Are lockdowns justified?

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FlatAssembler

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Are lockdowns justified?
« on: March 30, 2021, 01:24:10 PM »
So, as some of you probably know, I think government-mandated lockdowns are not justified. Here is why:

1) How do you test scientifically that they actually prevent the spread of COVID? Like, how do you make an actual scientific study about it, with a meaningful p-value? Mechanicistic evidence is not meaningful here, because whether or not lockdowns work is a matter of how people actually respond to it (For example, many people responded to lockdowns by rushing into grocery stores and buying unreasonable quantities of everyday products, arguably contributing to the spread of COVID.). To me it seems like you can make essentially three types of study about it:
a) Do non-controlled experiments, like the famous Delaware study. And any conclusion following from them is, of course, a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. I think it should not be controversial that the Delaware study is seriously flawed. First, they imply that the 88% reduction in deaths between April and July in Delaware is due to the lockdown. However, during the same time period, the deaths with COVID also drastically declined in Sweden.

But Sweden had no lockdown at that time. That strongly suggests the drastic reduction in mortality during that time period in Delaware is mostly not due to lockdown, but due to some other factor. Maybe it is Vitamin D, since Vitamin D deficiency (which appears to drastically increase the incidence and severity of COVID) is lower in summer. Second reason why that Delaware study is flawed is that, as they say, the mortality in Delaware peaked one week after the lockdown began. Though they cite that as evidence the mortality indeed started decreasing because of the lockdown, I'd argue it is evidence of the opposite. In order to die from COVID, you need to have it for around three weeks. So, the reduction in the number of infections had to start around two weeks before the lockdown.
b) Do cross-country comparisons, to see if there is a correlation between the severity of the lockdown and COVID-related deaths. And, of course, the only way to do that is to lump good and policies together, like the Economic Freedom Index is doing. Obviously, any such study is next to meaningless.
c) Compare the real-world data with what the computer models tell you what happens if there is no lockdown. The problem with that is that in science we want to eliminate the human factor as much as possible, and computer models are a huge human factor. Plus, as the academics who write computer models tend to be left-wind and thus pro-lockdown, there is probably also an agenda involved. And even if there is no agenda involved, my experience tells me not to trust computer models on the matters of soft sciences. In my latest paper about linguistics, I describe how I made a 1000-lines-of-code model that predicts phonological evolution of languages... as it turned out, only 16.7% better than chance. So, only slightly better than chance and certainly no better than guessing.
It seems that the claim that lockdowns work against COVID is one of those claims that, while they seem testable at first, are not actually meaningfully testable. Like the claim that circumcision decreases sexual pleasure: how exactly would you do a scientifically valid study about that, one that controls for the placebo effect? If we should have a government in the first place, it should be a government that bases its policies on science.

2) Lockdowns probably have side-effects in the form of damaging mental health (increased suicide, especially among the young) and, caused by that, economic damages. The constant fear-mongering about COVID is, to young people, certainly more harmful than COVID itself is. And it is far more wrong if a policy results in a death of a young and healthy person, who would otherwise live for another 100 years (or by whatever amount of time the human lifetime increases this century), than if it causes a death of somebody who would otherwise live just a few more months. And if people are depressed, the economy cannot work, causing even more deaths. To be fair, it is hard to tell how much effect lockdowns themselves have on mental health and the economy. Obviously, economic damages happen even in countries without a lockdown, as has happened in Sweden. On the other hand, economies of countries are interconnected, and, if the world's economy suffers, Swedish economy will suffer because of that. I think it is hard to deny lockdowns have played a significant negative effect on the economy, even if we do not know exactly how much (compared to just the fear-mongering). The predictions that the economy will return back to normal a few weeks or months after the lockdowns have been implemented world-wide have, as far as I understand it, proven spectacularly wrong.

3) If the studies showing a link between Vitamin D deficiency and COVID mortality are correct, lockdowns are probably counter-productive. Now, this is, as far as I understand it, a very complicated topic. Somewhat similar to the question of whether low-carbohydrate low-protein diets somehow help against epilepsy: many studies show they do, but there is a complete lack of scientific explanation for how they might. I think the most honest position to take here is not to bet on the either side: do not assume that Vitamin D protects against COVID, but do not assume it does not help either. However, implementing lockdowns is basically betting on the association between COVID and Vitamin D deficiency not being true, which does not seem very reasonable.

