Questions I have had about the Bible recently...

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FlatAssembler

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Questions I have had about the Bible recently...
« on: May 06, 2021, 01:10:13 PM »
So, I have studied the Bible a bit recently, and I posted some questions about it on various Internet forums. So, I thought I might share it with you guys...

Why does Psalm 137:4 ("How will we sing the song of the Lord in a foreign land?") mean? Was there some common superstition back then that religious songs must not be sung in a foreign land? How does that make any sense? The most sensible answer I received is that "song of the Lord" is supposed to be a joyous song, and that it is inappropriate to sing it while in exile.

In Vulgate in Matthew 2:23, it says "Et veniens habitavit in civitate quć vocatur Nazareth". Why is it "civitate" (ablative) and not "civitatem" (accusative)? He came INTO Nazareth, so it should be an accusative, right? Well, it is a detail of Latin grammar.

In Vulgate, Matthaeus 4:23, it says "et prćdicans Evangelium regni". Shouldn't it be "regno" (dative) rather than "regni" (genitive)? He was talking the gospel TO the kingdom. I also asked that on StackExchange. Basically, the "regni" here is "kingdom of Heaven", not Israel.

In Matthew 27, why does Vulgate call the graves of people who rose from the dead along with Jesus "monumentum", while calling Jesus'es grave "sepulchrum"? The answers I received on Quora were invariably trying to deny Matthew 27 actually says that Jesus was not the only person who rose from the dead that day, which is nonsense. So, I asked that question on StackExchange as well. The answer I got there is basically that it is a very literate (morpheme-by-morpheme) translation from Greek.

In Judith in Vulgate, why does Jerome transliterate the name "Arphaxad" with 'ph', but he transliterates "Holofernes" with an 'f'? Both were the same sound, right? Well, Nick Nicholas, a Quora user who seems to know a lot about Greek and Latin, said the following:
This is a very good question, and a quarter hour googling did not give me an answer. And as with a lot of religion-related questions on Quora, you’ve gotten non-answers to date here.
(...)
What I think happened, based on the above, is: Jerome was a conscientious scholar, who stuck with existing, Greek-based transcription norms for Hebrew, and maintained consistency in his translation. So even though he translated Arphaxad from the Hebrew <’Arpaḵšad> in Genesis, and from the Greek <Arphaxad> in Judith, he kept them both consistent as <Arphaxad>.

On the other hand, when he came across <Olophernēs> in the Greek text of Judith, with no Hebrew precedent elsewhere in the Bible, he seems to have had a thinko, and transliterated it semi-phonetically from the Greek of his time. Jerome kept the hypercorrect h- of “whole-ophernes”, which Diodorus Siculus (or his scribes) had already put in—even though the /h/ was no longer pronounced in the Greek of his time either.

In Vulgate in Jacob 5:14, it says "Infirmatur quis *in vobis*?". How is that grammatical? Should not it use the partitive genitive "vestrum" instead of "in vobis"? Or at least "inter vos"? I received literally no answer neither on Quora nor on StackExchange, I do not know why.

Vulgate in Matthew 27:46 translates "Eli, Eli, lamma sabacthani ?" as "Deus meus, Deus meus, *ut quid* dereliquisti me ? ". Why does it use "ut quid" instead of the usual Latin word for "why", "cur"? Furthermore, how exactly can "ut quid" mean "why"? Some Bob Zisk says the following, which I have no idea if it is true:
Quid alone has a long history as an interrogative meaning why.
In case you do not know, quid is the usual Latin word for what. "What is your name?" was "Quid nomen tibi'st (=tibi est)?"

In Judith 8:34 in Vulgate, it says: "Et revertentes abierunt.". What could it possibly mean? "And they left while returning."? Is not that self-contradictory? Some James Hough answered this:
No, remember that Latin is NOT in the same word order as English, and that we get the meanings of words from their endings not their place in the sentence! Thus this would just be saying, “they departed to return from whence they came.”
Now, obviously, they are some far more clear ways to say "they departed to return from whence they came." in Latin, if it is even grammatically possible for "Et revertentes abierunt." to mean that. I also asked that question on StackExchange, and got similar comments.

