Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...

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Timeisup

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Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #210 on: July 26, 2021, 02:13:23 AM »
Better question: why can't you just own being wrong, instead of trying to shift the conversation while avoiding taking any ownership for the awful argument you keep adhering too and also simultaneously attempting to run away from?


You keep saying that, but never saying why! The reason being I’m not.

The point is I am 100% correct in what I am saying. You may well not like it but that’s life.

What I find puzzling is that you are unable to see the reality of the situation.

The question of the shape of the earth is not an issue for science and hasn’t been for over a thousand years, apart from a few fringe FE believers.

Reading about and using another’s methods, techniques and instructions are as good as listening to them. How you can not take that simple point on board is baffling.

No instructions no experiment!

So unless Jack Black has his own original experiment up his sleeve, he is wrong,
Really…..what a laugh!!!

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JackBlack

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Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #211 on: July 26, 2021, 02:26:04 AM »
The reason  why I maintain the time is important is because this is where we are currently living in the here and now , in 2021 which is a fact unless you wish to dispute that!
Again, the only way that would have any baring on the discussion is if it meant you could no longer do those experiments.

So it is you taking issue that speaks volumes.

There is no getting away from it and this is the point on which the argument/debate sits.
No, it isn't.
Again, that is your strawman.
The issue is not if you can come up with a brand new way.
It is if the only way to get the knowledge is to just accept what an expert says.

YOU hear about this, read up on the method and give it a go are very happy with the result and then shout from the rooftops that  you did it with no expert assistance.
Stop lying.
That is nothing like my position.
Again, it is your strawman that no expert assistance is needed.
You are the only one trying to argue that, likely because you know your position is indefensible, so you are setting up strawmen to try to knock down.

Again, this is the quote that this "debate" is actually about:
"The only thing you could possibly do to understand the shape of the Earth is to study from the current literature on what the subject matter experts say the Earth is."

Again, note that this is focusing specifically on subject matter experts, which means experts on the shape of Earth, not just any expert; and far more importantly, it is just accepting what the experts say Earth is.

Stop ignoring that point.
Stop pretending it is something else.
Deal with the actual claim.
Either admit it is wrong, or defend that claim.

Reading about and using another’s methods, techniques and instructions are as good as listening to them.
Again, the claim was not just listening to them. It is listening specifically to what they say Earth is, as if listening to their statements on what Earth is is the only way to determine the shape of Earth.

There is a fundamental difference between them asserting Earth is round with you just accepting it; and them explaining a variety of experiments you can perform yourself to confirm Earth is round.

One requires you take it entirely on faith, making it a religion rather than science.
The other allows you to actually verify it for yourself, allowing it to be science.

Again, who came up with the experiment doesn't matter one bit.
Again, what actually matters is if you can conduct the experiment (even if you need help) or if you need to just accept what they say.

So no, as long as experiments can be done, you are wrong.

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Mikey T.

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Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #212 on: July 26, 2021, 04:10:24 AM »
Wow, you've never taken apart toys as a child to figure out how they worked.  Never played with legos to build things.  I guess those are not experiments in your mind.  You've never done anything that someone didn't expressly tell you how to do.  Never learned anything that wasn't force fed to you.  Either you are the saddest person in the world, or you are full of bullshit.  I was a very inquisitive child, I had to know how things worked, so as far back as I can remember I was doing experiments, even before I knew what that word was or even how to read.  In fact I was discouraged because I would end up breaking about a third of my toys from taking them apart.  But I built a few weird things also, changing their purpose.
 
Also this isn't the claim that people are arguing against, you continue to support that you cannot get information from any other place than an expert.  That is wrong.  In your world there would be no innovation, no new anything.  We would all be waiting for that first expert, that can't be because we can't learn from other sources.  The reason so much, but NOT ALL, is based off of previous knowledge is because that is the easiest path, the natural evolution of technology, not the only path though.
Weird how you still cannot be honest also.  This weird fixation with Jack is a bit creepy.

Did I design any experiments, yes, it was a part of the curriculum.  Here is the "insert effect here", design an experiment to test and verify this effect.  The grade wasn't on if you proved or disproved, it was on whether you designed the experiment in a way that mitigated external factors.  We can play this idiotic semantics game all day.  I didn't HAVE to write any books.  I have in fact wrote several technical articles on various aspects of PLC programming and communications protocols that I couldn't find out on the web. 

Also, figuring out things without instructions is kinda my everyday job.  So yeah I know a thing or two about gathering knowledge.  Is that built knowledge I already gained, yes.  Does that new knowledge REQUIRE an expert in that field to show me, no.  An almost weekly occurrence is for someone to come up to me and ask me to automate this, or design that, with no real information to speak of, and being in a facility that is the only place that does some of the things we do, there isn't a huge amount of information out there to tell me how to complete those requests. 

With your past inability to be honest when called out, and your idiotic assumptions on how knowledge can be gathered, I serious doubt you ever worked in education, at the very least you were not a teacher.  The tell is, you said you worked in education, not you were a teacher or professor.  Then tried to claim that that gave you more knowledge about the subject when you absolutely do not.  It's like saying I worked in the airline industry therefore I know everything about being a pilot, when I in fact worked as an automation engineer in a factory that made composite airplane engine parts.  True story. 
Thanks for the D-, it means nothing really but hey you tried to play act like a teacher.

I think are wandering well away from the central question.

Of course play is vitally important in a Childs development, you won't get any argument on that from me.

All your other comments are you own opinion and you are welcome to them.

I was a teacher.

The D- was a reflection of the comment you made in that it failed to prove the point you were trying to make, and in fact did the exact opposite in proving my point.

