressure.

You are effectively claiming the pressure is irrelevant.
There is negligible change in pressure above and below the object, yet you claim that the air still magically pushes you down.
And that negligible change has it the wrong way around, with the greater pressure below.

And if the stack is magically pushing down, windows shouldn't do anything.

As for weighing less, your scales will be in a similar environment and will barely register you but delicate scales would likely register a small change.

Again, the problem for you is that change is in the wrong direction.
When we lower the pressure, the apparent weight of the object INCREASES.
This is easier to see by submerging it in a fluid of greater density than the air, where the weight decreases.

If you don't want the explanation then don't ask/.

We want an explanation. The problem is that you refuse to give one.

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 15, 2021, 09:19:42 PM

Quote from: Platonius21 on July 15, 2021, 07:22:33 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 14, 2021, 09:06:18 PM

Quote from: Platonius21 on July 14, 2021, 06:48:46 AM

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 13, 2021, 10:46:03 PM

Air pressure and a dense mass is all that is needed.

It's simply displacement just like water.

After you get high enough, there is no air to displace, no air pressure.  No "stacked atmosphere" above pushing down. Why would the rock still fall?

There's always stacked atmosphere. There's always displacement.
Don't get mixed up with us struggling to breathe higher up and no atmosphere.

Oh, I'm not the one who is mixed up. Why do you think planes are limited in how high they can fly, if not because the atmosphere is too thin? The atmospheric pressure is essentially zero past 15km or so. No push up there. Give it up.

The pressure is still pressure, whether it's higher or lower.
The point is, it's still a pressure for that stacked environment and is what is the catalyst for any dense mass within it to be squeezed down, as long as the dense mass is also more dense than the stacked layers it is sitting in.

What is your definition of a squeeze? Most people would consider a squeeze being two equal opposing forces on an object that tries to compress that object. A squeeze does not provide a motivating force to an object. So it makes no sense to say a mass is "squeezed down" by the atmosphere.

Your problem is that you don't understand that masses attract each other and the rock falls because the earth attracts it. Open your mind and try to absorb that fact. It is well established science.

To attract is to pull.
There is no such thing as pull.
So right away your mass attracting mass, is dead,

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 16, 2021, 05:08:55 AM

Quote from: Mikey T. on July 16, 2021, 04:33:31 AM

Why down?  Why is the pressure higher, the lower you go in altitude?

More molecules  per layer.

That isn't an answer. That is just restating what the problem is.
Why are there more molecules per layer?

In the absence of a force, gas will even itself out, making the pressure and number density uniform.

We have been over this countless times.

You need another force, like gravity, to cause your stacking, to cause the pressure gradient in the first place.

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 16, 2021, 05:08:55 AM

Quote from: Mikey

What makes it go down, if higher pressure pushes towards lower pressure and pushes us then why isn't it pushing us up, from the higher pressure towards the lower pressure above us?

Because we are displacing the same density of atmosphere.

This doesn't address the issue at all.
The issue is that the pressure is greater below the object.
You need to explain how the low pressure air above the object pushes the object down into the high pressure air below.

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 16, 2021, 05:08:55 AM

Quote from: Mikey

  Why don't I weigh less when I go inside, less of the stack to push down on me.

Going inside changes very little pressure.

You are effectively claiming the pressure is irrelevant.
There is negligible change in pressure above and below the object, yet you claim that the air still magically pushes you down.
And that negligible change has it the wrong way around, with the greater pressure below.

And if the stack is magically pushing down, windows shouldn't do anything.

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 16, 2021, 05:08:55 AM

As for weighing less, your scales will be in a similar environment and will barely register you but delicate scales would likely register a small change.

Again, the problem for you is that change is in the wrong direction.
When we lower the pressure, the apparent weight of the object INCREASES.
This is easier to see by submerging it in a fluid of greater density than the air, where the weight decreases.

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 16, 2021, 05:08:55 AM

If you don't want the explanation then don't ask/.

We want an explanation. The problem is that you refuse to give one.

If you are not willing to understand it then it's your problem, not mine.

Quote from: JackBlack on July 16, 2021, 02:54:10 PM

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 16, 2021, 05:08:55 AM

Quote from: Mikey T. on July 16, 2021, 04:33:31 AM

Why down?  Why is the pressure higher, the lower you go in altitude?

More molecules  per layer.

That isn't an answer. That is just restating what the problem is.
Why are there more molecules per layer?

In the absence of a force, gas will even itself out, making the pressure and number density uniform.

We have been over this countless times.

You need another force, like gravity, to cause your stacking, to cause the pressure gradient in the first place.

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 16, 2021, 05:08:55 AM

Quote from: Mikey

What makes it go down, if higher pressure pushes towards lower pressure and pushes us then why isn't it pushing us up, from the higher pressure towards the lower pressure above us?