Which language does the word "sandal" come from? I have always assumed it is a Germanic word related to "sand", as sandals are usually worn on beaches. Now I see the word is mentioned in Judith 10:3 in Vulgate: "induitque sandalia pedibus suis". Short answer is we do not know, it perhaps comes from a name of a type of tree in some Dravidian language.

In Judith 13:31 in Vulgate, it says “Benedicta tu a Deo tuo in omni tabernaculo Jacob”. Who is that Jacob and why is it in nominative and not genitive? I received literally no answer, neither on Quora nor on StackExchange.

In Judith 14:17, why did everybody strip off their clothing ("sciderunt omnes vestimenta sua") when they heard Holofernes died? Was that some kind of custom back then? If so, it was definitely a weird one. The best answer I have got is this:
You have mistranslated the word “sciderunt.” It means “they ripped”, or “they tore”, or “they rent.” It does not mean “they stripped.”
I assumed "scindo" means the same as Croatian "skinuti" (to strip). Because, you know as they say, if you do not know what some word in a foreign language means, and you cannot guess it by breaking it into parts, try guessing it based on your native language. Then I asked on Quora whether the Croatian word "skinuti" was indeed related to Latin "scindere". Some David Mandić said this:
Skinuti (imperfective skidati) means “take down/off” generally, but its original meaning was “tear off” as well (s- “off”, kidati “tear”). But I think that’s related to Engl. shoot, Ger. schießen < PIE *(s)kewd-/(s)kud-, not to Lat. scindere, Ger. scheiden.
So, apparently, this time trying to guess what the word meant based on the context and the languages I already knew led me into the wrong direction.
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Shifter

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Re: Questions I have had about the Bible recently...
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2021, 01:20:54 PM »
Are you a theologian? If not, you just read the bible. Not studied it. Studying it requires a hell of a lot of knowledge about the entire time and culture. Reading passages from a bible that have been translated umpteen times from one language to another language and then accounting for more than a millennium of language evolution (if you went back in time just a few hundred years ago you would have trouble understanding and being understood).

Keep in mind there is a lot of politics within religion. Can you trust the passages you read as true and correct or have they been 'sanitized' to suit the Church of the day. I often wonder why Jesus portrayed today is like the mist 'woke' and peace loving dude ever but if you look at the history of some of the Popes (which are the 'successor' to Jesus), some of them were simply evil incarnates


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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Questions I have had about the Bible recently...
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2021, 03:34:01 PM »
This might help you understand Psalm 137:4 https://biblehub.com/commentaries/psalms/137-4.htm

I don't know what you expect us to tell you about the Latin translations that people on Quora haven't.

It is an ancient custom to tear your clothes in grief. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327321033_Tearing_of_clothes_A_study_of_an_ancient_practice_in_the_Old_Testament

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Crouton

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Re: Questions I have had about the Bible recently...
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2021, 04:59:55 PM »
For psalms I believe it's a poetic allusion yo missionary work.

For Matthew compare it to the gospels of Mark and Luke since it's from a similar source and split the difference.

I can't tell you much about Judith since I don't know that work well.

Beating of beasts, rending of garments, weeping and gnashing of teeth were just the thing to do when you were raging back then.
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Lorddave

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Re: Questions I have had about the Bible recently...
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2021, 08:51:40 PM »
Without clicking the link or reading context, I'd assume the Psalm was asking "How do we communicate in a language we do not know.".
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Jura-Glenlivet II

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Re: Questions I have had about the Bible recently...
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2021, 12:56:17 AM »

They were in exile, slaves to the Babylonians who were saying give us one of your songs for their enjoyment.