Why the obsession with me and not the point Im trying to prove? Why do 'you' people always want to drag the person into the discussion and make pretty petty and pointless judgments
Which point, I've been repeatedly addressing the same one about experts being required for knowledge gain.  You defended that idiotic statement not me.  I also pointed out your dishonesty and clear narcissistic tendencies when cornered, never once trying to be honest, just constant deflection. 
I still do not believe you were a teacher, if you did I hope it wasn't long.  You clearly do not have the intellectual honesty or emotional makeup to do it adequately.  I have many teachers in my family and even thought of following that path since I really do value teaching people, but things changed emotionally for me after some military deployments and I am not suited for the role.  The important thing being that I know I wouldn't have the patience and I see the same in you.  Hence me trying desperately to get you to see the failures I made going down this path, but you are more likely just as stubborn as I am. 
Play is a learning mechanism, curiosity is a learning mechanism, neither REQUIRE an expert.  That's just 2 broad examples of the falsehood of the statement you are so fervently defending.  I pretty much know why you are sticking to your guns, even if it is so clearly wrong.  Takes one, or rather hopefully a former one, to know one.  Narcissism can be addictive, honestly thinking you know more than anyone else around you, unable to admit failures.  I get it, I'm trying to deal with my own failures in that respect every day, do I backside, oh yeah all the time.  Not the little mean nothing remarks I make to scepti, which I hope he realizes are just for fun, the real times it happens.  As far as obsession with you, I have none, but many people tend to hate what they see in the mirror and your behavior has been reminding me of that fact.  I wanted you to realize it is better to just be honest instead of squirming around to try to find some way that you were not actually wrong.  I thought the trigger was that it was Jack disagreeing with you, and your responses and actions toward him continue to back that up pretty well. 
Again, state your position clearly, because this entire fiasco has been about knowledge requiring experts to deliver it.  Jack has quoted it many times, you have supported it many times, it is completely wrong.  Using prior knowledge is not the same and not all knowledge is based off of prior knowledge anyway.  I gave you examples with the cabin thought experiment which you glossed over and just concentrated on my use of plotting star paths.  Weird how the ancient Mayans plotted the star paths and created full predictions of star movements without some expert, or that none of their experts traveled to ancient Egypt to train those astronomers, or the ancient Celtic astronomers, or ancient Asian astronomers.  Where did those differing pathways to knowledge about the star movements come from?  I guess there was some ancient alien experts to teach them all.

You really do need a break. Why all the personal attacks?

Stick to the point.

I dont care a toss about your rather deranged sounding opinions. What you think is no more than what you think. And if I were you I’d keep what you think to yourself as you continually make yourself come over as a fool.
So Timmy, you being honest, that's just off the table then huh. 
I also asked you to clarify your point, but you can't, can you? 
So what if you think I'm deranged, the point was that I've been there and I was trying to help you.  But lash out, claim it is an personal attack, call me a fool.  It's ok, really.
But remember, you are wrong about requiring an expert to pass on knowledge. 
« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 04:17:05 AM by Mikey T. »

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Mikey T.

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Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #213 on: July 26, 2021, 04:14:52 AM »
And, also you made me be on Boyd's side, I hate that very much.  Not that Boyd is inherently wrong, I just don't want to agree with him if I can help it. 

Still luv ya Boyd, just a joke.

Wrong again. Another D- for you.

I MADE you do nothing, in that it was your own free choice.

If you imagine people you have never met can MAKE you do things then you have a serious problem of personal responsibility.

Your free choice your free problem.
Nothing to do with me. I will not be your scapegoat!
Wow, you have a real problem.  It was a joke, aimed at Boyd.

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Timeisup

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  • You still think that. You cannot be serious ?
Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #214 on: July 26, 2021, 04:57:45 AM »
The reason  why I maintain the time is important is because this is where we are currently living in the here and now , in 2021 which is a fact unless you wish to dispute that!
Again, the only way that would have any baring on the discussion is if it meant you could no longer do those experiments.

So it is you taking issue that speaks volumes.

There is no getting away from it and this is the point on which the argument/debate sits.
No, it isn't.
Again, that is your strawman.
The issue is not if you can come up with a brand new way.
It is if the only way to get the knowledge is to just accept what an expert says.

YOU hear about this, read up on the method and give it a go are very happy with the result and then shout from the rooftops that  you did it with no expert assistance.
Stop lying.
That is nothing like my position.
Again, it is your strawman that no expert assistance is needed.
You are the only one trying to argue that, likely because you know your position is indefensible, so you are setting up strawmen to try to knock down.

Again, this is the quote that this "debate" is actually about:
"The only thing you could possibly do to understand the shape of the Earth is to study from the current literature on what the subject matter experts say the Earth is."

Again, note that this is focusing specifically on subject matter experts, which means experts on the shape of Earth, not just any expert; and far more importantly, it is just accepting what the experts say Earth is.

Stop ignoring that point.
Stop pretending it is something else.
Deal with the actual claim.
Either admit it is wrong, or defend that claim.

Reading about and using another’s methods, techniques and instructions are as good as listening to them.
Again, the claim was not just listening to them. It is listening specifically to what they say Earth is, as if listening to their statements on what Earth is is the only way to determine the shape of Earth.

There is a fundamental difference between them asserting Earth is round with you just accepting it; and them explaining a variety of experiments you can perform yourself to confirm Earth is round.

One requires you take it entirely on faith, making it a religion rather than science.
The other allows you to actually verify it for yourself, allowing it to be science.

Again, who came up with the experiment doesn't matter one bit.
Again, what actually matters is if you can conduct the experiment (even if you need help) or if you need to just accept what they say.

So no, as long as experiments can be done, you are wrong.


There are no earth shape subject matter experts! Everyone knows the shape of the earth its no secret! The only place its an open question is here! In the real world there is no issue as its a globe!

What is your position?

Can you prove what ever it is you want to prove with no expert assistance?

Does your method involve previous methods devised by another individual?

You keep saying this:-

The other allows you to actually verify it for yourself, allowing it to be science.

Please explain what this 'Other' is! and explain HOW you would verify it? You keep saying you can but never say how? If thats not dishonest then I dont know what is.

You keep mentioning it, observations and experiments but never say what the hell they are, as in reality, they don't exist.

You are attempting to use a non existent entity to prove a point! How illogical is that?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 05:27:15 AM by Timeisup »
Really…..what a laugh!!!

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Timeisup

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Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #215 on: July 26, 2021, 05:00:53 AM »
And, also you made me be on Boyd's side, I hate that very much.  Not that Boyd is inherently wrong, I just don't want to agree with him if I can help it. 

Still luv ya Boyd, just a joke.

Wrong again. Another D- for you.

I MADE you do nothing, in that it was your own free choice.

If you imagine people you have never met can MAKE you do things then you have a serious problem of personal responsibility.

Your free choice your free problem.
Nothing to do with me. I will not be your scapegoat!
Wow, you have a real problem.  It was a joke, aimed at Boyd.