4) In just about every country, lockdowns are unconstitutional. If we allow the governments to break the law now, they will have more justification for doing so in the future. Government overreach is a serious problem, which can significantly affect the quality of life of those who are young today.

5) Even if we take for granted that properly implemented lockdowns work, there is little relation between what a proper lockdown would be, and what the governments are actually doing. The US government, led by Andrew Cuomo, was putting COVID patients into nursing homes not to overwhelm the hospitals, going wildly against science and undoubtedly leading to even more deaths. The Croatian government organized massive commemorations of the events from the Yugoslav Wars (the commemoration of Vukovar Massacre was attended by around 30000 people) and World War 2, in the middle of the pandemic, which led to a spike of COVID cases.

As for the masks, I also think there are too many unknowns to justify forcing their usage. First of all, is COVID-19 airborn or is it spread only by droplets? If it is airborn, masks that are usually worn have zero effect. But let's take it for granted it is not airborn and can only be spread by droplets. There comes the matter of social sciences. How do people actually act when forced to wear masks? Do they change and wash their masks often enough? Do they touch their face significantly more often when wearing a mask? And so on... It is incredibly hard to investigate scientifically. The most rigorous study about that done thus far, the Danish study, which involved 3000 people, had a statistical-significance-cut-off at 46%. They could not, with the massive funding they had, design a study which could detect effects larger than 46%. Of course, it failed to detect any effect of masks, as they are usually worn, on COVID-19.
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Bullwinkle

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Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2021, 03:00:04 AM »
Every town, city, state and country has tried every different thing to manage the pandemic.
The graphs are all the same.Old people die, young people don't.

Get your vaccination, tah dahhh.




Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2021, 04:53:50 AM »
Lockdowns are justified as far as the current ptb are concerned.

I should mention their concern, as well as the vast majority of contributors on this site (such as scg, breadcrumb, boydster, jd, pez, shifter, jja, junker, jura, rayzor, d1, et.al.) is not the safety, health, and well-being of the world populace.

Each of them are committed to the totalitarian world state and that type of state is much easier to maintain if the population of the world is around 50 million or so.

All of the site mods and admins are firmly committed toward this goal.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2021, 05:36:50 AM by WISHTOLAUGH »

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JJA

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Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2021, 05:41:19 AM »
Lockdowns are justified as far as the current ptb are concerned.

I should mention their concern, as well as the vast majority of contributors on this site (such as scg, breadcrumb, boydster, jd, pez, shifter, jja, junker, jura, rayzor, d1, et.al.) is not the safety, health, and well-being of the world populace.

Each of them are committed to the totalitarian world state and that type of state is much easier to maintain if the population of the world is around 50 million or so.

All of the site mods and admins are firmly committed toward this goal.

Well.  Feel free to spout your anti-vax conspiracy theory loaded delusional fantasies.

Yes... wearing a mask is how one controls the world from their evil volcano lair.  Someone call James Bond!

You're certified. Really.

Asking us to wear masks, that SAVE peoples lives is how they are going to reduce the population?  What drugs are you on, or not taking?


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Jamie

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Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2021, 06:02:08 AM »
3) If the studies showing a link between Vitamin D deficiency and COVID mortality are correct, lockdowns are probably counter-productive. Now, this is, as far as I understand it, a very complicated topic. Somewhat similar to the question of whether low-carbohydrate low-protein diets somehow help against epilepsy: many studies show they do, but there is a complete lack of scientific explanation for how they might. I think the most honest position to take here is not to bet on the either side: do not assume that Vitamin D protects against COVID, but do not assume it does not help either. However, implementing lockdowns is basically betting on the association between COVID and Vitamin D deficiency not being true, which does not seem very reasonable.

This has been a point of interest for me: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33365326/.
"Conspiracy theorists actually believe in the conspiracy because that is more comforting." - Alan Moore

Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2021, 10:01:38 AM »
Lockdowns are justified as far as the current ptb are concerned.

I should mention their concern, as well as the vast majority of contributors on this site (such as scg, breadcrumb, boydster, jd, pez, shifter, jja, junker, jura, rayzor, d1, et.al.) is not the safety, health, and well-being of the world populace.

Each of them are committed to the totalitarian world state and that type of state is much easier to maintain if the population of the world is around 50 million or so.

All of the site mods and admins are firmly committed toward this goal.

Well.  Feel free to spout your anti-vax conspiracy theory loaded delusional fantasies.

Yes... wearing a mask is how one controls the world from their evil volcano lair.  Someone call James Bond!

You're certified. Really.