It seems to me they thought that would be disrespectful to their roots, or uncomfortable under the circumstances given they would be judged at some point.
The writer is also contemplating the destruction of the slavers in retribution for their actions, the last line of the psalm being, Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
So, not in a happy place.
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FlatAssembler

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Re: Questions I have had about the Bible recently...
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2021, 04:50:40 AM »
Are you a theologian? If not, you just read the bible. Not studied it. Studying it requires a hell of a lot of knowledge about the entire time and culture.
And how do you come to that knowledge? By studying the Bible and what other people wrote about the Bible, right?
Theologians are not the only ones who have that knowledge, and many theologians do not actually have that knowledge.
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Re: Questions I have had about the Bible recently...
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2021, 04:58:51 AM »
and many theologians do not actually have that knowledge.
Christian theologians don't know about the bible?
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FlatAssembler

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Re: Questions I have had about the Bible recently...
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2021, 05:33:52 AM »
and many theologians do not actually have that knowledge.
Christian theologians don't know about the bible?
Christian Theology often claims to be based on the Bible, but it really is not. There is nothing about Rapture in the Bible, for example. Nor is there much about afterlife in the Bible. In fact, the Bible seems contradictory about whether there is an afterlife. Some Bible verses can be read as denying the existence of afterlife, like Ecclesiastes 9:5.
For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,

and even their name is forgotten.
What Jesus said about prayer seems to be the exact opposite of what the Catholic Church (and the vast majority of modern Christian churches) teach us. Jesus was against mass gatherings for prayer:
And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others.
Or even against long prayers, such as litanies:
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
Modern theologians generally defend litanies. And so on...
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FlatAssembler

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Re: Questions I have had about the Bible recently...
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2021, 05:36:08 AM »
This might help you understand Psalm 137:4 https://biblehub.com/commentaries/psalms/137-4.htm

I don't know what you expect us to tell you about the Latin translations that people on Quora haven't.

It is an ancient custom to tear your clothes in grief. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/327321033_Tearing_of_clothes_A_study_of_an_ancient_practice_in_the_Old_Testament
Thank you, I will look into those things!
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Shifter

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Re: Questions I have had about the Bible recently...
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2021, 05:58:11 AM »
Are you a theologian? If not, you just read the bible. Not studied it. Studying it requires a hell of a lot of knowledge about the entire time and culture.
And how do you come to that knowledge? By studying the Bible and what other people wrote about the Bible, right?
Theologians are not the only ones who have that knowledge, and many theologians do not actually have that knowledge.

It is because you can interpret the same passage so many times that reading the bible is not going to teach you much. It will give you a superficial knowledge. I can read the bible and have a different take-away than you reading the bible for example

That is why studying the bible 'on your own' usually wouldn't work. There is a lot more to study and I'd argue that to get a better understanding on the Christian bible, you'd have to read and study the Torah as well. And you might want to study under the tutelage of someone who knows how to interpret the original text as it was written as well as understanding the meaning of the words as it was meant when it was written. Not as they mean now.

But good luck in your studies if that is what you wish to devote yourself to. Better this than pondering whether the Tienanmen Square massacre actually happened or if guns even exist


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FlatAssembler

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Re: Questions I have had about the Bible recently...
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2021, 07:19:52 AM »
Quote from: Shifter
That is why studying the bible 'on your own' usually wouldn't work.
Well, many people say basically "Forget about what the Bible says, you need to obey what my interpretation of the Bible says. Which usually involves giving me a lot of money.".

When you put it that way, it sounds silly, but that is what modern denominations of Christianity are mostly about.
Quote from: Shifter
you'd have to read and study the Torah as well
Why Torah? Maybe the prophets would be useful, but Torah?
Quote from: Shifter
And you might want to study under the tutelage of someone who knows how to interpret the original text as it was written as well as understanding the meaning of the words as it was meant when it was written.
And that would not be true if the Bible was divinely inspired, as most theologians claim it is. God would not let his work be mistranslated.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 07:37:48 AM by FlatAssembler »
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Questions I have had about the Bible recently...
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2021, 07:40:13 AM »
Obviously God has looked the other way about many things.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Shifter

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Re: Questions I have had about the Bible recently...
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2021, 07:41:28 AM »
Quote from: Shifter
That is why studying the bible 'on your own' usually wouldn't work.
Well, many people say basically "Forget about what the Bible says, you need to obey what my interpretation of the Bible says. Which usually involves giving me a lot of money.". When you put it that way, it sounds silly, but that is what modern denominations of Christianity are mostly about.
Quote from: Shifter
you'd have to read and study the Torah as well
Why Torah? Maybe the prophets would be useful, but Torah?
Quote from: Shifter
And you might want to study under the tutelage of someone who knows how to interpret the original text as it was written as well as understanding the meaning of the words as it was meant when it was written.
And that would not be true if the Bible was divinely inspired, as most theologians claim it is. God would not let his work be mistranslated.