Well why include me? Some back peddling going on there!

PS. Reading someone mind is not one of my skills.
Really…..what a laugh!!!

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Timeisup

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  • You still think that. You cannot be serious ?
Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #216 on: July 26, 2021, 05:16:44 AM »
Wow, you've never taken apart toys as a child to figure out how they worked.  Never played with legos to build things.  I guess those are not experiments in your mind.  You've never done anything that someone didn't expressly tell you how to do.  Never learned anything that wasn't force fed to you.  Either you are the saddest person in the world, or you are full of bullshit.  I was a very inquisitive child, I had to know how things worked, so as far back as I can remember I was doing experiments, even before I knew what that word was or even how to read.  In fact I was discouraged because I would end up breaking about a third of my toys from taking them apart.  But I built a few weird things also, changing their purpose.
 
Also this isn't the claim that people are arguing against, you continue to support that you cannot get information from any other place than an expert.  That is wrong.  In your world there would be no innovation, no new anything.  We would all be waiting for that first expert, that can't be because we can't learn from other sources.  The reason so much, but NOT ALL, is based off of previous knowledge is because that is the easiest path, the natural evolution of technology, not the only path though.
Weird how you still cannot be honest also.  This weird fixation with Jack is a bit creepy.

Did I design any experiments, yes, it was a part of the curriculum.  Here is the "insert effect here", design an experiment to test and verify this effect.  The grade wasn't on if you proved or disproved, it was on whether you designed the experiment in a way that mitigated external factors.  We can play this idiotic semantics game all day.  I didn't HAVE to write any books.  I have in fact wrote several technical articles on various aspects of PLC programming and communications protocols that I couldn't find out on the web. 

Also, figuring out things without instructions is kinda my everyday job.  So yeah I know a thing or two about gathering knowledge.  Is that built knowledge I already gained, yes.  Does that new knowledge REQUIRE an expert in that field to show me, no.  An almost weekly occurrence is for someone to come up to me and ask me to automate this, or design that, with no real information to speak of, and being in a facility that is the only place that does some of the things we do, there isn't a huge amount of information out there to tell me how to complete those requests. 

With your past inability to be honest when called out, and your idiotic assumptions on how knowledge can be gathered, I serious doubt you ever worked in education, at the very least you were not a teacher.  The tell is, you said you worked in education, not you were a teacher or professor.  Then tried to claim that that gave you more knowledge about the subject when you absolutely do not.  It's like saying I worked in the airline industry therefore I know everything about being a pilot, when I in fact worked as an automation engineer in a factory that made composite airplane engine parts.  True story. 
Thanks for the D-, it means nothing really but hey you tried to play act like a teacher.

I think are wandering well away from the central question.

Of course play is vitally important in a Childs development, you won't get any argument on that from me.

All your other comments are you own opinion and you are welcome to them.

I was a teacher.

The D- was a reflection of the comment you made in that it failed to prove the point you were trying to make, and in fact did the exact opposite in proving my point.

Why the obsession with me and not the point Im trying to prove? Why do 'you' people always want to drag the person into the discussion and make pretty petty and pointless judgments
Which point, I've been repeatedly addressing the same one about experts being required for knowledge gain.  You defended that idiotic statement not me.  I also pointed out your dishonesty and clear narcissistic tendencies when cornered, never once trying to be honest, just constant deflection. 
I still do not believe you were a teacher, if you did I hope it wasn't long.  You clearly do not have the intellectual honesty or emotional makeup to do it adequately.  I have many teachers in my family and even thought of following that path since I really do value teaching people, but things changed emotionally for me after some military deployments and I am not suited for the role.  The important thing being that I know I wouldn't have the patience and I see the same in you.  Hence me trying desperately to get you to see the failures I made going down this path, but you are more likely just as stubborn as I am. 
Play is a learning mechanism, curiosity is a learning mechanism, neither REQUIRE an expert.  That's just 2 broad examples of the falsehood of the statement you are so fervently defending.  I pretty much know why you are sticking to your guns, even if it is so clearly wrong.  Takes one, or rather hopefully a former one, to know one.  Narcissism can be addictive, honestly thinking you know more than anyone else around you, unable to admit failures.  I get it, I'm trying to deal with my own failures in that respect every day, do I backside, oh yeah all the time.  Not the little mean nothing remarks I make to scepti, which I hope he realizes are just for fun, the real times it happens.  As far as obsession with you, I have none, but many people tend to hate what they see in the mirror and your behavior has been reminding me of that fact.  I wanted you to realize it is better to just be honest instead of squirming around to try to find some way that you were not actually wrong.  I thought the trigger was that it was Jack disagreeing with you, and your responses and actions toward him continue to back that up pretty well. 
Again, state your position clearly, because this entire fiasco has been about knowledge requiring experts to deliver it.  Jack has quoted it many times, you have supported it many times, it is completely wrong.  Using prior knowledge is not the same and not all knowledge is based off of prior knowledge anyway.  I gave you examples with the cabin thought experiment which you glossed over and just concentrated on my use of plotting star paths.  Weird how the ancient Mayans plotted the star paths and created full predictions of star movements without some expert, or that none of their experts traveled to ancient Egypt to train those astronomers, or the ancient Celtic astronomers, or ancient Asian astronomers.  Where did those differing pathways to knowledge about the star movements come from?  I guess there was some ancient alien experts to teach them all.

You really do need a break. Why all the personal attacks?

Stick to the point.

I dont care a toss about your rather deranged sounding opinions. What you think is no more than what you think. And if I were you I’d keep what you think to yourself as you continually make yourself come over as a fool.
So Timmy, you being honest, that's just off the table then huh. 
I also asked you to clarify your point, but you can't, can you? 
So what if you think I'm deranged, the point was that I've been there and I was trying to help you.  But lash out, claim it is an personal attack, call me a fool.  It's ok, really.
But remember, you are wrong about requiring an expert to pass on knowledge.

The point is clear as Crystal and is generic.

You prove point 'P' by experiment what ever it is by using an experimental method devised by an other individual.

You are happy and accept that the method this individual has devised appears to be accurate and valid. You consider going by the results it to be an accurate and true method.

By your acceptance you have validated not only the worth of the experiment  but the thinking of the individual who devised it. By using their experiment you have considered them worthy of being an 'expert' as you have used their experiment in preference to one of you own. In other words you have considered their expertise to be of a higher order than your own.