Asking us to wear masks, that SAVE peoples lives is how they are going to reduce the population?  What drugs are you on, or not taking?
I am not antivaxx, you stupid shitbag.

This thread is about lockdowns, you fuckface, not masks.

STFU.

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JJA

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Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2021, 10:11:37 AM »
Lockdowns are justified as far as the current ptb are concerned.

I should mention their concern, as well as the vast majority of contributors on this site (such as scg, breadcrumb, boydster, jd, pez, shifter, jja, junker, jura, rayzor, d1, et.al.) is not the safety, health, and well-being of the world populace.

Each of them are committed to the totalitarian world state and that type of state is much easier to maintain if the population of the world is around 50 million or so.

All of the site mods and admins are firmly committed toward this goal.

Well.  Feel free to spout your anti-vax conspiracy theory loaded delusional fantasies.

Yes... wearing a mask is how one controls the world from their evil volcano lair.  Someone call James Bond!

You're certified. Really.

Asking us to wear masks, that SAVE peoples lives is how they are going to reduce the population?  What drugs are you on, or not taking?
I am not antivaxx, you stupid shitbag.

This thread is about lockdowns, you fuckface, not masks.

STFU.

You screaming about "this thread isn't about that" doesn't work well as a rebuttal.  Learn to debate.

You are not anti-vax?  Are you going to get your COVID shot then?  You think vaccines are safe and don't cause autism?  Good for you, I take back some of the things I said about you.

You're still anti-mask thought, which means I stand by the rest of the things I've said.  Why  do you hate masks?  Because you can't stand helping people?

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Jamie

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Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2021, 10:33:47 AM »
The hang up on masks is just so strange to me. So what if they aren't that effective?

If they block even 20% of the virus particles, and if everyone wears one, that's 20% less transmissions, if my math is right. That's 80k people instead of 100k people. 20k people is a lot of people.

It's a very simple, easy thing we can do to radically lower the numbers of people who get sick and reduce the burden on our healthcare infrastructure and workers, like doctors and nurses and the janitors and so on.
"Conspiracy theorists actually believe in the conspiracy because that is more comforting." - Alan Moore

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Pezevenk

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Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2021, 11:45:10 AM »
Yeah they're totally ineffective, that is why Australia, New Zealand and China are effectively COVID free  ::)

That is also why Greece went through the first wave basically unscathed but got wrecked by the second wave when the lockdown came wayyy too late (a wave which started during the late summer/early autumn, when sunlight exposure levels should be at their peak).
« Last Edit: April 01, 2021, 11:48:24 AM by Pezevenk »
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2021, 11:51:30 AM »
Lockdowns are justified as far as the current ptb are concerned.

I should mention their concern, as well as the vast majority of contributors on this site (such as scg, breadcrumb, boydster, jd, pez, shifter, jja, junker, jura, rayzor, d1, et.al.) is not the safety, health, and well-being of the world populace.

Each of them are committed to the totalitarian world state and that type of state is much easier to maintain if the population of the world is around 50 million or so.

All of the site mods and admins are firmly committed toward this goal.

Yes, I am committed to world domination. I will achieve this by supporting simple things like wearing a mask. Soon I will rule the entire flat earth.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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JJA

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Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2021, 11:54:15 AM »
The hang up on masks is just so strange to me. So what if they aren't that effective?

If they block even 20% of the virus particles, and if everyone wears one, that's 20% less transmissions, if my math is right. That's 80k people instead of 100k people. 20k people is a lot of people.

It's a very simple, easy thing we can do to radically lower the numbers of people who get sick and reduce the burden on our healthcare infrastructure and workers, like doctors and nurses and the janitors and so on.

It doesn't matter how effective masks are to these people.

They just seem to have some sort of pathological disgust when it comes to helping other people.

It's like... when faced with a situation they first think, 'how can I use this to my advantage' and then secondly think 'how can I make other peoples lives worse' and pick whatever option does both.

I had a right wing friend tell me he enjoyed seeing disasters happen to other countries because it helped America. This is the attitude we are dealing with.

Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2021, 12:20:01 PM »
I am not anti mask, either.

Do you.

I will do me.

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JJA

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Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2021, 01:02:19 PM »
I am not anti mask, either.

Do you.

I will do me.

Funny, you complain and bitch about masks a lot for not being anti-mask.

So nice that you agree that we all should have been wearing masks, we should all get our vaccine shots.

So... you're just anti-social distancing now?  You agree with everything else but the lockdown is all horrible and terrible?

