Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case

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Danang

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Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« on: May 02, 2021, 06:22:49 PM »
Greenwitch on longitude 0° ... Last equinox on March 20th, 2021, its solar noon occures at 12:07 PM (???)

Please tell me, what's wrong with your solar table?
And why do you keep saying "globe model works fine" ?

https://timeanddate.com/sun/uk/greenwich-city?month=3&year=2021

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Mikey T.

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Re: Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2021, 09:22:33 PM »
Greenwitch on longitude 0° ... Last equinox on March 20th, 2021, its solar noon occures at 12:07 PM (???)

Please tell me, what's wrong with your solar table?
And why do you keep saying "globe model works fine" ?

https://timeanddate.com/sun/uk/greenwich-city?month=3&year=2021


Because it does.  Your lack of understanding and intentional misrepresentations are not evidence of FE.

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JackBlack

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Re: Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2021, 02:56:29 AM »
Greenwitch on longitude 0° ... Last equinox on March 20th, 2021, its solar noon occures at 12:07 PM (???)

Please tell me, what's wrong with your solar table?
We have been over this countless times.
Time zones are not perfectly aligned. And solar noon drifts over the year, just like you would expect for the RE orbiting the sun.

If you want to compare the globe, you would do something like this:
Greenwich which is 1 arc minute west has solar noon at 12:07 GMT on March 20th
On March 21st, the next day, it is also 12:07.
This means for every 15 degrees of latitude you would expect it to shift by 1 hour. Or every degree should shift it by roughly 4 minutes.
NY is 74 degrees W. That is equivalent to almost 5 hours. 75 degrees would be 5 hours.
That means it should be 4 minutes short of 5 hours later.
And if we look we see that it was 1:03 pm, GMT-4. That means it is 5:03 pm GMT.
That is 4 minutes short of 5 hours later.

So it seems the globe works fine.

Another important thing to look at is sunrise and sunset time, where we see roughly 12 hours of daylight on the equinox, regardless of location, until you get quite close to the poles.
This is explained trivially with the RE. Care to explain it on your Fantasy Earth?

Re: Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2021, 10:11:49 AM »
Greenwitch on longitude 0° ... Last equinox on March 20th, 2021, its solar noon occures at 12:07 PM (???)

Congratulations! You have discovered the Equation of Time. Mean solar noon (average of the time the sun crosses the meridian over a year) and apparent solar noon (the actual time the sun crosses the meridian on a given day) drift with respect to each other by up to almost twenty minutes through the year due to the tilt of earth's equator with respect to the plane of earth's orbit and, to a lesser degree, because the earth's orbit is elliptical, not perfectly circular.

If you don't like Wikipedia, google that term. There are tons of other references.

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Please tell me, what's wrong with your solar table?

Nothing. Thanks for asking.

Quote
And why do you keep saying "globe model works fine" ?

Because it does.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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Danang

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Re: Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2021, 08:20:25 AM »
<link, no description, no comment>

What's at that link? Why should anyone visit it?
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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Mikey T.

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Re: Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2021, 11:07:03 AM »
<link, no description, no comment>

What's at that link? Why should anyone visit it?
Just some BS video he posted to Twitter, I didn't watch it though, I don't have time right now for fantasy world.  Maybe later.

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Danang

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Re: Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2021, 05:31:18 AM »
You cannot copypaste the words to google translate.  ;D ;D ;D
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Danang

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Re: Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2021, 05:33:12 AM »
Keep calm, and...

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Mikey T.

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Re: Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2021, 11:02:45 AM »
So we are just full on shit posting now huh

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Danang

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Re: Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2021, 03:39:27 PM »
Congratulations! You have discovered the Equation of Time. Mean solar noon (average of the time the sun crosses the meridian over a year) and apparent solar noon (the actual time the sun crosses the meridian on a given day) drift with respect to each other by up to almost twenty minutes through the year due to the tilt of earth's equator with respect to the plane of earth's orbit and, to a lesser degree, because the earth's orbit is elliptical, not perfectly circular.

Which equation is it? I frequently had difficulty of language while I was doing other things. (Focus problem).
I only forgot that the duration of a day  is not really exact 24 hours.

But I might (not sure) have discovered the killer proof of PHEW FE in the subject of SUN'S CHANGING SPEED.