In using this experimental method you have "taken expert assistance" in completing the experiment.

I don't see what could be clearer than that.

Im not asking you to like it, all Im saying is WHY using another devised experimental method is not the same as accepting advice? It may not be first hand but that was the whole point in the invention of books so that knowledge and advice could be past on remotely.

If Jack Black conducts an experiment that he reads up on and carries out HOW has he NOT taken advice? Please explain that.

It beggars belief as without reading about the experiment he would never have been able to do it!
Really…..what a laugh!!!

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boydster

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Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #217 on: July 26, 2021, 05:17:14 AM »
And, also you made me be on Boyd's side, I hate that very much.  Not that Boyd is inherently wrong, I just don't want to agree with him if I can help it. 

Still luv ya Boyd, just a joke.

Wrong again. Another D- for you.

I MADE you do nothing, in that it was your own free choice.

If you imagine people you have never met can MAKE you do things then you have a serious problem of personal responsibility.

Your free choice your free problem.
Nothing to do with me. I will not be your scapegoat!
Wow, you have a real problem.  It was a joke, aimed at Boyd.

Well why include me? Some back peddling going on there!

PS. Reading someone mind is not one of my skills.
It's just another shining example of the limits of your comprehension.

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Timeisup

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  • You still think that. You cannot be serious ?
Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #218 on: July 26, 2021, 05:29:25 AM »
And, also you made me be on Boyd's side, I hate that very much.  Not that Boyd is inherently wrong, I just don't want to agree with him if I can help it. 

Still luv ya Boyd, just a joke.

Wrong again. Another D- for you.

I MADE you do nothing, in that it was your own free choice.

If you imagine people you have never met can MAKE you do things then you have a serious problem of personal responsibility.

Your free choice your free problem.
Nothing to do with me. I will not be your scapegoat!
Wow, you have a real problem.  It was a joke, aimed at Boyd.

Well why include me? Some back peddling going on there!

PS. Reading someone mind is not one of my skills.
It's just another shining example of the limits of your comprehension.

Its a clear example of how off beam you are and how distanced from reality you have become.

How would you elect to PROVE rather just say that B's statement was false as you keep 'claiming"

How about some 'proof' from you for a change.
Really…..what a laugh!!!

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JackBlack

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Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #219 on: July 26, 2021, 05:56:07 AM »
There are no earth shape subject matter experts! Everyone knows the shape of the earth its no secret!
That just further dooms your position. If there are no experts then no one can know the shape of Earth if the claim you have chosen to defend is correct.

What is your position?
That has been made clear repeatedly. Why ask again when the last time you did and I provided a link to where it was first made you just dismiss it as a link that proves nothing?

Again, my position is clear, the claim Brawndo made is false.
That claim was that the only way to understand the shape of Earth is to accept what subject matter experts say Earth is.
That means no bothering with experiments or observations, just accepting what they say. They say its round, so you just accept that and that is the only way to know it is round.

I object that religious BS.
Instead I say that if that was the case, no one could ever possibly know the shape of Earth as there was a time without experts and that statement would mean no one could learn the shape of Earth as there is no expert to listen to.
I say that observations and experiments can allow one to understand that Earth is round.

no expert assistance?
...
devised by another individual?
Again, that is irrelevant, stop strawman the position just because you are wrong and need to use strawmen to pretend you aren't.

Please explain what this 'Other' is!
Again, that is quite clear in context.
On one hand you have Brando's claim that you just accept what the experts say Earth is, taking it on faith.
The OTHER is to do experiments to determine or verify the shape of Earth.

explain HOW you would verify it? You keep saying you can but never say how?
Because that is irrelevant to the logical argument I made.
All that matters for that argument is that someone knows the shape of Earth now.

You keep mentioning it, observations and experiments but never say what the hell they are, as in reality, they don't exist.
So you are now saying there are no observations or experiments that show Earth is round?

Do you see how feeble you need to pretend science and the RE position is? All for the sake of pretending you are right?

You are willing to pretend that the RE belief is a purely religious belief, not based upon observations or experiments, but based upon just accepting what an "expert" says Earth is.

PS. Reading someone mind is not one of my skills.
It appears reading isn't either.

In using this experimental method you have "taken expert assistance" in completing the experiment.
But notice that it isn't simply "expert says Earth is round, so I know Earth is round".
That is the point you keep on ignoring.

Getting knowledge on how to conduct an experiment to discover the shape of Earth is quite different to getting knowledge of the shape of Earth from that expert.

But that isn't even what you are requiring.
You are claiming we need a brand new experiment. It is quite possible for multiple people to independently come up with the same or very similar experiments.
People can come up with experiments of the past, without having heard about them, and without subject matter expert assistance in making them. But to you, that doesn't count, as it isn't new.

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NotSoSkeptical

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Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #220 on: July 26, 2021, 06:08:21 AM »
Are we sure Timeisup isn't related to Sando or Heiwa?

I thought we thoroughly debunked the idea and claim, that you can only gain knowledge through experts.
Rabinoz RIP

That would put you in the same category as pedophile perverts like John Davis, NSS, robots like Stash, Shifter, and victimized kids like Alexey.

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Timeisup

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Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #221 on: July 26, 2021, 07:46:26 AM »
The reason why there are no specific experts on that subject is because it is no longer a subject that requires a specific "expert" unless you know better.

If you think there is such a thing as you say  'earth shape subject matter experts' please name one that goes by that title.

YOU say once more:-
Again, my position is clear, the claim Brawndo made is false.
That claim was that the only way to understand the shape of Earth is to accept what subject matter experts say Earth is.
That means no bothering with experiments or observations, just accepting what they say. They say its round, so you just accept that and that is the only way to know it is round


Wowoha....thats not what Brawndo said! You added some extra bits!

That means no bothering with experiments or observations, just accepting what they say. They say its round, so you just accept that and that is the only way to know it is round

I don't recall him saying anything to do with bothering...thats your words and not his. Thats you putting words into his mouth for your own purposes.
What he actually said was:-

The only thing you could possibly do to understand the shape of the Earth is to study from the current literature on what the subject matter experts say the Earth is.

Where did he say about not bothering? Thats something you added.

I maintain he is correct. You maintain he is wrong.