I still haven't actually heard you SAY that vaccines are good and we should all take them, and that masks prevent the spread of COVID and we should all wear them.  Mind clearing that part up for me?

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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2021, 01:12:36 PM »
I spent about three hours in town today, had to go to about 4 different stores, I was happily surprised to see everyone wearing masks. In Florida this is all by choice, and even though this is Floriduh, most people seem to be taking all this seriously. Maybe there is hope for us.

I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Crouton

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Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2021, 01:19:49 PM »
States are one thing.  Companies are another.  Here they're going to lift the mask mandate 9 days from now.  But most retail stores will still require masks.
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Space Cowgirl

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Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2021, 03:17:12 PM »
States are one thing.  Companies are another.  Here they're going to lift the mask mandate 9 days from now.  But most retail stores will still require masks.

I saw something on a news show about how Utah is kicking ass with the vaccines.
I'm sorry. Am I to understand that when you have a boner you like to imagine punching the shit out of Tom Bishop? That's disgusting.

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Pezevenk

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Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2021, 02:48:29 AM »
I will do me.

Gross but not unexpected.
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Jamie

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Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2021, 05:35:19 AM »
I will do me.

Only if I get to watch.
"Conspiracy theorists actually believe in the conspiracy because that is more comforting." - Alan Moore

Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2021, 07:53:10 AM »
I will do me.

Only if I get to watch.
I'm sure you don't really want that.
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Jamie

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Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2021, 08:38:04 AM »
I'm sure you don't really want that.

Think of it like morbid curiosity: You're disgusted but also fascinated, and you can't look away.
"Conspiracy theorists actually believe in the conspiracy because that is more comforting." - Alan Moore

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markjo

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Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2021, 08:51:32 AM »
I'm sure you don't really want that.

Think of it like morbid curiosity: You're disgusted but also fascinated, and you can't look away.
And you can never unsee it.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2021, 02:25:40 PM »
Lockdown because 48% of the population doesnt believe in masking up.
Its all your fault.

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Wolvaccine

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Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2021, 02:39:52 PM »
Australia vs America

Look at those statistics and you have your answer

Also

Because we did them early on, many cities enjoy covid free life without a lock down now. I ived 2020 business as usual without the fear of catching covid because we managed it well whenever a case in the country popped up (from overseas arrivals and quarantine).

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Jamie

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Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2021, 05:20:58 AM »
Lockdown because 48% of the population doesnt believe in masking up.
Its all your fault.

If the average IQ is 100, and if half of all people are dumber than that, then most of them are probably American.
"Conspiracy theorists actually believe in the conspiracy because that is more comforting." - Alan Moore

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markjo

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Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2021, 05:44:03 PM »
If the average IQ is 100, and if half of all people are dumber than that...
*sigh* No, that isn't what average means.
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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JJA

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Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2021, 06:56:45 PM »
It's important to understand what the IQ test result means.

Your IQ simply is a number that compares you to others of your own age that took the test.

So getting an IQ result of 100 literally means you are average.

Because 100 is defined as the median then by definition half will be over and half will be under.

Still funny to say it, but they defined the IQ number so half the people will always be under it. :)

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markjo

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Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #26 on: April 03, 2021, 07:16:38 PM »
So getting an IQ result of 100 literally means you are average.

Because 100 is defined as the median then by definition half will be over and half will be under.
Average != median
https://www.wyzant.com/resources/answers/210125/determine_the_mean_median_mode_and_midrange_of_the_set_of_data
Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.
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Besides, perhaps FET is a conspiracy too.
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Pezevenk

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Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2021, 01:19:13 AM »
If the average IQ is 100, and if half of all people are dumber than that...
*sigh* No, that isn't what average means.
That is what it means when it comes to IQ.
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Pezevenk

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Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2021, 01:21:33 AM »
So getting an IQ result of 100 literally means you are average.

Because 100 is defined as the median then by definition half will be over and half will be under.
Average != median
https://www.wyzant.com/resources/answers/210125/determine_the_mean_median_mode_and_midrange_of_the_set_of_data

"Average" usually means mean, but it is not a well defined term. It can mean mean, or median, or mode, or geometric mean, or whatever according to the context. IQ is a scale designed so that the median will be 100.
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It is not a scientific fact, it is a scientific fuck!
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Read a bit psicology and stick your imo to where it comes from
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Re: Are lockdowns justified?
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2021, 02:45:02 AM »
IQ is a scale designed so that the median will be 100.
And the mean and mode - it's modelled round a perfect normal distribution.
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