How many versions of the modern day bible are there? lol. take your pick. Each verse is just that little bit different in each one.

The Bible is a collection of stories written by man. Divinely inspired? Well maybe, but that doesn't mean that God wrote the original words, just that 'God' was the inspiration for men to write those words

You learn the Torah so you learn about the people and other faiths connected to the Abrahamic God. Whether its the Bible or the Torah, its still connected to the same people. You need to get a sense of the entire picture. Christianity and the 'Bible' is just a subset that is skewed to their favoured politics.



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FlatAssembler

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Re: Questions I have had about the Bible recently...
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2021, 08:07:44 AM »
Quote from: Shifter
You need to get a sense of the entire picture.
I think just reading the New Testament gives you enough of the insight into early Christianity. And that Gospel of Judas gives you way more insight than the Old Testament does.
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Shifter

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Re: Questions I have had about the Bible recently...
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2021, 08:11:52 AM »
Quote from: Shifter
You need to get a sense of the entire picture.
I think just reading the New Testament gives you enough of the insight into early Christianity. And that Gospel of Judas gives you way more insight than the Old Testament does.

If you want to study the bible then you should study all of it. Not cherry pick pieces you find palatable


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FlatAssembler

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Re: Questions I have had about the Bible recently...
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2021, 08:18:25 AM »
Quote from: Shifter
You need to get a sense of the entire picture.
I think just reading the New Testament gives you enough of the insight into early Christianity. And that Gospel of Judas gives you way more insight than the Old Testament does.

If you want to study the bible then you should study all of it. Not cherry pick pieces you find palatable
I guarantee you that if more people were aware of even what is written in the New Testament, far fewer people would be Christians. I mean, come on, Matthew 27:53 is literally saying countless zombies were walking around Jerusalem at the time Jesus was resurrected. And, obviously, no non-Christian scholar wrote about it.
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Shifter

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Re: Questions I have had about the Bible recently...
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2021, 08:33:43 AM »
Quote from: Shifter
You need to get a sense of the entire picture.
I think just reading the New Testament gives you enough of the insight into early Christianity. And that Gospel of Judas gives you way more insight than the Old Testament does.

If you want to study the bible then you should study all of it. Not cherry pick pieces you find palatable
I guarantee you that if more people were aware of even what is written in the New Testament, far fewer people would be Christians. I mean, come on, Matthew 27:53 is literally saying countless zombies were walking around Jerusalem at the time Jesus was resurrected. And, obviously, no non-Christian scholar wrote about it.

That's one take on it. The other take is that when he said 'holy city' he meant heaven, and not Jerusalem and that they weren't living undead zombies but his imagining the souls of the saints had ascended to Heaven.

The context was probably his own imagining. The problem is people looking at the writing that has been translated over and over for nearly 2000 years and applying contemporary culture (eg zombies) to his writing

Then you have multiple versions of the bible eg King James ordering a new translation, most likely due to politics

So when you say ' I studied the bible' you probably have to mention which of the many versions there are that you studied