I maintain the only way you could do it is by repeating a previous experiment or observation that others have devised thus you are using expert advice.

You appear not to accept that.

Remember the meaning of the word appear!

You appear to be say that repeating a previous experiment devised by A. N. Other is NOT accepting expert advice!

I dispute that, IF , its what you are saying, but as your thinking is all over the place its not always obvious what you are saying.

You say you can disprove Brawndo's statement but never say how!

No one has mentioned religion but you.

You APPEAR to think accepting scientific knowledge is akin to religious belief!
You APPEAR to be saying that unless you prove each scientific concept you come across accepting some is akin to religious belief.

Have you yourself proven every scientific concept you spout on? Have you definitively proven photons exist by your very own experiments? Everything you know has come about through expert intervention and to claim otherwise is just plain ridiculous.


You also say as a get out clause:-
Explain HOW you would verify it? You keep saying you can but never say how?

Because that is irrelevant to the logical argument I made.
All that matters for that argument is that someone knows the shape of Earth now.


Evasion and a refusal to prove the very point your argument rests on.

There is no way for you disprove what Brandow said. You say you can but refuse to say how, you claiming it's irrelevant. How convenient.

You also say:-
Quote from: Timeisup on Today at 04:57:45 AM
You keep mentioning it, observations and experiments but never say what the hell they are, as in reality, they don't exist.
So you are now saying there are no observations or experiments that show Earth is round?

Do you see how feeble you need to pretend science and the RE position is? All for the sake of pretending you are right?

You are willing to pretend that the RE belief is a purely religious belief, not based upon observations or experiments, but based upon just accepting what an "expert" says Earth is


Are you for real. I said YOU have NONE of YOUR own experiments or observations that YOU can do that are of YOUR own devising. Do try and keep up.
AS for the rest of  what you say , if it were the other way around you would be screaming liar...... I never once said  RE belief is purely a religious belief how can it be a belief when it is a fact!


You also say:-
In using this experimental method you have "taken expert assistance" in completing the experiment.

But notice that it isn't simply "expert says Earth is round, so I know Earth is round".
That is the point you keep on ignoring.


The point that you are failing to understand is the experts experiment has already proved the spherical earth, all you are doing accepting his experiment is accurate, by doing it and following their instructions. Which is exactly what Brandon said. You in doing and confirming the experiment from the outset accepted that the expert was indeed correct.

AS Ive been saying from the outset and why you keep avoiding it is....the ONLY way you could prove Brawndo is wrong, and it is conceivable it could be done is to come up with a new set of experiments and observations that have never been carried out before. Why anyone would wish to do that is another matter.


« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 07:54:19 AM by Timeisup »
Really…..what a laugh!!!

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Mikey T.

  • 3545
Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #222 on: July 26, 2021, 08:28:16 AM »
So you no longer believe experts are required?  Is that what you are saying?
Say it thusly, you were wrong.  It's ok to admit you were wrong. 
BTW, when I clearly stated it was just a joke,  within the joke is pretty clear to most people that it was a joke, no mind reading necessary, just reading comprehension is needed.  I still do not believe you were a teacher, reading comprehension being a pretty important part, along with honesty and emotional stability.

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Mikey T.

  • 3545
Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #223 on: July 26, 2021, 08:36:24 AM »
Are we sure Timeisup isn't related to Sando or Heiwa?

I thought we thoroughly debunked the idea and claim, that you can only gain knowledge through experts.
I'm fairly convinced he is an alt of an FE troll.  Just playing the other side.  Notice how he just says things, never properly explaining them.  Remains vague, being dishonest, playing the semantics game, never wanting to admit he may be wrong, just trying to strawman and change what was said, personal attacks(this one is a guilty pleasure of my own sometimes), basically a pigeon on the chessboard shitting everywhere and claiming victory. 

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Timeisup

  • 3554
  • You still think that. You cannot be serious ?
Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #224 on: July 26, 2021, 09:08:55 AM »
So you no longer believe experts are required?  Is that what you are saying?
Say it thusly, you were wrong.  It's ok to admit you were wrong. 
BTW, when I clearly stated it was just a joke,  within the joke is pretty clear to most people that it was a joke, no mind reading necessary, just reading comprehension is needed.  I still do not believe you were a teacher, reading comprehension being a pretty important part, along with honesty and emotional stability.

I take it this is just another joke!
Really…..what a laugh!!!

Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #225 on: July 26, 2021, 11:18:48 AM »
Ill have to read thru all this. I stand by my statement. An everyday person can only get the definitive shape of the Earth from an expert. Not doing experiments and drawing conclusions. Simple single definitive evidence would be any picture from space. Acquired from experts obviously. Or from expert in the field who has already coalesced the information to definitely say "yes" the earth is a sphere I know how much people here like authority.  Either way its from an expert. Average Joe is not going to sail the ocean, put sticks in the ground to measure sun angles across the globe, or measure Earths gravitational constant. Hell he won't even look at the moon and planets thru a telescope. He isn't going to board a flight with Branson or Bezos. He isn't going to interpret satellite telemetry signals, or even view the ISS from the ground. He has to rely on an expert. I wish more people had the ability to do experiments and correctly interpret data. Thats all part of being a scientist and its a great career.

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Mikey T.

  • 3545
Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #226 on: July 26, 2021, 11:32:32 AM »
So you no longer believe experts are required?  Is that what you are saying?
Say it thusly, you were wrong.  It's ok to admit you were wrong. 
BTW, when I clearly stated it was just a joke,  within the joke is pretty clear to most people that it was a joke, no mind reading necessary, just reading comprehension is needed.  I still do not believe you were a teacher, reading comprehension being a pretty important part, along with honesty and emotional stability.

I take it this is just another joke!
For your limited reading comprehension I have decided to add "this is a joke" for all included jokes.  So since this policy was not made available to you prior to this post I will clarify.  No that post was not a joke.  For future instances of jokes that you won't get, I will make sure to include the warning label for your benefit.  At least until your rage subsides and your brain can again comprehend words and sentences.

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Mikey T.