For the sun, the more distant of radius from the celestial south pole, the faster the sun will go.

There is duration difference between sunrise to solar noon vs solar noon to sunset -- dependeng on the occurrence times. Such data has PHEW FE pattern, not globe's, not even conventional FE's which has reverse model.

For details, I have posted a blog:

https://gwebanget.home.blog/2021/05/13/killer-proof-of-south-polar-centered-flat-earth/

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Since the center of the sun’s revolution is at celestial South Pole, from winter solstice to summer solstice the sun’s speed increases, while from summer solstice to winter solstice the sun’s speed decreases.

Let’s check out the trend before and after both solstices in Pontianak, Indonesia which is situated on equator. i.e.

November, 2020

January, 2021

May, 2021

July, 2021

all apply on the day 22nd

On January and May, the sun’s speed increases, which means the duration between sunrise and solar noon is longer than the duration between solar noon and sunset

On July and November, the sun’s speed decreases, which means the duration between sunrise and solar noon is shorter than the duration between solar noon and sunset

Note:

• Since the ‘second’ marks don’t appear, the duration on July is not read as it is. Still, the sun on July undergoes decreasing of speed.

• The 3 typings from upper to under: time of solar noon, the duration from sunrise to solar noon , the duration from solar noon to sunset




« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 03:45:17 PM by Danang »
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JackBlack

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Re: Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2021, 04:09:20 PM »
Which equation is it? I frequently had difficulty of language while I was doing other things. (Focus problem).
The equation of time.
As Earth is not stationary, the duration of a day is not simply based upon its rotation. Instead after it completes one full rotation, it has moved along in its orbit, and thus the same point is not facing the sun. Instead it needs to rotate just a little bit more.
As Earth's orbit is not a perfect circle, this causes the time required to change.
And as Earth is rotating at an angle to the orbit, it will also vary through the year due to this axial tilt as the sun's apparent speed about an axis parallel to Earth's will vary due to the tilt.

This also means it isn't a simple yearly cycle, but has an additional, offset term.
And in fact, that offset due to the axial tilt is more significant than the term due to the elliptical orbit, such that at either solstice, the length of the day (i.e. the time between 2 solar noons, not the daylight hours of a day) is long, and at each equinox the length of the day is short.
However it is still an additive effect, with the solstice near perihelion have the longest day, and the equinox near aphelion having the shortest.

So no, it doesn't support you delusional nonsense.
Especially as you have no justification for why the sun's speed should depend on its distance to the south pole, especially with it going faster the further out it is.
If you said it was going slower, and significantly slower the further out it is, that would make sense. But going faster doesn't (unless you were referring to linear speed rather than angular speed).

On January and May, the sun’s speed increases, which means the duration between sunrise and solar noon is longer than the duration between solar noon and sunset
No, that is pure nonsense.
If the sun is faster, that means the duration between 2 consecutive solar noons will decrease. Forget about the time between sunrise and noon and sunset, and just focus on the period between 2 consecutive solar noons.
You also need to look at the entire year, not just the solstice.

If we look at November, we see that the time of solar noon drifts, going from 11:26 at the start to 11:31 and the end. This shows the relative speed of the sun is slower than the 24 hour average.
We can see this still in January, where it is even more dramatic, going from 11:46 to 11:56.
This is because it is close to perihelion and the solstice.

In May it is more complex, starting at 11:39, going to 11:38, then back to 11:39 and on to 11:40.
In July it is simpler, starting at 11:46 and going to 11:49.

This all indicate the sun is going slow.

In neither of these cases is the sun apparently going fast.

So where in the year does it?
The equinox.
If we look at March, we see solar noon starts at 11:54, but by the end of march it has gone back to 11:46, indicating the relative speed of the sun is fast.
If we look at September, we see it go from 11:42 to 11:32.

Again, the RE model explains this quite well, and thus the varying time of solar noon throughout the year is quite good evidence for the RE model.

Your FE nonsense can't explain it at all.

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Danang

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Re: Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2021, 07:37:50 AM »
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JackBlack

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Re: Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2021, 03:15:29 PM »
I take it that means you accept defeat?

You accept that the variations in the length of a day (defined as the period between 2 consecutive solar noons) matches what is expected for a RE and the FE has no explanation for it at all?