Because we are displacing the same density of atmosphere.

This doesn't address the issue at all.
The issue is that the pressure is greater below the object.
You need to explain how the low pressure air above the object pushes the object down into the high pressure air below.

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 16, 2021, 05:08:55 AM

Quote from: Mikey

  Why don't I weigh less when I go inside, less of the stack to push down on me.

Going inside changes very little pressure.

You are effectively claiming the pressure is irrelevant.
There is negligible change in pressure above and below the object, yet you claim that the air still magically pushes you down.
And that negligible change has it the wrong way around, with the greater pressure below.

And if the stack is magically pushing down, windows shouldn't do anything.

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 16, 2021, 05:08:55 AM

As for weighing less, your scales will be in a similar environment and will barely register you but delicate scales would likely register a small change.

Again, the problem for you is that change is in the wrong direction.
When we lower the pressure, the apparent weight of the object INCREASES.
This is easier to see by submerging it in a fluid of greater density than the air, where the weight decreases.

Quote from: sceptimatic on July 16, 2021, 05:08:55 AM

If you don't want the explanation then don't ask/.

We want an explanation. The problem is that you refuse to give one.

If you are not willing to understand it then it's your problem, not mine.

Brilliant way of saying that you are just lying.

To attract is to pull.
There is no such thing as pull.
So right away your mass attracting mass, is dead,

There is no such thing as attraction / pull?  Have you never placed two magnets on a table and then moved first one closer to the second one and have the second one be attracted and pulled and move to the first one? It's a simple experiment -- even you could do it (an assumption).

That establishes that attraction / pull exists. And the fact that masses attract each other has been proven and measured here:

http://www.npl.washington.edu/eotwash/sites/sand.npl.washington.edu.eotwash/files/documents/prl85-2869.pdf

Read and learn.

If you are not willing to understand it then it's your problem, not mine.

I am willing to understand, the problem is that you are not willing to explain.

The problem is extremely simple, you have an object in the air.
It has a higher pressure below it, and a lower pressure above it.

How does this lower pressure air push it down?

Trying to tell us that the pressure is actually greater above the object because it was thrown upwards does not help.
This is because you can simply have the object held in mid-air to allow the pressure to equalise, and then release it.

In order for your model to be able to work at all, you need to explain how the low pressure air above pushes the object down into the higher pressure air below.


Likewise, the problem is extremely simple, why does the atmosphere stack?
While this may be expressed as why is the pressure greater the lower down the stack you are, the fundamental issue is why does the atmosphere stack at all?
As such, trying to "explain" it by claiming that there are more molecules the lower down, is not actually explaining anything.
You are still simply stating that the atmosphere is stacked.

In order to address this issue you need to explain what causes the atmosphere to stack.

We both know that you will never do that as it requires admitting there is force, other than the air, causing the air to go down.
This force is gravity, and acts on all objects, and causes the air above to push the air below down due to its weight from gravity.
But this means gravity is real and acts on mass, so there is no need to invoke your magic air.


Likewise, the problem is, if it is the air pushing things down, why does the weight increase when you reduce air pressure (technically density), and why does it decrease when you replace the air with a denser medium.

If it was just pressure, the medium shouldn't matter.
But also relating to point 1, we know why the weight changes like that, buoyancy.
There is a pressure gradient across the substance.
In dense enough fluids, or a large enough vertical distance, we can directly measure this pressure difference.

Doing this shows us that the pressure difference follows a very simple law (for a constant rho, if you have the density or g change significantly you need to integrate instead.):
dP=rho_m*g*dh

And because there is a pressure difference, with the pressure greater below, this means the object is pushed UP, not down, by the fluid it is in.
The formula for that is also quite easy:
Fb=g*rho_m*V.

This matches what is observed quite well.
But it means there is a downwards force other than the fluid.
And then this downwards force exists in the absence of a fluid.
In fact, the downwards force is:
Fg=g*rho_o*V.

This then directly explains why some objects (those denser than the medium) fall, while others float.
The net force on the object is (noting that this is a downwards force, where a negative number would indicate an upwards force):
F=r*V*(rho_o-rho_m).

So no, the problem is not my refusal to understand.
It is entirely your refusal to address the issues, likely because the mainstream model works wonderfully to explain reality, while your model continually fails to explain trivial things.

To attract is to pull.
There is no such thing as pull.
So right away your mass attracting mass, is dead,

You mean you CLAIM there is no such thing as pull, even though it is observed all the time, so right away your objection is dead.

Have you never placed two magnets on a table and then moved first one closer to the second one and have the second one be attracted and pulled and move to the first one? It's a simple experiment -- even you could do it (an assumption).

He has already tried claiming that is just the air pushing them, and raised a bunch of just how that would work, which he then preceded to flee from as he cannot justify his claim.