  • 3545
Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #227 on: July 26, 2021, 12:00:31 PM »
Ill have to read thru all this. I stand by my statement. An everyday person can only get the definitive shape of the Earth from an expert. Not doing experiments and drawing conclusions. Simple single definitive evidence would be any picture from space. Acquired from experts obviously. Or from expert in the field who has already coalesced the information to definitely say "yes" the earth is a sphere I know how much people here like authority.  Either way its from an expert. Average Joe is not going to sail the ocean, put sticks in the ground to measure sun angles across the globe, or measure Earths gravitational constant. Hell he won't even look at the moon and planets thru a telescope. He isn't going to board a flight with Branson or Bezos. He isn't going to interpret satellite telemetry signals, or even view the ISS from the ground. He has to rely on an expert. I wish more people had the ability to do experiments and correctly interpret data. Thats all part of being a scientist and its a great career.
You have a very low opinion of what the average Joe would do.  People buy small telescopes all the time.  Human curiosity is a thing.  Also depending on what that average Joe does for a living, they may rely on things like orbiting satellites to perform their everyday tasks.  Like the humble TV dish installer who may, actually in alot of cases from my experience in that field formerly, want to learn about where those satellites are to better judge whether their customers will have a trouble free time.  It isn't a long jump to use that to get a sense of the shape if the Earth since, well that system simply wouldn't work if there is nothing orbiting the Earth. 
Or for someone to experience a sunset and actually question where the Sun "goes".  They may not be able to write a scientific paper on the subject, but they can certainly gather enough knowledge to get a beyond reasonable doubt idea of the shape of the Earth.  Especially if you can communicate with other people easily at other locations on Earth to compare notes.  Understand that simply using technology isn't the same as requiring an expert to tell you how it is.

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JJA

  • 6869
  • Math is math!
Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #228 on: July 26, 2021, 12:35:12 PM »
Average Joe is not going to sail the ocean, put sticks in the ground to measure sun angles across the globe, or measure Earths gravitational constant. Hell he won't even look at the moon and planets thru a telescope.

There is a huge difference between saying the average Joe won't do something and that he can't do something.

Measuring the Suns angle, determining the gravitational constant, looking through a telescope, all these things are certainly possible for the average Joe. They just have to want to do them, or given the opportunity. I've shown plenty of average Joes the wonders of the universe.

I think it's more than plausible to do enough experiments, by ones own hand to determine the shape of the Earth.

But I'm not sure you can really answer the question in the subject, as everyone is going to disagree on what constitutes definitive evidence.

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boydster

  • Assistant to the Regional Manager
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  • 17754
Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #229 on: July 26, 2021, 12:41:15 PM »
Average Joe is not going to sail the ocean, put sticks in the ground to measure sun angles across the globe, or measure Earths gravitational constant. Hell he won't even look at the moon and planets thru a telescope. He isn't going to board a flight with Branson or Bezos. He isn't going to interpret satellite telemetry signals, or even view the ISS from the ground. He has to rely on an expert.
You're saying people won't do those things, and yet they do (very few, in the case of riding in an actual rocket, but the rest are more common among amateur enthusiasts). And more importantly: they CAN do those things. And that's really the important thing here that's getting overlooked by you and Tim. It's absolutely possible for someone to discern the shape of the Earth without appealing to an expert - one of the hallmarks of science is how open source it is, in that it is fairly easy to review how others have approached trying to solve and problem and recreate those same steps independently or devise a better way if you can think of one. It's also easier to just ask someone you consider to be an authority on the matter and take their answer at face value. Even more importantly though, it's possible to get an answer from an authority and then, independently, think of ways to test the answer you were given and decide if you feel it is accurate and/or complete, without taking any further advice from that same authority, and arrive at the same conclusion, you've just independently verified something.

I'm not saying you should start construction on your own personal LHC in your back yard to start looking for the Higgs particle or anything like that. But going sailing is a hobby lots of people take up. Looking through telescopes, even more so. The sticks in the ground experiment is laughably easy in today's age where you can Facetime with someone in a completely different geographical region and see instantly how the shadows are different - this might be a great thing to start having kids do in school, frankly. I'm pretty sure Ham radio enthusiasts have bounced signal off the moon before and measured how long it takes the signal to make a round trip - try that with the sun, and you'll discovery pretty quickly that the moon and the sun are not, in fact, the same distance away from the Earth

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Timeisup

  • 3554
  • You still think that. You cannot be serious ?
Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #230 on: July 26, 2021, 01:42:34 PM »
Average Joe is not going to sail the ocean, put sticks in the ground to measure sun angles across the globe, or measure Earths gravitational constant. Hell he won't even look at the moon and planets thru a telescope.

There is a huge difference between saying the average Joe won't do something and that he can't do something.

Measuring the Suns angle, determining the gravitational constant, looking through a telescope, all these things are certainly possible for the average Joe. They just have to want to do them, or given the opportunity. I've shown plenty of average Joes the wonders of the universe.

I think it's more than plausible to do enough experiments, by ones own hand to determine the shape of the Earth.

But I'm not sure you can really answer the question in the subject, as everyone is going to disagree on what constitutes definitive evidence.

Say you were serious about doing some experiments or an experiment, exactly how would you go about determining which was the best to do?
Really…..what a laugh!!!

*

Timeisup

  • 3554
  • You still think that. You cannot be serious ?
Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #231 on: July 26, 2021, 01:45:38 PM »
Average Joe is not going to sail the ocean, put sticks in the ground to measure sun angles across the globe, or measure Earths gravitational constant. Hell he won't even look at the moon and planets thru a telescope. He isn't going to board a flight with Branson or Bezos. He isn't going to interpret satellite telemetry signals, or even view the ISS from the ground. He has to rely on an expert.
You're saying people won't do those things, and yet they do (very few, in the case of riding in an actual rocket, but the rest are more common among amateur enthusiasts). And more importantly: they CAN do those things. And that's really the important thing here that's getting overlooked by you and Tim. It's absolutely possible for someone to discern the shape of the Earth without appealing to an expert - one of the hallmarks of science is how open source it is, in that it is fairly easy to review how others have approached trying to solve and problem and recreate those same steps independently or devise a better way if you can think of one. It's also easier to just ask someone you consider to be an authority on the matter and take their answer at face value. Even more importantly though, it's possible to get an answer from an authority and then, independently, think of ways to test the answer you were given and decide if you feel it is accurate and/or complete, without taking any further advice from that same authority, and arrive at the same conclusion, you've just independently verified something.