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Danang

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Re: Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2021, 05:16:09 PM »
Not yet.
I wish I could give Jack one more point.

But there is something to unlock:

Why there is irregularity of sun's speed within, say, a month?

Does the sun race with up and down speeds?
Or the table is just made up. :o
We"ve heard complaints about what is stated in timeanddate.com, e.g. the position of the sun. In reality people see the sun's position differently from that website's

Back to Phew FE.
July's sun reality is not necessarily for the globe model due to said irregularity of sun speed.

It might take quite a long time to figure out what is going on. Maybe I'll get back to research more detailly after completing our talk with president Putin  ;D ;D ;D


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Mikey T.

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Re: Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2021, 08:28:11 PM »

Why there is irregularity of sun's speed within, say, a month?


Easy, there isn't.

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JackBlack

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Re: Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2021, 02:11:02 PM »
Not yet.
I wish I could give Jack one more point.
It isn't me, it is the RE model and basic geometry.

Why there is irregularity of sun's speed within, say, a month?
It is a continum.
The sun doesn't just instantly jump speeds and then stay constant for a month.

Again, this is addressed in the equation of time:
Here is a horrible jpeg (rather than png or svg) of it:


In reality people see the sun's position differently from that website's
I have heard plenty of claims of that, but nothing to substantiate it.

It might take quite a long time to figure out what is going on.
So you take the path of wilful ignorance instead of a model which can actually explain it which is backed up by mountains of evidence?
And that is after coming here with this as if it refuted that model.

Why not just be rational for once and accept that the RE model explains it?

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Danang

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Re: Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2021, 07:28:02 PM »
You even didn't mention the place of the data.

There could be different realities of sun speeds. As to Pontianak's sun reality, it is diametrically against Svalbard's on the same day, i.e. september equinox.

Pontianak's sun speeds up, Svalbard's sun speeds down.



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Stash

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Re: Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2021, 07:39:25 PM »
You even didn't mention the place of the data.

There could be different realities of sun speeds. As to Pontianak's sun reality, it is diametrically against Svalbard's on the same day, i.e. september equinox.

Pontianak's sun speeds up, Svalbard's sun speeds down.



According to your charts:

- Pontianak's sunrise to sunset is logged at 17 hours & 7 minutes
- Svalbard's sunrise to sunset is logged at 17 hours & 23 minutes

What's the issue here?

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Danang

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Re: Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2021, 08:01:18 PM »
Globe gets debunked.

For globe model, the sun speed should be neatly:

Increasing from December to March
Decreasing from March to June
Increasing from June to September
Decreasing from September to December

Nothing of the data indicates such a pattern, even the data is provenly wrong.
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Danang

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Re: Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2021, 08:06:59 PM »
You even didn't mention the place of the data.

There could be different realities of sun speeds. As to Pontianak's sun reality, it is diametrically against Svalbard's on the same day, i.e. september equinox.

Pontianak's sun speeds up, Svalbard's sun speeds down.



According to your charts:

- Pontianak's sunrise to sunset is logged at 17 hours & 7 minutes
- Svalbard's sunrise to sunset is logged at 17 hours & 23 minutes

What's the issue here?

Duration from rise to meridian
vs
Duration fom meridian to set

Which one is longer, which one is quicker?

e.g. Pontianak: 6 hours 4 minutes vs 6 hours 3 minutes. The sun speed increases.
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JackBlack

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Re: Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2021, 09:17:29 PM »
You even didn't mention the place of the data.

There could be different realities of sun speeds. As to Pontianak's sun reality, it is diametrically against Svalbard's on the same day, i.e. september equinox.

Pontianak's sun speeds up, Svalbard's sun speeds down.
Try providing data to actually try to show that.
All that graph shows is the angle of elevation and the time of sunrise and sunset.
We see that at Pontianak, the daylight hours go from 5:31 to 17:38, which is 12 hours and 7 minutes. This is expected due to how close to the equator it is.
Note that the sun illuminates MORE than 50% of Earth, due to how large it is, and refraction makes it appear earlier and disappear later.
Places further away from the equator get more daylight hours than those closer to the equator.
The extreme examples are the poles, which even on the equinox still have daytime. The sun sets after the equinox for them.
So Svalbard, having 12 hours and 23 minutes is expected.