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FlatAssembler

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Re: Questions I have had about the Bible recently...
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2021, 09:30:56 AM »
That's one take on it. The other take is that when he said 'holy city' he meant heaven, and not Jerusalem and that they weren't living undead zombies but his imagining the souls of the saints had ascended to Heaven.
Well, maybe "holy city" did not mean Jerusalem, but it definitely meant some place here on Earth, with many earthly people there. He said that there was an earthquake and that their graves split in that earthquake, and that they left those graves. Their graves were, obviously, here on Earth. Whether it was Jerusalem or some other city is quite a bit irrelevant, as it is hard to explain how something like that would go unwritten by non-Christian scholars.
The context was probably his own imagining. The problem is people looking at the writing that has been translated over and over for nearly 2000 years and applying contemporary culture (eg zombies) to his writing
Well, yes, he probably imagined them looking normally so that people actually recognized them. Regardless, it is hard to explain how something like that went unwritten by non-Christian sources. Like, seriously, no non-Christian saw a single one of those graves splitting up in the earthquake and a person coming out of it, and decided to write about it? No non-Christian decided to write about reports by many people (presumably mostly non-Christian) of meeting people that they knew were dead on the streets?
Then you have multiple versions of the bible eg King James ordering a new translation, most likely due to politics
It is not due to politics, it is due to modern languages changing over centuries. King James Version is barely comprehensible now. And due to our understanding of ancient languages, in which those texts were written, slightly improving over time.
So when you say ' I studied the bible' you probably have to mention which of the many versions there are that you studied
I believe it is clear from the OP that I studied the Vulgate.
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Shifter

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Re: Questions I have had about the Bible recently...
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2021, 09:46:44 AM »
That's one take on it. The other take is that when he said 'holy city' he meant heaven, and not Jerusalem and that they weren't living undead zombies but his imagining the souls of the saints had ascended to Heaven.
Well, maybe "holy city" did not mean Jerusalem, but it definitely meant some place here on Earth, with many earthly people there. He said that there was an earthquake and that their graves split in that earthquake, and that they left those graves. Their graves were, obviously, here on Earth. Whether it was Jerusalem or some other city is quite a bit irrelevant, as it is hard to explain how something like that would go unwritten by non-Christian scholars.
The context was probably his own imagining. The problem is people looking at the writing that has been translated over and over for nearly 2000 years and applying contemporary culture (eg zombies) to his writing
Well, yes, he probably imagined them looking normally so that people actually recognized them. Regardless, it is hard to explain how something like that went unwritten by non-Christian sources. Like, seriously, no non-Christian saw a single one of those graves splitting up in the earthquake and a person coming out of it, and decided to write about it? No non-Christian decided to write about reports by many people (presumably mostly non-Christian) of meeting people that they knew were dead on the streets?
Then you have multiple versions of the bible eg King James ordering a new translation, most likely due to politics
It is not due to politics, it is due to modern languages changing over centuries. King James Version is barely comprehensible now. And due to our understanding of ancient languages, in which those texts were written, slightly improving over time.
So when you say ' I studied the bible' you probably have to mention which of the many versions there are that you studied
I believe it is clear from the OP that I studied the Vulgate.

Well your problem seems to be you delve into this subject with a lot of pre conceived ideas. I'm not saying the bible is divine and true to its words but you have clearly gone in with your own opinion and cherry picking whatever suits your end argument. Dumb.

So no. You have not 'studied the bible'. You had a fleeting encounter with a select few passages. Not the same thing

Anyway, I'm done. It's boring doing this circle jerk with someone who is clearly disingenuous


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what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

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Jamie

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Re: Questions I have had about the Bible recently...
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2021, 06:01:50 AM »
Anyway, I'm done. It's boring doing this circle jerk with someone who is clearly disingenuous

I've been saying that about Heiwa...
There is a preverb in Turkish:  "Do not think everybody have beard is your grandfather".

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Shifter

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Re: Questions I have had about the Bible recently...
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2021, 06:13:09 AM »
Anyway, I'm done. It's boring doing this circle jerk with someone who is clearly disingenuous

I've been saying that about Heiwa...

Heiwa used to be fun when he would post pictures of himself (as proof he is not a bot lol) and when he would offer people to come to his office for a cup of his Nespresso coffee. But he doesn't do that anymore and he is more boring than even a bot would be


Quote from: sokarul
what website did you use to buy your wife? Did you choose Chinese over Russian because she can't open her eyes to see you?

What animal relates to your wife?

Know your place.