I'm not saying you should start construction on your own personal LHC in your back yard to start looking for the Higgs particle or anything like that. But going sailing is a hobby lots of people take up. Looking through telescopes, even more so. The sticks in the ground experiment is laughably easy in today's age where you can Facetime with someone in a completely different geographical region and see instantly how the shadows are different - this might be a great thing to start having kids do in school, frankly. I'm pretty sure Ham radio enthusiasts have bounced signal off the moon before and measured how long it takes the signal to make a round trip - try that with the sun, and you'll discovery pretty quickly that the moon and the sun are not, in fact, the same distance away from the Earth

Where would the folk get the instructions to do the stick in the ground experiment?  In all honesty how did you find out about it? Were you born with the knowledge, did it come in a flash of inspiration or like everyone else did you read about it?
Really…..what a laugh!!!

*

Mikey T.

  • 3545
Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #232 on: July 26, 2021, 01:48:17 PM »
Average Joe is not going to sail the ocean, put sticks in the ground to measure sun angles across the globe, or measure Earths gravitational constant. Hell he won't even look at the moon and planets thru a telescope.

There is a huge difference between saying the average Joe won't do something and that he can't do something.

Measuring the Suns angle, determining the gravitational constant, looking through a telescope, all these things are certainly possible for the average Joe. They just have to want to do them, or given the opportunity. I've shown plenty of average Joes the wonders of the universe.

I think it's more than plausible to do enough experiments, by ones own hand to determine the shape of the Earth.

But I'm not sure you can really answer the question in the subject, as everyone is going to disagree on what constitutes definitive evidence.

Say you were serious about doing some experiments or an experiment, exactly how would you go about determining which was the best to do?
That depends on what you are trying to determine/support, who your target audience is, your own level of understanding about the basics of said thing you are experimenting for, how comprehensive you need to make the controls, and the resources you have available.  You don't always NEED some expert to hold your hand.  It helps if you are trying to convince others that do not believe you to have some expert opinion, but it is not completely necessary. 

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Mikey T.

  • 3545
Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #233 on: July 26, 2021, 01:49:51 PM »
Average Joe is not going to sail the ocean, put sticks in the ground to measure sun angles across the globe, or measure Earths gravitational constant. Hell he won't even look at the moon and planets thru a telescope. He isn't going to board a flight with Branson or Bezos. He isn't going to interpret satellite telemetry signals, or even view the ISS from the ground. He has to rely on an expert.
You're saying people won't do those things, and yet they do (very few, in the case of riding in an actual rocket, but the rest are more common among amateur enthusiasts). And more importantly: they CAN do those things. And that's really the important thing here that's getting overlooked by you and Tim. It's absolutely possible for someone to discern the shape of the Earth without appealing to an expert - one of the hallmarks of science is how open source it is, in that it is fairly easy to review how others have approached trying to solve and problem and recreate those same steps independently or devise a better way if you can think of one. It's also easier to just ask someone you consider to be an authority on the matter and take their answer at face value. Even more importantly though, it's possible to get an answer from an authority and then, independently, think of ways to test the answer you were given and decide if you feel it is accurate and/or complete, without taking any further advice from that same authority, and arrive at the same conclusion, you've just independently verified something.

I'm not saying you should start construction on your own personal LHC in your back yard to start looking for the Higgs particle or anything like that. But going sailing is a hobby lots of people take up. Looking through telescopes, even more so. The sticks in the ground experiment is laughably easy in today's age where you can Facetime with someone in a completely different geographical region and see instantly how the shadows are different - this might be a great thing to start having kids do in school, frankly. I'm pretty sure Ham radio enthusiasts have bounced signal off the moon before and measured how long it takes the signal to make a round trip - try that with the sun, and you'll discovery pretty quickly that the moon and the sun are not, in fact, the same distance away from the Earth

Where would the folk get the instructions to do the stick in the ground experiment?  In all honesty how did you find out about it? Were you born with the knowledge, did it come in a flash of inspiration or like everyone else did you read about it?
Where did Eratosthenes get the instructions from?

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boydster

  • Assistant to the Regional Manager
  • Planar Moderator
  • 17754
Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #234 on: July 26, 2021, 01:53:53 PM »
Average Joe is not going to sail the ocean, put sticks in the ground to measure sun angles across the globe, or measure Earths gravitational constant. Hell he won't even look at the moon and planets thru a telescope. He isn't going to board a flight with Branson or Bezos. He isn't going to interpret satellite telemetry signals, or even view the ISS from the ground. He has to rely on an expert.
You're saying people won't do those things, and yet they do (very few, in the case of riding in an actual rocket, but the rest are more common among amateur enthusiasts). And more importantly: they CAN do those things. And that's really the important thing here that's getting overlooked by you and Tim. It's absolutely possible for someone to discern the shape of the Earth without appealing to an expert - one of the hallmarks of science is how open source it is, in that it is fairly easy to review how others have approached trying to solve and problem and recreate those same steps independently or devise a better way if you can think of one. It's also easier to just ask someone you consider to be an authority on the matter and take their answer at face value. Even more importantly though, it's possible to get an answer from an authority and then, independently, think of ways to test the answer you were given and decide if you feel it is accurate and/or complete, without taking any further advice from that same authority, and arrive at the same conclusion, you've just independently verified something.

I'm not saying you should start construction on your own personal LHC in your back yard to start looking for the Higgs particle or anything like that. But going sailing is a hobby lots of people take up. Looking through telescopes, even more so. The sticks in the ground experiment is laughably easy in today's age where you can Facetime with someone in a completely different geographical region and see instantly how the shadows are different - this might be a great thing to start having kids do in school, frankly. I'm pretty sure Ham radio enthusiasts have bounced signal off the moon before and measured how long it takes the signal to make a round trip - try that with the sun, and you'll discovery pretty quickly that the moon and the sun are not, in fact, the same distance away from the Earth

Where would the folk get the instructions to do the stick in the ground experiment?  In all honesty how did you find out about it? Were you born with the knowledge, did it come in a flash of inspiration or like everyone else did you read about it?
Where did Eratosthenes get the instructions from?
Yuri Gagarin, I guess ???

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Mikey T.

  • 3545
Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #235 on: July 26, 2021, 01:57:59 PM »
Just a little info for a curious mind.  Calculus was invented by two people without communications between them at pretty much the same time.  There were some minor differences in method and of course notation but the end result was very similar.  They were trying to answer some questions that trigonometry itself couldn't answer.  No experts in calculus existed prior to that point.  Newton and Leibniz.