The sun isn't going slower or faster. It is simply being above the horizon for different lengths of time.

What is even more nonsensical about your claim is that it is the same sun. Or are you now going to suggest there are 2 independent suns travelling at different speeds?

If you want to look at the actual speed of the sun, rather than just how long it is above the horizon for, look at the time between solar noon on different days.
We see that in Indonesia, it is at 11:34 on the equinox.
At the start of the month it is 11:42. At the end it is 11:32.
So that shows that solar noon is arriving Earlier, and thus the apparent speed of the sun is faster.
Importantly, there is a difference of 10 minutes across the month, and 2 minutes from the equinox to the end of the month.

For Svalbard, I don't know what location you picked as it is a state. So I will just use Longyearbyen.
It's times are 1 minute behind those that you used.
Solar Noon on the equinox is 12:49.  At the start of the month it is 12:57 and at the end it is 12:47.

So both locations have solar noon drift by 10 minutes, with the solstice being 2 minutes later than the end of the month.

So no, the sun is not going at different speeds.

Globe gets debunked.
No, your lies about it do.

For globe model, the sun speed should be neatly:
Increasing from December to March
Decreasing from March to June
Increasing from June to September
Decreasing from September to December
Why?
There are 2 main effects, the axial tilt and the eccentricity of the orbit, and the axial tilt is the dominant effect.

For axial tilt we have the solstice around December 21st and June 21st.
This is the period where the apparent motion of the sun along the ecliptic is parallel to Earth's rotation. This means that the sun's motion relative to the equator, ignoring the rotation of Earth, is fastest, and thus the speed of its relative motion when we don't ignore the rotation is the slowest. i.e. solar noon will occur later and later during these times.

Then we have the equinoxes, around March 21st and September 21st.
This is where the sun is travelling at the greatest inclination along the ecliptic. This means the component of its motion parallel to the equator is smallest.
This means the relative motion ignoring the rotation is smallest, and thus when you include the rotation it is the largest.
This means that solar noon will occur earlier and earlier each day during these times.

Then on top of that we have the smaller contribution from the eccentricity of the orbit.
Near Jan 4 we have perihelion. This is where Earth is travelling fastest in its orbit and thus the sun will appear to go fastest relative to Earth ignoring the rotation, and thus when you don't ignore the rotation, the sun will appear to go slowest at this time.
Then near July 4 we have aphelion, where Earth is furthest from the sun and travelling the slowest, making solar noons earlier.

This matches what is observed.

You are not even close to debunking the globe.

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Danang

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Re: Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2021, 06:42:34 PM »
Wow a lot of words by Jack with no meaning!
Actually by history, Copernicus introduced the solar system 'theory' without research. 

Let's take a break

https://mobile.twitter.com/maman1965/status/1398662470542102530
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JackBlack

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Re: Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2021, 08:59:23 PM »
Wow a lot of words by Jack with no meaning!
You mean a lot of words you do have any rebuttal to?

Again, the RE model explains what is observed quite well.
Do you have anything like that for your FE?

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Danang

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Re: Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2021, 02:14:42 AM »
Many. E.g. in tides, Breathing Earth theory is much more logical than globe's.

Retrogate motion of planets confuses scientists since Greek era. Solar system has default flaw.

https://mobile.twitter.com/midiahn/status/1398226407210119169
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Danang

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Re: Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2021, 02:18:40 AM »
Who is he?

« Last Edit: June 01, 2021, 02:24:40 AM by Danang »
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JackBlack

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Re: Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2021, 03:55:19 AM »
Many. E.g. in tides
How about we stick to the sun for now, at least for this thread.

Do you accept that the globe explains what happens just fine?

Re: Globe's Solar Table is Wrong: Greenwitch Case
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2021, 12:43:51 PM »
Anyone here ever take some hits of pot and then go on a whack web site to troll people? Some might find that enjoyable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

What are the odds? I gave it 50/50 until the smoking snake pic, now 99/1.

Either way, Danang will not be educated nor change his mind. All he will ever do is repeat the same stuff.
Is it possible for something to be both true and unproven?

Are things that are true and proven any different from things that are true but not proven?