If earth is round......

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lonely toast

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If earth is round......
« on: May 10, 2021, 02:30:19 PM »
Then you by does it look flat?
I see no curvature at all.
So round earthers tell me where the curve is at.
Why not by.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2021, 02:36:16 PM by Nostradamus »
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Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2021, 03:40:36 PM »
At the small scale, it looks rather irregular.

Before you start asking if you can see curvature or not you need to understand how that would appear.
If you want to see the RE as a circle, you need to look down towards it, where you have the horizon as the same angle of dip all around. You then need to be far enough back for all of Earth to fit in your field of view.
Because of how close you are to Earth, you will not see the curvature like that.
It would be like trying to look at a basketball, with your eye basically touching the ball.

If you want to see the circle of Earth, your best option is to look at the shadow of Earth on the moon during a lunar eclipse. But you can't see it all at once. The other option if you aren't paranoid is to use the plentiful photos from Earth.

Otherwise, you can see the curvature by looking at the horizon. The fact there is a horizon is a result of curvature. The fact that objects appear lower as they go over the horizon, with the bottom being obscured is a result of curvature.
In some causes, like the powerlines over Lake Pontchartrain, the curve is visible in objects in a line:

You can see how the towers follow the curve of Earth, appearing lower as they go into the distance, rather than just shrinking to a point as expected for a FE.

Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2021, 06:05:39 PM »

You were doing good there until you mentioned "If the earth were flat, the vanishing point should intersect the horizon".  Because, if the earth were flat, there would be no horizon.

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markjo

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Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2021, 07:36:11 PM »
You were doing good there until you mentioned "If the earth were flat, the vanishing point should intersect the horizon".  Because, if the earth were flat, there would be no horizon.
Incorrect.  The horizon is defined as where the sky appears to meet the earth (regardless of its shape).
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Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2021, 03:11:40 AM »

You were doing good there until you mentioned "If the earth were flat, the vanishing point should intersect the horizon".  Because, if the earth were flat, there would be no horizon.
I just used the image, I didn't make it.

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Tom Bishop

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Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2021, 05:06:17 AM »
That same photographer posted a timelapse video from that area showing that light bends upwards and downwards throughout the day.

https://wiki.tfes.org/Sinking_Ship_Effect_Caused_by_Refraction


Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2021, 02:53:51 PM »
That same photographer posted a timelapse video from that area showing that light bends upwards and downwards throughout the day.
I take it you missed the part where the "horizon" moved with it?

And the part where in this case the horizon is clearly below, the "vanishing point" showing that is clearly not what is happening here?

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MidnightWolf9908

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Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2021, 03:42:35 PM »
Then you by does it look flat?
I see no curvature at all.
So round earthers tell me where the curve is at.
Why not by.

You are judging by looking at the horizon at close to sea level. The curvature does not start to become really noticeable until around 50,000 feet high. Planes only fly at a height of just under 35,000 feet.
https://simpleflying.com/concorde-earth-curvature/
Where do I put the signature?

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MidnightWolf9908

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Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2021, 06:18:55 PM »
Then you by does it look flat?
I see no curvature at all.
So round earthers tell me where the curve is at.
Why not by.

The curve is not visible at sea level. You have to go up quite a ways. The Earth is not that tiny, you know!
Where do I put the signature?

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sceptimatic

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Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2021, 12:40:23 AM »

You were doing good there until you mentioned "If the earth were flat, the vanishing point should intersect the horizon".  Because, if the earth were flat, there would be no horizon.
I just used the image, I didn't make it.
Are there any pictures of that very same distance and amount of pylons, looking at them from a side view?
You know, a view from distance in between the centre of those pylons rather than just looking along them to see a supposed curve?

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JJA

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Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2021, 04:07:34 AM »
Are there any pictures of that very same distance and amount of pylons, looking at them from a side view?
You know, a view from distance in between the centre of those pylons rather than just looking along them to see a supposed curve?

A little bit of math would tell you exactly how much curve you could expect to see from a side on picture, did you calculate the expected curve so you have all the information needed to judge the picture you are demanding we produce.

Why don't you tell us all how much curve you are expecting to see from a side view. Even better, why not render a view of what it should look like, so when you are provided with a picture you can compare it.

How much curve should we see? One degree? Ten degrees? From how far? What altitude?

Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2021, 02:00:49 PM »
Are there any pictures of that very same distance and amount of pylons, looking at them from a side view?
You know, a view from distance in between the centre of those pylons rather than just looking along them to see a supposed curve?
Do you mean zoomed out far enough to be able to see all along the line, at which point you wouldn't be able to resolve the individual pylons and the curvature would likely be less than a pixel; or do you mean zoomed in enough to clearly resolve a pylon, at which point you would have such a small view the curvature would be less than a pixel?

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sceptimatic

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Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2021, 11:56:25 PM »
Are there any pictures of that very same distance and amount of pylons, looking at them from a side view?
You know, a view from distance in between the centre of those pylons rather than just looking along them to see a supposed curve?

A little bit of math would tell you exactly how much curve you could expect to see from a side on picture, did you calculate the expected curve so you have all the information needed to judge the picture you are demanding we produce.

Why don't you tell us all how much curve you are expecting to see from a side view. Even better, why not render a view of what it should look like, so when you are provided with a picture you can compare it.

How much curve should we see? One degree? Ten degrees? From how far? What altitude?
Forget the math. You people show these pylons almost head on over a short distance and push the curve for that short distance, so don't be coming the old "do the math" codswallop.


If that supposed curve is as severe as shown then side on at a fair distance would show it up like a curve....yet we know it won't because  the Earth is not a globe we walk upon or sail upon or fly over.

If those pylons show a level line from a sideways view then that's what they are.

Trying to pass them off as curving down and away from a shore type of view is a joke and you know it.

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sceptimatic

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Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2021, 11:58:11 PM »
Are there any pictures of that very same distance and amount of pylons, looking at them from a side view?
You know, a view from distance in between the centre of those pylons rather than just looking along them to see a supposed curve?
Do you mean zoomed out far enough to be able to see all along the line, at which point you wouldn't be able to resolve the individual pylons and the curvature would likely be less than a pixel; or do you mean zoomed in enough to clearly resolve a pylon, at which point you would have such a small view the curvature would be less than a pixel?
Nahhh, you know what I mean.

Just those pylons that we see in the picture.
The same distance but to the left at a distance.

You know fine well what I'm saying.

Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2021, 12:48:15 AM »
Forget the math.
Of course you want to forget the math. You want to hide it all the time considering how often it so easily demonstrates your claims are pure garbage.
If you actually had reality backing you up, you would want to use the math, as it would then support you.

If that supposed curve is as severe as shown then side on at a fair distance would show it up like a curve
Like the photos from space which you dismiss as fake?

yet we know it won't because  the Earth is not a globe we walk upon or sail upon or fly over.
You mean you will dismiss anything that shows it as fake as you falsely believe that Earth is not a globe, even though all the available evidence which can determine the shape of Earth shows it is a globe and none shows it isn't, and you are entirely incapable of justifying your irrational attacks against the globe.
Rather than focusing on other photos, why not focus on this one?

If those pylons show a level line from a sideways view then that's what they are.
Which requires you to be able to show that it doesn't curve within the level of uncertainty. If you are unable to distinguish between it curving as per the RE model and it being flat, the photo would be entirely useless.

Do you mean zoomed out far enough to be able to see all along the line, at which point you wouldn't be able to resolve the individual pylons and the curvature would likely be less than a pixel; or do you mean zoomed in enough to clearly resolve a pylon, at which point you would have such a small view the curvature would be less than a pixel?
Nahhh, you know what I mean.
Yes, I know what you mean, some picture which cannot see the curve because it is not accurate enough to be able to do so, so you can dishonestly pretend that Earth doesn't curve.

If you were honest you would recognise the limitations and not ask for such an image.

Considering you hate the math so much, here is some for you:
I don't know just how far the distance is in that image, but the entire lake is ~25 km along those towers.
So if you had the camera centred in the middle, the distance to the edge would be ~12.5 km, making the drop ~0.0123 km or 12.3 m.
If you want that 12.3 m to be a single pixel, you would need the image to be over 2000 px wide.
But that would be quite hard to line up, and 1 px difference would easily be dismissed as noise or the like, especially given that the horizon typically spans a few px in most images.
So to make it accurate you would need an image closer to 20 000 px wide.

And you would need to make sure the picture is taken from an elevated vantage point so it isn't simply looking at a much closer horizon.