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Timeisup

  • 3554
  • You still think that. You cannot be serious ?
Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #236 on: July 26, 2021, 02:00:08 PM »
Of course we can all do the sticks in the ground experiment. Unfortunately it was done a long long time ago by another dude who had no other option being short of live streams from space, or a seat up to the ISS.

In reality the only place where this is an issue is here or the other place that no one mentions. Most ordinary folk take most scientific knowledge  for granted as they have more important things to think about and do. In reality we put our trust in experts all the time. Those who are parents would have put the lives of their children in the hands of experts when their children were delivered. We do it all the time, trust. For some it appears to be a dirty word. Why? Whats the problem with trusting experts who have an area of knowledge outwith your own?

The other question that really needs to be asked is the one about the acquisition of knowledge along with its ratification.

Are there people here who have absorbed all their knowledge through an appendage or did they like everyone else read about it or were taught it?

I find it incredulous that some people appear to give the impression that they have discovered it!

Are we supposed to take seriously the idea that some people on this site verify ALL the scientific theories the come across OR do we take it on trust that:-
Gravitational waves exist
Photons exist
Exoplanets exist
etc etc......
Really…..what a laugh!!!

*

Timeisup

  • 3554
  • You still think that. You cannot be serious ?
Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #237 on: July 26, 2021, 02:01:04 PM »
Average Joe is not going to sail the ocean, put sticks in the ground to measure sun angles across the globe, or measure Earths gravitational constant. Hell he won't even look at the moon and planets thru a telescope. He isn't going to board a flight with Branson or Bezos. He isn't going to interpret satellite telemetry signals, or even view the ISS from the ground. He has to rely on an expert.
You're saying people won't do those things, and yet they do (very few, in the case of riding in an actual rocket, but the rest are more common among amateur enthusiasts). And more importantly: they CAN do those things. And that's really the important thing here that's getting overlooked by you and Tim. It's absolutely possible for someone to discern the shape of the Earth without appealing to an expert - one of the hallmarks of science is how open source it is, in that it is fairly easy to review how others have approached trying to solve and problem and recreate those same steps independently or devise a better way if you can think of one. It's also easier to just ask someone you consider to be an authority on the matter and take their answer at face value. Even more importantly though, it's possible to get an answer from an authority and then, independently, think of ways to test the answer you were given and decide if you feel it is accurate and/or complete, without taking any further advice from that same authority, and arrive at the same conclusion, you've just independently verified something.

I'm not saying you should start construction on your own personal LHC in your back yard to start looking for the Higgs particle or anything like that. But going sailing is a hobby lots of people take up. Looking through telescopes, even more so. The sticks in the ground experiment is laughably easy in today's age where you can Facetime with someone in a completely different geographical region and see instantly how the shadows are different - this might be a great thing to start having kids do in school, frankly. I'm pretty sure Ham radio enthusiasts have bounced signal off the moon before and measured how long it takes the signal to make a round trip - try that with the sun, and you'll discovery pretty quickly that the moon and the sun are not, in fact, the same distance away from the Earth

Where would the folk get the instructions to do the stick in the ground experiment?  In all honesty how did you find out about it? Were you born with the knowledge, did it come in a flash of inspiration or like everyone else did you read about it?
Where did Eratosthenes get the instructions from?

Why don't you ask him. I have his telephone number.
Really…..what a laugh!!!

*

Timeisup

  • 3554
  • You still think that. You cannot be serious ?
Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #238 on: July 26, 2021, 02:12:14 PM »
Just a little info for a curious mind.  Calculus was invented by two people without communications between them at pretty much the same time.  There were some minor differences in method and of course notation but the end result was very similar.  They were trying to answer some questions that trigonometry itself couldn't answer.  No experts in calculus existed prior to that point.  Newton and Leibniz.

You give the impression that it appeared magically out of thin air which was certainly not the case. If you look at the history of mathematics and calculus in particular you will see that there was hundreds of years of groundwork from hundreds of mathematicians before its eventual discovery, which was why it was discovered around about the same time as all the clues were there. All it took was couple of extremely clever mathematicians to use the same clues to make the last few steps.

What is interesting is the HOW. Both Newton and Leibniz most likely had similar source materials to work from, better known as books written by earlier experts in mathematics. Incremental discovery. For example  Arab mathematician Ibn al-Haytham derived a formula for the sum of fourth powers. He used the results to carry out what would now be called an integration. That was in the C11th over 500 years before calculus was 'discovered'

In other words a great example of how experts learn from earlier experts. Discoveries are not made in a vacuum.

Here is a list of some of the books Newton had for bedtime reading:-
http://www.newtonproject.ox.ac.uk/his-library/books-in-newtons-library
« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 02:14:21 PM by Timeisup »
Really…..what a laugh!!!

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boydster

  • Assistant to the Regional Manager
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  • 17754
Re: Is it even possible for everyday person to get definitive evidence...
« Reply #239 on: July 26, 2021, 02:14:07 PM »
Of course we can all do the sticks in the ground experiment. Unfortunately it was done a long long time ago by another dude who had no other option being short of live streams from space, or a seat up to the ISS.

In reality the only place where this is an issue is here or the other place that no one mentions. Most ordinary folk take most scientific knowledge  for granted as they have more important things to think about and do. In reality we put our trust in experts all the time. Those who are parents would have put the lives of their children in the hands of experts when their children were delivered. We do it all the time, trust. For some it appears to be a dirty word. Why? Whats the problem with trusting experts who have an area of knowledge outwith your own?

The other question that really needs to be asked is the one about the acquisition of knowledge along with its ratification.

Are there people here who have absorbed all their knowledge through an appendage or did they like everyone else read about it or were taught it?

I find it incredulous that some people appear to give the impression that they have discovered it!

Are we supposed to take seriously the idea that some people on this site verify ALL the scientific theories the come across OR do we take it on trust that:-
Gravitational waves exist
Photons exist
Exoplanets exist
etc etc......
Another reframe. Classic. Don't you get tired of doing this? At this point you've made it abundantly clear that you don't intend to have an honest conversation with anyone, and you've dropped some serious hints that you are actually incapable of doing so even if you intended to.