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sceptimatic

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Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2021, 12:56:35 AM »
Of course you want to forget the math. You want to hide it all the time considering how often it so easily demonstrates your claims are pure garbage.
If you actually had reality backing you up, you would want to use the math, as it would then support you.

You aren't using any math for the argument of the pylons supposedly curving up and over and away from the vantage point but want to argue it because I mentioned showing it from a left to right similar distant view.


You see, it won't show curve in that situation because it's level.

You need no math for visual in this case.


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sceptimatic

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Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2021, 01:09:56 AM »

Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2021, 02:11:59 AM »
You aren't using any math for the argument of the pylons supposedly curving up and over and away from the vantage point but want to argue it because I mentioned showing it from a left to right similar distant view.
No, I'm not using math for the argument that it is curving down, as it is clear to see.
If you wish to claim something else causes that go ahead. Even feel free to provide the math to support that.

But if you want to claim that you should easily see the curve when viewed from the side, that is where math becomes important.

This is because you need to be able to tell if there is a curve that you cannot detect due to the large uncertainty.

Any time you want to claim Earth is flat based upon an observation, you need to show that this observations is actually capable of detecting the curve. If the uncertainty is too large to detect the curve, then you wont detect it and your test is useless.

You never want to do the math in cases like this as it shows your "test" is useless and incapable of detecting the curve.
If it wouldn't show the curve because Earth is magically flat, then the photo already provided wouldn't show the curve.

Here, have a look at this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=d3_umFGu_gc&feature=youtu.be
With significant atmospheric distortion, which makes it hard to see any potential curve?
What's the point?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2021, 02:17:13 AM by JackBlack »

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JJA

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Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2021, 03:15:01 AM »
Are there any pictures of that very same distance and amount of pylons, looking at them from a side view?
You know, a view from distance in between the centre of those pylons rather than just looking along them to see a supposed curve?

A little bit of math would tell you exactly how much curve you could expect to see from a side on picture, did you calculate the expected curve so you have all the information needed to judge the picture you are demanding we produce.

Why don't you tell us all how much curve you are expecting to see from a side view. Even better, why not render a view of what it should look like, so when you are provided with a picture you can compare it.

How much curve should we see? One degree? Ten degrees? From how far? What altitude?
Forget the math.

I was hoping you might have actually had some good arguments this time, I see that sadly that is not the case.

This is why you are constantly being proven wrong, you call math and numbers and measurements 'gobbledygook'.

In reality, everything that comes out of your mouth is gobbledygook, as you not only can't back any of it up, you don't accept reality and only believe whatever nonsense you make up in your head. If you have to ignore MATH to make your case, you have lost it completely.

Trying to pass them off as curving down and away from a shore type of view is a joke and you know it.

The joke is you constantly claiming to know 'the truth' and can't understand that if you want to know how long an object is, you measure it. Want to know how much a circle curves? You calculate it. Instead, you just... 'know things' and simply dismiss and ignore all the evidence proving you wrong.

Since you are refusing to even accept that measuring things is a valid way to determine reality, we have nothing further to discuss on this subject and I'll let other argue pointlessly with you. Try again when you're capable of being rational and able to properly debate, I can see you're still not ready yet.

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sceptimatic

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Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2021, 04:50:25 AM »
You aren't using any math for the argument of the pylons supposedly curving up and over and away from the vantage point but want to argue it because I mentioned showing it from a left to right similar distant view.
No, I'm not using math for the argument that it is curving down, as it is clear to see.
If you wish to claim something else causes that go ahead. Even feel free to provide the math to support that.

But if you want to claim that you should easily see the curve when viewed from the side, that is where math becomes important.

This is because you need to be able to tell if there is a curve that you cannot detect due to the large uncertainty.

Any time you want to claim Earth is flat based upon an observation, you need to show that this observations is actually capable of detecting the curve. If the uncertainty is too large to detect the curve, then you wont detect it and your test is useless.

You never want to do the math in cases like this as it shows your "test" is useless and incapable of detecting the curve.
If it wouldn't show the curve because Earth is magically flat, then the photo already provided wouldn't show the curve.

Here, have a look at this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=d3_umFGu_gc&feature=youtu.be
With significant atmospheric distortion, which makes it hard to see any potential curve?
What's the point?
Ahhhh, right, I see. So it's Earth curve when it suits but atmospheric distortion when it shows no curve. Ok.

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Stash

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Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2021, 08:24:49 AM »
Ahhhh, right, I see. So it's Earth curve when it suits but atmospheric distortion when it shows no curve. Ok.

Nope, actually, refraction can show all sorts of things. Inferior & Superior mirages, looming, etc. Curve, no curve, see farther than expected, can't see as far as expected. It runs the whole gamut. But your guy's video, I mean really, that was the best shot he could get?



I mean what is anyone supposed to do with that hot mess of distorted atmosphere. He does have another video of the causeway and the buildings across the the way - Clearer day, less distortion of any kind - Shows some nice curvature and the buildings obscured as expected:



Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2021, 02:39:57 PM »
Ahhhh, right, I see. So it's Earth curve when it suits but atmospheric distortion when it shows no curve. Ok.
You don't seem to see, and you seem to do it in the exact opposite way.
Anytime evidence shows a clear curve, you just dismiss it.
But if you think it supports you, you pretend that it, and your interpretation of it, is infallible.

The simple fact is that video you provided shows massive distortion. You cannot clearly see any of the towers. Instead you see a haze.
This distortion is the atmosphere bending light, quite significantly, and results in you not being able to tell if the surface is flat or curved.

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sceptimatic

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Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2021, 10:53:28 PM »
Ahhhh, right, I see. So it's Earth curve when it suits but atmospheric distortion when it shows no curve. Ok.

Nope, actually, refraction can show all sorts of things. Inferior & Superior mirages, looming, etc. Curve, no curve, see farther than expected, can't see as far as expected. It runs the whole gamut. But your guy's video, I mean really, that was the best shot he could get?



I mean what is anyone supposed to do with that hot mess of distorted atmosphere. He does have another video of the causeway and the buildings across the the way - Clearer day, less distortion of any kind - Shows some nice curvature and the buildings obscured as expected:



Look at the video.

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sceptimatic

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Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2021, 10:54:01 PM »
Ahhhh, right, I see. So it's Earth curve when it suits but atmospheric distortion when it shows no curve. Ok.
You don't seem to see, and you seem to do it in the exact opposite way.
Anytime evidence shows a clear curve, you just dismiss it.
But if you think it supports you, you pretend that it, and your interpretation of it, is infallible.

The simple fact is that video you provided shows massive distortion. You cannot clearly see any of the towers. Instead you see a haze.
This distortion is the atmosphere bending light, quite significantly, and results in you not being able to tell if the surface is flat or curved.
Look at the video.

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Stash

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Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2021, 11:27:05 PM »
Look at the video.

I did. What about it?

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sceptimatic

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Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2021, 11:39:49 PM »
Look at the video.

I did. What about it?
It shows that your curved pylons are not curved at all.

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Stash

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Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #26 on: June 14, 2021, 12:11:02 AM »
Look at the video.

I did. What about it?
It shows that your curved pylons are not curved at all.

You mean this:



I'm not sure what that shows me other than a tremendous amount of atmospheric effects. Like I wrote earlier, the presence of which can show too much curvature or not enough or anywhere inbetween. Nice clear non-hazy images is what we're after. Dig a little deeper.

Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2021, 12:33:47 AM »
Look at the video.
I have. I have also explained why it does not support a FE over a RE.
So how about you go and take a look at the previous picture and deal with that.

It shows that your curved pylons are not curved at all.
You stating this, after it has already been explained why that is not the case, shows you do not care about the truth at all.

With the significant distortion visible in that video, it is impossible to tell if the pylons are in a straight line or not.

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sceptimatic

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Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2021, 07:10:43 AM »
Look at the video.

I did. What about it?
It shows that your curved pylons are not curved at all.

You mean this:



I'm not sure what that shows me other than a tremendous amount of atmospheric effects. Like I wrote earlier, the presence of which can show too much curvature or not enough or anywhere inbetween. Nice clear non-hazy images is what we're after. Dig a little deeper.
Look at the video, like I said.

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sceptimatic

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Re: If earth is round......
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2021, 07:12:27 AM »
Look at the video.
I have. I have also explained why it does not support a FE over a RE.
So how about you go and take a look at the previous picture and deal with that.

It shows that your curved pylons are not curved at all.
You stating this, after it has already been explained why that is not the case, shows you do not care about the truth at all.

With the significant distortion visible in that video, it is impossible to tell if the pylons are in a straight line or not.
Take a good look at the video.